As we recover from an ‘80s/’90s-style Super Bowl blowout, here are some random thoughts:
“It’s Not Business. It’s Personal.” – Considering how much time that this blog has analyzed objective measures for conference realignment (including the Big 12 Expansion Index late last year), it’s always fun to see how expansion decisions aren’t necessarily always performed using financial analysts and lawyers poring over reams of data and documents. Dennis Dodd told the tale this week of how TCU ended up in the Big 12 during the chaotic realignment days of Fall 2011:
[TCU AD Chris] Del Conte admitted, “the pressure of the entire institution was on my shoulders” to join the Big 12. He worked the phones, calling every Big 12 contact he knew. Support within the Big 12 was growing, including at Oklahoma where good friend Joe Castiglione had been encouraging. But Del Conte knew if he didn’t have Texas, he didn’t have a chance.
“I’ve got one shot,” he recounted, “to go see DeLoss.”
It was a quite a visit. Del Conte grabbed a car, a driver and a bunch of reference material, binders, extolling the advantages of TCU and Fort Worth.
“I get up at 8 o’clock in the morning and drive to Darrell K. Royal Stadium. I get to [Dodds’] office. Nine comes around, 10 comes around. I’ve got a GA [graduate assistant] outside waiting for me, by the way. I tell him, ‘Just wait 10 minutes I’ll be back.’ Pretty soon it’s 3:30.
“[DeLoss] comes out and says, ‘Who are you?’ Chris Del Conte, Texas Christian U. He doesn’t hear ‘Chris.’ he hears ‘Del’. ‘Del, let’s go get ourselves a drink and discuss it.’
“We went to a restaurant and had a little libation at 3:30. By the time 8:30 rolls around, we were [into it] pretty good but we got ourselves in a situation. I kept trying to give him my [binders]. He said, ‘I’ve heard enough, Del’ and just walked away.”
The Big 12 ADs had a conference call the next day.
“The next morning I got up. Joe [Castiglione] goes, ‘I don’t know what you did but it worked.’ We got the vote. The Frogs are in,’ Del Conte said.
I can’t imagine what it must feel like for a Cincinnati or UConn fan whose programs are twisting in the wind when it appears that all it took to get Deloss Dodds to throw the support of the almighty University of Texas behind you was getting him liquored up on tequila shots. Granted, TCU’s addition to the Big 12 wasn’t that simplistic (at least I think so… right?) as it was coming off multiple BCS bowl appearances and a Rose Bowl victory. I had been a champion of TCU long before that when they were still dreaming of just an invite to a then-BCS-level Big East (much less the Big 12). Regardless, it goes to show you that personal relationships still matter beyond the quantitative analysis behind conference realignment. Oliver Luck of West Virginia and Tom Jurich of Louisville were tireless advocates for their respective schools and built up incredible networks of connections that they tapped into when the old Big East was collapsing. Former Rutgers AD Tim Pernetti was critical in getting the school into the Big Ten when the conference was looking for a partner with Maryland. When Creighton got the call to go to the new basketball-focused Big East as opposed to more geographically-friendly and larger market schools like St. Louis and Dayton, it could point to the fact that Creighton’s president happened to be on the Marquette Board of Trustees.
So, it looks like the lesson for any school still trying to get out of the Group of Five ranks is to send booze over to its power conference counterparts early and often on top of all the binders and PowerPoint presentations.
Conference Championship Games the Way We Want Them – John Swofford and the ACC sent the NCAA over a proposal to give leagues more flexibility in determining who can participate in conference championship games. The ACC wants the ability to remove the requirement to have divisions in order to hold a conference championship and let conferences determine how the participants are chosen by any criteria that they’d like, such as simply taking the top two teams with the best conference records and having them face off. Personally, I am all for it and hope that Jim Delany and the Big Ten hop aboard in support of the measure. As much as conference realignment fascinates me and believe that power leagues such as the Big Ten need to constantly be on the lookout for expansion opportunities, the obvious drawback as a fan is witnessing the games and rivalries that I actually care about get reduced. No amount of exposure in New York City or Washington, DC for Illinois is going to replace the excitement of playing Michigan or Ohio State. At the same time, if a school is only playing teams in the other division once out of every 6 years (as the SEC is set up now outside of cross-division rivals), that’s more akin to a non-conference scheduling arrangement as opposed to an actual unified conference. Therefore, if there’s a way to continue to hold conference championship games while eliminating divisions (or at least modifying the rules where teams don’t have to play round-robin schedules within their divisions), that provides a lot more ability for expanded conferences to adopt scheduling policies to play everyone within a league more frequently.
If I was running the Big Ten, I’d use the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) strategy of assigning every school 3 permanent rivals that it will play annually based on geography. That would then leave 6 other games to fill on the 9-game schedule every year. This setup allows each school to play everyone else in the conference 6 times every 10 years (a cycle of 2 years on, 2 years off, 4 years on, 2 years off), which keeps conference unity strong while still integrating the benefits of geographic expansion. Here’s how I’d assign the Big Ten rivalries:
| SCHOOL | RIVAL #1 | RIVAL #2 | RIVAL #3 |
| Illinois | Northwestern | Indiana | Purdue |
| Indiana | Purdue | Illinois | Northwestern |
| Iowa | Nebraska | Wisconsin | Minnesota |
| Maryland | Michigan State | Rutgers | Penn State |
| Michigan | Ohio State | Michigan State | Rutgers |
| Michigan State | Maryland | Michigan | Ohio State |
| Minnesota | Wisconsin | Nebraska | Iowa |
| Nebraska | Iowa | Minnesota | Wisconsin |
| Northwestern | Illinois | Purdue | Indiana |
| Ohio State | Michigan | Penn State | Michigan State |
| Penn State | Rutgers | Ohio State | Maryland |
| Purdue | Indiana | Northwestern | Illinois |
| Rutgers | Penn State | Maryland | Michigan |
| Wisconsin | Minnesota | Iowa | Nebraska |
The top two schools would then advance to the Big Ten Championship Game. Let’s get this done ASAP.
NFL Thursday Night Games – The NFL agreeing to simulcast a portion of its NFL Network Thursday night package on over-the-air CBS has some major implications both in terms of the entertainment industry in general and college football. First, the fact that CBS ended up winning the package despite already having the top-rated Thursday night lineup led by The Big Bang Theory just goes to show you the power of the NFL compared to everything else on television. Initially, I thought that CBS was going to be the least likely to end up with the NFL package as a result of its monster lineup, but it makes a bit more sense as a defensive move. Note that Disney pushed back on the NFL’s request to move Sunday Night Football games from ESPN to ABC back in 2004 because of an extremely strong prime time lineup featuring Desperate Housewives. That SNF package ended up on NBC, which now has such high ratings that it has turned Sunday night from the place where networks would always put their very best shows (as it has historically been the night when the most people will watch TV) to a scheduling triage unit for half of the year until football season is over. CBS likely noted the history of ABC and moved to protect its Thursday night lineup. Now, CBS can show NFL games on Thursday nights for the first 8 weeks of the season (thereby weakening the strong ratings competition of Grey’s Anatomy and Scandal on ABC in the process) and then debut The Big Bang Theory just in time for November sweeps month. This move could have a radical change to how networks schedule on Thursday night (which had turned into the new evening where networks all placed their best shows after SNF ravaged its Sunday night competition).
College football will certainly be affected further as this will draw further exposure away from ESPN’s Thursday night games. Over the past 6 or 7 years, Thursday night had developed into an acceptable time slot for power conference schools to move games to away from Saturday, but that enticement might be eradicated with much stronger over-the-air NFL competition (and it was already getting that way with the NFL Network’s full season Thursday night schedule over the past 2 years). As a result, Thursday night might end up being the purview of non-power conferences again. Also, Friday nights aren’t as attractive to top schools because of conflicts with high school football in many states and lower TV ratings on that evening in general.
At the same time, the NFL’s willingness to move games off of its own network (which has the highest subscriber fees of any national cable network outside of ESPN) shows the tension between maximizing revenue (which would point to maximizing the value of their cable network) and maximizing exposure (going to over-the-air channels or ESPN). The Big Ten should take note as it heads into a period where it may end up renegotiating its TV deals sooner rather than later (as John Ourand of Sports Business Journal has predicted will happen this year). I often get asked about how many more games that the Big Ten will retain for the BTN in its next TV deal and my response is, “Not as many as you think.” As much as the BTN is filling up the Big Ten’s coffers, Jim Delany is smart enough to know that there still needs to be a balance of exposure on entities such as ESPN and over-the-air networks to keep the product viable in the long-term. The BTN is still intended to be a supplement to the widespread coverage as opposed to a replacement – we’re not going to be seeing Michigan-Ohio State on BTN anytime soon. If anything, look for broader distribution for Big Ten games on ABC, ESPN and possibly Fox whenever the conference signs its new TV deals.
Semi-off-topic: City Branding in Columbus – One of my random interests is studying urban development plans and how metro areas can attract investment and transplants, so Urbanophile is one of my favorite blogs to follow these days. Much of the blog’s focus is on Midwestern and Rust Belt cities, so there’s’ a lot of quantitative and qualitative analysis about the economic growth prospects (or in some cases, the lack thereof) of the Big Ten footprint. A recent post dealt with whether Columbus needs better branding in order to attract attention on par with other media-hyped college town/state capital combos such as Austin and Madison or if better job and population growth in and of itself is enough. You’ll see a fairly vigorous discussion in that post, including several comments from me. Anyway, I thought that would be of particular interest to the Ohio State fans reading here and it’s a great place to discuss how many of the other Big Ten markets are doing (which, in turn, impacts the strength of the Big Ten itself will be in the future).
Finally… if there’s a silver lining to the authoritarian, anti-free speech, homophobic and dog killing regime of Vladamir Putin, it’s that it’s going to be really easy to root against Russia in the Olympics again. No one else has really stepped in to fill the U.S. rival role since the Soviet Union fell. (Granted, I’m half-Chinese, so it’s a bit more difficult for me to demonize China as the enemy.) This is as much of a throwback to the 1980s as terrible Super Bowl matchups, so that will certainly add some flavor to the Olympics.
Enjoy the weekend!
(Image from Third City)
Hook ’em
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Go Big Red
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Go Hawks.
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Franklin!
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All the P5 will probably support the ACC proposal for one reason or another.
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They haven’t in the past, at least not publicly.
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now there’s more of an incentive. SEC and B1G getting more flexibility would be a big win, as both leagues have plenty of “annual rivalry” games that no one actually cares about other historical rivalry games that have gotten short shrift. It’d be interesting to see how the Pac-12 comes down on it, since the NW schools would get more LA access and the AZ/CO/UT schools less. I suspect the league would be ultimately neutral on it for the time being, but I definitely could be wrong.
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Matthew Smith,
“now there’s more of an incentive. SEC and B1G getting more flexibility would be a big win, as both leagues have plenty of “annual rivalry” games that no one actually cares about other historical rivalry games that have gotten short shrift.”
I don’t see it that way from the B10’s POV. The current plan is almost ideal from the B10 HQ POV. They kept almost every major rivalry. They get plenty of king/king games. They get a bunch of games with eastern kings playing at the newbies to help in NJ/NYC and DC. A decade from now, maybe the B10 sees less of a need for all the king games at the newbies. Then and only then would they see this change as a potential improvement.
It’s harder to predict what the SEC would want. They have a history of not playing each other very much, but at 14 with an 8 game schedule even they are starting want more frequent games against some other teams. They’d certainly have to lock at least 3 games to keep rivalries going. Maybe Alan or someone can flesh out a plan.
“It’d be interesting to see how the Pac-12 comes down on it, since the NW schools would get more LA access and the AZ/CO/UT schools less. I suspect the league would be ultimately neutral on it for the time being, but I definitely could be wrong.”
They could easily be split close to equally on it.
Would the B12 schools vote for it if it doesn’t also eliminate the 12 team limit?
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Mathew Smith:
“It’d be interesting to see how the Pac-12 comes down on it, since the NW schools would get more LA access and the AZ/CO/UT schools less.”
In order for that the LA schools would need to want to play the NW more and CO/UU/UA/ASU less. And the NW currently play 6 CA games every 2 years, are in CA 3 times every 2 years, and in LA every other. You aren’t breaking up the 4 CA yearly games. They aren’t going back to 8 conf games. I cant see more than four votes max to change (barring further expansion).
Brian tried to explain it to me, but perhaps I’m dense.
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ccrider55,
“In order for that the LA schools would need to want to play the NW more and CO/UU/UA/ASU less.”
OR and UW are by far the 2 biggest P12 brands outside of CA. The NW teams were all part of the P8, unlike the SW teams that are the newbies and the previous newbies. I’d say the LA schools definitely would prefer to play the NW schools at least as much if not more than the SW schools. So yes, they might well approve it. That’s 6 of 12 teams.
“And the NW currently play 6 CA games every 2 years, are in CA 3 times every 2 years, and in LA every other.”
Without divisions, they could play 3 NW games, 3 CA games and 3 SW games every year. That’s in CA 3 times every 2 years and in LA 3 times in 4 years. In other words, no real change except for the CCG.
“You aren’t breaking up the 4 CA yearly games.”
You don’t need to. You can use 3 pods of 4 for scheduling (the equivalent of locking 3 rivals).
“They aren’t going back to 8 conf games.”
That’s a separate discussion from whether or not they’d support the ACC’s plan.
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Ok. That was a plan they looked at when creating divisions, but rejected because of likely confusion for fans. It doesn’t violate the division rule because there isn’t a rule against changing the makeup of the divisions frequently-even yearly. This highlights that the need for scheduling isn’t the reason to abandon the division champs to the CCG rule. It is to decide/select the participants at the end rather than setting the path before the season. We don’t reseed march madness after each round, weekend, or at the final four. Bracket is drawn and you play it out.
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ccrider55,
“Ok. That was a plan they looked at when creating divisions, but rejected because of likely confusion for fans. It doesn’t violate the division rule because there isn’t a rule against changing the makeup of the divisions frequently-even yearly.”
These pods would be for scheduling only and not allow for divisions. It would be just like the way the B10 scheduled for 11 teams, but with 3 locked rivals and 9 games instead of 2 and 8. The pods are the locked rivals (geography works perfectly for the P12 to do this).
Sample year:
CA1 – CA2, CA3, CA4, NW2, NW3, NW4, SW2, SW3, SW4
CA2 – CA1, CA3, CA4, NW1, NW3, NW4, SW1, SW3, SW4
CA3 – CA1, CA2, CA4, NW1, NW2, NW4, SW1, SW2, SW4
CA4 – CA1, CA2, CA3, NW1, NW2, NW2, SW1, SW2, SW3
NW1 – NW2, NW3, NW4, CA2, CA3, CA4, SW2, SW3, SW4
NW2 – NW1, NW3, NW4, CA1, CA3, CA4, SW1, SW3, SW4
NW3 – NW1, NW2, NW4, CA1, CA2, CA4, SW1, SW2, SW4
NW4 – NW1, NW2, NW3, CA1, CA2, CA3, SW1, SW2, SW3
SW1 – SW2, SW3, SW4, CA2, CA3, CA4, NW2, NW3, NW4
SW2 – SW1, SW3, SW4, CA1, CA3, CA4, NW1, NW3, NW4
SW3 – SW1, SW2, SW4, CA1, CA2, CA4, NW1, NW2, NW4
SW4 – SW1, SW2, SW3, CA1, CA2, CA3, NW1, NW2, NW3
Under the current rules they couldn’t play a CCG with this setup, but under the ACC’s plan they could. So they made divisions and then came as close to this scheduling as they could, with geographical divisions and locking all the intra-CA games.
“This highlights that the need for scheduling isn’t the reason to abandon the division champs to the CCG rule.”
How so?
“We don’t reseed march madness after each round, weekend, or at the final four.”
But some pro sports do, not that I see how reseeding is relevant here.
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Would missing one in division opponent be enough to make that work? (Which is something I could see being an amendment to the current rules that could be seen as justifiable for super conferences.)
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ccrider55,
“Would missing one in division opponent be enough to make that work?”
They play 9 games and only have 12 teams, which means they only miss 2 teams. If they want to make 1 of those a division team, what’s the point of having divisions for them? Besides, the 3 pods need to play their neighbors (only the SW pod doesn’t have close ties amongst all the teams).
My system has them playing their 3 locked rivals annually and everyone else 75% of the time (9 = 3*100% + 8*75%). That’s equal LA access for all non-CA schools unlike the current plan.
To try to match my plan with divisions, the teams would still have their local pod locked and then miss 1 division team. But then the NW schools would give up a SF team each year and play the SW schools even more. In addition, even if the schedules could match they’d still be stuck playing divisional champs in the CCG versus the 2 best teams.
“(Which is something I could see being an amendment to the current rules that could be seen as justifiable for super conferences.)”
Again, what’s the point of having divisions if they don’t all play each other? Why wouldn’t they prefer to just eliminate divisions at that point?
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FWIW I’d guess that the LA schools don’t really care majorly about how many games are vs NW compared to AZ/CO/UT. I SUSPECT they slightly prefer the latter group because historically they really haven’t liked going to Corvallis/Pullman (though UO/UW are very big brands currently), but again I really don’t know. I’d presume that the CA schools would demand that they keep the annual games between themselves in any arrangement, with or without divisions, 8 or 9 games. I don’t know if they’d get their way in an 8 game structure, but I’d presume that without divisions, in a 9 game structure, it’d go to pod scheduling (4 NW, 4 CA, 4 Other; play all in your pod and 3/4 of each other pod in any given year) pretty easily.
Of course, in the instance of the ACC plan and pod scheduling, the Pac-12 would presumably just get rid of divisions altogether and go to straight up “two best teams” (or possibly that with a “you can’t play a podmate in CCG” edit). There really isn’t any inherent confusion in that structure. Trying to juggle a true pod schedule structure with a two division look would turn into a big mess in almost any way. The current arrangement is as much as they can reasonably try to balance the two (it basically is a pod schedule structure, except the NW locks into 2 Bay Area and 1 LA opponents each year, and AZ/CO/UT gets the opposite), and I think that’s as much as you CAN balance it in a 2-div structure. Otherwise you have to rotate divisions (dumb) or not play everyone in your division every year (ditto).
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Matthew Smith,
“FWIW I’d guess that the LA schools don’t really care majorly about how many games are vs NW compared to AZ/CO/UT. I SUSPECT they slightly prefer the latter group because historically they really haven’t liked going to Corvallis/Pullman (though UO/UW are very big brands currently), but again I really don’t know.”
Yeah, it’s hard to know for sure. There does seem to be some Pac-8 bias, but on the other hand AZ is good for recruiting. WSU/OrSU versus CO/Utah may be a wash as far as the CA schools are concerned. That’s why I think they might lean towards playing UW and OR as the only other major brands in the conference.
“I’d presume that the CA schools would demand that they keep the annual games between themselves in any arrangement, with or without divisions, 8 or 9 games.”
That’s a given, yes.
“I don’t know if they’d get their way in an 8 game structure, but I’d presume that without divisions, in a 9 game structure, it’d go to pod scheduling (4 NW, 4 CA, 4 Other; play all in your pod and 3/4 of each other pod in any given year) pretty easily.”
Agreed.
“Of course, in the instance of the ACC plan and pod scheduling, the Pac-12 would presumably just get rid of divisions altogether and go to straight up “two best teams” (or possibly that with a “you can’t play a podmate in CCG” edit). There really isn’t any inherent confusion in that structure.”
I agree. There’d be no point to keeping divisions. Just lock 3 games (the pod).
“Trying to juggle a true pod schedule structure with a two division look would turn into a big mess in almost any way. The current arrangement is as much as they can reasonably try to balance the two (it basically is a pod schedule structure, except the NW locks into 2 Bay Area and 1 LA opponents each year, and AZ/CO/UT gets the opposite), and I think that’s as much as you CAN balance it in a 2-div structure. Otherwise you have to rotate divisions (dumb) or not play everyone in your division every year (ditto).”
Agreed, any talk of pod scheduling assumes they are dropping divisions.
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Go Blue!
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Coincidence that Illinois has three of the weakest schools by football tradition as rivals according to the Tank Plan? I think not. What’s interesting is that this year’s B1G conference sheds are the converse of this: Nebraska plays Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota only once in men’s play. Stupid.
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Frank, your rivalries: Ugh.
You don’t protect the LBJ or Illibuck and tie UM to RU for some reason. You also don’t protect the IU-MSU trophy game.
My permanents:
Illinois: Northwestern OSU Purdue
Indiana: Purdue Maryland MSU
Iowa: Nebraska Wisconsin Minnesota
Maryland: Rutgers Penn State Indiana
Michigan: Ohio State Michigan State Minnesota
MSU: Michigan Northwestern Indiana
Minnesota: Wisconsin Michigan Iowa
Nebraska: Iowa Wisconsin Northwestern
Northwestern: Illinois MSU Nebraska
Ohio State: Michigan Penn State Illinois
Penn State: Rutgers Ohio State Maryland
Purdue: Indiana Illinois Rutgers
Rutgers: Penn State Maryland Purdue
Wisconsin: Minnesota Iowa Nebraska
MSU wants to visit Chicagoland often. I preserve the LBJ and Illibuck rivalries as well as the budding NU-NU rivalry. UNL wants to visit Chicago often as well, I’m sure.
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Also, this way, the maximum number of 8 non-kings get 1 annual series with a king. The IN schools get to advertise their school to prospective students on the East Coast.
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I think it would probably be preferable to have a 3-5-5 setup. 3 teams every year, 5 8 out of 10 and 5 4 out of 10. You see everyone, while keeping a lot of familiarity with 8 of the 13 other teams. That also allows you to make sure everyone gets enough of the 4 kings. Everyone would get at least 2 of the 4 kings 8 out of 10 years. They end up with a king from 24-28 times out of 10 years (for example in Frank’s 3 rivals grouping-Rutgers and Michigan St. would be at 28 getting 2 every year and the others 4 out of 10), so they all get one on the home schedule every year.
Not as “fair” as spreading it evenly, but it serves scheduling purposes better.
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To me, the demarcations are at 100%, 50% of a time (visit a school once in 4 years), and 25% (play a school once in 4 years). Maybe 2/3rds of the time as well (the least often you can play a series and still consider it a real rivalry series.
There’s not much difference between playing a school 60% of the time and 50% of the time, but a big difference between playing a school 50% of the time and 40% of the time.
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So you could go 3-2-4 to get kings on everyone’s schedule, or you could just go 4-5.
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You could do 3 every year, 5 7 out of 10 and 5 5 out of 10. Everyone can get 26 or 27 games in 10 years against the kings if you don’t give MSU and Rutgers two every year series. Only Ohio St. would get two kings every year.
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Can you run this in a hypothetical 10-game conference schedule?
Do you do 4-6, or keep 3 protected rivalries and rotate the 7 in some manner?
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You could do 3 10 times, 10 7 times out of 10.
Or 3 10, 5 8 and 5 6.
Or 4 10 3 8 and 6 6
Or you could simply do divisions and play 6 every year and the rest 4 out of 7 years.
If you go to 10 conference games, the issue mostly goes away.
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MSU wants to visit Chicagoland often.
MSU wants to visit Chicago for the same reason everybody does. There is no reason to give MSU greater access to the Northwestern market that most of the the other teams don’t get.
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MSU has NU as their second-most important series.
From what I understand, no other school besides Illinois has NU as their most or second-most important series.
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MSU has NU as their second-most important series.
From what I understand, no other school besides Illinois has NU as their most or second-most important series.
NU is MSU’s fourth most-played rivalry in the Big Ten, behind Michigan, Purdue and Indiana. But the difference between #4 and #8 on the list is very slight. Basically, there’s a cluster of schools that MSU has played with roughly equal frequency, and NU is one of those schools.
MSU is NU’s ninth most frequently-played series, behind all of the league’s original programs. They have no unique history with MSU whatsoever. The two schools had only three meetings in football, before MSU joined the Big Ten and started playing everybody more-or-less equally (other than Michigan, of course).
What makes MSU unusual, is that other than Michigan they have no specific rivalries, other than the totally fabricated PSU rivalry. So if the Big Ten decides to lock multiple games, they’ll selfishly raise their hands, and say, “We’ll take Chicago.” But the importance to them is the same as the importance to everyone: to recruit that market.
The only difference is that the other schools have other rivalries that they want to accommodate, and MSU doesn’t. It’s more about what MSU lacks (another natural rival besides Michigan), not what they have (any actual rivalry with NU).
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Indeed, Marc, but the B10 gives each school’s ordered priorities the same weight. UM’s 2nd most important series is the same import as MSU’s 2nd most important series.
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Indeed, Marc, but the B10 gives each school’s ordered priorities the same weight.
There’s no precedent for locking three rivalries per school, and when they locked two, MSU-NU was not one of them.
I strongly suspect they’d go to an unequal number of locked rivalries per team (as they have done now with IU-PU), rather than an equal number that creates contrived imbalances.
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My other point, is that while playing NU annually is highly valued by the Spartans, that interest is not reciprocated. This is unlike the usual rivalry, where both schools want the match-up.
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“There’s no precedent for locking three rivalries per school”
There was no precedent for a championship game . . .until it happened.
There was no precedent for expanding to 14 . . .until it happened.
“I strongly suspect they’d go to an unequal number of locked rivalries per team (as they have done now with IU-PU), rather than an equal number that creates contrived imbalances.”
I highly doubt that. Back in the 11-school era, the B10 set up the contrived rivalry of NU-PU despite that not being considered a rivalry for either school and didn’t lock the LBJ and Illibuck games despite those being rivalry games simply so that each school had 2 locked foes.
IU-PU gets a special arrangement this time around because there was simply no way to split the B10 between East and West without splitting up either IU-PU or UM-MSU, and those series obviously have to be annual.
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Actually like these rivalries. But NU and Purdue seem to be linked (they were permanent rivals when the B1G was 11 teams.
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That was for consistency. All schools had to have 2 annual series then, and Northwestern and PU linked with each other because all the other schools had already been taken up.
There is no rivalry between NU and PU.
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I didn’t know the reasons for it, and I never said they were actually rivals, only that the PTB had linked them.
I wouldn’t be shocked if Northwestern requested a protected game vs. Rutgers to gain annual exposure to the NYC area (which, using your rivalry list, would merely be a swap between NU and Purdue, Purdue getting MSU, NU getting Rutgers).
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I like this better than Frank’s. I served on the OSU faculty for 35 years. The Illibuck is important. Keep it. Michigan and Penn State are musts.
I did my graduate work at Purdue. Indiana is a must, and I like Rutgers very much. I interviewed for a job there.
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Illinois – Northwestern, Ohio State, Purdue
Indiana – Purdue, Sparty, Northwestern
Iowa – Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin
Maryland – PSU, Rutgers, Purdue
TSUN – Ohio State, Sparty, Minnesota
Sparty – TSUN, Indiana, Rutgers
Minnesota – Wisconsin, Iowa, TSUN
Nebraska – Iowa, Wisconsin, Northwestern
Northwestern – Illinois, Indiana, Nebraska
Ohio State – TSUN, Illinois, PSU
PSU – Ohio State, Rutgers, Maryland
Purdue – Indiana, Illinois, Maryland
Rutgers – PSU, Maryland, Sparty
Wisconsin – Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska
Trophy games protected:
Land of Lincoln (IL-NW), Illibuck (IL-OSU), Purdue Cannon (IL-PU), Old Brass Spittoon (IN-MI), Old Oaken Bucket (IN-PU), Floyd of Rosedale (IA-MN), Heroes Trophy (IA-UNL), Heartland Trophy (IA-WI), Paul Bunyan Trophy (MI-MSU), Little Brown Jug (MI-MN), Paul Bunyan’s Axe (MN-WI) plus The Game (no trophy)
Trophy games lost:
Land Grant (MSU-PSU), Governor’s Victory Bell (MN-PSU)
Ironically I really wanted to make the Ohio State-PSU game go away but
but it was hard to do without disrupting other rivalries.
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Scarlet_Lutefisk,
“Illinois – Northwestern, Ohio State, Purdue
Indiana – Purdue, Sparty, Northwestern
Iowa – Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin
Maryland – PSU, Rutgers, Purdue
TSUN – Ohio State, Sparty, Minnesota
Sparty – TSUN, Indiana, Rutgers
Minnesota – Wisconsin, Iowa, TSUN
Nebraska – Iowa, Wisconsin, Northwestern
Northwestern – Illinois, Indiana, Nebraska
Ohio State – TSUN, Illinois, PSU
PSU – Ohio State, Rutgers, Maryland
Purdue – Indiana, Illinois, Maryland
Rutgers – PSU, Maryland, Sparty
Wisconsin – Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska”
I just don’t see that happening. Traditionalists love to preserve the LBJ, but I think NE/MN is more important in today’s world. I think the B10 would go with the quadrangle of hate out west. Beyond that, your plan doesn’t focus on bringing the big brands to NYC and DC which the B10 has said is a priority. There are also some really odd games locked in there.
My guess:
NE – WI, IA, MN
WI – NE, IA, MN
IA – NE, WI, MN
MN – NE, WI, IA
IL – NW, PU, IN
NW – IL, MSU, PU
IN – PU, MSU, IL
PU – IN, IL, NW
OSU – MI, PSU, UMD
MI – OSU, MSU, RU
MSU – MI, NW, IN
PSU – UMD, RU, OSU
UMD – PSU, RU, OSU
RU – PSU, UMD, MI
My personal preference:
NE – WI, IA, PSU
WI – NE, IA, MN
IA – NE, WI, MN
MN – WI, IA, MI
IL – NW, OSU, PU
NW – IL, MSU, RU
IN – PU, MSU, OSU
PU – IN, IL, UMD
OSU – MI, IL, IN
MI – OSU, MSU, MN
MSU – MI, NW, IN
PSU – UMD, RU, NE
UMD – PSU, RU, PU
RU – PSU, UMD, NW
“Ironically I really wanted to make the Ohio State-PSU game go away but
but it was hard to do without disrupting other rivalries.”
Not at all.
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I based it entirely on preserving traditional rivalries & most played series. Interestingly enough Sparty is the Big Ten team (not counting PSU) that both Maryland & Rutgers have played the most.
As much as I despise the vile pit of evil that resides in Happy Valley but also like the symmetry of a UNL-PSU pairing I just can’t see singling out two schools to be the only ones forced to be locked into playing an opponent on the far side of the conference.
I give exactly two squats about the league plan to spin off Ohio State & TSUN to the east coast.
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Scarlet_Lutefisk,
“I based it entirely on preserving traditional rivalries & most played series.”
That doesn’t explain OSU/PSU. It’s not traditional or often played.
“Interestingly enough Sparty is the Big Ten team (not counting PSU) that both Maryland & Rutgers have played the most.”
Well, MSU isn’t near the top of the list for anyone else in the B10. Besides, they aren’t a big enough brand to accomplish the B10’s goals in NYC and DC.
“As much as I despise the vile pit of evil that resides in Happy Valley but also like the symmetry of a UNL-PSU pairing I just can’t see singling out two schools to be the only ones forced to be locked into playing an opponent on the far side of the conference.”
Both fan bases have indicated interest in that game. But please note, that was only in my personal preference set and not in the set I predicted the B10 would choose.
“I give exactly two squats about the league plan to spin off Ohio State & TSUN to the east coast.”
I dislike their plan as much as anyone, but I’m forced to accept that it shows their priorities.
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“That doesn’t explain OSU/PSU. It’s not traditional or often played.”
Sure it does. Ohio State has played PSU more than any other current B1G member. The series is also #1 in importance to Nit fans.
“Well, MSU isn’t near the top of the list for anyone else in the B10. Besides, they aren’t a big enough brand to accomplish the B10′s goals in NYC and DC.”
It was just an interesting aside and as noted I don’t care about said goal.
“Both fan bases have indicated interest in that game.”
It’s also far down on the list of priorities for either. Both groups have expressed a greater interest in playing teams located in their respective regions.
“But please note, that was only in my personal preference set and not in the set I predicted the B10 would choose.”
When did it become an exercise in predicting what the B1G would choose?
Brian you don’t need to work so hard at being argumentative. The only substantive difference in your list is trading Ohio State for Nebraska as a locked rival for PSU. Otherwise you’re mostly just splitting hairs.
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As an Illini fan, I really did wish that the Big Ten cared about the Illibuck, but my strong feeling is that it’s a very low priority compared to the conference’s goals on the East Coast. Same thing with the Little Brown Jug. On the other hand, I think a lot of Big Ten fans *grossly* underestimate how much importance the conference leadership places upon preserving the Ohio State-Penn State game. Buckeye fans might be perplexed by it, but I’m dead serious that they’ll nix every single rivalry outside of Michigan-Ohio State before they’d stop OSU-PSU. In a setup with 3 locked rivalries, PSU would be OSU’s 1 locked Eastern rival and then they’d play Michigan and one other Midwestern team. Maybe the Big Ten would be willing to protect the Illibuck instead of giving OSU a permanent game against MSU (maybe make a swap where IL-OSU and Indiana-MSU are protected instead, but the main thug is the OSU-PSU is non-negotiable.
Also, Michigan is the Big Ten school with the largest number of fans on the East Coast and, in particular, the NYC area, which means that they are arguably the single most important brand that the Big Ten has to leverage in that region. Since OSU and MSU are obvious locked rivals for Michigan, that means that the 3rd locked rival *needs* to be one of the Eastern newbies. I picked Rutgers for that slot because of the Michigan alumni presence in (and student population from) the NYC market. That is simply much more critical for the Big Ten’s entire approach to expansion than the Little Brown Jug or any other game that Michigan plays.
That means *someone* has to play Maryland beyond Rutgers and Penn State, and that admittedly feels pretty random. Michigan State is basically the last school on the list, it kinda/sorta makes geographic sense, and they don’t really have rivalries besides the Michigan game that scream for any need to be protected. I know that MSU would like to play Northwestern and go into the Chicago market, but that’s honestly something everyone in the Big Ten wants to do. Their case for that isn’t any more compelling for any other school in the Big Ten that isn’t a direct Northwestern rival (which basically consists of Illinois). That makes MSU the most malleable of any Big Ten school in terms of assigning a random rivalry (see the 11-team setup when they had PSU locked and then the 12-team setup with Indiana).
The western “pod” of NE/WI/MN/IA is too logical for me to mess with it – those 4 schools need to be playing each other. IL/NW/IN/PUR is another logical pod to me, although I could see maybe the Illibuck getting protected instead of OSU/MSU (and then would result in MSU/IN getting protected) instead.
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Scarlet_Lutefisk,
“Sure it does. Ohio State has played PSU more than any other current B1G member. The series is also #1 in importance to Nit fans.”
UMD took over the designation of most frequent opponent once the 2013 season ended. OSU/PSU hasn’t even been played 30 times in history. It is not a traditional rivalry nor a most played series anymore. I agree it’s the most valued by the PSU fans, but you didn’t list that as a criterion.
“It’s also far down on the list of priorities for either. Both groups have expressed a greater interest in playing teams located in their respective regions.”
It depends on the fan. Excluding Pitt, I’ve seen some PSU fans choose NE as their #1 choice since they could develop a true primary rivalry rather than always being #2 to OSU/MI for OSU. Many NE fans weren’t excited about IA or MN when they joined the B10, pointing at PSU as the one team they really had history with.
“When did it become an exercise in predicting what the B1G would choose?”
That seemed to be what at least most of the others were doing, but I was mostly pointing out a clear distinction between my two options I listed in that comment. I know the B10 wouldn’t make the same choices as me, so I provided a more realistic set as well.
“The only substantive difference in your list is trading Ohio State for Nebraska as a locked rival for PSU.”
I disagree. I didn’t have any of OSU/PSU, OSU/IL, MI/MN, NE/NW, IN/NW, UMD/PU or MSU/RU on my probable list. I consider not keeping the Illibuck and LBJ as substantive differences. On my personal list, I didn’t have OSU/PSU, IN/NW, MSU/RU or NE/NW. I consider MSU going to Chicago instead of NYC substantive, too, since it was a choice and not forced by the other changes.
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It would definitely make sense to spread the kings around and create a little more geographic diversity for the kings. So Ohio St.-Illinois and Michigan St.-IU or PU would be preferable.
But I can’t see Penn St. not getting Ohio St. every year. Its PSU’s biggest game and a big game for TV.
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Frank the Tank,
“As an Illini fan, I really did wish that the Big Ten cared about the Illibuck, but my strong feeling is that it’s a very low priority compared to the conference’s goals on the East Coast. Same thing with the Little Brown Jug.”
I agree. Those are games they keep when it’s convenient, but they don’t plan around them. Both have become lopsided and don’t mean nearly as much as they used to mean to either fan base. I’d still keep them, but I know the B10 wouldn’t.
“On the other hand, I think a lot of Big Ten fans *grossly* underestimate how much importance the conference leadership places upon preserving the Ohio State-Penn State game. Buckeye fans might be perplexed by it, but I’m dead serious that they’ll nix every single rivalry outside of Michigan-Ohio State before they’d stop OSU-PSU.”
We aren’t perplexed by it (we were their closest neighbor and both are kings, unlike UMD and RU), we just know how one-sided the feelings are and aren’t attached to the game. Many PSU fans seem angry and/or surprised by that. I know the B10 will keep it for financial reasons and to appease PSU, but that doesn’t mean it will ever make my list of personal preferences for games to lock (I have no duty to get a maximum TV deal). There’s also the unfairness of only OSU getting 2 locked kings that irks many Buckeyes.
I do think you overstate how highly the B10 values that game, though. OSU/MI is on a tier of its own, but PSU/OSU, PSU/MI and PSU/NE are all equal below it. Other factors happen to make OSU/PSU the game that is convenient to lock. If something else came up to make OSU unavailable, either of those other two games would work as well for the B10. I promise the B10 puts PSU/RU and PSU/UMD ahead of PSU/OSU, though. If PSU doesn’t play in those markets, those additions are DOA in terms of value.
I think it’s apples and oranges to compare OSU/PSU to the other local rivalries (MI/MSU, NW/IL, PU/IN, WI/MN, IA/MN, etc). The B10 values them all and works hard to preserve them.
“In a setup with 3 locked rivalries, PSU would be OSU’s 1 locked Eastern rival and then they’d play Michigan and one other Midwestern team.”
Most likely, yes. But they need to get OSU and MI in NYC and/or DC more often to make those additions prosper (or so they claim), and that could conceivably mean locking MI/RU and OSU/UMD while PSU plays NE.
“Maybe the Big Ten would be willing to protect the Illibuck instead of giving OSU a permanent game against MSU (maybe make a swap where IL-OSU and Indiana-MSU are protected instead,”
OSU has no real history with MSU. There is no old B10 member OSU has played less often since 1953 when MSU joined. We’ve played IL 20 more times in the regular season over that span.
“but the main thug is the OSU-PSU is non-negotiable.”
I don’t think it’s quite at that level, but you do need a good reason to not have it.
“Also, Michigan is the Big Ten school with the largest number of fans on the East Coast and, in particular, the NYC area, which means that they are arguably the single most important brand that the Big Ten has to leverage in that region.”
I assume you mean out of the midwestern schools. Clearly PSU has more east coast and NYC fans, and RU likely does too. UMD has more east coast fans, too.
“Since OSU and MSU are obvious locked rivals for Michigan, that means that the 3rd locked rival *needs* to be one of the Eastern newbies.”
How convenient that MI *needs* to play RU while OSU *needs* to play PSU.
“That means *someone* has to play Maryland beyond Rutgers and Penn State, and that admittedly feels pretty random. Michigan State is basically the last school on the list, it kinda/sorta makes geographic sense,”
Not really. MSU is a plane flight away, and at that point every school is about the same range.
“I know that MSU would like to play Northwestern and go into the Chicago market, but that’s honestly something everyone in the Big Ten wants to do.”
But MSU has been 10 times more vocal about its importance than anyone else. It’s much like PSU’s desire to play OSU. Everyone would like to play OSU, PSU just wants it a lot more than most.
“That makes MSU the most malleable of any Big Ten school in terms of assigning a random rivalry (see the 11-team setup when they had PSU locked and then the 12-team setup with Indiana).”
I’d say PU is equally malleable (IN and nobody else important).
“IL/NW/IN/PUR is another logical pod to me, although I could see maybe the Illibuck getting protected instead of OSU/MSU (and then would result in MSU/IN getting protected) instead.”
The one downside to this is that these schools get much easier locked schedules than their peers (MN, RU, UMD).
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Frank:
“As an Illini fan, I really did wish that the Big Ten cared about the Illibuck, but my strong feeling is that it’s a very low priority compared to the conference’s goals on the East Coast.”
That’s why you have 5 locked games. Increase king exposure on the East Coast as well as preserve ancient trophy games. Still play each school at least 50% of the time (allowing all players to visit each B10 stadium in 4 years). Voila.
“Their case for that isn’t any more compelling for any other school in the Big Ten that isn’t a direct Northwestern rival (which basically consists of Illinois).”
Not to Northwestern. To NU, Iowa is as big a rival as Illinois. In fact, ask the players, coaches, as well as the students and younger alums, and they’ll tell you that the Iowa game is a bigger rivalry game than the Illinois game.
“IL/NW/IN/PUR is another logical pod to me”
Maybe to an Illini fan. Not to Northwestern (or IU and PU when it comes to NU). NU has zero sense of rivalry with either IU or PU and IU and PU have zero sense of rivalry with NU.
The whole point of having locked games is that you don’t have to force-fit schools in to ill-fitting pods.
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Richard,
“That’s why you have 5 locked games. Increase king exposure on the East Coast as well as preserve ancient trophy games. Still play each school at least 50% of the time (allowing all players to visit each B10 stadium in 4 years). Voila.”
You only need to do that for the eastern 6, though. You’re also forcing a 9th game to get the 50% play while 8 games would do it for 3 locked rivals.
“The whole point of having locked games is that you don’t have to force-fit schools in to ill-fitting pods.”
Says the man proposing 5 locked rivals for everybody, which is essentially ill-fitting personal pods for almost everyone just to satisfy NW.
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Brian:
“You only need to do that for the eastern 6, though.”
Nope. Wisconsin, Northwestern, IU, and PU all both draw students from and send a lot of alums to the East Coast now.
“Says the man proposing 5 locked rivals for everybody, which is essentially ill-fitting personal pods for almost everyone just to satisfy NW.”
Nonsense. With 5 instead of 3, Iowa gets to have annual games with Illinois and Northwestern.
UNL gets to have annual games for UM (which the B10 office would want) and PSU (which both the B10 office and UNL would want.
PSU gets UNL as an annual game.
LBJ and Illibuck are preserved, which I’m sure all 4 schools (though especially Minny) would rather have annual than not while still sending the kings out east.
MSU gets to visit Chicagoland.
Minny gets to visit Chicagoland.
Pretty much everyone gets more of the games they want.
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“You’re also forcing a 9th game to get the 50% play while 8 games would do it for 3 locked rivals.”
BTW, there is zero indication that TPTB in the B10 are anywhere as interested in going back to 8 conference games as you are, Brian. If TPTB have to choose 2 of
1. Preserving rivalries.
2. Maximizing East Coast exposure.
3. Going back to 8 games.
I’m quite certain what they would prioritize, and it would not be #3.
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Richard,
“Nope. Wisconsin, Northwestern, IU, and PU all both draw students from and send a lot of alums to the East Coast now.”
Which has absolutely nothing to do with more king access to the east coast or preserving ancient rivalries, which is what you were talking about when you denied that only the eastern 6 need to be locked to achieve those goals.
“Nonsense. With 5 instead of 3, Iowa gets to have annual games with Illinois and Northwestern.”
I haven’t seen lots of IA fans clamoring to lock those games. They’d be nice, but nobody needs their 4th and 5th biggest rivalries locked versus played regularly.
“UNL gets to have annual games for UM (which the B10 office would want) and PSU (which both the B10 office and UNL would want.”
The B10 office wants them so much that they didn’t even try to lock either one this time around, even with 9 games.
“LBJ and Illibuck are preserved, which I’m sure all 4 schools (though especially Minny) would rather have annual than not while still sending the kings out east.”
Thanks for telling us fans of those schools what we and our schools want. Neither side cares about Illibuck enough to justify locking it, and fans on both sides have told you this. The same is true for MI and the LBJ. Maybe MN cares, but that’s not what I hear from the few of their fans I’ve talked with.
“MSU gets to visit Chicagoland.
Minny gets to visit Chicagoland.”
Everyone wants to visit Chicago, right? So why should more schools get an advantage over everyone else with that access?
“Pretty much everyone gets more of the games they want.”
These are mostly games they want only slightly more than average, and you ignored all the other locked games that would come with it. Are there really 5 schools that want locked games with MN, MSU, IN, PU and IL rather than an equal rotation through more teams? UMD and RU?
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Richard,
“BTW, there is zero indication that TPTB in the B10 are anywhere as interested in going back to 8 conference games as you are, Brian.”
Actually there is, since I like playing 9 games. The ADs fought it, but I didn’t. But if they can accomplish their goals with 8 games, it leaves them room to reconsider something like the B10/P12 alliance which they did show considerable interest in. The P12 wasn’t interested when they also played 9 P12 games, but this rule change could let them drop to 8 as well as I’ve pointed out. Maybe both sides would consider 8 games plus the alliance instead of keeping the 9th game. I’m simply showing that they get that option this way.
Or maybe the ADs back away from the 9th game after a while because of the 4/5 imbalance. Without divisions, that’s a huge advantage for the teams with 5 home games.
” If TPTB have to choose 2 of
1. Preserving rivalries.
2. Maximizing East Coast exposure.
3. Going back to 8 games.
I’m quite certain what they would prioritize, and it would not be #3.”
But they don’t have to choose just 2. What the B10 wanted was PSU, MI and OSU playing in NYC and DC a lot to build those markets and help integrate the newbies. Schools like WI, IA, MN, NW, IL, IN, PU and MSU are much less valuable for that purpose. The B10 wants everyone to play there regularly, and several of those other schools have interest in the east coast, but the B10’s main concern was getting the eastern kings there.
Again you neglect to see any advantage that dropping to 8 might offer and only see the downsides. Everything in scheduling is a tradeoff. The B10 values equal rotation more than minor rivalries. That’s why they’ve let Illibuck and LBJ lapse. The B10 could see East and West Coast access as better than just a little more East Coast access. The ADs may see scheduling flexibility with 4 OOC games as more important than some of these games, too.
I never said they would drop to 8, just that they might consider it. Especially if the P12 also considers it.
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I agree that after all the other dominoes fall, that it makes a certain amount of sense having Michigan and Michigan State playing Maryland and Rutgers, in some order. As a UM alum and season ticket holder, I can go either way. But I will mention that while UM certainly has more alums in NYC than MSU, I get the feeling from my Spartan family members that MSU has more association with New Jersey as far as students and perhaps recruiting (although, yes, I know Michigan has struck gold recruiting Jersey this year). I also know that UM has a lot of students and alums in DC, and again, I believe moreso than MSU.
So my best guess is that if they had a choice, MSU would prefer Rutgers over Maryland. I don’t know how Michigan looks at it… if they view Rutgers=NYC, they likely prefer Rutgers to Maryland. But if they view it more as Rutgers = New Jersey, than I could easily see Michigan preferring the synergy with Maryland/DC (and being near Hopkins, too). Or, at least, being accepting of either Rutgers or Maryland as an annual protected rivalry, and then, by default, getting Maryland.
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Posting in new thread:
247 has 4 B10 schools in the top 25 (ACC has 3, B12 has 2, Pac has 5).
Scout has 3 B10 schools in the top 25 (ACC has 2, B12 has 4, Pac has 5). Only difference if you go by average stars is that the ACC has 3 instead of 2.
Rival has 3 B10 schools in the top 25 (ACC has 5, B12 has 2, Pac has 3). If you go by average stars, the B10 has 4 in the top 25, ACC has 4, B12 has 2, Pac has 4.
So in terms of depth of teams, the B10 seems to be doing just as well as any other non-SEC conference. Maybe a tad worse than the Pac, but just a tad.
If you look at the gap, that’s due mostly to UM’s small class size (which hammered them in Scout and Rivals). By 247′s average player scores & Scout’s average stars, the B10′s #2 was better than the #2 of all 3 of the Pac, ACC, and B12 (as well as the B12′s #1). By Rival’s average stars, that’s all true except for the part about the Pac.
So it depends on whether you think class size is really that big of a deal when you’re talking about the 17th-22nd best recruits in a class. And yes, more 3 stars would have dropped down UM’s average, but I think that the analysis of the top 25 shows that the B10 is doing about as well as any other non-SEC conference in terms of depth.
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Class size tells you how much contribution you are getting in this particular year.
If you are on probation like USC, a small class size hurts.
If you are consistently over-signing, a large class size is a benefit as it allows you more “misses.”
But normally, it simply means you will get more in a later year or if you have a large class size, less in a later year.
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Posting in new thread:
Thinking about this, I think at fans should have certain expectations for where their schools should be in the recruiting rankings.
Tier 1:
Texas, UF, USC, FSU, ‘Bama, LSU, UGa, OSU.
These schools have all 3 of fertile recruiting grounds, brand, and money (USC and FSU actually trail the other 6 in that area, but they have enough and are the top brand name king in their respective conferences). They should be expected to finish in the top 10 every year.
One reason why the SEC dominated the top 10 this year (instead of, say, taking only half the top 10) is because USC and Texas were in turmoil, so let go their traditional seats at the table (though USC made a late push) and Tennessee had a second-year coach.
Tier 2:
ND, Michigan, PSU, Tennessee, OU, TAMU, Auburn, Miami.
5 old money kings who are close to fertile recruiting grounds (but still have to pull a lot of players from out of state in order to compete), 2 princes that have the money and recruiting grounds that a top tier king has but just don’t have the brand, and Miami, which has the brand and insane local recruiting grounds but seemingly has the money of a G5 program. They should be expected to finish in the top 20 every year and realistically should range from 5-20.
Tier 3:
UNL & UCLA
A king that is far away from any sort of fertile recruiting ground and a prince that is in the middle of a ton of talent but doesn’t have the money or brand of a king. they should be expected to finish in the top 25 every year (ranging from 10-25).
Tier 4:
SC, Arkansas, Clemson, VTech, UNC, Wisconsin, MSU, Iowa, Washington, Cal, Stanford, Oregon, OKSU
Princes (+ Oregon and OKSU who are here mostly because of their respective sugar daddy). I believe Stanford has made the jump to prince.
They should be in the top 40 every year.
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So which conferences beat or underperformed my expectations? Beating would be in the tier above where I had a school; so TAMU beat my expectations by being in the top 10 instead of 11-20.
Using 247′s rankings:
By conference:
SEC: 4 beat, 5 met, and 0 failed expectations. Very impressive.
B10: 1 beat, 3 met, and 3 failed expectations (but PSU was still under sanctions and had a coaching change).
Pac: 3 beat and 2 failed expectations.
ACC: 1 beat and 4 met expectations.
B12: 2 met and 1 failed expectations.
With 2nd year coaches, I expect USC and Texas to be firmly entrenched in the top 10 & PSU to challenge for the top 10 next year. Also Tennessee to drop out of the top 10.
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As for B10 TV deals, I agree. I believe that the B10 will reup with ESPN soon on a deal that comfortablely keeps them #1 in TV money but reserves a game-of-the-week package for bidding in 2016.
$35-45M in TV money coming soon to each B10 school.
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Delany is smart. ESPN can’t afford to lose the BIG but, they will.
They put all there chips on the SEC.
The BIG’s move east has more to do with Fox.
BTN is growing and has its own identity now. You’ll have another tier.
Plus Why do you think Fox Sports 1 and 2 were launched this past year.
You’ll have a 16 to 20 team conference by the time the new BIG tv deal is made.
Teams from both the ACC and B12. Screw ESPN.
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This “screw ESPN” sentiment is hilarious.
Get back to me once you’ve found a collegiate football conference who’s managed to get the exposure that they desire without any games on ESPN/ABC.
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@Frank the Tank
Concerning Michigan’s third locked rival (besides Ohio State and Michigan State):
From this link:
http://mup.asu.edu/research.html
In Year 2011, Michigan ranked third in Federal research money, and this Federal research money accounted for about 65% of Michigan’s total research money. Consequently, I suspect that Michigan’s academics may prefer Maryland as the third locked rival, rather than Rutgers. In this case, Rutgers could be the third locked rival of Michigan State (call it the “Rodney Dangerfield” rivalry).
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Considering that there are zero synergies between football and research, research expenditures will have absolutely no bearing on locking series.
Also, isn’t Wisconsin higher than bother RU and UMD in research money?
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True, although the Washington Post covers Maryland sports. But then many (more?) influential Federal politicians also read the New York Times. Anyway, it also depends if and who Penn State wants to fix as its year-end rival.
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Or the Tire Iron Trophy/Paulie Walnuts game.
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If the choice is between Rutgers and Maryland for Michigan’s third rival, I think the # of alumni and amount of $ from the NY/NJ area is going to win out.
http://www.annarbor.com/news/where-u-m-alumni-live/
Assuming that the “Washington” on the donor list is referring to Washington D.C. and not the home of the Huskies and the Cougars, New Jersey donors send double the amount of $ over Washington donors and New York donors send over six times as much.
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No way the LBJ game gets sacrified for either RU or UMD.
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The point of my opening post is that the academics at Michigan may prefer to have its iconic football team playing every other year in the shadow of the Federal government. US$ 730 million of Federal research money (for that one year only) is nothing to sneeze at.
Consider that Maryland’s proximity to the nation’s capital has resulted in strong research partnerships with the Federal government for the Terrapins. Many members of the faculty receive research funding and institutional support from agencies such as the National Institutes of Health, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and the National Institute of Standards and Technology.
As another example, the Goddard Space Flight Center (GFC) is located approximately 6.5 miles northeast of Washington, D.C. in Greenbelt, Maryland. GFC has a workforce of over 3,000 civil servant employees, 60% of which are engineers and scientists. There are approximately 7,000 supporting contractors on site every day. It is one of the largest concentrations of the world’s premiere space scientists and engineers.
From the link of my opening post, John Hopkins ranked first in Federal research money at US$ 1.73 billion for that one year only. That is more than 2.4 times than Michigan’s Federal research money respectively. I suspect that John Hopkins’ close proximity to the Federal government is not just another random coincidence.
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Except that where UM’s football team plays has absolutely zero impact on how much funding UM’s academics get.
Clemson has played UMD in football for 62 straight years now. Has Clemson’s research funding been helped by that?
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Ergo, the academics at UM could care less where the Wolverines play football.
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Concerning another potential scheduling scheme for Big Ten football without divisions:
From this link:
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/pod-scheduling-alignment-big-ten
Its potential as a scheduling scheme refers to the fact that is quite similar to the future East / West Division structure and thus would not differ greatly from scheduling principles already decided. Furthermore, without divisions there is no need to maintain divisional rivalries, and thus the schools of each pod could be arranged to achieve scheduling balance according to whatever expectations.
The following (arbitrary) example arranges schools so that each pod has its year-end rival in the other cross-over pod:
Pod A1 : Ohio State, Mich State, Maryland
Pod A2 : Michigan, Rutgers, Penn State
Pod B1 : Nebraska, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue
Pod B2 : Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana
For this scheduling scheme, pods A1 and A2 are locked cross-overs for scheduling purpose. The first two schools of Pods B1 and B2 are also locked cross-overs , as are the last two schools of each pod. Each of the first two schools B1 and B2 also rotate with one of the remaining schools in the other cross-over pod.
Pods then rotate once every two years, home/away, so that every school plays all other schools at least twice every four years. Using the above pod arrangements, example schedules are provided as follows:
Years 1&2 − Pods A1&B1, Pods A2&B2:
Michigan : Ohio State, Mich State, Maryland, Rutgers, Penn State, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana
Nebraska : Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Ohio State, Mich State, Maryland, Illinois
Years 3&4 − Pods A1&B2, Pods A2&B1:
Michigan : Ohio State, Mich State, Maryland, Rutgers, Penn State, Nebraska, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue
Nebraska : Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue, Michigan, Rutgers, Penn State, Indiana
In this example, the schedule of Michigan in Years 1&2 is similar with its future schedules, with the six schools of the future East Division plus three future cross-overs of the future West Division.
Ditto for the schedule of Nebraska in Years 1&2 with five of the six schools of the future West Division plus four future cross-overs of the future East Division.
In other words, such schedules are quite similar to the future East Division minus Indiana and the future West Division plus Indiana. This would not differ greatly from scheduling principles already decided. Plus it would satisfy the KISS principle rather well, with every school playing every other school at least two times every four years.
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Without divisions, there are no need for pods.
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These are not pods for determining “temporary divisions” (although the associated schedules would function in similar manner, particularly for establishing head-to-head games for tie-breaking purpose). These are only pods for scheduling purpose.
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Chet,
We’ve discussed pod scheduling on here before in many ways.
“http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/pod-scheduling-alignment-big-ten”
His first proposal is the Inner vs Outer plan that the B10 mentioned and then rejected (and he’s wrong to say it isn’t geographical). I still think it was the best plan if the B10 was going to stay at 8 games.
If we’re talking scheduling pods but not divisions, it opens up a few options. I’d stick to geography for my pods so fans get short road trips.
N – OSU, MI, MSU
E – PSU, UMD, RU
S – IN, PU, IL, NW
W – NE, IA, WI, MN
The simple schedule is to play everyone in your pod annually and rotate through the others equally. However, I’d consider adding an extra locked game between the N and E pods every year. This would help the B10 achieve its goal of getting the big brands in NYC and DC more often.
N & E – 2*100% + 8*55% + 3*88%
That’s so close to locked that you might as well do it, so go to 3 pods:
E – OSU, MI, MSU, PSU, UMD, RU
C – IN, PU, IL, NW
W – NE, IA, WI, MN
E – 5*100% (in pod) + 8*50% (2 from C and 2 from W each)
C & W – 3*100% (in pod) + 4*75% (other small pod) + 6*50% (1 each from OSU/PSU, MI/MSU and RU/UMD)
It wouldn’t lock OSU/IL or MI/IL, but time has hurt those rivalries anyway. Younger fans don’t care about them.
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Brian,
For Frank’s proposal, my personal preference is to unlock as many schools as possible, although it would be nice to have some kind of balanced (symmetrical) scheduling.
An advantage of Frank’s proposal is that it may provide flexibility (for example) to schedule Nebraska to play either Ohio State & Penn State or Ohio State & Michigan or Penn State & Michigan every year. That would boost the Cornhusker brand and benefit the Big Ten as well.
Another personal preference of mine is not to have rematches in the Conference Championship Game. But that is not my decision to make.
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Chet,
“For Frank’s proposal, my personal preference is to unlock as many schools as possible, although it would be nice to have some kind of balanced (symmetrical) scheduling.”
There aren’t many of those games that don’t need to be kept for various reasons. Of those that are extra, most are between the Central pod teams and they’d all be playing each other more anyway since almost everyone else needs the 3 locked games.
“An advantage of Frank’s proposal is that it may provide flexibility (for example) to schedule Nebraska to play either Ohio State & Penn State or Ohio State & Michigan or Penn State & Michigan every year. That would boost the Cornhusker brand and benefit the Big Ten as well.”
I promise you they won’t get OSU every year unkess there are major scheduling changes. OSU already has to play MI and PSU annually. The B10 isn’t going to lock 3 kings for OSU unless all 4 kings play each other annually.
I would’ve tried to lock NE/PSU, but everyone complained about travel when discussing Inner vs Outer. Besides, the 3 other western teams need a king to play and NE is right there.
What would really help NE’s brand is winning more games.
“Another personal preference of mine is not to have rematches in the Conference Championship Game. But that is not my decision to make.”
I discussed that later.
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Brian,
That’s why I had Wisconsin and Iowa in the same pod for the example in my original post of this thread. In this way, Michigan plays those two teams for those two years when Ohio State plays Nebraska. But this arrangement expects that Wisconsin continues – and Iowa returns – to its winning ways. And I suppose that Penn State and Michigan State could swap places in Pods A1 and A2, although the original purpose was to keep the two Michigan schools separate for the schools in Pods B1 and B2.
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Geography doesn’t change. NE is the local king for the western teams. That’s who they should play every year.
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Allow me to restate my original post to improve its clarity.
Each school has 5 locked rivals and rotates 4 other schools every other year:
Locked Rivals (example):
Nebraska: Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Northwestern, Purdue
Illinois: Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Iowa, Wisconsin
Rotating Schools (Years 1&2) (example):
Nebraska: Ohio State, Michigan State, Maryland, Illinois
Illinois: Michigan, Penn State, Rutgers, Nebraska
Rotating Schools (Years 3&4) (example):
Nebraska: Michigan, Penn State, Rutgers, Indiana
Illinois: Ohio State, Michigan State, Maryland, Minnesota
This is not much different than your scheme for home/away every other year.
For example (for Nebraska):
Years 1&2 =>
C&W = 3*100% = Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota
+ 4*75% = 3 = Indiana, Purdue, Illinois
+ 6*50% = 3 = Ohio State, Michigan, Rutgers
Years 3&4 =>
C&W = 3*100% = Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota
+ 4*75% = 3 = Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue
+ 6*50% = 3 = Penn State, Michigan State, Maryland
In comparison: I prefer your scheme, because the combination of Indiana, Purdue, Illinois and Northwestern changes every rotation, whereas my example scheme locks 2 schools and flips between the other 2 schools.
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GEAUX Tigers!
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@ FtT. Nice article (as
Here’s my thoughts on “no divisions/locked rivals.”
To begin, I don’t think it will happen. The new divisions are largely unobjectionable; mostly, the teams are playing who they really want to play; there is no motivated fan base (or subgroup) who hates “East” and “West.” Inertia is vastly underrated. Plus, Delany and the B1G are stubborn. The Earth had to move for the B1G to dump “Leaders” and “Legends.”
But, assuming the B1G considered the idea, I think Frank’s proposed locked rivals are about as good as you are going to get.
Having 3 locked rivals is easy for the western group and for the middle group. Neb, Wiscy, Minny, Iowa … then IL, IN, Pur, & Northwestern.
But that leaves the six teams in the east with two made-up “rivalries.”
OSU with MI, MSU & PSU makes sense.
PSU with Rut, MD & OSU makes sense.
MSU with OSU and MI makes sense. That leaves either Rutgers or MD. I agree with Frank’s choice.
That leaves MI with MSU, OSU and Maryland.
MSU-Rutgers and MI-Maryland are “conference imposed rivalries.” Everyone will have a good time making jokes. But, really, what are better options assuming only three locked rivals?
One option might be to lock only 2 rivals in the eastern group (which might or might not allow more scheduling flexibility).
That gives you two groups of 3: MSU/MI/OSU get locked together and PSU/MD/Rut.
FWIW, four locked rivals doesn’t seem to help.
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Better options? Look at my reply.
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4 locked rivals does allow every school to lock with at least one king. It also allows for Iowa-Northwestern (big rivalry game to NU) as well as the TV-friendly UNL-PSU rivalry yet still let’s each school play all other schools at least 50% of the time.
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The ACC proposal will pass, because all of the power conferences realize that they might want to do this at some point. The non-power conferences either have the same viewpoint, or realize that if they want to stand in the way of reform, this is a poor issue upon which to do so.
But I don’t think the Big Ten will be in any hurry to change its scheduling format. The addition of Maryland and Rutgers required an immediate response. The ACC rule change does not. It’s merely an option, which they can exercise at their leisure. They’ll take at least a couple of years to study it.
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I really like Frank’s plan and hope it will happen. While the geographic split is certainly the best way to go at present, as an IU fan that East division is a problem….Neb and Wis have it too easy out west.
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BuckeyeBeau,
“The new divisions are largely unobjectionable;”
No, they aren’t. Lots of people have had objections. It was just considered the least objectionable option by most people. Least objectionable and unobjectionable are very different.
“mostly, the teams are playing who they really want to play;”
And several teams they don’t want to, especially in the east.
“there is no motivated fan base (or subgroup) who hates “East” and “West.””
MSU actively campaigned to be in the West instead of the East. Lots of OSU fans have objected to playing RU and UMD instead of IL annually.
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There really is no understating the awesomeness of the DeLoss story.
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“Former Colorado athletic director Mike Bohn takes over at Cincinnati with one overriding priority: Get the Bearcats into a different conference.”
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/cincinnati-hires-former-colorado-ad-mike-bohn
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@Frank:
“This move could have a radical change to how networks schedule on Thursday night (which had turned into the new evening where networks all placed their best shows after SNF ravaged its Sunday night competition)”
This is not accurate. Networks did not move shows off of Sunday night because of SNF–they moved their best shows to Thursday night because its the most lucrative night for tv ad dollars.
ABC moved Greys to Thursdays from Sundays to try to topple CSI on CBS, which CBS had moved a few years prior when it saw that NBC’s Must See TV was fading.
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And might CBS temporarily move its hit Thursday sitcoms to Monday while NFL games have that slot? As a fan of “Mom” (Anna Faris and Allison Janney have terrific chemistry), I certainly hope not.
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No chance.
They’ll start November 1st. Win for fans–same number of episodes (22), less reruns between the start of the season and May.
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If you had said, he met DeLoss while he was gardening or listening to his opera music, it MAY have been believable. Going to a bar and drinking…….and in particular tequila shots……..laughable!
Ding, thanks for playing.
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On the personal note, Oliver Luck went to law school at UT and worked in Houston many years. So he knew all the movers and shakers.
I thought it was interesting the UT president met with the UGA president, who he had been an asst. professor with, when the SEC approached UT in 1989. The Dude claims Oliver Luck met with a former WVU professor at FSU (whom he named) when the Big 12 was talking to FSU. I believe the Dude isn’t making that up, just overstating the significance of those discussions. Maryland’s president had been at Iowa. Louisville had support in the Big 12 from OU as KY Senator McConnell had been in the Senate with OU’s president Boren.
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The dude was almost certainly making up that story. The professor he was talking about just would not come into contact with Barron barring some kind of off campus relationship that was made in a year and half that Barron was in Tallahassee. They where never in the same location before. They where in different fields. I am confident that the Dude just went though the FSU factuality directory looking for a WVU connection. This is the same cat that claimed it was Jimbo Fisher that was leaking information to him.
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I refuse to believe the dude could make anything up! HE HAS SOURCES!!
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Those of us who have been in business know how important relationships are. Especially in hiring decisions. You see that in assistant coach hirings. You usually see some connection where the head coach worked with that guy before (as much as assistants move there are lots of connections).
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“By the time 8:30 rolls around, we were [into it] pretty good but we got ourselves in a situation. ”
I’m not sure what a “situation” is. Terminology for a serious buzz? Getting approached by reporters? Getting approached by hookers? That line from the article has puzzled me.
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I read the situation being that the TCU AD felt he hadn’t made his full pitch by giving Dodds the binders and materials on TCU while the time flew by.
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Article on the IU rivals site linking an Omaha newspaper article about BT recruiting in NJ and Maryland…..quoted a prominant NJ HS coach who said all BT schools are more attractive now because parents can see their kids play at games at RU, PSU, and MD. Article said 13 BT recruits out of NJ this year, as many as from FL. 8 out of MD. 100 total D1 recruits out of NJ this year.
Actually, looking at Rivals top 40 in NJ…..last 9 went to non-BT schools. Of the first 31, 17 went to BT schools as follows: PSU 4; RU 4; UM 2; OSU 2; NW 2; MD, Iowa, and MSU 1. Now this is somewhat out of whack, as RU would have had 8-9 had their team not fallen apart half way through the season. Hopefully, they’ll get their shit together soon.But this is a significant factor favoring RU in the Big 10 that the RU detractors (hi Andy) don’t much acknowledge.
MD’s FB recruiting base is pretty good as well, although not on the scale of NJ’s. MD IS huge for PSU and for basketball recruiting…..NJ’s pretty decent for BB recruiting as well…….
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“NJ’s pretty decent for BB recruiting as well…….’
And RU’s proximity to NYC will only help B1G recruiting in NYC proper. A visiting assistant coach can go see NYC recruits play in the same trip when visiting RU.
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I woulsd think PSU would be trying very hard to get into that BB recruiting market….that program needs a base….Chambers is doing better in Philly but he needs a second base….
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Problem for PSU is that you already have multiple bball powers recruiting each of the East Coast urban bball hotbeds hard.
G’town and UMD in DC.
‘Nova and Temple in Philly.
‘Cuse, Pitino, and everybdy in NYC.
Actually, that’s true for all of the major East Coast metros. Probably 30 schools with a much better basketball pedigree than PSU recruit the East Coast hotbeds hard.
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I believe the “situation” was from the viewpoint of Deloss; ‘I don’t know who this guy is or what the hell we’re doing here, but I like him! I want him in the country club!’
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Pingback: TCU got into Big 12 by getting DeLoss Dodds liquored up
Blue!
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As to Frank’s backing of TCU over Cincy for the Big 12……..I thought Cincy was a much better choice then, and even more so now that TCU football has come back down to Earth. Bigger, public school, better bball, , and something of a rival for WVU, which is now isolated……..It will probably happen anyway, but Cincy should have gotten the nod.
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The rest of the B12 wanted as many trips down to TX as possible for recruiting purposes.
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Cincinnati should be low on the list. They simply don’t have the fan support despite being a big state school that was in a BCS conference (IS until July 1). Their ceiling seems to be pretty low.
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Not that I think TCU was a good long range choice. WVU should have replaced A&M and Louisville been next on the list.
Buts its possible having a 4th Texas team and one in DFW is a good bulwark against incursions from the SEC and a good choice for schools like Oklahoma St., Kansas and Kansas St.
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This, plus an extra Texas school is another excuse for out of state schools to come and see Texas recruits (as was noted, I think, by you, in the thread of another FtT post).
I tend to agree about Cincy, but if 12 is needed in the short term due to CFB playoff issues/selection committee preferences, Cincy’s a very good pick (plus, its a geographic bone to WVU to give them at least one conference rival nearby).
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I would add Memphis as the 12th with Cincy, unless BYU makes a play. Memphis is another stop on the bridge from Texas to West Virginia and it provides a recruiting conduit into metro Memphis, north Alabama, the Mississipi delta and possibly into the St. Louis metro (although I wonder if Mizzou is already stealing St. Louis area talent from the B16 west schools (Iowa, Mn, Wiscy, IL, Nebraska – that UNL shorthand makes me think of a potential mid-21st century Big 12 addition, Universidad Autonoma de Nuevo Leon, Monterey…and yes they field an American-style football team) . I dont see the Pac going all out for BYU – instead they will either stand pat or add schools from the MWC (of course if Texas/OK go all in with the Pac, it wont matter).
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Problem with Memphis is that expansion is driven by football first, second, and third, and to put it most charitably, Memphis is a terrible, terrible football program.
If Memphis were a better football program, then possibly.
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“I dont see the Pac going all out for BYU…”
I doubt the PAC would admit BYU even if it was a permanent requirement and guarantee that UT would come too.
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Central Florida or South Florida would be a good partner for Cincinnati in a Big 12 expansion. Florida is an underrated recruiting target for conference schools; of this year’s Iowa State recruiting class, 8 are from Texas, 4 are from Florida.
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To university presidents, playoff qualification is secondary issue to revenues. The Big XII won’t expand to lose money. They will stand pat unless the next two schools at least maintain the Big XII’s existing per-school payouts. That could be a difficult proposition. Although Cincy and USF/UCF would probably be the best options available, I’m not sure they’re financially better than the default option of doing nothing.
They also need the ACC’s CCG proposal to succeed. Without a rule change, it is difficult to come up with divisions that make sense. This was one of the biggest structural drawbacks of the Big XII from the beginning, and they had an extra king back then.
With or without divisions, the Texas schools are probably going to want to keep playing each other every year. The non-Texas schools will ask: “Am I better off substituting a game in Texas for a game in Cincinnati?” WV might be the only school who says yes to that, unless expansion is extremely compelling financially.
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If not for recruiting, Louisville would have been a better choice for the B12.
A bball king, close to WVU, and not too far from the rest of the B12.
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Yeah, because Rutgers, Miami, Maryland, Syracuse, Pitt and Boston College were all brought in for attendance and fan support.
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Exactly. Short term thinking on the Big 12’s part. If they wanted TCU so badly they should have just added WVU, TCU, Louisville and Cincinnati.
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The proposed new rule for conference championship games is about 5 or 10 years too late for the Big 12. Divisions were such a hindrance. Not that Dan Beebe or even Fake Dan Beebe wanted to rock the boat much but think of the moves they could have made to preserve the conference…
*Re-instate the Nebraska-Oklahoma rivalry.
*Add Arkansas without them having to go to the North.
*Add Louisville as an 11th school AND include a CCG.
*Search western options for Colorado.
*Add eastern schools for West Virginia without those schools being in a division with Iowa St. (FSU and Clemson?)
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Arkansas was never in the B12; it left the SWC effective 1992. Also, why would Arkansas leave the stability and wealth of the SEC for the instability of the B12?
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If the ACC dissolves divisions, I’d want 3 locked rivals for each team. 5 of the remaining 10 would be played for two years, then the other 5 would be played for two years. Locked rivals would be the following:
Boston College: Louisville, Syracuse, Wake Forest
Clemson: Florida State, Georgia Tech, NC State
Duke: UNC, Virginia, Wake Forest
Florida State: Clemson, Georgia Tech, Miami
Georgia Tech: Clemson, Florida State, Virginia Tech
Louisville: Boston College, Pittsburgh, Syracuse
Miami: Florida State, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech
UNC: Duke, NC State, Virginia
NC State: Clemson, UNC, Wake Forest
Pittsburgh: Louisville, Miami, Syracuse
Syracuse: Boston College, Louisville, Pittsburgh
Virginia: Duke, UNC, Virginia Tech
Virginia Tech: Georgia Tech, Miami, Virginia
Wake Forest: Boston College, Duke, NC State
It’s tricky, with either the Big Ten or ACC, to choose 3 rivals for 14 teams. For Penn State (Ohio State, Rutgers, Maryland) or UNC (NC State, Duke, Virginia), the three seem rather obvious which are most important to lock. For others like Purdue (Indiana) or Boston College (Syracuse), there may be only one team that’s an absolute must to have on the schedule every year.
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That is a tough set for Louisville, Pitt, and Cuse. They basically just get each other. You’d assume the newcomers would want accuse to some old school ACC teams / recruiting grounds.
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How the Vols nailed a great recruiting class:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20140206/tennessee-volunteers-national-signing-day/?eref=sihp#all
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As an RU fan living in NJ, IMHO Frank’s recommendations for RU’s permanent rivals make a lot of sense, based on geography (Md and PSU) and ratings potential. There are an enormous amount of Michigan fans in the NYC metro area who would attend/tune in to games. Provided of course RU doesn’t crap the bed, manages to field a semblance of a offense and defense, and is competetive.
Based on the talent level on the team, coupled with now experienced DBs and a better OC, none of those “rivalry” games are unsinkable next year. IMO.
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Unwinnable, not “unsinkable”. Damn auto-correct!
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Frank,
I enjoyed the Urbanophile link you posted and your comments on it.
I’ve only been to Columbus once. My wife and I went to a wedding there in 2009, I think. We stayed overnight from Indy and drove in early to explore a little. We like doing that sort of thing. It was summer, so there were relatively few students, but we explored Ohio State’s campus, High Street, and downtown.
Based on the article’s prompt (Quick: what do you think of when you hear “Columbus?”), my answer is “Ohio State.” The college is absolutely massive. Everything in the town is about the Buckeyes. That’s not news to anyone, but Ohio State does seem to define its city more so than many other universities do for their respective towns. Columbia, SC, for instance, is home to the U. of S. Carolina, but it’s not as overwhelmingly Gamecock-centric, in part because there’s another school in the state of only slightly smaller size and a similar sized fanbase. I think most people know Columbus is driven, in a good way, by Ohio State because its population is going to be more educated than the average town. It has a medical school and good hospitals. It’s also the state capital.
Honestly, the other way I would describe Columbus, based on my very limited experience there, is that it was somewhat of an Indianapolis-lite. It’s maybe 75% of the size, with no major pro sports (NHL doesn’t compare with NFL, NBA, or MLB), but it does have one of the most prominent collegiate athletics programs in America. The downtown had a similar layout, and even has a river of similar size with a similar park and greenway. Downtown did seem a little less vibrant, though. You or others may have described Columbus as having more in common with northeastern cities than with Midwestern ones, but it reminded me much more of Indy, which is not like the northeast at all.
I think it will always be hard for Columbus to stand out because it is sort of a third wheel in its own state. Unlike Texas or California, which are so much more vast, with cities are 3-5 hours apart, Columbus is just kind of caught in the middle, not too far between Cleveland and Cincinnati, its more established counterparts. Indy, by contrast, is the undisputed general for the state of Indiana. Now, I know many such as Richard Florida may say that which state a city is in doesn’t matter, but the general public perceives things differently.
While on the topic of urban growth/marketing, I’ll have to make some to notes about Raleigh, since it, like Columbus, is also a growing capital city with a large university in town. Now, I do have to hand it to the city (and the Triangle area in general) for many, many things that do matter a lot. It has three great universities within 30 minutes of each other. There’s a very good college sports scene (thought football could use some more work, given that there are THREE colleges who rarely finish in the top 25). It’s a fairly pretty area. It has a very well-educated population with a much lower unemployment area than most places. There are a ton of great jobs here, especially in RTP. It’s extremely family-friendly. Housing costs are much greater than most places in the South, but much lower than many places in the Northeast and Midwest. Schools are generally good. It has good southern charm but plenty of transplants to keep it from being at all like the rebel-flag waving backasswards place in counties not too far from here. People are friendly. All those things drew us to the area. I’m glad we moved here, and I’d be really sad if we ever have to leave.
With that said, Raleigh lacks much excitement where there’s not a game going on. Depending on the measure (growth since 2000), Raleigh is the fastest-growing city in the nation. The metro area, including Durham, Chapel Hill, and Cary, makes it not that much smaller than Nashville, Indy, or Charlotte, and maybe about the same size as Columbus, but there are not many must-see places here. Yes, there are museums and there are some cool restaurants here and there, but downtown is just… okay. My much smaller hometown of Greenville, SC packs in more people and is busier almost every weekend of the year than Raleigh. Nashville blows everyone away in music and nightlife. Indy has an extremely walkable downtown with stores, restaurants, museums, theaters, etc. all very accessible. (There’s a reason it got to host a Super Bowl and did a great job doing it.) Even compared to Columbus, it doesn’t have a real identity. Raleigh as a whole is barely more pro-NC State than it is pro-UNC, while Columbus has a generally unifying pro-Buckeyes theme. The city, and the region overall, is strikingly suburban. Downtown is very small for the size of its metro area. I think it’s this way because the city is a very late-bloomer. Older cities have larger downtowns because people needed to be close to work. Even in the early 20th centuries, people wouldn’t live any farther than the streetcars would take them. Raleigh’s growth, on the other hand, has come primarily in the past 30-40 years, and nearly all of it has been suburban. RTP, in particular, is suburban, about 5 miles from DT Durham and 10 miles from DT Raleigh. So, aside from the ACC sports scene, there’s not a particularly defining quality about this area, even though it has all the important things (good schools, relatively affordable living, good jobs, plus a better climate than the northeast/midwest) I listed above that draw people to the area.
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@ MiR.
Great post. A lot of good stuff.
I too went over and read the blog post/comments on branding/re-branding C-bus. It was interesting and is interesting to ponder how smaller cities can differentiate themselves from other cities of similar size/regional appeal.
I was a bit puzzled at the insistence that “branding” is not “marketing.” But … not important I guess.
I grew up in C-bus and, other than tOSU, there really is NOT anything … well … memorable about the place.
If I would in charge of the branding, I would hire some well known artist/designer/builder to create a sculpture, building, tower, monument, whatever. Something odd but unforgettable. Say …. a 20 foot tall purple cow rearing like a horse with a yellow orangutan rider. Add a new War Animal every few years. A 25 foot red bear falconer. Then build some sort of tech/skater theme something around it. Get Apple to license or make six foot high iPods with 100 nodes to check out music. Have 100 of them; Wifi everywhere, etc etc.
Whatever the idea, you build it, then the branding goes from there.
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Actually not having anything memorable is what makes Columbus unique. Its why marketers often use Columbus as a test market. Its not quirky or different.
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BuckeyeBeau,
Although it is a fine line, there is a difference between branding and marketing. Think of branding as elements used to create associations with something (logos, colors, names, imagery, etc.). Marketing becomes how you leverage those elements for economic gain. The two should be closely linked, but they are different, which makes things incredibly complicated for some brands and businesses… That’s another conversation for another day.
I hope that helps…
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I have to correct you on Columbus being 75% of the size of Indianapolis — that is false. They are virtually the same size.
City Population:
13. Indianapolis – 834,852
15. Columbus – 809,798
Metropolitan Area Population (including the suburbs and surrounding areas):
32. Columbus – 1,944,002
33. Indianapolis – 1,928,982
Source: Wikipedia
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@Frank:
As was noted earlier on this thread, I think you should revise your protected rival list to adhere to the B1G’s stated preference to protect as many rivalry/trophy games as well, with geography as a secondary consideration.
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@Frank:
As a Buckeye fan, I like the 3 rivalry games Frank has for us. No offense but the Illibuck trophy means nothing to me.
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Wainscott,
“As was noted earlier on this thread, I think you should revise your protected rival list to adhere to the B1G’s stated preference to protect as many rivalry/trophy games as well, with geography as a secondary consideration.”
Except that is no longer what the B10 has said are the priorities. They put geography #1 this time and didn’t try to preserve crossover rivalries beyond IN/PU. They made money #2 (parity-based scheduling). They could have made IL one of the teams OSU would play more often (and MN for MI), but they didn’t.
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That’s in a world where you have to have 2 divisions.
The priorities change when the rules change.
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Feel free to provide the evidence of when the B10 has said their current priority is to preserve rivalries with geography as a secondary concern. Because that’s what he claimed and I refuted. He didn’t speculate about what the future priorities would be.
That said, go back to the pre-NE days. The B10 didn’t lock OSU/IL or MI/MN in the days of 11 teams, either. But they did lock OSU/PSU (and PSU/MI for 10 years). That was geography and sending the big brands to the newbie more often over rivalries.
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“Feel free to provide the evidence of when the B10 has said their current priority is to preserve rivalries with geography as a secondary concern.”
You must not have paid attention, Brian (though I suspect it’s selective amnesia). When Legends/Leaders were made, the B10 touted the fact that virtually all trophy games except for Iowa-Wisconsin (and the made-up Minny-PSU one) were preserved while violating all concept of geography.
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OK, I just noticed the word “current”. However, the fact that the B10 went from geography being something like a tertiary concern to a primary one after a change of circumstances shows that another change of circumstances will very likely change the priorities again.
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Richard,
“OK, I just noticed the word “current”.”
And that word was the whole subject under discussion before you jumped in, so it’s kind of important.
“However, the fact that the B10 went from geography being something like a tertiary concern to a primary one after a change of circumstances shows that another change of circumstances will very likely change the priorities again.”
I never disputed that the B10 had said it before or that it might say it again.
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I don’t think the Big Ten ADs suddenly discovered they care about geography, having placed it dead last when they re-organized for 12 teams. What they discovered is that comprehensible divisions make a lot more marketing sense. “Legends” and “Leaders” debuted to widespread derision, and they were eager not to see that happen again.
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Marc Shepherd,
“I don’t think the Big Ten ADs suddenly discovered they care about geography, having placed it dead last when they re-organized for 12 teams.”
Or you could say they made it the third most important thing while knowing that the second thing (rivalries) was closely linked to geography (other than LBJ and Illibuck).
“What they discovered is that comprehensible divisions make a lot more marketing sense.”
And that the fans of WI (and MI and MSU to a much lesser extent) complained about the road trips. WI was also upset to lose WI/IA.
““Legends” and “Leaders” debuted to widespread derision, and they were eager not to see that happen again.”
The derision was for the names. They were the southeast and northwest divisions, with WI and NW swapped (and those 2 are only 150 miles apart).
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@Frank:
As a Buckeye fan, I like the 3 rivalry games Frank has for us. No offense but the Illibuck trophy means nothing to me.
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Sources: ACC eyes more SEC games:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10419715/acc-eyes-schedule-includes-one-sec-game-every-year
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Not a great idea, especially if the expectation is for all 14 teams to face an SEC school.
Really, I would just want to see ACC schools, and schools of all Power 5 leagues, for that matter, mandated by their leagues to play 1 other P5 school in their non-conference schedules, at bare minimum. Two would be preferable, especially for the leagues who are staying at 8 conference games. But schools should have the freedom to choose opponents that make the most sense for them, whether it’s SEC, Big Ten, Big 12, or Pac-12.
In particular, Boston College, Syracuse, and Pittsburgh would make way more sense playing a Big Ten school than they would an SEC school. Louisville and Virginia could go either way. Miami tends to cast its net nationally for non-conference opponents. I can recall some Florida and Tennessee games for the Canes, sure, but also Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Kansas State, and Penn State (if you go back far enough). Virginia Tech has scheduled a bunch of Big Ten games. Duke & Wake Forest like to go for games against the service academies and against other similarly elite private schools, regardless of conference affiliation: Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Rice.
Likewise, I don’t see why the SEC would want its non-conference schedule so heavily towards the SEC. LSU and Tennessee, like Miami, cast their non-league schedules pretty wide. I could see Tennessee aiming for some games against ACC schools, but no more so than some Big Ten or Big 12 games. LSU would probably prefer Big 12 games or games from wherever. Arkansas, Kentucky, the Mississippi schools–what would they want out of ACC games any more than they would anyone else.
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To me, it’s an admission from the ACC that adding a ninth conference game within the conference isn’t all that attractive from either a ratings or attendance perspective (only Clemson, Florida State and to a lesser extent Virginia Tech travel well) and that it needs the SEC as a crutch. One senses that both ESPN and Notre Dame, each pulling their 800-pound gorilla weight behind the scenes, have something to do with this scheme. Oh, and I hope Syracuse, Boston College and Pittsburgh enjoy trips to Starkville, Oxford and Auburn. More and more, I’m glad Maryland is fleeing this joke of a league in favor of a real conference.
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It’s a great idea and could generate more interest & revenue. (Somehow the B1G versus PAC proposal was mainly hailed as a breakthrough arrangement; the ACC v B1G basketball challenge has worked for 15 years).
An opening weekend slate of 5 games…some at neutral sites such as Atlanta, Charlotte, Bristol, Tampa or Jacksonville…and some HaH would be perfect.
For that matter, ACC v B1G with a 5 game annual challenge would also be sweet. Annual HaH for UVa/UMd, Syr/Rutg and Pitt/PSU, mixed in with a couple of attractive one-time HaH (VT/OSU, BC/NW, Miami/UNL, Louis/Pur, etc).
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“An SEC source told ESPN.com that the ACC’s idea of an “8+1 model” was merely a concept that had been discussed only once and was a long way from being a reality. It was so premature, he said, that most athletic directors in the SEC hadn’t even been briefed on it.”
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They’d both rather lock an OC game than add a ninth conf game?
At least Stanford and USC (who claimed not to have opposed) were at nine CGs plus ND yearly when the B1G/PAC alliance fell apart.
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This is a reason to not change the CCG rules. Planing OOC matchups may be important, but its unrelated to deciding a conference championship. “We want our cake, and eat it too.”
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So very tragic:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10419721/ted-agu-defensive-lineman-california-golden-bears-dies
From the article:
“Details on what happened remain unclear, but according to the Bay Area News Group, Agu’s death appears to be related to a team conditioning session Friday morning.”
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I really like how everyone leaves one word comments. It’s great because then they email notices or something and it adds to the number of comments that the blog receives. This is all great for me because I love nothing more in this world than one word comments and an author who allows them for the purposes of having a higher comment count.
Also, probably my favorite thing of reading “Go Bucks” or “Hook Em” is that I get none of the discussion that most comment boards promote. I never really wanted that in a comment board anyway. To me, the best feature of a comment board is that other people can junk it up for laziness reasons. Remember when myspace.com was nothing more than GIF.posting and spam? That was like heaven for me.
Also, I love that fact that expansion is clearly not happening yet this blog continues to “report” on it. Want to report something? Report on something exciting like reading the same comments regardless of article. I think you (as blauthor) should promote just signing with a decimal point so as to prefect junk to its essence. That way, whenever people want to read “Go Bucks” for the 90th time they can instead just imagine it.
Kind of like how you to actually have to be in a medieval castle to pretend you are. Wait what? Hold on here..
What I’m saying is that I live for viewing “Go Bucks” “Hook ’em” ect. That is the only reason I come. But like that medieval castle, I don’t actually have to view “Hook ’em” to imagine it. Which is why, I could just get by on people typing decimal points for the purposes of getting email updates/inflating post counts.
Thank you chefs,
DJ Angelo Rigimortys IIIV
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Go Bucks!
And don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
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Pfffttttt…
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We train young men to drop fire on people. But their moderators won’t allow them to write F**K on their blogs because it’s obscene! Hit the road, Jack! on this:
http://mvictors.com/?p=524
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Go cougars!
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This is the problem when you add two shitty teams like Rutgers and Maryland. Somebody has to play them now. Ohio State was developing a great rivalry with Wisconsin, but since we’ll only play them about twice a decade, you can kiss that good-bye. As far as Nebraska, I’m not a fan of their’s, but then assigned rivals are less than overwhelming. If Nebraska is considered a King, then they have to play Kings. Penn State is the only choice for them so I would drop one of PSU’s games with Maryland or Rutgers and add Nebraska.
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“I would drop one of PSU’s games with MD or RU and add Nebraska.”
YGTBK!
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“Ohio State was developing a great rivalry with Wisconsin, but since we’ll only play them about twice a decade, you can kiss that good-bye.”
Um, wut?
Under the current scheduling system, you’ll play Wisconsin twice in 6 years. The next 6 year cycle, you may very well play UW every year for 6 years.
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And some of you think the Big 12 should add 2 teams lower on the totem pole than Maryland.
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Final 2013 CFB attendance numbers.
Click to access 2013.pdf
Over 100,000
1. Michigan
2. Ohio State
3. Alabama
Over 90,000
4. Texas
5. Penn State
6. Tennessee
7. Georgia
8. LSU
9. Nebraska
Over 80,000
10. Florida
11. Texas A&M
12. Auburn
13. Oklahoma
14. South Carolina
15. Clemson
16. Notre Dame
Over 70,000
17. Wisconsin
18. Florida State
19. USC
20. Michigan State
21. UCLA
Over 60,000
22. Washington
23. Iowa
24. Virginia Tech
25. Mizzou
26. Arizona State
27. Arkansas
28. BYU
Honorable mention (over 59,000)
29. Kentucky
30. Ole Miss
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Doak Campbell seats over 80K yet the ‘Noles don’t go over an 80K average in a national title season.
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FSU home attendance in 2013:
65k – Idaho
73k-75k – NV, Bethune-Cookman, UMD, Syracuse
80k – NCSU
84k – Miami
Capacity = 82k
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Still rather disappointing for a king.
Kyle Field seats about the same and A&M easily broke 80K.
Owen Field, Death Valley, Notre Dame Stadium, and Camp Randall all seat less than Doak Campbell, yet OU, Clemson, ND, and Wisconsin all drew more than FSU despite A&M, Clemson, & UW not being kings and none of them having the season that FSU had.
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I wasn’t arguing, just supplying the data. FSU basically can only sell out for a rivalry. This is one reason they wish GT and VT were in their division. None of the northern teams fill the place.
The fans should definitely do better, but FSU should also stop scheduling a I-AA plus Idaho (worse than many I-AAs) plus NV (solid, but so far away few fans will travel).
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FSU should absolutely do better, no question about it. But last year’s schedule was really, really unappealing. Bethune-Cookman, Idaho, AND Nevada? Come on. Next year will be a really good home schedule featuring Florida, Clemson, and Notre Dame.
Additionally, FSU is a long way away from most of its alumni and fans. Jacksonville is almost 2 and half hours away. Orlando is almost 3 hours 45 minutes. Tampa, a little further. Those are long distances to drive to go watch… the Idaho game.
FSU also doesn’t have the deep, deep history of Michigan, Ohio State, Alabama, USC, etc. I wasn’t around in the 60’s or 70’s, but I imagine they barely were on the map until Bowden arrived. Then they became a very solid program for Bowden’s first 12 years or so, and then they went on that great 14-year run of top five finishes. Demand for tickets went up and up, so the school expanded the stadium to meet the demand. Problem is that the stadium’s capacity met the demand for year-after-year top five teams, not for a bunch of down years and a weak home schedule. Really, the stadium should probably be about 76-78K, but, at one time, it could have sold 88,000/game (if the seats were there to sell. I think FSU wanted its football stadium to be in the same class as Florida, Georgia, Auburn, etc.
At some point, though, excuses need to go away. Penn State is as isolated a campus for a football program of its caliber as any in the nation, and it still draws over 90,000 even in sanctions years. FSU ought to be able to sell out every game, especially this coming year after a national title and with an attractive schedule.
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They might have been able to if they joined the SEC in 1989. FSU really doesn’t fit geographically very well in the ACC. They are right in the E/W middle of the SEC.
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@Michael in Raleigh:
“FSU also doesn’t have the deep, deep history of Michigan, Ohio State, Alabama, USC, etc. I wasn’t around in the 60′s or 70′s, but I imagine they barely were on the map until Bowden arrived.”
FSU was an all girls school until after WWII. Absolutely no football success pre-Bowden, and that includes the Burt Reynolds/Lee Corso teams int he 50’s. Bowden got the job after getting run out of Morgantown (UVW)–he was not a hot coaching property. But he got to FSU right as Florida was exploding as a football state and while UF was down in the dumps and had a few years before Miami became good. Timing is everything.
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A few corrections to this part of thread regarding FSU:
1. FSU is the oldest school and only campus that existed prior/during Civil War in Fla. UF actually didn’t actually exist (in any tangible way) until 1905.
2. FSU was all male/coed for first ~50 years of its existence.
3. FSU had a terrible -perhaps it’s worst n decades – schedule this year.
4. FSU attracts a ton of eyeballs on TV…but hopefully will average 80k plus in ’14
5. UF was very lacking in tradition prior to the 1990s. Both FSU and Miami reached the national stage earlier due to guys like Bowden, Shellenberger and Johnson. UF simply blew any advantages it should have had and the rest is history.
Just wanted to clear some minor points up…
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@Tom:
Re: FSU’s history:
Thanks for the historical background on FSU. However, FSU, as we now know it, was a women’s college from 1905-1947. FSU’s own history states they did not begin playing football until 1947. (See: http://www.seminoles.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/fsu-m-footbl-archive.html , click on FSU Year-by-Year).
Also, FSU’s OOC schedule is entirely of its own making. If should try to schedule better going forward.
Also, how UF never won an SEC football title until the 1990’s (unless you are a UF partisan and count 1984), is truly a mystery to me. FSU was the first to make it to the national stage, even if Miami got to greater heights faster.
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Wainscott,
That’s an interesting way of putting it for the rise of Florida’s Big Three.
I do think, though, Florida stood out ahead of the other two for most of its history. Its team has been around the longest. It had a Heisman winner in the 60’s, an accomplishment on the national stage that Miami and FSU would not achieve for another 20 or 30 years. And, sure, it was somewhat of an also-ran in the SEC for a long, long time, but it was still an SEC program. Yes, I know that conference affiliation didn’t have the financial implications back then that it does today. Prior to 1984, conferences didn’t even offer the television exposure advantage. But UF was playing literally in the same league with Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, LSU, Auburn, and Ole Miss. Meanwhile, Miami had to scrape together whatever games it could, often against modern day CUSA, AAC, and FCS teams. FSU did the same thing. Both started to ramp up schedules in the 70’s and especially the 80’s, but Florida was playing with the “big boys” for decades. UF also appeared in major bowl games before FSU or Miami did.
No question about it, Florida was established well before Miami or FSU. But you are correcg: the latter two did ascend greater heights sooner.
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@Michael:
Yes, UF had more fleeting moments of success than either UM or FSU before the early 80,s (Including Suprrier’s heisman). However, UF never sustained it. Looking at UF’s yearly records, before Charley Pell, its a few good years mixed in with mediocre years and some absolutely bad years.
As for its playing in the SEC, the SEC was not a prime conference until the 1990’s. Certainly nowhere near what it is today. Georgia pre-1990 owned Florida. Alabama and UF were not annual rivals. UF- Tennessee was not what it is now. And the better teams would beat up on UF when they played.
UF was the best in the state for most of the pre-1978 period, but largely by default. FSU began its rise in the late 70’s, shortly before UM started to get it together. However, UM rose faster and dominated the 80’s (by virtue of 4 national titles in 9 years), even though FSU started its 14 year run of consecutive top 5 AP finishes in 1987. Suprrier took UF to historic heights starting in the early 90’s, but UF was the last of the big 3 to win a national title.
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Wainscot, FSU is in the process of looking at better recognizing those old teams (~1899-1905) that had been somewhat lost in history (due, in large part, to FSU’s rather interesting history). 1947 also just made it easy to keep it continuous.
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Michael, there is almost nothing noteworthy on a national level prior to the 90s with UF. Save Spurrier’s (cough Griese’s) Heisman. They didn’t win a SEC title until they’d been in the conference for nearly 60 years!
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I can’t believe I’m spending this much time defending Florida. Yuck.
I think the SEC was a prime conference prior to the 90’s. It wasn’t what it is today, but it was pretty darn solid. Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, LSU, and Auburn are all in the top 13 all-time in wins. The 80’s were a little light on national titles, but it was never just Alabama and 9 dwarves. It hasn’t always been THE best, but in any given year, it was one of the best.
Tom,
Yes, you’re right that Florida was a massive underachiever through most of its history. You don’t have to convince me of that. Miami was basically the equivalent of an AAC or C-USA program, if not lesser than that, until the Schnellenburger arrived. FSU had to claw its way up the ranks, stumbling quite a bit in the early/mid-70’s, and had to do it the independent route. UCF didn’t have a football program until the late 70’s, and wasn’t FBS until the late 90’s. USF started its football program in the late 90’s. Florida, meanwhile, had the cache of being in the SEC, the league that FSU tried to join in the 50’s AND the 60’s AND the 70’s but was unable to do so. It gave Florida a huge leg up, regardless of its inability to leverage its old-guard status into success.
You just can’t underestimate how significant Florida’s advantage over the other schools in Florida was. Florida State had to go to the state legislature to put pressure on Florida to play them, and the first six games of the series were played in Gainesville. They won 16 of their first 19.
This is what makes it so cool about what Bowden was able to do. Not only was Florida State well behind the in-state rival, it had fallen really hard, really fast. My parents were there in the falls of ’73, ’74, and ’75. Before they got there, FSU had actually had some pretty decent seasons under Bill Petersen with some bowl appearances, but they completely fell apart. My dad told me once they were so bad that there were rumors (granted, just rumors) that the football program would be shut down. Then Bowden comes in, quickly gets it out of the doldrums, brings it to and beyond the late 60’s, early 70’s level of success, and eventually turns it into a power at the national level. In the late 80’s and early 90’s, I bet it would have been really fun to be a Seminoles fan in Florida (or a Canes fan, I guess) enjoying success UF had never tasted before, especially considering the way Gators viewed FSU as a little brother for a long time. (They even started acting that way in the 2000’s again when FSU was down and UF was doing great at hoops and football. Some said, “We consider LSU and Alabama more important rivals than FSU.” How quickly they forget.)
Anyway, I wasn’t familiar with UF and FSU’s histories as institutions. I knew they both point to 1851 as the date of their founding, which resulted from a legislative mandate for two new state schools of higher education, one east of the Sewanee and one west. I didn’t know UF hadn’t always been in Gainesville.
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Money solves everything-DISH and Disney are about to kiss, make up and add the SEC Network (not that the latter is mentioned in the article-but it has been mentioned previously).
http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/dish-network-disney-come-terms-auto-hop/
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It appears to be official. Alabama and Tennessee are joining the Big 12.
http://articles.dailypress.com/2014-01-31/sports/dp-spt-college-multi-local-roundup-20140131_1_kirby-burkholder-odu-chris-mecate
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And so is Old Dominion.
In women’s rowing.
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Frank, please get enlightened. Swoffie wants to change the current NCAA rule because it mandates that NCAA conferences must have equal divisions. He wants to invite UConn for the 15th ACC spot because they provide a TV market that he desperately needs if he has any hope of launching an ACC Network. He then will “save” the 16th spot for Notre Dame.
Now, we both know that the ACC Network is dead in the water and that ND has no intention of joining a conference in football. But Swoffie lives in a fairy tale world where both of those absurd fantasies will come true, much like Santa Claus and the Land of Oz.
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The MAC has already gotten a waiver to have 13 teams, so having 15 wouldn’t be an issue.
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But would they waive it for someone who isn’t inconsequential and who did 13 by choice, not by failure to find a 14th or a loss of the 14th?
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I think so. With the precedent set, they’d need a good reason not to say yes. It would have been easier to say no to the MAC than to the P12.
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I don’t think there is anything to them wanting UConn. What the ACC wants is a set-up where they can have 8 conference games and be playing almost half the conference twice in 12 years.
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Frank,
“Conference Championship Games the Way We Want Them
…
Personally, I am all for it and hope that Jim Delany and the Big Ten hop aboard in support of the measure.”
I think it helps others more than the B10, so he should consider being against it out of gamesmanship. That said, I wouldn’t be upset with this change as long as they keep a limit on the minimum size needed to have a CCG. I just don’t see a need for a 10 team conference to play an extra game to determine their champion.
“Therefore, if there’s a way to continue to hold conference championship games while eliminating divisions (or at least modifying the rules where teams don’t have to play round-robin schedules within their divisions), that provides a lot more ability for expanded conferences to adopt scheduling policies to play everyone within a league more frequently.”
I have to disagree with your side comment. If a conference has divisions, those divisions should have to play a complete round robin. Otherwise, the division is meaningless. Just lock a few games and rotate the rest, or have more than 2 divisions.
They also need to make it clear that the CCG must decide the champion, not just be a good game. Otherwise a conference could choose to have #2 play #3 to help #2 make the playoff while #1 gets a bye to prevent them getting upset.
“If I was running the Big Ten, I’d use the K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) strategy of assigning every school 3 permanent rivals that it will play annually based on geography.”
Above I gave a fairly simple pod plan that achieves some other goals of the B10 (getting OSU and MI in NYC and DC more) while keeping geography in mind since that seems to be the current priority.
Boiled down:
E = OSU, MI, MSU, PSU, RU, UMD
C = PU, IN, IL, NW
W = NE, WI, IA, MN
E = 5*100% (pod) + 8*50% (2 from C – 1 of IN/PU, IL/NW and 2 from W – 1 of NE/IA, WI/MN)
+ 6*50% (E – 1 of OSU/MI, PSU/MSU, RU/UMD)
C = 3*100% (pod) + 4*75%
W = 3*100% (pod) + 4*75% (C) + 6*50% (E – 1 of OSU/MI, PSU/MSU, RU/UMD)
This gets you 50% against everyone at a minimum while keeping almost every important game annual (no LBJ or Illibuck locked).
That’s not to knock your plan, just a related sidebar.
“That would then leave 6 other games to fill on the 9-game schedule every year. This setup allows each school to play everyone else in the conference 6 times every 10 years (a cycle of 2 years on, 2 years off, 4 years on, 2 years off), which keeps conference unity strong while still integrating the benefits of geographic expansion.”
I think the B10 might seriously consider dropping back to 8 games if this rule passed. A lot of ADs were concerned about the 5/4 imbalance. With no divisions, you can play 8 games and see everyone 50% of the time at least. The P12 would likely jump on board, and they may drop to 8 games, too. Then the B10/P12 challenge might return instead of the 9th conference game.
“Here’s how I’d assign the Big Ten rivalries:
SCHOOL RIVAL #1 RIVAL #2 RIVAL #3
Illinois Northwestern Indiana Purdue
Indiana Purdue Illinois Northwestern
Iowa Nebraska Wisconsin Minnesota
Maryland Michigan State Rutgers Penn State
Michigan Ohio State Michigan State Rutgers
Michigan State Maryland Michigan Ohio State
Minnesota Wisconsin Nebraska Iowa
Nebraska Iowa Minnesota Wisconsin
Northwestern Illinois Purdue Indiana
Ohio State Michigan Penn State Michigan State
Penn State Rutgers Ohio State Maryland
Purdue Indiana Northwestern Illinois
Rutgers Penn State Maryland Michigan
Wisconsin Minnesota Iowa Nebraska”
I pretty much agree with your choices here.
You made my West pod appear, so I can’t argue with that.
NE – IA, WI, MN
IA – NE, MN, WI
MN – WI, IA, NE
WI – MN, IA, NE
You also made my Central pod, which is OK by me but the most controversial part.
IL – NW, PU, IN
NW – IL, PU, IN
IN – PU, NW, IL
PU – IN, NW, IL
That left you with my Eastern superpod, which you did this with:
“Maryland Michigan State Rutgers Penn State
Michigan Ohio State Michigan State Rutgers
Michigan State Maryland Michigan Ohio State
Ohio State Michigan Penn State Michigan State
Penn State Rutgers Ohio State Maryland
Rutgers Penn State Maryland Michigan”
Clearly PSU is correct, and the rest of that eastern triangle will play each other. Add in the known OSU and MI rivalries and it fills itself out. The only choice is whether to go MI/RU and MSU/UMD or MI/UMD and MSU/RU, and I agree with you.
PSU – OSU, RU, UMD
UMD – PSU, RU, MSU
RU – PSU, UMD, MI
OSU – MI, PSU, MSU
MI – OSU, MSU, RU
MSU – MI, OSU, UMD
However, this doesn’t get the big brands in NYC and DC as often as the B10 seems to want. Going to my pod plan would. It would also make things more fair for OSU (only team with 2 kings locked, plus they get a prince).
PSU – OSU, RU, UMD, MI, MSU
UMD – PSU, RU, MSU, OSU, MI
RU – PSU, UMD, MI, OSU, MSU
OSU – MI, PSU, MSU, RU, UMD
MI – OSU, MSU, RU, PSU, UMD
MSU – MI, OSU, UMD, PSU, RU
The real problem with your plan is the lack of OSU/IL and MI/MN. The B10 could potentially also lock those 2 games, but I don’t think they would. History has diminished both rivalries (young fans don’t care at all), and they’ve already shown no inclination to lock them in the current alignment. On the surface balance looks like an issue since the Central pod teams missed all the kings and princes, but the math shows otherwise. They’d play NE, WI and IA 75% of the time each plus 2 of OSU, MI, PSU and MSU.
“The top two schools would then advance to the Big Ten Championship Game.”
With the caveat of #1 not having to face a rematch against a team they already beat, I’m OK with that. If #2 beat #1 during the season, I’m fine with the rematch (If #2 goes 2-0, they win the conference after proving they’re the better team. If #1 goes 1-1 and had the better rest of the season, they win it all as they should).
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The Pac 12 wants to play each other 9 games. Or at least they want to play 9 games so they get lots against the California schools. I don’t see them dropping California schools to play Iowa, let alone Indiana, Purdue and Rutgers.
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There have been grumblings from the P12 about them being the only ones playing 9 plus a CCG. They only did it so they could play in CA enough. I’m thinking they might try this:
N = UW, WSU, OR, OrSU
C = Cal, Stanford, UCLA, USC
S = AZ, ASU, CO, Utah
Round robin in pod, 2 games against each of the other pods (1 from each zipper location, ideally), plus 1 purely rotating game.
The CA schools keep their rivalries, plus everyone plays in CA at least once a year.
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That’s 7 games though.
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Nevermind… read the rest of it. I like the format a lot too.
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NW schools now play three in CA every two years, and giving up yearly to LA was/is a huge sacrifice. The southern division the same but is yearly in SoCal. The only schools that would go for it are the Cali schools, and they have nothing (CA access wise) to gain. They already bargained for and got 100% yearly.
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ccrider55,
“NW schools now play three in CA every two years, and giving up yearly to LA was/is a huge sacrifice. The southern division the same but is yearly in SoCal. The only schools that would go for it are the Cali schools, and they have nothing (CA access wise) to gain. They already bargained for and got 100% yearly.”
Check the math:
N = 3*100% (N pod) + 4*50% (S pod) + 4*50% (C pod) + 8*12.5% (S and C pods)
That’s 2.5 games against CA teams every year, or 2.5 in CA in 2 years. More importantly, it’s the exact same LA access as the S pod gets. Plus they free up an OOC game that can also be used to play a CA team (SDSU, Fresno, SJSU, etc) if they want. They also get the benefit of only having 4 road games in conference play every year. All those benefits versus losing 1 game in CA every 4 years is a tradeoff worth considering.
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The North (4 non Bay Area schools) are in the Bay Area every year, in LA every other year swapping H&H with USC and UCLA, and rotating misses against Zona’s and Mtn’s two years at a time over eight years. That’s in CA three times every two years with the every other year LA trip included. And they play six CA teams (home and away combined) every two years currently.
2.5<3
Perhaps I'm not understanding your math. What I do know is the non CA north looks at the reduced LA access they currently have as barely tolerable. There is more than a little P8 inertia and history still pervading. Many still call the AZs the newbies, and it'll be a long time before CO/UT completely own that label.
Picture the B12 adding two northern or NEish schools. Now ask the non texas schools (including OU) to only play once (rotating) in Texas and only host one of the other three Texas schools per year.
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ccrider55,
“The North (4 non Bay Area schools) are in the Bay Area every year, in LA every other year swapping H&H with USC and UCLA, and rotating misses against Zona’s and Mtn’s two years at a time over eight years. That’s in CA three times every two years with the every other year LA trip included. And they play six CA teams (home and away combined) every two years currently.”
Yes. None of that is in dispute. My plan gets them in LA and SF equally (SF or LA guaranteed every year, sometimes both) and almost as many total games in CA while giving them a spare game to play with and eliminating the chance of 5 P12 road games. It also takes away the LA access advantage of the AZ/Mtn schools.
“Perhaps I’m not understanding your math.”
Obviously not. I’m pointing out my plan gets them almost as much CA access while giving them multiple benefits. You’re so focused on the CA access that you ignore the rest of the picture.
“What I do know is the non CA north looks at the reduced LA access they currently have as barely tolerable.”
In part because the AZ/Mtn schools have annual access. My plan changes that.
“There is more than a little P8 inertia and history still pervading. Many still call the AZs the newbies, and it’ll be a long time before CO/UT completely own that label.”
And yet those 4 schools also have an equal say.
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“And yet those 4 schools also have an equal say.”
CU and Utah didn’t (officially) when divisions were created. And as I understand it what makes this more acceptable to the NW is that it hurts the Mtn and desert schools even more than the NW? Still seems to be eight against and four ambivalent.
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“With the caveat of #1 not having to face a rematch against a team they already beat, I’m OK with that. If #2 beat #1 during the season, I’m fine with the rematch (If #2 goes 2-0, they win the conference after proving they’re the better team. If #1 goes 1-1 and had the better rest of the season, they win it all as they should).”
From this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_table
Such tie-breaker could be represented using a “logical biconditional” truth table:
(a) Best Record
(b) Head-to-Head win vs. Best Record
Team A : 8-1 => T : F => T
Team B : 7-2 => F : T => T
Team C : 7-2 => F : F => F
But I could be wrong (it’s not false that (b) for Team A, it’s absurd).
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To clarify an earlier comment of mine: It would be dumb to forbid all rematches. Suppose in the above example that Team A had beat both Team B and Team C, but Team B had beat Team C, then the Conference Championship Game between would be a rematch between Team A and Team B.
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No, don’t allow that rematch. Team A shouldn’t have to beat anyone twice to win the conference. Team B or Team C having to win twice to win the conference is OK with me because they had other losses that put them behind a team that they beat.
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The truly worst case scenario would be if Team A (9-0) had beat Team B @ Team B and then Team B won the rematch @ the CCG neutral site.
Note that in Year 2009: Buffalo (5-3) beat Ball State (8-0) in the MAC Championship Game, even though Buffalo lost away to Central Michigan (6-2) and lost home to Western Michigan (6-2); whereas Ball State won away to Central Michigan and won home to Western Michigan; whereas Central Michigan won home to Western Michigan.
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I think it helps others more than the B10, so he should consider being against it out of gamesmanship.
The Big Ten will vote yes because, although they don’t need it now, they might very well need it in the future if they expand again. And as you’ve noted, even with 14 teams, the proposed rule opens up possibilities that could be better than a rigid divisional structure.
“The top two schools would then advance to the Big Ten Championship Game.”
With the caveat of #1 not having to face a rematch against a team they already beat, I’m OK with that. If #2 beat #1 during the season, I’m fine with the rematch (If #2 goes 2-0, they win the conference after proving they’re the better team. If #1 goes 1-1 and had the better rest of the season, they win it all as they should).
I agree, but there has to be a limit to this principle. If #1 beat #2, 3, 4, and 5, you don’t want a CCG that features #1 vs. #6.
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Marc Shepherd,
“The Big Ten will vote yes because, although they don’t need it now, they might very well need it in the future if they expand again.”
That’s your opinion, not a fact. There is no evidence that the B10 supported it when others approached the NCAA about a change.
“I agree, but there has to be a limit to this principle. If #1 beat #2, 3, 4, and 5, you don’t want a CCG that features #1 vs. #6.”
Yes, I do. That’s better to me than a rematch any day. That’s the downside of a CCG. Some/many years, you really don’t need one to name the best team. There is never a good enough reason why the top seed should have to go 2-0 over an opponent.
If the rules didn’t require it be for the title, I’d suggest having #2 play #3 in this case and give the title to #1.
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“Some/many years, you really don’t need one to name the best team.”
Precisely. If you aren’t doing an elimination (division champions) a CCG is unnecessary to do a BCS lite ranking and make a selection.
I agree that in the absence of divisions which may create one, a rematch should be avoided at all costs. A CCG doesn’t necessarily need the best possible matchup to decide the champion. It’s played to simply to decide the champ, and the second best may have already been beaten by the best.
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While I agree with you, the realities are that no conference will voluntarily give up a CCG. The only reason the B12 does not have one is they do not yet feel pressure to expand just to expand, and no available team makes financial sense to do so.
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There is evidence that the B1G wanted the CCG requirements changed before Nebraska was invited. The more teams a conference has the more restrictive the round robin requirement becomes to cross division scheduling, so support of the ACC proposal will keep options open for the B1G.
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Can you link to the evidence?
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Mack,
“There is evidence that the B1G wanted the CCG requirements changed before Nebraska was invited.”
Sure, when they had 11 teams and wanted to have a CCG. That would have been a free $25M/year for the B10. But they dropped the idea very quickly after some preliminary talks with the NCAA, IIRC. Just like the P12 dropped it and the B12 dropped it.
“The more teams a conference has the more restrictive the round robin requirement becomes to cross division scheduling,”
1. Nobody is forcing these conferences to expand.
2. Smart divisions make crossover scheduling less of an issue.
3. The price for expanding will always be playing old foes less often.
4. 6 division games is not restrictive to me. That’s only half of their schedule.
Nobody has gone past 14 and it seems unlikely in the near future (GoRs and such).
“so support of the ACC proposal will keep options open for the B1G.”
The B10 can always wait and support it later. They seem OK with the current arrangement, and saying yes would help a competitor significantly. If the B10 wants to take more ACC schools, helping the ACC make more money and become happier now isn’t wise. In addition, the changes might let the B12 add a CCG, too. That could cost the B10 some playoff spots.
Is the benefit to the B10 worth helping the ACC and B12 that much? It’s a question TPTB should consider.
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“If the B10 wants to take more ACC schools, helping the ACC make more money and become happier now isn’t wise.”
I’ll leave the happiness question alone, but I really doubt that loosening the requirements for a title game would make the ACC more money than the current arrangement. You’ll have to provide evidence and/or reasoning for that assertion.
BTW, the loosened requirements would also make adding a bloc of ACC schools easier for both the bloc of ACC schools and original B10 schools to accept.
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Richard,
“I’ll leave the happiness question alone, but I really doubt that loosening the requirements for a title game would make the ACC more money than the current arrangement. You’ll have to provide evidence and/or reasoning for that assertion.”
No round robin means they could play more of the prominent crossover games, which adds some value. No divisions means they could play more of the prominent games, which adds value. No divisions also means better CCGs, which adds value.
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“The Big Ten will vote yes because, although they don’t need it now, they might very well need it in the future if they expand again.”
That’s your opinion, not a fact. There is no evidence that the B10 supported it when others approached the NCAA about a change.
Well…sure, almost everything posted at FTT is an opinion. (It does get tedious to insert “In my opinion” before sentences that anyone ought to be able to clearly see is an opinion.)
But two things are pretty obvious. 1) The Big Ten is probably not done expanding (many presidents and ADs have said so); 2) The more teams you have, the harder it is to comply with the existing rule, preserve the rivalries everyone wants, and meet other obvious scheduling aims (all-play-all with reasonable frequency, spreading the king games around, etc.).
It is therefore not a great logical leap to suggest that the Big Ten might very well want to take advantage of greater scheduling flexibility, if it were available. Beyond that, the NCAA legislative tone in recent years has leaned towards removing rules and obstacles, not preserving and erecting them.
So although I’ll grant you it is merely an opinion, there is logic to it.
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Marc Shepherd,
“Well…sure, almost everything posted at FTT is an opinion.”
But much of it is informed opinion rather than just guesses that happen to exactly match your personal opinion.
“But two things are pretty obvious. 1) The Big Ten is probably not done expanding (many presidents and ADs have said so);”
Actually, that’s not obvious at all. The B10 may not be done trying to expand, but that doesn’t mean there are acceptable candidates that reciprocate the interest. Besides, TPTB really haven’t said they will expand again. They’ve said they’ll keep looking and that maybe 16 is more desirable in some ways.
“2) The more teams you have, the harder it is to comply with the existing rule, preserve the rivalries everyone wants, and meet other obvious scheduling aims (all-play-all with reasonable frequency, spreading the king games around, etc.).”
Yes. That’s a known cost of expansion. Most of that is also true regardless of the CCG.
“It is therefore not a great logical leap to suggest that the Big Ten might very well want to take advantage of greater scheduling flexibility, if it were available.”
Actually, it is. The B10 hasn’t expressed any dismay with the current arrangement, especially with a 9th game coming. If your competitor is suffering from the current rule and you aren’t, it isn’t always wise to help them out. Letting those aggravations could help the B10 with their larger goal of expanding. Then they could worry about changing the rule if they felt it necessary. Other than perhaps the ACC, nobody else would have reason to change their mind according to you.
“Beyond that, the NCAA legislative tone in recent years has leaned towards removing rules and obstacles, not preserving and erecting them.”
You keep claiming that, but they have made very few changes to shrink the rule book. It depends how important the NCAA feels this rule is. Multiple conferences have looked into changing it over the years and nothing has happened yet.
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“Well…sure, almost everything posted at FTT is an opinion.”
But much of it is informed opinion rather than just guesses that happen to exactly match your personal opinion.
“But two things are pretty obvious. 1) The Big Ten is probably not done expanding (many presidents and ADs have said so);”
Actually, that’s not obvious at all. . . .
While I do agree with you that they may fail to find appropriate candidates, the stated views of the PTB is quite a bit better than merely a “guess that happens to exactly match my personal opinion.”
“2) The more teams you have, the harder it is to comply with the existing rule, preserve the rivalries everyone wants, and meet other obvious scheduling aims (all-play-all with reasonable frequency, spreading the king games around, etc.).”
Yes. That’s a known cost of expansion. Most of that is also true regardless of the CCG.
But if you remove the current regulations around the scheduling of that game, it becomes easier to satisfy the other constraints that the league has always said it cares about.
“Beyond that, the NCAA legislative tone in recent years has leaned towards removing rules and obstacles, not preserving and erecting them.”
You keep claiming that, but they have made very few changes to shrink the rule book.
You cannot possibly be oblivious to all of the “Division 4” discussion and the reasons the P5 have for moving in that direction? This is not something I have just made up in the middle of the night.
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Marc Shepherd,
“While I do agree with you that they may fail to find appropriate candidates, the stated views of the PTB is quite a bit better than merely a “guess that happens to exactly match my personal opinion.””
And all these stated views that the B10 “probably isn’t done expanding” are where? Not that they’d keep looking, or that 16 may be better than 14, but actual statements that the B10 probably isn’t done expanding.
“But if you remove the current regulations around the scheduling of that game, it becomes easier to satisfy the other constraints that the league has always said it cares about.”
You still have more teams to cram into the same number of games. The CCG has no impact on that.
“You cannot possibly be oblivious to all of the “Division 4″ discussion and the reasons the P5 have for moving in that direction? This is not something I have just made up in the middle of the night.”
Actually, it is. They want to change rules to let them have more power and to spend more money. That isn’t shrinking the rule book, it’s altering it. Cutting the recruiting manual down to a pamphlet would be shrinking the rulebook, but their recent workgroup didn’t even trim 10% from the rules.
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“I agree, but there has to be a limit to this principle. If #1 beat #2, 3, 4, and 5, you don’t want a CCG that features #1 vs. #6.”
Yes, I do. That’s better to me than a rematch any day. That’s the downside of a CCG. Some/many years, you really don’t need one to name the best team. There is never a good enough reason why the top seed should have to go 2-0 over an opponent.
I’m trying to suggest a modification to your idea that has a shot at adoption. I can’t imagine a scenario where the CCG is canceled some years, if one team is so obviously dominant that the game is deemed unnecessary.
I also can’t imagine a scenario where they go down the list, without limit, to find a team (however terrible) that #1 hasn’t played yet, and then those two go to the CCG.
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Marc Shepherd,
“I’m trying to suggest a modification to your idea that has a shot at adoption.”
Your modification ruins the whole point of my idea while still not having a chance at being accepted (TPTB don’t care about rematches that much).
“I can’t imagine a scenario where the CCG is canceled some years, if one team is so obviously dominant that the game is deemed unnecessary.”
No, it’s a contractual obligation anyway.
“I also can’t imagine a scenario where they go down the list, without limit, to find a team (however terrible) that #1 hasn’t played yet, and then those two go to the CCG.”
Me neither, but it’s still the right thing to do.
Remember, you said *I* don’t want a #1 vs #6 CCG. I’m pointing out that you’re wrong because I’d be fine with it. The B10 definitely doesn’t want that game, though.
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Ignoring the absurdity of a team beating itself (although that could also be considered as a contradiction and thus false), a “logical biconditional” truth table could also represent the case that three teams are tied for the best record. If Team B beat Team A in head-to-head competition, but Team B and Team C did not play, then:
(a) Best Record
(b) Head-to-Head loss vs. Best Record
Team A : 8-1 => T : T => F
Team B : 8-1 => T : F => T
Team C : 8-1 => T : F => T
However, if Team C beat Team B, and Team A beat Team C, then:
Team A : 8-1 => T : T => F
Team B : 8-1 => T : T => F
Team C : 8-1 => T : T => F
In this case, the winning record (or percentage) could be compared among common opponents, or among all conference opponents, or winning away games, or simply coin tosses, whatever is given as priority among decision-makers.
In any case, I doubt if such truth tables would be used as the tiebreaker rules, rather it would help the rule-makers to articulate coherent rules (which otherwise makes the head hurt thinking about them).
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Really seems like we are headed in a direction that we will see less OOC matchups with the Power 5. Not sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. The match-ups will obviously still occur in post season but might be limited in September. I wouldn’t mind seeing more consolidation of conferences and moving to a 10 game conference schedule with 2 warm-up games. The only OOC will be played in the post season.
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The opposite is happening. Teams are starting to schedule more. TV and the playoffs are driving that.
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Fewer AQ vs AQ OOC games is definitely bad. The playoff seems to be preventing that from happening, though.
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Go Bucks.
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If there’s any silver lining to this latest NFL move, it is that (hopefully) it stems any further move by P5 conferences to have more games on Thursdays. I am pretty much a traditionalist when it comes to the day of the week to play college football. Saturdays and college football seem to go hand-in-hand. That’s one of things I’ve always admired about the B1G, which is their sticking to Saturdays for football. Yes, there are those Thanksgiving games but that’s an anomaly created by the calendar.
Thursdays are for MACtion like schools who really need the exposure since they can’t otherwise get it during a normal weekend.
I also think players need a two to three-month break after football season is over but I doubt that idea would fly with the major programs. I’m trying to find a way to explain Ted Agu’s passing.
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Yeah, and Thursday night games can’t be good for students.
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I actually like the Thursday night games. There is a build-up during the day, and you can discuss the game at work on Friday (assuming the local NFL team wasn’t playing on Thursday). By the time Monday rolls around, all anyone wants to talk about is the NFL. How did the local teams do, how their fantasy team did, how they did in their knockout pool, etc. The students in the stands also usually seem to be more into the Thursday night games more than the Saturday noon games.
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You’re not studying for classes and tests any more.
Perhaps I should have said “Thursday night games can’t be good for the academics of the students”. You know, the main purported reason why they’re attending college.
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Not as many Friday classes offered relative to Mondays – Thursdays. Most students can go 4 years having no more than 2 Friday classes. Professors don’t enjoy teaching them any more than hungover kids do attending them.
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Wainscott,
“Not as many Friday classes offered relative to Mondays – Thursdays.”
Evidence? My classes were MWF or TTh.
“Most students can go 4 years having no more than 2 Friday classes.”
Per term? Maybe. But they can also say the same about M-Th in many terms.
“Professors don’t enjoy teaching them any more than hungover kids do attending them.”
Actually, many professors prefer MWF classes because they’re shorter. They have to be at work anyway, so teaching isn’t a big deal. Many of them seem to enjoy having things due on Friday to force students to attend class or turn work in early.
I think Richard’s point is also about the large number of classes missed on Thursday. Many schools cancel classes to avoid logistical issues that night, and plenty of students skip classes to drink that afternoon.
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Most all of my classes were MW, T-Th with not many classes offered on Friday.
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@Brian:
“Evidence? My classes were MWF or TTh.”
Sorry to hear that. I once pulled off only MTuW classes. As for my evidence:
“Actually, many professors prefer MWF classes because they’re shorter. They have to be at work anyway, so teaching isn’t a big deal. Many of them seem to enjoy having things due on Friday to force students to attend class or turn work in early.”
The same NYT article: “”It went like this: faculty need Fridays free to do research, have committee meetings, etc.,” says John N. Gardner, executive director of the Policy Center on the First Year of College in Brevard, N.C. “And many administrations did not dare remove what had become another entitlement for the faculty.”
See also: http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/31/friday_goes_back_onto_the_calendar/?page=full : “Students and some faculty are grumbling about the take-back-Friday campaign.”
See also: http://www.azcentral.com/community/tempe/articles/2011/05/01/20110501asu-friday-classes.html : “Over the years, lukewarm interest in Friday classes from students and faculty has caused many colleges to scale back their Friday offerings.”
” Many schools cancel classes to avoid logistical issues that night, and plenty of students skip classes to drink that afternoon.”
Evidence of this?
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Wainscott,
“As for my evidence:”
A 9 year old article with anecdotal evidence? It’s something, but they make much bigger claims than they back up with evidence. They spend a lot of time talking about how schools are bringing back more Friday classes, too.
“The same NYT article: “”It went like this: faculty need Fridays free to do research, have committee meetings, etc.,” says John N. Gardner, executive director of the Policy Center on the First Year of College in Brevard, N.C. “And many administrations did not dare remove what had become another entitlement for the faculty.””
Like I said, at my schools they didn’t get Friday off. And from talking to many of them, they disliked TTH classes because they were 1.5 hours. Besides, most faculty don’t really do research so much as they supervise people doing research and beg for money from anyone and everyone.
Other schools may well be different. That’s why I asked.
“Evidence of this?”
A quick list of schools that have cancelled classes for Thursday night games from a Google search: WSU, Clemson, VT, MS St, FSU, UCF, AL
Those who didn’t from that same search: USC, SC
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When I was at Northwestern in the mid-90’s, Fridays weren’t lighter in classes than any other weekday.
I don’t know if things have changed or what it’s like at other schools.
However, a weeknight game is almost by definition more disruptive towards academics than a Saturday game.
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Another thing to consider, when there are more channels to show sports than before, not to mention the possible effects of streaming in the near future, how much of a factor does the need for exposure really be? For example: with BTN and then an over-the-air channel plus a cable channel like FS1, etc.. there should be enough outlets for fans to watch their teams play. ESpin wants you to think that only by your team being on their channel that their favorite team can get noticed. This is the game they play. Being a fan a team that had played in the old Big East I have experience of the consequences of this tactic being used. You see, the old B10 fans never had to deal with this problem on a major basis because you have a pretty good contract when it was originally signed and, thus, had leverage to force the Mouse to play correctly. Even then, they’ve managed to chop you down a size or two as they play up the SEC and whoever was the flavor of the month. In the old Big East and the mid-majors, the constant worry was always doing what’s most likely to get noticed and shown on the main channel. The fans of several BE teams spent a lot of time putting down other teams in the conference, more than critiquing their competition. This has contributed to the mistrust between the fan bases of the old BE. Too much poison to smooth over in the near future, IMO.
Then somebody brings up the idea of playing games on Thursdays and even Fridays or Wednesdays and everyone else wanted to play on those days, not thinking of the effects on studies…you know, the real reason to go to college. To me, it was like a caste system that was too eagerly accepted by myopic athletic programs, which I think contributed to the perception of the old BE as inferior.
But that’s all history now. Let the pros have Sundays, Mondays and Thursdays. They don’t have to worry about academics, Title 9 mandates or supporting Olympic sports. Saturdays are made for us to watch the teams do battle. If those yahoos in the southern states still want to take chances with moving the game days around, that’s their problem. B10 football is a Saturday tradition and should remain so.
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An update on the previous blog story:
http://triblive.com/news/adminpage/5556712-74/acc-maryland-filed#ixzz2sicfHGF5
Pitt must turn over the records by the end of March. Failing to comply could result in a court order.
The subpoena was filed with the North Carolina Superior Court. The ACC is headquartered in Greensboro, N.C.
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Blue!
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Pingback: More on ACC Scheduling | The Confidential
This is going to be an issue for the SEC, and the SEC Network is only going to make matters worse.
http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/02/sec_asks_espn_for_help_with_co.html
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Yet the B10 has had increased bball attendance for 4 straight years despite the BTN televising virtually every B10 bball game.
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“Yet the B10 has had increased bball attendance for 4 straight years despite the BTN televising virtually every B10 bball game.”
So? The Big Ten has far better basketball teams with a deeper history than their SEC brethren. SEC fans who are already not showing up will have even less of an incentive to now. By contrast, Big Ten fans are turning out to support teams, even with the game on. People like to go and support good teams.
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This is why the BTN is great for the B10 (maybe not for those who aren’t B10 fans, though). Just check what happened on NSD. If you wanted to know how the B10 programs did you had to either follow a recruiting website or watch BTN. ESPN only bothered to mention one or two B10 programs.
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I wrote stories about Florida and Georgia hoops when I worked for a Macon newspaper in 1977, and the SEC still hasn’t developed a sustained basketball culture beyond Kentucky, to a lesser extent Vanderbilt and more lately Florida. (Before Andy pipes in, I will say having Missouri on board should help, but attendance there is down, too; the SEC is an obvious boon to attendance in football, but beyond Kentucky and Florida, there hardly are any great draws, unlike the Big 12 with Kansas, Texas, K-State and even Iowa State.).
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I am really curious to see how successful the SEC Network will be. I know every sports reporter is gushing over it but they also were hailing the PAC network and its regional channels too and they have not yet turned profitable. The BIG as a conference has a few advantages that other conferences lack in that they not only have popular football but basketball as well. You couple that with the biggest enrollment of any conference with a huge alumni base, and the BIG has a natural fan base to watch nonrevenue sports on top the revenue giants.
The SEC has football and that’s about it plus a smaller alumni base. Some SEC fans will cite baseball but outside a couple of schools, I wonder how much fan interest there really is? Here is an article about college baseball. http://seamheads.com/2012/07/18/college-baseball-economics/. The most telling quote is this:
“In other words, football games and then those in men’s basketball, ice hockey, and lacrosse provided more money from ticket sales, their conferences, and other outside sources than did baseball.”
Now that is averaged and doesn’t take it too account specific school and regional interest but thought it interesting that as a revenue generator baseball was behind lacrosse of all things. So content wise, the SEC network is really all about selling a couple of football games. That should be enough in the gulf states but the question will be elsewhere in Florida, Texas, and Missouri.
The SEC network will be successful but I wonder about how much so.
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@Psuhockey – I really have little doubt that the SEC Network will do perfectly fine. The Pac-12 simply has *significantly* weaker fan bases than both the SEC and Big Ten by comparison. Also, the SEC Network is more than just a few football games – they’re moving the entire syndicated game-of-the-week package to that channel (just as the BTN took over the syndicated games that were previously on ESPN Plus) and the plans are that they will have at least 3 football games every week. As a result, not carrying that channel in the South is going to end up being a non-starter for cable companies – ESPN can ask for a massive price and they’ll likely get it even if the network won’t attract many viewers outside of football season. Speaking of which, I think a lot of us have been sandbagging the SEC’s interest in college basketball quite a bit. While they’re not at the ACC or Big Ten levels of basketball fandom, the SEC still has a monster basketball brand (Kentucky), a new school power in a massive market (Florida), and strong fan bases in solid markets (Tennessee, Missouri, Arkansas). I honestly believe that Florida Gator basketball is a larger draw throughout the state of Florida than Illini basketball (or Big Ten basketball overall) is throughout the state of Illinois (the largest Big Ten state by population), and that alone is an indicator that the SEC Network will be just fine after football season is over.
The only open question for me is how much penetration the SEC Network will be able to obtain in its newest states (Texas and Missouri) and at what price point. I could see it being similar to how the BTN is provided at a lower price point in the Philadelphia market compared to the rest of the Big Ten footprint. The legacy SEC states, though, are effectively locks for SEC Network carriage and ESPN can essentially name its price.
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The figure for the SEC Network within its footprint was reported at $1.30 per subscriber.
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2014/01/13/Media/SEC-net.aspx
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Also, an interesting breakdown on the BTN situation in New Jersey (from 2012, but still ver informative).
http://www.onthebanks.com/2012/12/6/3674206/project-big-ten-network
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SEC basketball is essentially the equivalent of ACC football — one king brand (Kentucky/Florida State), one usually nationally prominent program (Florida/Clemson), one-time national powers that have seen better days (Louisiana State/Miami), and a bunch of schools that view the sport as something to pass the time but otherwise have little emotional interest. The analogy breaks down somewhat, to be sure, but on the whole it’s the same.
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“…but they also were hailing the PAC network and its regional channels too and they have not yet turned profitable.”
Source? My recollection was it was guaranteed to be in the black before it even started or had sold a single ad. It had something like $100M in startup costs (representing the schools ownership equity) so there isn’t likely much distribution for a time. It is eighteen months old. Was the BTN raking it in at that time?
The SECN is completely ESPN owned. It’ll be as successful as ESPN chooses to make it.
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The SECN programming model will be similar to the ESPN model, here is a random February day. They’ll have a better product than the BTN, and the channel will be run in general than the BTN, and ESPN has more leverage and power to make it successful. Per team yearly distributions will likely be similar for SECN and BTN, after a couple years of ramping up. BTN has a lot of dead time that will be outdone by Bristol.
6am to noon: SEC Tonight highlight show repeated
1pm – coaches show
2pm – coaches show
3pm – the 1985 Auburn football team in review
4pm – talking heads arguing about the best SEC recruiting
5pm – talking heads arguing about the best SEC team
6pm – some kind of live game
8pm – some kind of live game
10pm – SEC Tonight – SEC highlight show
11pm – Recruiting Today – recruiting and medical redshirt news
12pm – SEC Tonight repeat
2am – live sports repeat
4am – live sports repeat
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Psuhockey,
“I am really curious to see how successful the SEC Network will be.”
Spectacularly. It’ll outperform the BTN in a footprint vs footprint comparison.
“The SEC has football and that’s about it plus a smaller alumni base. Some SEC fans will cite baseball but outside a couple of schools, I wonder how much fan interest there really is?”
I’m not an SEC fan but I live in Atlanta. College baseball is all over the expanded basic package on cable every spring down here. The regional sports networks carry lots of it plus there some syndicated games. The ESPN family also carries it.
In terms of attendance, SEC teams were #1-5, 8, 11, 15, 21, 25, 31, 33 and 34 in 2013. That includes the only team over 10k, the only 4 over 7k and the only 5 over 6k. Only 1 non-SEC school topped 5k.
MBB also will be a serious draw. And don’t forget softball and women’s gymnastics. All of these are regularly televised down here already.
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Over 4 times as many colleges field Div. I Baseball teams compared to Lacrosse or Hockey. The average revenue per team may be less but the total revenue and interest is higher in baseball and that is what is important for TV. However, all of these sports are filler with football and to a lesser extent basketball being the revenue generators for conference sports networks.
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It really is hard to compare unless you tabulated school by school revenue for hockey in the BIG versus baseball in the SEC or lacrosse for the matter.
The current struggles of the LHN, and to a lesser degree the PACN, makes me question the overall profitability of the SECN, especially when you have idiots like Clay Travis predicting $70 mil a year per school by the end of the decade. The SEC strength of the football is not thru alumni as most a much smaller schools than the BIG, but thru t-shirt fans. Those t-shirt fans for the most part care only about football. So how much are a couple of football games worth to them and more importantly the how much the cable companys think they are worth to them. The LHN was charging I believe $0.34 a month in Texas with other popular sports like basketball and baseball and had trouble. The SECN is going for $1.34. Now they will get the gulf states no question but what about Texas, Florida, and Missouri, where a large percentage of the in footprint population resides.
Couple that with the current market for pay television, with many subscribers canceling their service and cable companies fighting to keep costs down, I just question how much money it really will make.
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Really, the only state where the SECN will struggle for carriage at the full rate is probably TX. _Maybe_ the urban markets of KC and StL (where they will probably get on at a lower rate, like the BTN in Philly). In TX, the SECN almost certainly will have to settle for a lower rate if they want to get on any of the urban markets there.
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I forgot to add:
However, that’s a big caveat. TX is a huge part of the SEC footprint.
Without TX, the SEC footprint lags behind the B10 footprint in population considerably.
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Interesting study on the accuracy on recruiting rankings:
http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2014/2/5/5382140/recruiting-matters-why-the-sites-get-the-rankings-right
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Note: Anyone wanting a nice visual of the rivalries between teams, look at this old post mgoblue (hurts to write that 🙂 ) http://mgoblog.com/content/hokepoints-wants-divisions-consensus
I like your list of 3 protected Frank, but I’d make a few alterations. I think if you lock 3, you have to do the Little Brown Jug (more important than Minnesota-Nebraska). While you are at that, you may as well keep the Illibuck and Michigan State-Indiana. With those 3 in, you have every rivalry/trophy game in besides Penn State vs. Michigan State, Penn State vs. Minnesota, and Wisconsin vs. Northwestern. The ones in parenthesis are the ones I think can very easily could go a different direction (basically I filled out the rest and went back for those).
Roughly from east to west
Maryland: Rutgers, Penn State, (Purdue)
Rutgers: Maryland, Penn State, (Nebraska)
Penn State: Ohio State, Maryland, Rutgers
Ohio State: Michigan, Penn State, Illinois
Michigan: Ohio State, Michigan State, Minnesota
Michigan State: Michigan, Indiana, (Northwestern)
Indiana: Purdue, Michigan State, (Northwestern)
Purdue: Indiana, Illinois, (Maryland)
Illinois: Ohio State, Northwestern, Purdue
Northwestern: Illinois, (Michigan State), (Indiana)
Minnesota: Michigan, Iowa, Wisconsin
Wisconsin: Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota
Iowa: Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska
Nebraska: Wisconsin, Iowa, (Maryland)
Logic on the choices in parenthesis.
1. Nebraska is the only king with an open spot and you want to get them in one of the large markets. Chicago would work, but you already have a lot more influence there thanks to so many programs/alumni closer by. I choose Nebraska vs. Rutgers because if you are ever going to hit the New York market, you need big names there often.
2. Michigan State is the next biggest of the programs you have left, but they aren’t at king level. I think their name is probably a lot more valuable in Chicago than in Washington D.C.
3. That leaves one spot each for Northwestern, Purdue, Indiana, and Maryland. Indiana and Purdue are already locked so one has to play Northwestern and the other Maryland. Pretty much picked this part at random.
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FYI, if there is any B10 team that is a must-have annual game for Northwestern, it’s actually Iowa.
What makes it tough for Northwestern is that Iowa already has 3 locked-in rivals in UNL, Minny, and Bucky.
That’s why I don’t see anything wrong with 5 locked rivals (which would still allow everyone to play everyone else at least 50% of the time with a 9-game conference slate). That would also allow an annual game between Iowa-Illinois, 2 locked kings for each king (annual UNL-PSU and UNL-Michigan games, which would be great for TV) and still lock each non-king with at least one king.
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FYI, if there is any B10 team that is a must-have annual game for Northwestern, it’s actually Iowa. . . .besides Illinois, that is, though for younger fans and students, the Iowa game is a bigger deal than the LOL trophy game.
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“That’s why I don’t see anything wrong with 5 locked rivals (which would still allow everyone to play everyone else at least 50% of the time with a 9-game conference slate).”
What’s wrong is the large number of unnecessarily locked games.
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I’d rather have that than not lock Northwestern-Iowa.
I’m fairly indifferent about the difference between Minny/Wisconsin/IU/PU/MSU/RU/UMD/PSU or the difference between UNL/UM/OSU, so if making Iowa an annual game means locking some of those and not locking others, so be it.
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How many of the 14 schools do you honestly think would prefer 5 locked games to just 3?
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Assuming that the 3 locks are the ones I had specified):
UNL (adds PSU . . and UM)
Iowa (adds Illinois and Northwestern)
PSU (adds UNL)
UM (adds UNL)
Illinois (can play all of NU, Iowa, PU, & IU now. Maybe Wisconsin as well)
Northwestern (adds Iowa)
Whatever schools want more East Coast access (which could be any/all of UM/OSU/MSU/PU/IU/Wisconsin) as they can have a locked game with either RU or UMD now.
If it’s off of Frank’s 3 locks, a whole bunch of them.
Take my list above and add
MSU (to lock with NU for the frequent visits to Chicagoland)
Minny (LBJ game)
Michigan (LBJ game)
Illinois (Illibuck)
OSU (Illibuck)
Furthermore, the B10 office would love to have the permanent king vs. king games of
OSU-PSU, UM-OSU, UM-UNL, & PSU-UNL.
If they want to send more kings east, that’s more easily accomplished with 5 locks rather than 3 locks as well.
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Richard,
“Assuming that the 3 locks are the ones I had specified):
UNL (adds PSU . . and UM)”
I highly doubt they want to lock 2 kings plus 2 princes every year. Certainly Pelini doesn’t.
“Iowa (adds Illinois and Northwestern)”
IL is way down their list, and so is NW. They’d still play them regularly no matter what.
“PSU (adds UNL)
UM (adds UNL)”
As with NE, I doubt these schools want 2 locked kings either.
“Whatever schools want more East Coast access (which could be any/all of UM/OSU/MSU/PU/IU/Wisconsin) as they can have a locked game with either RU or UMD now.”
Yeah, I have yet to see any B10 school clamor for a locked game with either one. Regular access is enough for almost everyone.
If it’s off of Frank’s 3 locks, a whole bunch of them.
Take my list above and add
MSU (to lock with NU for the frequent visits to Chicagoland)
“Minny (LBJ game)
Michigan (LBJ game)
Illinois (Illibuck)
OSU (Illibuck)”
In general, these schools have lost interest in these games. The older almuni care, but that’s about it. They aren’t important enough for others to get fewer games against OSU and MI to preserve them.
“Furthermore, the B10 office would love to have the permanent king vs. king games of
OSU-PSU, UM-OSU, UM-UNL, & PSU-UNL.”
They could have had them but opted not to this time.
“If they want to send more kings east, that’s more easily accomplished with 5 locks rather than 3 locks as well.”
More free games also means more trips east, and to both equally.
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“I highly doubt they want to lock 2 kings plus 2 princes every year. Certainly Pelini doesn’t.”
Pelini isn’t the one making these decisions, is he?
“IL is way down their list, and so is NW. They’d still play them regularly no matter what.”
Huge difference between 60% of the time and annually.
“As with NE, I doubt these schools want 2 locked kings either.”
The B10 office does. You’re not a very good barometer of what will happen, Brian, since, if it was up to you, you’d get rid of OSU-PSU and we know that there’s no way the B10 office would do that.
Also, Legends and Leaders was set up in a way so that each king would have 2 annual games against another king. If the B10 didn’t have to have divisions, I’m sure they’d try to do that again.
“Yeah, I have yet to see any B10 school clamor for a locked game with either one. Regular access is enough for almost everyone.”
I’m going off of Frank saying that the B10 thinks Eastern exposure is a priority.
“In general, these schools have lost interest in these games. The older almuni care, but that’s about it. They aren’t important enough for others to get fewer games against OSU and MI to preserve them.”
Almost no difference between playing a team 60% of the time and playing a team 50% of the time. Certainly not worth sacrificing the LBJ and Illibuck for.
“More free games also means more trips east, and to both equally.”
Not as many.
1 + .5 = 1.5 > .6 + .6 = 1.2 (I almost don’t count PSU because they are in the mountains and hard to reach from the cities on the East Coast).
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Richard,
“Pelini isn’t the one making these decisions, is he?”
I haven’t heard any of the decision makers at NE claim they wanted those games either.
“Huge difference between 60% of the time and annually.”
About 40%.
“The B10 office does.”
Which isn’t what I asked you. I asked you what you thought the schools wanted.
“You’re not a very good barometer of what will happen, Brian, since, if it was up to you, you’d get rid of OSU-PSU and we know that there’s no way the B10 office would do that.”
Too bad I didn’t propose my personal preferences.
“Also, Legends and Leaders was set up in a way so that each king would have 2 annual games against another king.”
And E/W wasn’t. NE got none.
If the B10 didn’t have to have divisions, I’m sure they’d try to do that again.
“I’m going off of Frank saying that the B10 thinks Eastern exposure is a priority.”
Yes, but you claimed some schools would want locked games with RU/UMD. This wasn’t about what the B10 wanted.
“Almost no difference between playing a team 60% of the time and playing a team 50% of the time. Certainly not worth sacrificing the LBJ and Illibuck for.”
The other schools gain nothing from keeping them and none of the 4 schools involved care that much about keeping them. Why should IN cost themselves home games against OSU and MI to preserve Illibuck if OSU and IL don’t really care?
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“I haven’t heard any of the decision makers at NE claim they wanted those games either.”
Somebody wanted them. Otherwise, why were PSU-UNL locked with L&L?
“Which isn’t what I asked you. I asked you what you thought the schools wanted.”
What the schools want will be to a fair extent what the B10 wants. In this conference, individual schools understand that subsuming individual goals for the greater good leads to a stronger league.
“The other schools gain nothing from keeping them and none of the 4 schools involved care that much about keeping them. Why should IN cost themselves home games against OSU and MI to preserve Illibuck if OSU and IL don’t really care?”
Actually, the beauty of 5 locked games is that everyone has at least one lock with a king. In my 5-lock setup, I have PU locked with OSU and IU locked with PSU (you can flip them if you like).
That’s better than both my and Frank’s 3-lock setups for the IN schools, where neither of those 2 schools lock with any king (and thus both schools would play kings in aggregate less often).
Also dropping from 60% of the time to 50% of the time is a difference of 1 home game every 20 years. 20 years from now, I say the odds are good that the scheduling philosophy would have been torn up at least once. Run the numbers, and you’ll see how silly it is to argue that it would cost schools more home games with kings.
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“Huge difference between 60% of the time and annually.”
About 40%.
Indeed. The difference between maintaining a rivalry atmosphere and letting a rivalry lapse. Ask UNL and OU fans if their series felt like a rivalry any more after they started playing each other only half the time.
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@Richard:
One point:
“Somebody wanted them. Otherwise, why were PSU-UNL locked with L&L?”
They were locked because the Big Ten wanted two Kings locked in order to kick off a rivalry, because ESPN/ABC wanted that game, and because they were then the two most recent additions to the conference (with the resulting lack of established conference rival).
See: http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/38101/nebraska-penn-state-revisit-shared-history (“So there is some interesting history here, and the Big Ten is hoping this series becomes a rivalry by making Penn State and Nebraska into a protected annual cross-division matchup. Both programs are also the most recent additions to the league, with the Nittany Lions joining in 1990 and the Huskers now competing in their first year of Big Ten play. “)
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Richard,
“What the schools want will be to a fair extent what the B10 wants. In this conference, individual schools understand that subsuming individual goals for the greater good leads to a stronger league.”
Schools have individual desires. They are willing to compromise for the greater good, but that doesn’t change what they’d prefer. I asked you what they’d prefer on an individual level.
“Actually, the beauty of 5 locked games is that everyone has at least one lock with a king.”
The beauty to you, anyway.
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The main issue that I see with 5 locked games in a non-divisional setup is that we’re just one game away from the 6 locked games that we have for divisions (7 locked games in the cases of Indiana and Purdue). As a result, if you have that many locked games, you might as well just keep the divisions at that point. The main intent that I had with the 3 locked rivals setup was to preserve the most critical games and then allow for a more frequent rotation of opponents throughout the rest of the conference. Flexibility is a bigger deal to me in a non-divisional setup than the preservation of the lower-tier rivalries. If we have lots of locked games, then keeping the divisions and its K.I.S.S. geographic split is preferable.
Regardless of what the Big Ten would choose, though, I believe that all conferences should at least have the option to not have divisions and still hold a conference championship game. Even if the Big Ten chose to keep divisions in a 14-school conference, they would (and should) want to keep all options open if it ever went to 16 schools.
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Frank the Tank,
“The main issue that I see with 5 locked games in a non-divisional setup is that we’re just one game away from the 6 locked games that we have for divisions (7 locked games in the cases of Indiana and Purdue). As a result, if you have that many locked games, you might as well just keep the divisions at that point. The main intent that I had with the 3 locked rivals setup was to preserve the most critical games and then allow for a more frequent rotation of opponents throughout the rest of the conference. Flexibility is a bigger deal to me in a non-divisional setup than the preservation of the lower-tier rivalries. If we have lots of locked games, then keeping the divisions and its K.I.S.S. geographic split is preferable.
I’m with you on that. Locking 5 games defeats the purpose of dropping divisions.
My pod arrangement above was a compromise between your plan and Richard’s (locks 5 in the E to keep the kings in NYC and DC a lot but only 3 in the West and Central), but I realize it has little to no chance of being implemented.
“Regardless of what the Big Ten would choose, though, I believe that all conferences should at least have the option to not have divisions and still hold a conference championship game.”
My preferences in order:
1. Nobody gets a CCG – you just don’t need one (this genie is out of the bottle, unfortunately).
2. Every league of at least 12 teams can have one.
3. Every league of 12+ must have one (level playing field for the playoff).
4. Any league can have one.
If they require divisions to have a CCG, then I think the round robin requirement should stay.
“Even if the Big Ten chose to keep divisions in a 14-school conference, they would (and should) want to keep all options open if it ever went to 16 schools.”
They can keep their options open later while still saying no now.
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“They can keep their options open later while still saying no now.”
But why do that? The conferences and the commissioners all have to work together on a whole host of issues. If this is something the ACC proposes, and absent strong feelings against by the B1G, why say no just for some potential strategic advantage/gamesmanship? If nothing else, there will come a time the B1G wants to propose something, and the ACC or another conference could respond in kind to that proposal. No need for that, especially when the conferences have so many things that they work on (enforcement rules, inter-conference scheduling/challenges, academic matters, and a host of other issues). Same goes for the individual schools, who work with schools all across the country, regardless of athletic prowess. Conferences and schools need to be good neighbors, and if the B1G thinks the proposal is good for them, then it should approve it, regardless if it may be better for the ACC.
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Wainscott,
“But why do that? … why say no just for some potential strategic advantage/gamesmanship?”
Asked and answered. Helping your competition isn’t always wise, especially if you’re trying to steal some of their members.
“If nothing else, there will come a time the B1G wants to propose something, and the ACC or another conference could respond in kind to that proposal.”
Like home semifinal games? A conference champs requirement in the playoff? Real oversigning restrictions? The B10 gets shut down regularly by the others.
“Conferences and schools need to be good neighbors, and if the B1G thinks the proposal is good for them, then it should approve it, regardless if it may be better for the ACC.”
But is it good for them now, or is only potentially good for them later? The B10 seems happy with the current plan, especially since they want OSU and MI playing in NYC and DC a lot. The 9th game helps them with TV and eases concerns over rivalries fading.
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“Helping your competition isn’t always wise, especially if you’re trying to steal some of their members.”
That’s the issue. You think the B1G should view other conferences as competition to be vanquished, like an opposing army. I, and others, view them as part-competitors, part-collaborators. Yes, the B1G recruited Maryland from the ACC–yet the ACC still plays the B1G -ACC challenge, and the schools still schedule each other. Delany and Swofford know it wasn’t personal–it was strictly business–the same business Swofford himself did when raiding the Big East.
There is more to be lost, long term, by being ornery and disagreeable just for gamesmanship. Delany knows that, and I think the other conference commissioners know that too.
Now, if the B1G has legitimate feelings in opposition, that’s a different situation. But if agnostic, or if its supportive because it helps them, then voting no would be a mistake.
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Wainscott,
“That’s the issue. You think the B1G should view other conferences as competition to be vanquished, like an opposing army.”
I didn’t say anything about vanquishing them. But the ACC is a business enemy, especially if the B10 truly wants to add UVA and UNC. That’s why the ACC also tried to steal some B10 schools.
“Yes, the B1G recruited Maryland from the ACC–yet the ACC still plays the B1G -ACC challenge, and the schools still schedule each other. Delany and Swofford know it wasn’t personal–it was strictly business–the same business Swofford himself did when raiding the Big East.”
Nor would it be personal to not help the ACC now. It’s just a business decision. Personal would be voting no just to spite Swofford.
“There is more to be lost, long term, by being ornery and disagreeable just for gamesmanship.”
Is there? You say that, but what exactly would the B10 be missing out on in the future? What grand changes does the B10 want that they would get if only they were nicer to the ACC now? Their biggest request lately was home semifinals and the ACC was no help there.
“Delany knows that, and I think the other conference commissioners know that too.”
Is that why they all go behind each others’ backs and do whatever is best for their conference?
“But if agnostic, or if its supportive because it helps them, then voting no would be a mistake.”
If they’re agnostic on the issue for the B10, shouldn’t the business concerns I mentioned then become a deciding factor? You assume they should default to helping the ACC, but have given no evidence of what they would do for the B10 outside of this issue. What vote from the ACC would this buy for the B10? What makes you think there is any issue the ACC would change their stance on because of this?
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That’s the issue. You think the B1G should view other conferences as competition to be vanquished, like an opposing army. I, and others, view them as part-competitors, part-collaborators. Yes, the B1G recruited Maryland from the ACC–yet the ACC still plays the B1G -ACC challenge, and the schools still schedule each other. Delany and Swofford know it wasn’t personal–it was strictly business–the same business Swofford himself did when raiding the Big East.
I think Wainscott has captured the way the leagues, in practice, behave towards one another. One of these days, the Big Ten might steal another school or two out from under Swofford’s nose. But until then, it’s a “you scratch my back, and (if I can) I’ll scratch yours” world.
Even if the Big Ten were being Machiavellian, it’s far from clear to me that they are better off standing in the way of Swofford’s proposal. If they oppose a rule that they know they might actually want to take advantage of in the future, it might not be so easy to get it passed the next time.
It might be easier to get the 15th and 16th schools approved, knowing that it is no longer necessary to have divisions, because, as we’ve seen, scheduling 16 with static divisions is hard, and coming up with attractive pods can also be hard. If they wait till they have 16 to ask for it, it might take years, because the NCAA legislative process is notoriously slow.
“If nothing else, there will come a time the B1G wants to propose something, and the ACC or another conference could respond in kind to that proposal.”
Like home semifinal games? A conference champs requirement in the playoff? Real oversigning restrictions? The B10 gets shut down regularly by the others.
Sure, as part of the regular legislative give-and-take, no one gets everything they want.
But each of your examples has an immediate winner and loser. If the playoff is limited to conference champs, then the SEC can’t qualify two teams in the same year; with the rule that was eventually passed, they can. There’s a legitimate argument either way, with both sides preferring the rule that maximizes their competitive chances, here and now.
There’s no way Jim Delany is going to go into an NCAA meeting, and say: “I oppose Swofford’s proposal, because I still plan to pilfer at least two of his teams, at some point in the future. Any rule change that makes his league more successful is therefore against my best interests, so I vote no.”
So Delany would have to go in with totally fabricated reasons he does not in any way believe, that might even be totally contrary to his real long-term needs. This, as far as I can tell, is not the way the leagues generally operate with respect to one another.
In contrast, for the rules Brian mentioned (semifinals, playoffs, over-signing), the southern schools’ position is largely sincere, whether or not you personally like them.
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“You assume they should default to helping the ACC, but have given no evidence of what they would do for the B10 outside of this issue. What vote from the ACC would this buy for the B10? What makes you think there is any issue the ACC would change their stance on because of this?”
I have no need to supply evidence, because Its the unknown that encourages conferences to play nice with another. Who knows what issues might arise in 18 months where the B1G will need ACC support? Sometimes, you have to go along to get along.
What I do know, however, is that needless gamesmanship would come back to haunt the B1G some day. Maybe not today, maybe not two years from now, but some day. Karma is a bitch.
And remember, we focus on a small portion of things. You are looking at it in the context of athletics, which is the point of this blog and why we are here. However, in this context, I’m looking at it in the broader context of universities dealing with other universities. Presidents know other presidents, have worked with other presidents, and presidents ultimately run the show. Big Ten universities work on a host of non-athletic matters with other universities–for example, many ACC schools are in the AAU, as are most B1G schools. Presidents don’t want to have to deal with the sports departments not getting along, because they have other, more pressing matters to deal with, and don’t want the athletic departments potentially poisoning those relationships.
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Marc Shepherd,
“Even if the Big Ten were being Machiavellian, it’s far from clear to me that they are better off standing in the way of Swofford’s proposal.”
Nor is it clear they’re better off approving it.
“If they oppose a rule that they know they might actually want to take advantage of in the future, it might not be so easy to get it passed the next time.”
1. Could you put more conditionals into that? How can anyone not know that they might want to do something at some undetermined point in the future? They would literally have to vote for everything ever proposed by that logic.
2. More narrowly, they don’t know they’ll ever expand again.
3. If they do expand again, they don’t know they won’t want divisions.
4. Why would it magically get harder to pass in the future? Because suddenly the ACC will change their minds about wanting it? Others will?
“It might be easier to get the 15th and 16th schools approved, knowing that it is no longer necessary to have divisions,”
The expansion decision is bigger than FB scheduling. The presidents will decide on larger issues (institutional fit, money, etc) and worry about the scheduling later.
“because, as we’ve seen, scheduling 16 with static divisions is hard,”
Not necessarily it isn’t. Depending on the schools added, preserving certain rivalries may be difficult. 7 locked plus 2 rotating is pretty simple.
EX. 2 eastern schools added (like UVA and UNC)
W = NE, WI, IA, MN, NW, IL, PU, IN
E = OSU, MI, MSU, PSU, RU, UMD + 2 newbies
Is that difficult? Since they’ve established the E/W pattern, I think this concern has become much smaller to them.
“and coming up with attractive pods can also be hard.”
Again, it depends on the teams.
“If they wait till they have 16 to ask for it, it might take years, because the NCAA legislative process is notoriously slow.”
Which they’re already in the process of changing, plus you’ve already argued for why everyone else would support it so this should be a slam dunk whenever they ask.
“Sure, as part of the regular legislative give-and-take, no one gets everything they want.”
What’s the last thing the B10 wanted (not the AQs as a group, just the B10) that got approved?
I’ve seen give from the B10, but where’s the take?
“But each of your examples has an immediate winner and loser.”
So does the ACC getting their way on this.
“So Delany would have to go in with totally fabricated reasons he does not in any way believe,”
No, he wouldn’t. First, Delany doesn’t vote on NCAA rule changes. Second, since when is every voter required to explain their vote? Third, since when aren’t there any legitimate reasons to vote no?
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“But each of your examples has an immediate winner and loser.”
So does the ACC getting their way on this.
No, it doesn’t. If Swofford’s proposal passes, he’s an immediate winner, but the Big Ten loses nothing.
Your argument is that, 10+ years in the future, the Big Ten might find it harder to dismember the ACC. Even if true, that’s not an “immediate” effect.
“So Delany would have to go in with totally fabricated reasons he does not in any way believe,”
No, he wouldn’t. First, Delany doesn’t vote on NCAA rule changes.
I was using Delany as a proxy for the whole Big Ten. I do realize that he doesn’t cast a vote, but I think it fair to say he is an influential party to the internal discussions in which the Big Ten formulates its collective position, if it has one.
Second, since when is every voter required to explain their vote?</em
These legislative proposals are all first debated in a committee, on which I am fairly sure the Big Ten has representation. In that type of setting, it would be unusual to vote 'no' without giving reasons.
Third, since when aren’t there any legitimate reasons to vote no?
I was taking your premise at face value, namely, that the Big Ten’s main reason for opposing the proposal would be that it makes it harder for them to poach the ACC in the future.
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Wainscott,
“I have no need to supply evidence,”
Yes, heaven forbid you should have to support your argument.
“because Its the unknown that encourages conferences to play nice with another.”
You mean like secretly stealing teams from each other? Or punishing exiting members via bad scheduling and protracted lawsuits?
“Sometimes, you have to go along to get along.”
Sometimes you don’t. When a business has an edge over a competitor, it usually tries to maximize that advantage instead of voluntarily giving part of it away.
“What I do know, however, is that needless gamesmanship would come back to haunt the B1G some day.”
It’s not needless. There is a definite point to it.
“And remember, we focus on a small portion of things. You are looking at it in the context of athletics, which is the point of this blog and why we are here. However, in this context, I’m looking at it in the broader context of universities dealing with other universities.”
Don’t give me this crap about you seeing the bigger picture. You’ve been intentionally ignoring the bigger picture I’m looking at. We’re mainly talking athletics because we’re talking about athletics conferences making a decision about athletics.
“Big Ten universities work on a host of non-athletic matters with other universities”
None of which would be impacted by how B10 schools vote on this issue. It’s funny how you assume the B10 should be nice because that’s how schools act, and then justify it by discussing all the repercussions other schools would visit on the B10 for voting a certain way.
“Presidents don’t want to have to deal with the sports departments not getting along,”
They don’t have to. They have many more important things to discuss. It’s not like the presidents of OSU and MI can’t be together because the teams hate each other.
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Marc Shepherd,
“No, it doesn’t. If Swofford’s proposal passes, he’s an immediate winner, but the Big Ten loses nothing.”
I disagree. If the ACC wins, all their competitors lose a little as a result.
“Your argument is that, 10+ years in the future, the Big Ten might find it harder to dismember the ACC. Even if true, that’s not an “immediate” effect.”
The effect is immediate, it just wouldn’t be recognized until the GoR was ending.
“These legislative proposals are all first debated in a committee, on which I am fairly sure the Big Ten has representation. In that type of setting, it would be unusual to vote ‘no’ without giving reasons.”
Any one person can vote no and it isn’t a big deal. Are you claiming the whole ACC will be in an uproar if the president of NW is against the proposal in committee?
“I was taking your premise at face value, namely, that the Big Ten’s main reason for opposing the proposal would be that it makes it harder for them to poach the ACC in the future.”
Main reason doesn’t mean sole reason.
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@Brian:
““I have no need to supply evidence,”
Yes, heaven forbid you should have to support your argument.”
Heaven forbid I acknowledge I’m not privy to all the matters in which athletic conferences need to cooperate on and spew off about gamesmanship for the sake of gamesmanship.
““because Its the unknown that encourages conferences to play nice with another.”
You mean like secretly stealing teams from each other? Or punishing exiting members via bad scheduling and protracted lawsuits?”
Punishing existing members and protracted lawsuits is a intra-conference matter and not relevant here. And all schools are free agents, free to contract with another conference. No conference has a birthright on any team, and yes, teams leaving is part of the territory. Conferences know that, since every major conference has added teams over time, and all have lost members, too.
““Sometimes, you have to go along to get along.”
Sometimes you don’t. When a business has an edge over a competitor, it usually tries to maximize that advantage instead of voluntarily giving part of it away.”
But you never provided any evidence that the Big Ten is a loser if the ACC’s proposal is adopted, and you also take it on faith the ACC will actually benefit from the proposal, instead of giving itself a whole new batch of scheduling issues and unhappy members..All you’ve said is that the Big Ten should, out of gamesmanship, not support it because you do not believe they benefit from it right now.
Indeed, lets assume the B1G implements your gamesmanship idea and votes no and the ACC proposal fails. Then the ACC realizes divisions are better but that B1G West schools are upset at the diminished frequency of UM/OSU/PSU coming to town, and push the conference office, who makes the same proposal/ You think a happy ACC, content SEC, and neutral Pac12 will go along with the B1G after the B1G earlier gamesmanship? What are the odds of this scenario occurring? A number would be a guess, but its reasonable, say 40%. Why should the B1G take this risk if the proposal never hurt them in the first place, only gave another conference a perceived benefit?
In my opinion, its not worth the risk, and to use the Godfather theme of Frank’s post, is the Sunny Corleone move in a Michael Corleone world.
““What I do know, however, is that needless gamesmanship would come back to haunt the B1G some day.”
It’s not needless. There is a definite point to it.”
And the point is…gamesmanship? A possible upperhand.
““And remember, we focus on a small portion of things. You are looking at it in the context of athletics, which is the point of this blog and why we are here. However, in this context, I’m looking at it in the broader context of universities dealing with other universities.”
Don’t give me this crap about you seeing the bigger picture. You’ve been intentionally ignoring the bigger picture I’m looking at. We’re mainly talking athletics because we’re talking about athletics conferences making a decision about athletics.”
1) Your “bigger” picture is gamesmanship due to the lack of a perceived immediate need by the B1G to have no divisions.
2) You are missing the bigger picture of conferences and individuals schools working together, and presidents working together.
3) Athletic Directors will not do something of any note without approval of Presidents.
4) Presidents would actually vote on the ACC proposal, not Athletic Directors.
5) Presidents have friendships and relationships that transcend the rather artificial borders of conference affiliation, and ultimately athletics really means little to them unless there is a scandal or championship.
““Big Ten universities work on a host of non-athletic matters with other universities”
None of which would be impacted by how B10 schools vote on this issue.”
You of course, have evidence to buttress this claim? Do share with the rest of us.
It’s funny how you assume the B10 should be nice because that’s how schools act, and then justify it by discussing all the repercussions other schools would visit on the B10 for voting a certain way.”
Actually. I think the B1G should be nice to be a good neighbor and because they might need or want support or votes on other matters down the line. I don’t justify it by mentioning repercussions. I mentioned that in the context of engaging in needless gamesmanship, and the consequences/karma that would result from that. If you cannot tell a difference between the two, that’t not my problem.
““Presidents don’t want to have to deal with the sports departments not getting along,”
They don’t have to. They have many more important things to discuss. It’s not like the presidents of OSU and MI can’t be together because the teams hate each other.”
All true, and all to my point that there are bigger matters than proposals that presidents work on and deal with, and that schools and conferences will routinely look past small matters and do what’s best for a larger group. When they don’t, like KU refusing to schedule Mizzou, or Texas refusing to schedule A&M, it comes off as needlessly petty and punishing fans and student athletes. But thanks for acknowledging that athletic rivals routinely cooperate with each others.
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Wainscott,
“about gamesmanship for the sake of gamesmanship.”
I never said it was gamesmanship for the sake of gamesmanship, I said it was gamesmanship for a reason.
“Punishing existing members and protracted lawsuits is a intra-conference matter and not relevant here.”
Yes, they are. They show the behavior of the party you’re saying the B10 must be nice to because that’s how schools act.
“But you never provided any evidence that the Big Ten is a loser if the ACC’s proposal is adopted,”
The ACC provided it by saying they want this. If a competitor wants something and gets it, then they gain and you lose. In addition, there’s thousands of words worth of discussion in these comments about how beneficial this change would be.
“and you also take it on faith the ACC will actually benefit from the proposal, instead of giving itself a whole new batch of scheduling issues and unhappy members..”
They think it and so do other people here. I have yet to see anyone make the case for them losing out by getting this change passed.
“All you’ve said is that the Big Ten should, out of gamesmanship, not support it because you do not believe they benefit from it right now.”
Repeating a lie doesn’t make it true. I never said that.
“Indeed, lets assume the B1G implements your … idea and votes no and the ACC proposal fails. Then the ACC realizes divisions are better but that B1G West schools are upset at the diminished frequency of UM/OSU/PSU coming to town, and push the conference office, who makes the same proposal/”
Why would the ACC suddenly decide divisions are better? They spent a lot of time analyzing this before deciding to send it to the NCAA. If they thought they had a better fix that didn’t require this change, they wouldn’t waste their time on the effort.
You mean the B10 W that happily just supported the move to this new plan? Yeah, get back to me when that happens. They get all the games they said they most wanted, plus the 6 non-IN eastern teams 46% of the time on average. The parity-based scheduling complicates that some, but it means NE, WI and IA get the 3 eastern kings even more often. So that means only NW, IL, MN and maybe PU would be complaining. And those complaints would be more about the parity-based scheme than the divisions.
“You think a happy ACC, content SEC, and neutral Pac12 will go along with the B1G after the B1G earlier gamesmanship?”
1. The ACC wouldn’t be happy.
2. The P12 looked into changing the rule before. They are likely to always consider changing it.
“What are the odds of this scenario occurring? A number would be a guess, but its
reasonable, say 40%.”
We’re not even in the same ballpark on the reasonableness of that scenario. I’d say 4% is stretching it optimistically, let alone 40%.
“Why should the B1G take this risk if the proposal never hurt them in the first place, only gave another conference a perceived benefit?”
Because a benefit to a competitor does hurt them. Why should GM care if a new law doubled Ford’s sales as long as GM’s stayed the same?
“You of course, have evidence to buttress this claim? Do share with the rest of us.”
I’ve got your statements just above claiming all the relationships they have and how they extend across artificial conference borders.
“I don’t justify it by mentioning repercussions.”
Yes, you did. You gave the example of the B10 wanting the same change later but not getting due to retaliation. You mentioned karma punishing the B10 as payback. You mentioned nebulous changes the B10 might want later and need their votes on later but not get because of this. Everything you said was about potential repercussions.
I’m sick of this pointless discussion. Nobody is adding anything new, and nobody is changing their mind. I’m done.
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@Brian:
You started a threat above with this:
Brian says:
February 7, 2014 at 7:15 pm
Frank,
“Conference Championship Games the Way We Want Them
…
Personally, I am all for it and hope that Jim Delany and the Big Ten hop aboard in support of the measure.”
I think it helps others more than the B10, so he should consider being against it out of gamesmanship. ”
So to the extent you now say: All you’ve said is that the Big Ten should, out of gamesmanship, not support it because you do not believe they benefit from it right now.” Repeating a lie doesn’t make it true. I never said that.” would be untrue.
Also:
“The ACC provided it by saying they want this. If a competitor wants something and gets it, then they gain and you lose.”
No. Its not zero sum. Its not diving up a finite object. if someone gains, all it means is someone gains. It has no bearing if someone else gains, loses, or is not impacted.
Also:
“Why would the ACC suddenly decide divisions are better? They spent a lot of time analyzing this before deciding to send it to the NCAA. If they thought they had a better fix that didn’t require this change, they wouldn’t waste their time on the effort.
If you read my hypothetical, they didn’t decide divisions were better. They had to live with them because their proposal to end them failed but realized that they actually work out well for them overall.
“You mean the B10 W that happily just supported the move to this new plan? Yeah, get back to me when that happens. They get all the games they said they most wanted, plus the 6 non-IN eastern teams 46% of the time on average. The parity-based scheduling complicates that some, but it means NE, WI and IA get the 3 eastern kings even more often. So that means only NW, IL, MN and maybe PU would be complaining. And those complaints would be more about the parity-based scheme than the divisions.””
No kidding the B1G West would support that. But this was part of the hypothetical of a Big Ten proposal to do away with divisions down the road voted down by other conferences, meaning the schools would be unhappy without remedy.
“I’m sick of this pointless discussion. Nobody is adding anything new, and nobody is changing their mind. I’m done.”
Good.
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Wainscott:
“They were locked because the Big Ten wanted two Kings locked in order to kick off a rivalry, because ESPN/ABC wanted that game, and because they were then the two most recent additions to the conference (with the resulting lack of established conference rival).”
Exactly, so why wouldn’t the B10 want that again if they don’t have to split in to divisions?
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Frank:
To me, there is almost no difference between playing a school 50% of the time and playing a school 60% of the time. You still get to visit every opposing school once in 4 years and you’re not playing them enough to sustain a rivalry atmosphere.
There is a big difference between playing a school 50% of the time and playing a school 45% or so of the time, IMO, however, as you’ll have classes who were there 4 years who didn’t get to visit every other B10 school.
That’s why I think there is a huge difference between 5 locked series and 6 locked series in a 14-school league.
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@Richard:
In a division less Big Ten, the PTB would 100% want PSU and Nebraska to play every year, as would I. Nebraska was added primarily to have a 4th King in the conference. To then not have them play at least one other King annually would be a foolish waste. Since PSU doesn’t have a main rival in the conference, a PSU-UNL is to me a no brainer. If it can be arranged for UNL to play multiple Kings annually, all the better for CFB fans and TV viewers.
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Wainscott:
I completely agree.
Ergo 5 locked series.
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I’m agnostic on 5 locked games vs. 3 locked games vs. some schools having more locked games than others. But not having Kings face off makes very little sense, regardless of the number of locked rivals.
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Wainscott:
I agree. However, if you have fewer locked games and still want kings to face off, you’d have to sacrifice local rivalry games.
For instance, if you want PSU-UNL annually but only 3 locked games, then you’d have to drop one of PSU-OSU, PSU-RU, or PSU-UMD.
That would be idiotic when you can simply have 5 locked games and avoid such difficulties. If you lock UNL-UM as well, then UNL would have to drop UNL-Iowa or UNL-Wisconsin. That’s stupid when there’s no need to make such hare-brained choices.
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I agree, and its a very fine line. Also, the B1G does have to make sure to spread the Kings around evenly so that other schools get to play them. Maybe 4 locked rivals? Maybe some schools have 3, some have 4? I dunno. Local rivalries are what made (and make) CFB special, yet the King vs King games are what most casual fans prefer. Have to try to cater to both. I agree that no divisions makes that possible to a greater extent than 2 divisions do.
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Well, if you have 5 locked series, every non-king can be guaranteed a locked series with a king _even_if_ you also have each king locked with 2 other kings (8 non-kings will lock with 1 king while 2 non-kings will lock with 2 kings). In general, they’d be locking with a king that they care about more than other kings as well, so win-win.
For example, for the king locks, you can do this:
UM: OSU, UNL, MSU, Minny, Wisconsin
OSU: UM, PSU, Illinois, IU, PU
PSU: OSU, UNL, MSU, RU, UMD
UNL: PSU, UM, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern
MSU: UM, PSU
UW: UNL, UM
Iowa: UNL
Minny: UM
Illinois: OSU
Northwestern: UNL
IU: OSU
PU: OSU
RU: PSU
UMD: PSU
The 4 kings as well as the 2 strongest princes (Wisconsin and MSU) lock with 2 kings while everyone else lock with 1 king each.
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The idea behind the locked rivals was to look at ways that a divisionless conference might work. Jumping up to 5 locked games defeats much of the purpose, you might as well just go ahead & split into two divisions.
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Bingo
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I’ll repeat my rationale:
To me, there is almost no difference between playing a school 50% of the time and playing a school 60% of the time. You still get to visit every opposing school once in 4 years and you’re not playing them enough to sustain a rivalry atmosphere.
There is a big difference between playing a school 50% of the time and playing a school 45% or so of the time, IMO, however, as you’ll have classes who were there 4 years who didn’t get to visit every other B10 school.
That’s why I think there is a huge difference between 5 locked series and 6 locked series in a 14-school league.
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I don’t see anything wrong with 5 locked rivals….
But there isn’t any need for it, either. What the ACC proposal gives you is flexibility. It’s absurd to respond to that opportunity with an inflexible system.
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Unless you want to reach all your goals (preserve rivalries, maximize king matchups, & maximize Eastern exposure).
Flexibility for the sake of flexibility may sound nice, but when you do the numbers, the difference between playing a team you don’t have emotions for 60% of the time vs. 50% of the time is small while the difference between playing a team you care about playing 100% of the time vs. 60% of the time is huge.
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No one has suggested five locked rivals well suited to all 14 teams. They simply don’t have the same number of desired/desirable annual games. Forcing them all into the same number is unnecessary.
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Marc Shepherd,
“No one has suggested five locked rivals well suited to all 14 teams. They simply don’t have the same number of desired/desirable annual games. Forcing them all into the same number is unnecessary.”
I agree totally. There just aren’t that many games that need locking. I know we’ve argued this before when you tried to lock too few teams, but 5 is way too many. Three is a workable compromise.
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I guess alignment similar to mine got discussed above already (probably should have read first). Anyway, for fun, here is how I can picture the ACC, SEC, and PAC-12 doing it. Again parenthesis are the ones that didn’t seem quite as mandatory, but thought filled out the best
ACC (similar to Michael in Raleigh, but a tad different)
Boston College: Syracuse, Pitt, (Virginia Tech)
Syracuse: Boston College, Pitt, (Louisville)
Pitt: Syracuse, Boston College, (Louisville)
Louisville: (Virgina Tech), (Pitt), Syracuse
Virginia Tech: Virginia, (Louisville), (Boston College)
Virgina: Virginia Tech, North Carolina, (Wake Forest)
North Carolina: Virgina, Duke, North Carolina State
Duke: North Carolina, Wake Forest, North Carolina State
North Carolina State: North Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest
Wake Forest: North Carolina State, Duke, (Virginia)
Clemson: Miami (FL), Florida State, Georgia Tech
Georgia Tech, Miami (FL), Florida State, Clemson
Florida State: Miami (FL), Clemson, Georgia Tech
Miami (FL): Florida State, Georgia Tech, Clemson
The 4 southernmost schools play each other every year and every team outside those 4 will play 2 of those a year (including 1 Florida school). With 8 conference games, you play your 3 locked teams and the other 10, 50% of the time. Virginia-Wake Forest was fairly natural given they are old time ACC schools. I put Louisville with Syracuse and Pitt as they have shared more conference time together. I put Boston College with Virgina Tech since they have been in a conference together and locked teams for awhile and moved from the Big East together. That left Louisville-Virgina Tech which still feels fairly natural.
PAC-12:
1. 4 California schools play each other
2. Utah, Colorado, and Arizona schools play each other every year
3. Pacific Northwest schools play each year
Easiest conference for this. Set-up is natural and with 9 conference games and only 12 schools, they’d actually still play the other 8 teams, 80% of the time.
SEC
Florida: Georgia, (Auburn), (South Carolina)
Georgia: Florida, Auburn, South Carolina
South Carolina: Georgia, Missouri, (Florida)
Tennessee: Alabama, Vanderbilt, Kentucky
Vanderbilt: Tennessee, Ole Miss, (Kentucky)
Kentucky: Tennessee, Mississippi State, (Vanderbilt)
Ole Miss: Mississippi State, LSU, Vanderbilt
Mississippi State: Ole Miss, Kentucky, (Arkansas)
Alabama: Tennessee, Auburn, (LSU)
Auburn: Alabama, Georgia, (Florida)
LSU: Ole Miss, (Texas A&M), (Alabama)
Arkansas: Texas A&M, (Missouri), (Mississippi State)
Missouri: (Arkansas), (South Carolina), (Texas A&M)
Texas A&M: Arkansas, (LSU), (Missouri)
This was far and way the most difficult. Too many cross-cutting rivalries without enough distinction between them (at least for me).
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The story about Dodds and Del Conte is awesome. Understanding how relationships, or attributes like persistence-luck-timing, play a role in decision making is fascinating. If Del Conte hadn’t been able to solidify TCU’s standing with Dodds, I truly believe that a more detached analysis and process may have led to B12 expansion with WV and Louisville.
The B12 needed cohesion in order to have the best shot at retaining MO. Del Conte and TCU exploited the opportunity.
Currently, TCU truly is a big winner in the conference consolidation process.
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If Texas Christian hadn’t landed a spot in the Big 12, the likely domino effect (Big 12 expanding with both West Virginia and Louisville) probably would have resulted in Connecticut joining the ACC (assuming Boston College had no veto power over the New England area). So for now, Fort Worth is a realignment winner, while Storrs is a loser.
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Completely agree that UConn is the biggest realignment loser. Regardless of detailed circumstances, all of UConn’s long-standing Big East peers moved on to more stable and financially rewarding conferences. UConn had a realistic shot at being invited to the ACC, but it was not chosen.
The suggestion that UConn didn’t get selected because BC has some form of veto over schools in the New England geography is specious. BC does not seem to be a major power school within the ACC.
Louisville was probably selected over UConn because it brought more, of what the ACC desperately needed, to the table. Specifically, the ability to generate revenue.
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Agreed that UConn is a big loser in realignment. Even the Big East that they joined wasn’t what they thought as Miami and company jumped ship even before the football team was part of the conference. I don’t recall the exact details, but I remember that UConn was alleging that Miami’s president gave her word to UConn that they were staying in the Big East, UConn then invested all the money to move to Division 1-A, only to have Miami and friends leave for the ACC before UConn was even in the football league. Shame on UConn for not getting something in writing, but I still feel bad.
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I wound not worry about any of this until the MD – ACC court case is done.
The ACC could lose a lot more than Maryland.
The BIG could be adding a few more schools from before the new television deal.
Plus a couple B12 schools.
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The ACC didn’t have a grant of rights when Maryland left. Even if Maryland’s exit fee is reduced to zero (and it won’t be), no school is going to give up its home TV revenues for a decade.
The Big Ten is playing a long game. Look for major conference re-alignment to heat up again in the 2020s, not before.
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I strongly disagree regarding the ACC. The evidence which has surfaced makes me wonder if the ESPN involvement with the ACC in ESPN’s direction to break the Big East is very damaging. Do the RICO laws come into play? ESPN’s involvement was very much behind the scenes, but evidence the MD Atty Gen & the B1G posses is extremely damaging for the ACC & ESPN.
Basicly, IMHO the ACC is going to lose big time as is ESPN. If charges are not filed then IMHO ESPN & the ACC are accepting losses as a benefit of not being punished through the courts.
IMHO I believe the B1G has a strong desire to gain B1G membership by UVA, UNC, GT from the ACC & OU & KU from the B12. This will leave a single spot open for ND. A move by ND is not a given, but if UT moves to the ACC because of a demise of the ACC and hit to ESPN from this evidence, then ND stays in the ACC.
Either way, the B1G is expected to win big time should this happen sooner rather than later. Who a 20th member would be? Maybe Syracuse which would lock the NE market to the B1G unless a choice was made to add Baylor to creep the B1G into Texas which I doubt.
But either way, the evidence against ESPN & the ACC is extremely damaging and will nullify any GoR agreements and other conference actions.
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Do you have links to any reputable analysis to back that up? It sounds entirely fabricated to me, or perhaps a fan’s wishful thinking.
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@Marc:
My best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with the girl who saw Ferris and Jim Delany talking with the AD’s of Syracuse, UVA, UNC, GT, KU, & OU, and the MD Attorney General at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it’s pretty serious.
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Marc
I’m familiar with him from the Twitterverse. He’s a Michigan fan and has been predicting the demise of the ACC for some time. I don’t agree with that position, being that ESpin’s backing makes that league a little more solid. The thing we have to understand is that certain conferences are behaving like proxies for the networks. Since the B1G is waiting for its current contract to finish, I think they’re in a position of vulnerability that many pro-B1G fans don’t want to recognize. ESpin could finance a raid of certain schools, which would have the effect of downgrading the B1G’s value in the eyes of other media companies (i.e. Fox and NBC). This is exactly what happened to the old Big East after the ACC took school after school of any value. Afterwards, NBC made a low-ball offer, which ESpin easily matched. ESpin’s primary goal is to maintain the Worldwide Monopoly at the expense of conference value, if necessary.
In any conference, there are always areas of disagreement, from scheduling to issues of perceived fairness or unfairness. All it takes for a network to manipulate the process is to know the main players (athletic directors, presidents, faculty). ESpin has had it easy getting in with the university people and can use that to attempt to completely control college sports. BTN is a big thorn of their side and they would like to eliminate it. If, for example, the B1G takes the Tier 1 stuff to another over-the-air network and some Tier 2 to a competing cable network, that’s content that their competitors can use to win price increases with the cable companies, which may cause some decrease in the price ESpin charges. With more money coming in, the competitors can then finance higher-quality sports shows that attract audiences that currently watch College Gameday, etc.. Should that scenario happen, ESpin would hear from the greedy shareholders at the Mouse to make some changes. Out goes Mark May and other anti-B1G pundits. Maybe even the ESpin President, who is a southerner and, thus, not favorable to the B1G.
Maybe ESpin is using the possibility that they could finance a raiding of the B1G as a threat against Delany so that they would be ensured of their pound of flesh whatever the new media contract may be. Maybe. But nothing can be given to chance with these individuals.
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Wishful thinking! Tell the MD Atty General who has this evidence and has state some of it in the filing of their counter suit to the ACC for $157 million. Unfortunately, for you who wish to make light of this evidence, bear in mind the ACC, ESPN, UMD, MD Atty Gen and the B1G are not laughing as the courts have much of this presented in the court documents.
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One link is the doc filed by the MD Atty Gen. It is rather damaging towards the ACC. While the evidence that UMD, MD Atty Gen and Delany has is also damaging.
Click to access acclawsuit.pdf
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Transic,
I’m hard-pressed to see how ESPN could finance the ACC stealing some B10 schools. The B10 already makes a lot more per year, had a GoR, and has projections through 2017 ending at $35M per year. In addition, the ACC just started a new deal and the B10 is ending theirs.
Is ESPN going to bump all the ACC schools up by $20M/year for the next 15 years in addition to buying out the B10 GoR? That’s $300M for 14 schools, or $4.2B dollars extra for the ACC, plus the GoR buyout.
You don’t think there might be some legal issues if ESPN did that in addition to the financial issues?
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@Chris, @Transic: All I asked was, can you link to any reputable analysis to back that up? Documents from one side of a court case do not count as “reputable analysis,” because they’re just that: one-sided.
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ESpin could finance a raid of certain schools, which would have the effect of downgrading the B1G’s value in the eyes of other media companies (i.e. Fox and NBC). This is exactly what happened to the old Big East after the ACC took school after school of any value.
During the years the Big East was getting poached, you could’ve asked just about anyone which league was more valuable, and the answer was obvious: the ACC. From the beginning, the Big East was a basketball league trying to create a big-time football league, and not really ever getting there. The schools that had the opportunity just followed the money. It’s no surprise the networks did too.
These events don’t support the proposition that ESPN could dismember a conference all by itself, even if it wanted to.
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I won’t add much to what Marc has said but I will say that things take time to sort themselves out. We’re at 14 schools right now. #’s 15 and 16 have to be obvious adds in order to be executed. Let’s remember that interest has to be on both sides or it would not work. Right now is a time to work on conference cohesion and make sure the conference’s real power is used to thwart any immediate outside threats (i.e. ESpin) until they’re ready to move again.
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Frank,
Do you or any of your contacts have any insight into whether the NFL moving to Thursday broadcasts might impact the Thursday night TV deals various conferences have? Would there normally be a minimum average rating in the contract that must be met or one side gets a chance to opt out?
Certainly the B10 has to be happy with their decision to stay on Saturdays. Any word how the conferences that regularly play on Thursdays (ACC, P12, SEC) are reacting?
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I know that the Pac is contracted to put 4 games on on Thursdays yearly.
Are the ACC and SEC contracted for a set number of Thursday games? If not, then I don’t see why they’d care. ESPN will just show their games on Saturdays and everyone will be happy.
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Michael Sam, Consensus All-American, SEC Defensive Player of the Year, and first openly gay professional athlete in a major league in U.S. history:
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Andy,
I don’t always agree with your approach in sharing your comments on this board, but I read Michael Sam told his team he was gay over a year ago. The fact that the team did not share it with anyone and still supported/welcomed him speaks volumes about the football program…
Much Respect….
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@DITB and Andy – Agreed. For all of the arguing about Missouri here lately, the fact that his Mizzou teammates continued to essentially just treat him normally (and if anything, increased their respect for him) is a testament to the football program here. It also goes to show that I believe most college-aged students and younger have simply moved beyond this issue in a way that older generations might not have (probably similar to the generational divide in viewing racial segregation back in the 1960s). Note that Sam said that some of his coaches were more worried about him coming out than his teammates. I remember seeing someone state that O.J. Simpson, in completely steamrolling one of Bear Bryant’s Alabama teams while he was at USC, did more for racial integration in the South than any civil rights leaders. At a certain point, racial segregation meant bad football, and that seemed to be the one area where the South finally realized that their policies and attitudes were holding them back from the rest of the country. The impact of gay players in football may not be quite the same as the impact of racially integrated teams (although we can be assured that there are and have been many more gay players than Michael Sam), but a culture of tolerance is certainly very important to young people today. The SEC, which is in a region where there’s a disproportionate amount of animus toward homosexuals compared to anywhere else in the country, could end up playing a big role in changing that.
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That was Sam Cunningham of USC. OJ was already with the Bills.
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I don’t really care if he’s gay or straight. If my team drafts him and he makes it on his skill, I’ll root for him just the same as any other player.
But the fact that hes a consensus All-American and SEC Defensive Player of the Year is irrelevant to his pro prospects. Unfortunately, many commentators mention this as if it means anything. The last two SEC defensive players of the year, Jarvis Jones and Morris Claiborne haven’t exactly taken the NFL by storm. Neither did Rolando McClain. (Patrick Peterson and Eric Berry have worked out, though).
Indeed, on this list (http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/awards/sec-dpoy.html) the only true stud on this list is Patrick Willis.
If college awards meant anything in terms of pro success, then there would me far more Heisman winners with successful pro careers.
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Wainscott,
I think they have mentioned his awards just to give him an identity and to acknowledge his accomplishments. Prior to yesterday, I had never heard of him. But identifying him as SEC DPOY and as an All-American just lets the general public know, “Hey, this guy can play ball.” He’s not a nobody without a real shot at being drafted in the first few rounds. I think they’re hust trying to distinguish him from, say, a prospect who may not be drafted at all and was just above average. Obviously, the team that drafts him won’t be influenced by his or others’ awards, but they will be influenced by a belief he could make the team better based on his talent.
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@Michael,
“But identifying him as SEC DPOY and as an All-American just lets the general public know, “Hey, this guy can play ball.”’
But, like they say in investing, past performance is not indicative of future results. All it proves is he was a great college player. History is littered with great college players with little/no NFL success, and what makes a great college player does not necessarily make a pro prospect. Its misleading to imply that his collegiate awards (which are legitimate and impressive) have any greater value. Much like the Jason Collins news in the NBA–some say because hes not been signed since he came out means the NBA discriminates, when it in practice means his pro career was largely over with before he came out. By contrast, Branch Rickey sought out Jackie Robinson not only because he was black, but because he was black and had unquestionable baseball skills and brought it on the field. He was the real deal, not a sideshow for political purposes (and also because JR had the temperament to properly handle the racists he would encounter with class and grace).
Some of the more political commentators have used his SEC POY award, and his selection as a consensus all-American as evidence that he is a great player, someone who has an unquestioned place in the NFL, implying that if he is drafted in a low round, its proof of discrimination. One newscaster I saw teased him as a “Superstar Player”, which simply is not true. From what I read after the news broke, he was given a 3rd to 5th round grade by most scouts before this news broke.
Some sportswriters are also in on it:
However, I do agree with Andy, DITB, Frank and others that Mizzou players deserve lots of credit for not giving a s**t about his sexuality and accepting him when he came out, because he brought it on the football field. That’s the only thing that should matter, and its the only thing that matters to me..
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“But, like they say in investing, past performance is not indicative of future results.”
Huh. I always heard past performance was an indicator, but not a guarantee, of future results. Busts in the NFL are known as such because they are, to an extent, the exception.
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@Bullet:
From what I have seen, there is a difference, It appear to be this:
“Past performance is not indicative of future results” is the disclaimer used by funds/financial advisers.
“Past performance is not a guarantee future results” is the boilerplate for specific investments.
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The first and only two time Heisman winner:
Ohio St.’s own Archie Griffin who did virtually nothing with the Bengals.
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The fact that collegiate award winners sometimes fail in the NFL, does not mean winning those awards has no predictive power whatsoever.
Of course, you have to look at the situation. Florida State’s Charlie Ward put up gaudy statistics as a collegiate QB and won the Heisman, but practically no one thought he had a chance to play QB in the pros. He wasn’t even drafted.
But this is a guy that, to the extent such things can be forecasted, IS expected to have a pretty good shot at an NFL career. So it is perhaps significant that he has chosen to come out while the possibility of a substantial career remains open, than if it were a role-player not expected to play in the NFL.
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@Marc:
Here is Sam’s scouting report from SI: http://nfl.si.com/2014/02/10/michael-sam-the-scouting-report/
I could cherry-pick quotes that hes a marginal, third-day talent, but its all a crap shoot. And this can change if he wow’s scouts at the combine, or if he lays an egg at the combine.
His best bet is to be drafted by a team who can control the crush of media coverage (Patriots, 49ers) by the force of the head coach’s will, so the he can be evaluated on his football ability. The Belichick/Tebow playbook is the one to follow here.
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Basically he seems to have the same situation as Archie Griffin. An outstanding college player who is undersized for his position in the pros.
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The guy actually has a pretty interesting back story that no one is paying any attention to. An older sister died in youth. A brother died of a gunshot wound in his arms. 2 other brothers have been in and out of jail.
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For the record, Ward made his intentions VERY clear that he wanted to go the NBA route. That is 100% why he was not drafted, irrespective of where anyone knows where he should have landed. This was common knowledge 20 years ago. Funny how things get twisted as time goes by.
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@Tom: I have not forgotten that. But the reason Ward chose the NBA is that he had very little chance at playing QB in the NFL. Now sure, if he hadn’t been a two-sport player, would some NFL team have taken a flyer on him? Probably. But he’d have been a long-shot, and he knew it.
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And yet, at that time, Ward was still the best QB in the NYC metro area.
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The motto of Gary Pinkel’s football program for years has been “family atmosphere”. That’s the first thing they talk about when recruiting or explaining their success. They try to foster a team culture where everybody has everybody else’s back. And it seems to be working. Over the last 7 years they rank 8th in wins among BCS schools, and top 5 in academic progress rate. So it’s in keeping for them to have handled this situation the way they did. That said I’m pretty surprised it stayed quiet for as long as it did.
As for Sam’s spot in the draft, the fact that he’s even going to be drafted at all is kind of amazing. He was a 2 star athlete coming out of high school. He’s undersized for the NFL. That will hurt him as much as him being gay if not more. But he can definitely play. He had a dominant season while playing in the toughest conference in college football.
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I don’t care whether he’s gay, but I don’t think it deserves to be celebrated. I do not believe it is a healthy lifestyle.
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It’s being celebrated because until now no active player in the NFL, MLB, NBA, or NHL has ever come out. All of the probably hundreds of gay athletes have lived in secrecy. They shouldn’t have to hide who they are. I’m sure many will follow Michael Sam’s lead in the coming years.
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The “proud gay man” bs is a bit much, imo. People have gotten away from the fact that it is a discusting, unhealthy lifestyle.
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Disgusting, that is. I don’t think it should make a difference to the team if he can play football, but I don’t have to by into the gay agenda.
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I don’t see any gay agenda here. The fact that it has taken 100-plus years for anyone to openly come out as gay and then step onto a field/court for pro baseball, basketball, football or hockey is indicative of how people like Michael Sam and Jason Collins (and assuredly many others before them never publicly come out) have been completely stifled because of the fear of the rest of society’s agenda. I legitimately *wish* that Michael Sam coming out wasn’t a big deal because I truly don’t care about whether someone is gay (and by “not caring”, I mean “being gay is perfectly cool with me” as opposed to the “I just don’t want to hear about it because I don’t agree with it” viewpoint that I’ve seen from some people today) and got over my own personal misconceptions and misinformed opinions about homosexuals many years ago when I ended up randomly living next door to a gay man and transgender person in my freshman year dorm. At the same time, I’m a firm believer that gay people should be able to freely come out in the open without discrimination and get married (and I say this as someone that has voted Republican in every Presidential election that I’ve been able to cast a ballot in). However, it would be disingenuous to say that it’s not a big deal when absolutely no one, out of the tens of thousands of pro athletes that have come before him, has been willing to do it up until now. If it wasn’t a big deal, then many others would have come out many years ago.
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Well said, Frank.
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@Andy – We may disagree on many issues, but on this particular one, we are completely aligned. The Mizzou community should be proud of Michael Sam and his teammates for how they’ve handled everything.
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http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/11/ex-mizzou-qb-james-franklin-i-wouldnt-say-supportive-but-accepting-of-michael-sams/
Although, maybe his teammates weren’t as supportive as we’ve been led to believe.
“Almost immediately after Sam publicly came out as being gay, former Mizzou tight end and Sam’s roommate Eric Waters called out his former teammates on Twitter, writing that “[h]alf y’all posting these pics saying how proud you are… [were] the ones talkin s**t behind his back in the locker room.”
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I doubt all 100 players on the roster were 100% gay friendly from day one. But it sounds like it was an overall positive environment, and nobody outed him to the general public.
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Here’s a more extensive interview with Waters, if you’re interested:
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/10443289/missouri-blueprint-nfl
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“Waters estimates that roughly 5 to 10 percent of the team was slow to come around to Sam.
“There were hurtful things that were said at the very beginning,” he said. “But you have to think about it. On a football team, there are various ages ranging from 17-year-olds all the way to 24-year-olds. Some kids haven’t matured; some guys haven’t learned. There’s more cultural differences in one small locker room. Some guys don’t know how to handle situations like that.
“Once that stuff came out, people automatically turned on him. Some people turned on him as they smiled in his face.”
But eventually, the team grew closer, and came together. That, he said, is one of the biggest success stories of 2013. Just watch the film clips that are currently playing in a loop during all the coverage on Sam, he said. They show Sam making big plays. And after every one of them, his teammates surround him with hugs and pats on the head.
“It wasn’t about, ‘Oh, I don’t want to touch him, he’s gay,'” Waters said. “It didn’t matter to us. It was all about celebration with our team. With our family.””
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Seems like expectations for the B1G have been lowered. A year ago…a lot of folks were talking about UT, UNC, UVA, even FSU (and absurdly some SEC schools). Now it’s how to fit lowly UMd and RU in without ruining B1G rivalries and traditions. Is Delany perhaps overrated?
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FSU not considered by the COP/C. UT not a fit – doesn’t play well with others as equals. Things are proceeding as should be expected.
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FSU would never join the B1G anyway unless Delany broke open the check book.
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Isn’t that what earning $40-50M in 2017 would be?
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Maryland is comparable to North Carolina and Virginia academically and athletically. It’s no Texas or Florida State, to be true, but don’t let its well-documented athletic financial troubles lead you to put it in the same “lowly” boat as Rutgers, which has far less of a history of success.
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vp, looks like he’s just trolling. If he had his head out of his ass he’d realize the Big 10 is very fortunate to add MD. ONLY question with MD I ever had was whether the MD fanbase will accept it. Fanbases are very fickle……if/when MD fans think they’re getting the short stick (esp. against the UMs and OSUs of the world), there could be some serious second guessing…..that was the downside of the secret dealing……the secrecy kinda backfired when it came to PSU, There was a lot of anti-PSU bias at the start, which ended up poisening the well………………….I would hope for everyone’s sake that the current fanbases accept MD and RU without a lot of bitching, as I think both will work out in the long run. I do think it’s a lot trickier proposition than Delany realizes.
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Not trolling. Post here once every couple months. I’m an ACC fan for sure. But that doesn’t mean I’m wrong in saying that I find Delany’s addition of RU and UMd to be questionable, at best. And I can say it without thin-skinned insults.
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You can say whatever the hell you want. That doesn’t mean you’re not a moron.
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Delany may well have thought (or still thinks) that Maryland is the key to unlock UVa and UNC from the ACC to the Big Ten should a 16-member conference be sought. And that may well occur if, by the mid-2020s, College Park has a thriving athletic environment, making vastly more money than any ACC school (thanks to a full share of the Big Ten Network, its days of red ink are a vague memory) and out-recruiting the Cavs and Tar Heels in football and some other sports. It’s not going to happen in the short term, and much will ride on whether ESPN actually builds an ACC network or whether it’s sold conference members a bill of goods. If it’s the latter case, a decade from now the GOR will tumble like a house of cards, whereas the Terrapins have found a safe harbor (albeit one it may take some time to get used to).
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Rutgers and Maryland on the athletic front are questionable additions. The Big Ten will have a fight on its hands in New Jersey and Maryland to get on basic cable so any profitability from those schools could take a few years to realize. It’s a gamble but if it hits, you a talking a gigantic amount of money for the conference.
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@PSUHockey:
Regarding NJ tv situation for the B1G, I posted this above but am re-posting here:
http://www.onthebanks.com/2012/12/6/3674206/project-big-ten-network
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mushroomgod,
“If he had his head out of his ass he’d realize the Big 10 is very fortunate to add MD.”
You can make solid arguments against it. Only time will tell.
“Fanbases are very fickle……if/when MD fans think they’re getting the short stick (esp. against the UMs and OSUs of the world), there could be some serious second guessing…..that was the downside of the secret dealing…”
Well, after the scheduling treatment the ACC gave them on the way out (no Duke, UNC or NCSU at home in hoops or FB), I doubt they’ll feel to fond of the ACC for a while.
“would hope for everyone’s sake that the current fanbases accept MD and RU without a lot of bitching,”
They are very different cases from PSU, although there is at least 1 direct correlation. PSU was a football king and there was no question of making more money. The main problems:
1. The fans (and many coaches and ADs) didn’t want to expand to the east and stop being a midwestern conference.
2. The B10 had been at 10 for a long time and people liked it. PSU disrupted the status quo when many people didn’t think change was needed.
3. PSU was an independent and their fans weren’t thrilled about joining a conference. Some of the talk from their side didn’t endear themselves to the B10 fans.
4. The process was handled poorly.
#1 is also an issue with UMD and RU, and is a point the fans and the presidents are unlikely to agree on. Since neither school is a king at anything and it hasn’t yet been shown the B10 will gain money from their addition (the only upside most people can see from this), it’s reasonable for fans to not be happy right now.
UMD and RU stink at football lately, and are joining a conference that needs to be improving in FB. RU’s athletic department is having all kinds of issues. UMD fans didn’t want to join at first and some things that angered midwestern B10 fans.
“as I think both will work out in the long run.”
If they start to show signs of working out, then fans will stop bitching. Right now they just see fewer games against real B10 teams and a lower SOS thanks to these outsiders.
“I do think it’s a lot trickier proposition than Delany realizes.”
Delany doesn’t care what fans think. He’s proven that. He’ll keep the administrators happy and the rest don’t matter.
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Seems like expectations for the B1G have been lowered. A year ago…a lot of folks were talking about UT, UNC, UVA, even FSU (and absurdly some SEC schools). Now it’s how to fit lowly UMd and RU in without ruining B1G rivalries and traditions. Is Delany perhaps overrated?
Expectations have been lowered…by whom? Delany has always been patient: look at how long the league stayed at 11 teams. Whether you judge Delany a success or a failure, it surely has nothing to do with whether he performs in line with unsubstantiated rumors.
Delany is in his mid-60s, so by the time expansion heats up again, he may no longer be commissioner. If he retires with the league still at 14 teams, then integrating UMd/RU and the next TV deal might be his last two big projects. It’s too soon to tell how they’ll turn out, but given his track record I wouldn’t bet against him.
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Tom,
“Seems like expectations for the B1G have been lowered.”
Whose expectations?
“A year ago…a lot of folks were talking about UT, UNC, UVA, even FSU (and absurdly some SEC schools). Now it’s how to fit lowly UMd and RU in without ruining B1G rivalries and traditions.”
People were discussing rumors of talks going on behind the scenes, as well as teams that might be available. The ACC GoR ended most of that discussion. There were rumors of UT having ideas on how to break the GoR in a cost effective way. Until that’s proven to be possible, the ACC schools and UT are off the board for a decade or more.
“Is Delany perhaps overrated?”
How is he rated? What more could he have done? The presidents have the final say on all expansion decisions.
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OT – Francesa’s show may be picked up by Fox Sports 1
http://www.newsday.com/sports/media/source-mike-francesa-s-show-to-air-on-fox-sports-1-1.7006549
I’m sure Frank would say that this proves FS1 is a bad fit for B10 but I think it’s a smart move for them. Get different segments of sports fans to tune in and check out the channel, so that they can get used to the idea of tuning to FS1. Also, they are starting coverage of MLB this year, so they can use his promotion of the Yankees to segway into whatever Yankee game they have later in the night. Next for them would be to get an NBA package so that pro basketball fans check it out.
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@Transic – That’s a mischaracterization of what I’ve stated up to this point. To me, the Big Ten’s targeted model for the next TV contract should be the Pac-12 model: Tier 1 and high tier 2 games on ABC/ESPN and Fox/FS1 and then low tier 2 and tier 3 games on the conference network. That keeps a presence on the two major media entities that are investing a lot on sports programming (Disney and Fox) with national broad exposure and supplementing it with conference network coverage.
So, I have no issue with *some* Big Ten games on FS1. However, what I disagree heavily with is the notion of completely leaving ESPN altogether as being any semblance of a good idea. Even if you don’t like their pundits, every sports entity that wants to get paid the maximum amount needs ESPN involved, and the smart ones leverage ESPN plus one or two other major media entities to get the right mix of revenue and exposure. That’s what the NFL, NBA, MLB, SEC and Pac-12 have all smartly done. Let’s not get so much hubris that the Big Ten can just waltz off on its own when stronger entities like the NFL (who could sell to anyone at any price or keep all of their games for their own network and charge whatever they want for it) know that ESPN’s dollars and all-week exposure on SportsCenter and other ESPN shows are very critical for a league that wants to be more than just a niche product. Existing Big Ten fans will watch games no matter what network they’re on, but that’s not who any of us should be concerned about. The leagues that get the casual fans are the ones that get the best revenue and exposure, and a major part of getting casual fans in today’s day and age means having a good relationship with ESPN (whether people like it or not). I’m not interested in taking the tactics of the NHL and the new Big East (and more importantly, the Big Ten doesn’t even have to consider that for financial reasons – ESPN will absolutely pay up big-time to keep the Big Ten).
As for Francesca, I don’t really have much of an opinion on him one way or the other. All of the sports networks seem to be simulcasting radio shows during the daytime (ESPN2 with Mike & Mike and SVP & Rusillo and NBCSN with Dan Patrick), so that makes sense with FS1. Chicago is possibly the most provincial sports radio town out there, so my exposure to Francesca is limited to hearing his NFL Sunday show occasionally, while I’m essentially clueless whenever I hear references to Paul Finebaum or even Colin Cowherd. They’re completely non-existent in this market. The only national sports radio show that has any traction here is Mike & Mike, and even then, Greenberg is an open and loud Northwestern partisan that spent his pre-ESPN career as a local Chicago sports reporter and Golic is a 100% Notre Dame guy, so it’s the one national show with a much heavier Chicago tilt compared to the most of the others that are wrapped up in the NYC/Boston pro sports vortex.
By the way, this is another reason why I’m tired of complaints that ESPN supposedly has a Big Ten bias. Between Greenie and Michael Wilbon, pretty much everyone outside of the Big Ten must wonder when ESPN is ever going to STFU about Northwestern football. We keep focusing on the negative trolls like Mark May, but then ignoring the others like Greenberg and Wilbon that actually have MUCH bigger audiences and power at the network and whose Big Ten views are overwhelmingly positive. I understand the belief that there might be an SEC bias at ESPN, but believe me, the Pac-12, Big 12 and ACC all wish that they could get as much coverage as Big Ten football does. We really don’t have much place to complain, especially since we haven’t even been winning high profile games like the SEC has. I know many people here might not want to here it, but the SEC actually *deserves* the coverage that they’ve been receiving. As of now, we (the Big Ten) are getting coverage because we’re like the Dallas Cowboys or LA Lakers – we actually haven’t been very good, but ESPN still gets a bigger audience dissecting Ohio State instead of Baylor or Clemson (just as talking about Tony Romo or Kobe Bryant’s rehab is more “interesting” from a national perspective than talking about the Bengals or Spurs).
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I think that Frank is right that the BIG would be better suited on both networks instead of one. I would love for BIG to mimic the NFL in the future and sell each division to a separate network much like the AFC/NFC packages the NFL sells. The West division is nowhere near strong enough to do that right now but if they could add Texas or Oklahoma down the road or both to the west, that would definitely do it. A package of OSU, PSU, UM, and MSU to espn and UT, OU, Nebraska, and Wisconsin to FOX with the crossovers games going to the home teams network.
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Psuhockey,
The last sentence in your post is telling – could Nebraska and Wisconsin be a compelling pair for the BXII to target in an expansion? I think Nebraska might be regretting their B1G move in some ways (having to share Ohio recruits instead of Texas recruits), but Wisconsin fancies itself too high-brow to be in a conference with a lower academic standing. Changing home-state politics (as in the case of Purdue) might make a bang for buck switch compelling.
I agree with Frank’s idea of splitting schools between networks. In many ways, the NFL should be split amongst 4 networks instead of 2. NBC seems like its the de facto NFC East network, anyway.
FOX – NFC North, NFC West
NBC – NFC East, NFC South
CBS – AFC East, AFC South
ESPN/ABC – AFC West, AFC North
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urbanleftbehind,
“The last sentence in your post is telling – could Nebraska and Wisconsin be a compelling pair for the BXII to target in an expansion? I think Nebraska might be regretting their B1G move in some ways (having to share Ohio recruits instead of Texas recruits), but Wisconsin fancies itself too high-brow to be in a conference with a lower academic standing. Changing home-state politics (as in the case of Purdue) might make a bang for buck switch compelling. ”
They can target anyone they wish, but there is literally zero chance of the B12 taking NE and WI from the B10 in the next few decades. The academics at NE are thrilled with the move to the B10, and the president is one of them. That trumps any sports concerns. Besides, they’re about to start getting $40M+ per year. WI has even less reason to leave.
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Lessee. Jump from a richer league with better academics and a bigger footprint to a league with by far the smallest footprint of the P5, that exists solely due to the whims of Texas, that actually produces less football talent in its footprint than the B10 footprint, and which the other king had tried to escape from not too long ago. Also end the longest-played rivalry in top level college football. Just to take less money.
I think it’s compelling. I’m sure UW and UNL would consider an overtures from the B12 seriously.
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Any raid of the B10 will not come from the B12. ESPN doesn’t control enough content in that conference to make that possible. Remember, their goal is to hoard all college sports and ward off competitors.
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Riiiight…
Exactly who might be in enough desperate need that ESPN being willing to provide in the form of a temporary media contract that would be worth considering giving up all the other benefits of B1G membership?
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@Frank:
I agree with everything you said, and I just want to add that the NFL–the most popular sport in the country–realizes that mass exposure is the only way to remain popular and grow, too. Nothing demonstrates the value of massive reach more than the league taking games from its own television network and selling them to a broadcast network, potentially weakening the NFLN somewhat, but done with the realization that nothing tops broadcast tv in terms of reach. NFLN ratings grew well for the league, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the new TNF ratings at least double last years ratings on the NFLN. Such is the power of mass exposure.
For college sports, especially football, Delany & Co. know that nothing equates to ESPN’s reach and promotional power (and access to ABC’s broadcast network). All the major conference heads know this, which is why all have deals in some form with ESPN. That mass exposure is unmatched, and is quite valuable for the B1G, I expect Delany to make sure his conference is secure with that exposure over the long haul when the next TV deal is negotiated. For the B1G, nothing tops having those ABC Saturday Night games.
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I think one factor you overlook is the NFL is one of the few sports properties that can make broadcast work. A league like MLS would have trouble finding spots on a broadcast network. Broadcasters demand ratings that make it worthwhile to replace what would air on a regular weekend. It seems that weeknights are becoming the same issue, although not to the same extent as weekends.
This leads me to question whether B1G fans do not have confidence in their own league if they think that exposure on ABC couldn’t be replicated on NBC or Fox. OK, maybe NBC is out because of the Domers. So that leaves Fox as a possible replacement. Let’s remember that Fox already own stations in Chicago, Detroit, New York, Philadelphia and Washington. ABC doesn’t own stations in Cleveland, Washington and Detroit, AFAIK. This is somewhat important as O&O stations could be used for additional promotion for Big Ten teams. Also, Fox, via their ownership of WDCA, WWOR, WPWR, could promote local Big Ten teams in each respective area. Local stations already do a lot of promotion with the NFL teams. If I can see the possibility, surely I would think Delany or the B1G office can.
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@Transic – The issue is NOT whether coverage on over-the-air NBC or Fox could be competitive with ABC. Those are all more or less equal. However, FS1 and NBCSN do not provide anywhere near the same level of exposure of ESPN. That is where the difference lies and yes, the Big Ten has to care about that in a world where sports fans instinctively turn on ESPN and recruits want to be seen on GameDay and SportsCenter *specifically* (not just on any random TV program). At best, FS1 and NBCSN are substitutes for ESPN2 and ESPNU (fine for lower 2nd tier games, but not for 1st tier/high 2nd tier games. In contrast, the ESPN mothership is akin to an over-the-air network in terms of coverage.
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Transic,
“This leads me to question whether B1G fans do not have confidence in their own league if they think that exposure on ABC couldn’t be replicated on NBC or Fox. OK, maybe NBC is out because of the Domers. So that leaves Fox as a possible replacement.”
The problem is that there is much more ABC/ESPN synergy and cross-promotion than there is Fox/FS1. Could it work? Sure. The SEC does fine on CBS. But ABC is where the casual fan expects to find the biggest primetime games. Not being on there has a cost.
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I think the B10 will keep a Game-of-the-week like the SEC does (for bidding in 2016) and sign a lucrative deal with ESPN for the bulk of games in the 2nd tier.
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Back to the important subject, college baseball. ESPN has released their schedule. Heavy with ACC, SEC, and Big12, with an occasional PAC12 game thrown in.
http://espnmediazone.com/us/press-releases/2014/02/espn-networks-air-regular-season-college-baseball-games-ever/
The rich will continue to get richer while conferences like CUSA get ignored. It seems to me that the money in college baseball is about to shoot upward. And the SEC and ACC are positioned to grab the majority of it.
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Then again, on this schedule, I count 3 games on ESPN, 4 on ESPN2, and 2 on ESPNews. The balance are on ESPNU and ESPN3 (online streaming).
College baseball still has a ways to go. Looks more like filler for ESPN’s lesser networks right now.
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Which will leave quite a bit of valuable inventory for conference networks.
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If the Big Ten hockey teams can each get $2M from the BTN, SEC baseball teams could get something, rather than the next-to-nothing they get now.
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Is ice on the ball a foreign substance?
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Speaking of college baseball, I thought this was interesting.
http://www.cornnation.com/2012/3/1/2835120/purdues-doug-schreiber-big-ten-baseball-scheduling-improving-rpi-inequity-difficult
A NE blogger wrote a piece about B10 baseball and how the teams need to schedule better to raise their RPIs. He got an email response from PU’s baseball coach, which he published in the article linked above.
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Brian – Purdue is doing it’s part to pump up their RPI by playing a weekend series in Baton Rouge next month.
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As their coach pointed out, the problem is that the B10 can almost always only get games like that on the road and early in the year. It’s of limited help to schedule hard and lose many of the games because they’re all road games. Later in the season, they are forced to play weaker local teams to get drivable weekday games.
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Brian – if they can steal a win though, the RPI greatly rewards road wins.
My solution for the B1G’s baseball problems is for the conference to buy Dodgertown in Vero Beach, or some other vacant spring training facility, and send all the teams down there for the beginning of the spring semester. The guys players could take classes online, practice in better weather than most SEC/ACC/Big-12/Pac-12 schools, and play the early portion of their schedule in Florida. Then they would move back to their respective campuses by March 1.
Sure, the conference would have to build some dorms and maybe a few classrooms, but it would level the playing field with the sunbelt schools, and serve as a great recruiting tools (a two month spring break). The Midwest snowbirds would love it as well.
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Unfortunately, they actually don’t play at home until mid-March. That’s a long time to take online classes, but doable in the future as the technology improves. For example, OSU starts with 14 road/neutral games this year IIRC. All the OOC games after the B10 season starts are local (and mostly bad for the RPI).
I think the B10 would be wiser to just drop baseball like WI did since the NCAA’s rules are so skewed to favor the south and west. That would send a stronger message than anything else they’ve tried, plus it would stop wasting resources.
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It is not the NCAA that makes the B1G poor in baseball. A lot of sports are regional. Who plays men’s lacrosse or ice hockey in the SEC, B12 or P12? Even if all of the B1G members dropped baseball and softball the other 4 power conferences will still sponsor those sports and the rules will not change. The B1G does better in softball, so maybe the women have better weather.
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No, it’s the season starting in February and players knowing they’ll be on the road for the first month of every season if they play up north, and even after that they’ll deal with near-freezing conditions sometimes. MLB doesn’t expect teams to play during February or most of March in the north.
Any talented northern player knows he should either go to the minors or go south/west to play if he wants a MLB career. Staying in the north is an unnecessary obstacle. Softball players don’t have those same career opportunities, so local players are more willing to stay home.
To be clear, I’m fine with baseball being regional. I’d just rather see the B10 quit wasting money on it than keep being so far below the top schools.
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Eh. Schools “waste” money on a bunch of sports. All except football, basketball, hockey, maybe volleyball and wrestling, in fact.
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The waste isn’t losing money on the sport, it’s losing money to produce glorified club level teams year after year. Rarely does an entire power conference perform that poorly in a sport across the board for decades. B10 baseball is like MN football – a power in the 60s and basically mediocre at best ever since.
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The Pac12 wants fewer night football games:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2014/02/10/pac-12-football-relief-from-the-night-game-nightmare/
But I also thought I read that the really late Sat night telecasts had decent ratings this past season.
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P12 didn’t seem to understand what they agreed to.
I wonder how much they’ll have to pay the networks to reduce or eliminate the exclusivity window.
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The P12N has the ability to select first twice and second five times during the season. They can bargain with the value of the games they choose to leave available to Fox/ESPN for those weeks.
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TV ratings, yes. Butts in the seats for November games ending after 10:30 pm, many with hundreds of miles to travel, some through Mtn passes, and only one interstate? That can be depressed.
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http://www.omaha.com/article/20140209/NEWS/140208719/1002#unl-s-big-ten-windfall-around-the-corner
More details on NE’s B10 revenues.
2011 – $14.3M
2012 – $15M
2013 – up to $16.9M
So did Nebraska get a raw deal? Only if you look at the short term.
Other numbers uncovered by The World-Herald suggest Nebraska in three years is headed for a big financial score with the Big Ten.
In 2017, when Nebraska will finally be on equal financial footing with the core Big Ten schools, the school’s annual revenue from the conference could well swell to between $40 million and $50 million a year.
Such a figure is astounding compared with four years ago, when the Big 12 paid NU $9 million.
The university in 2017 also gains a full ownership share in the Big Ten’s TV network, which analysts have valued at more than $1.3 billion.
UNL Chancellor Harvey Perlman says he has no regrets over the deal he negotiated with the Big Ten in 2010.
Also:
Nebraska agreed to wait six years to gain a full share of Big Ten revenue. It received $14 million the first year, $15 million last year and will receive no more than $16.9 million this year — each figure roughly $10 million short of a full share.
Even though Nebraska is taking in less league revenue than most major schools — and paid a $9 million penalty for leaving the Big 12, to boot — those costs can be viewed as a down payment on its ownership stake in BTN. Based on the television network’s estimated value, that stake in 2017 could be easily worth more than $50 million.
And:
League projections obtained by The World-Herald suggest a full Big Ten revenue share in 2016 will be worth $35 million. Given that, an industry source said the TV deal will likely boost the annual share in 2017 to $40 million to $50 million.
As to UMD and RU:
Did the University of Maryland get a better deal from the Big Ten than Nebraska?
There seems little doubt Maryland will be receiving more money than NU, from the very start of its league entry this fall. But Big Ten officials maintain that the underlying principles of the two deals are the same.
…
But to get Maryland, the Big Ten had to pay a price — apparently many millions more in league payouts than Nebraska is being paid.
Sports Illustrated and the Washington Post both report Maryland negotiated a front-loaded deal, with league money it would have received far in the future moved into the pact’s first six years. The school will reportedly receive $32 million next year and $43 million by 2017.
(emphasis mine)
…
But Brad Traviolia, the Big Ten’s deputy commissioner, said the Big Ten essentially followed the same template in its deals with Nebraska, Rutgers and Maryland.
The Big Ten used the same six-year phase-in term. And all the deals attempt to hold schools harmless — that is, ensure that schools do not lose money compared with what they were receiving from their old leagues.
Because the schools were coming from different leagues, with varying levels of conference revenue, that required different hold harmless payments. It took only $14 million two years ago to hold Nebraska harmless when it left the Big 12.
Traviolia would not confirm that Maryland’s deal was front-loaded. But he said he believed all three schools are treated equally over the long run.
It appears that even with the big penalty Maryland could face, the Big Ten’s higher payouts over time compared with the ACC’s turned the move into a financial winner for the school.
Less is known about Rutgers’ deal. But its previous conference, the Big East, was self-destructing into a basketball-only league and reportedly paid the school less than $10 million. If the Big Ten indeed followed the same principles, Rutgers’ phase-in payments would be smaller than Nebraska’s.
In the end, NU Chancellor Harvey Perlman said he voted in favor of both Maryland’s and Rutgers’ entry into the Big Ten — doing so with full knowledge of the terms.
Said Perlman: “I have no concern that Nebraska was treated unfairly relative to Rutgers, relative to Maryland, or relative to where we would have been had we not gone into the league.”
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http://omaha.com/article/20140210/news/140219937
They also had a chat that may answer some other questions people have.
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Interesting. They will be about $25 million behind Iowa St. over their first 3 years in the league. And that doesn’t count anything they could have earned from their Tier III. They probably could have come close to OU’s $7 million. Its going to take a long time to catch up.
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Which years?
In 2012 & 2013, they made less than ISU, but in 2011, the B12 was still under the old TV deal, if I recall correctly, and UNL would have made more.
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Look at the chart in the article. I am including the start of their 1st year in the Big 10 (last Big 12 distribution) when they paid the $9 million exit fee. Also, I don’t think the 2011 figure for the Big 12 is correct, but I don’t have a link handy, so I’m using a zero difference on that year. I think it was closer to $17 million. The Big 12 got a “bonus” on their new contract.
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bullet,
“Interesting. They will be about $25 million behind Iowa St. over their first 3 years in the league. And that doesn’t count anything they could have earned from their Tier III. They probably could have come close to OU’s $7 million. Its going to take a long time to catch up.”
What value are you assigning to their equal share in the BTN? That’s an asset ISU certainly won’t have in 2017.
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In fairness to Nebraska, no one had any clue at that time the contracts would be increasing so much (for the Big 12 and Pac 12). It was another month before the Big 12 realized and the South schools stayed.
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Confirms what many have always said: Nebraska got a junior membership deal for the first 5 or 6 years. They’ll end up losing out on $60M+.
The BIg 12 did the same thing to WVU and TCU, and the Pac 12 did it to Utah.
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Compared to what? They’re gaining a stake in an already successful and up-and-running money-making conference channel.
The B12 doesn’t have anything like that.
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They are not getting a junior membership. They are buying into their equity share of the BTN which is currently valued at $1.3 billion per the authors from Omaha.com. The value they have earned is already around $50 million. If you add the value they’ve earned in the BTN and the distributions they’ve received they are much farther ahead of their Big 12 counterparts.
The value they are receiving in the BTN is often underplayed. It’s always possible down the road that the B1G membership sells its ownership interest in the BTN back to Fox.
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Mizzou and A&M didn’t have to buy into the SEC. Full members from day 1.
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The SEC had nothing Mizzou or Texas A&M had to buy into. Half of the substantial start up costs for the BTN were paid for by the members schools. Nebraska, Rutgers, and Maryland shouldn’t enjoy the profits without investing any of their own money. The BIG didn’t screw anybody. I am not sure why the Big 12 is withholding money though.
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What PSUhockey said, BTN members invested substantial amounts of money to get the BTN started up. Any conference with a conference owned network will do the same as the B10 did to Nebraska, Maryland and Rutgers.
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They did have to “buy in” to some things. They got lesser distributions for, as the article termed it, “revenue earned in prior years.” Presumably they didn’t get basketball tourney revenue earned in prior years.
But they didn’t have to “buy” membership as is typical. The SEC obviously really wanted A&M and couldn’t offer Missouri, from the same conference, a lesser deal. The Pac 12 did give Colorado a better deal than Utah. And Rutgers didn’t get the revenue floors that Nebraska and Maryland got.
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PSU and wolve—I’ve seen the statement that BIG 10 members made substantial investment in the BTN before….but I’ve not seen any $ figures……PSU says the BIG paid 1/2 the start-up costs…..my thought/memory was that FOX essentially paid the start-up costs. Either of you have any links or direct info on this?
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@mushroomgod – The Big Ten didn’t pay startup costs for the BTN. There’s a reference to that in this article here:
http://www.sportsbusinessnews.com/content/five-years-after-its-launch-big-ten-network-celebrated-whopping-success
However, even though there weren’t out-of-pocket costs, we shouldn’t forget how BIG of a risk it was for the Big Ten to sign those over those rights to the BTN back in 2007. It’s waaaaaaaaay too easy for fans from other conferences to look back with 20/20 hindsight, see how successful the BTN ended up, and then try to downplay the amount of risk involved and why the 11 older Big Ten members take that equity so seriously. The creation of the BTN wasn’t anything close to a no-brainer – the Big Ten could have easily taken an upfront payment from ESPN just as every other conference had done prior to that time. There was a ton of consternation about whether the BTN would end up getting basic carriage. Fans b*tched and moaned during the first season when the BTN was fighting with the likes of Comcast. Anyone in a leadership position in the Big Ten back in 2007 and had to sign off to pull the trigger on the BTN were
legitimately putting their necks on the line without any guarantee of success. Nebraska, Maryland and Rutgers are going to end up being the beneficiaries of that eventual success, but they never had to put their necks on the line in the way that the other Big Ten members did.
The concept of the “junior membership” that Andy keeps suggesting about is infuriating and absolutely ridiculous. The SEC does NOT own any asset like the BTN, so any comparisons to them on “equal shares” is irrelevant. The SEC does not own a single bit of equity in the new SEC Network (it’s fully-owned by ESPN), so Missouri and Texas A&M have nothing to buy into in the way that the new Big Ten members do. Kudos to Mizzou and A&M for getting full revenue shares right away in the SEC (I don’t begrudge them for that), but the quid pro quo is that they’re not getting equity ownership in anything (and as we’ve seen with the recent sale of the YES Network, such equity ownership can be quite substantial far beyond the annual rights fees).
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Lots of interesting stuff in that story and chat…..
To answer my own question below, looks like the “hold harmless” to NEB was only for year 1. Therefore, NEB got a double whammy when the Big 12 TV contract expired, and they were still not getting a full Big 10 share. Thing is, as the story mentions, they are fillthy rich anyway, to the extent that the ath dept. is paying the academic side $2.5/year.
I can understand the buy-in, unlike Andy, but I think it has more to do with the equity in the network than to reimbursement of start-up expense……I’d be very interested in seeing what actual start-up expenses were to the Big 10 schools. I sure don’t remember any stories about IU or Purdue putting $20M in……it seems to me that was FOX’ role.
It does seem to me NEB gets screwed in one respect…..there is nothing paid for the value NEB immediately added to the BTN by making more more attractive programming……..
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Great post and points Frank. I actually thought it was a crazy move at the time, primarily because even IF it worked (which seemed doubtful), it seemed to me the Big 10 would be the guinea pig for other conferences….that they could just come in, start their own networks, and avoid the mistakes the Big 10 had made……… seems that was not the case.
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Didn’t Fox take extra $ in the early years to fund startup costs? I seem to recall reading that was why the school distributions shot up about 3 years ago.
The Big 10 didn’t take that much risk. I’ve never seen a breakout, but their payments include rights fees in addition to profit. Fox took the risk. The premier games are not on the BTN.
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Conferences almost always charge membership fees which often get taken out of distributions. There is equity in the conference brand and future contracts. There is money spent promoting that brand. The Big 12 had to scrap a $1-$2 million program designed after CU and NU left when the next two left.
So A&M and Missouri did get substantial equity with joining the SEC. However, they gave up equity by leaving the Big 12 (as well as bb tourney credits), so they swung a good deal with the SEC. Utah, TCU, WVU and Rutgers didn’t have that type of leverage.
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bullet, I think you’re right…..that there was a certain amount that went back to FOX off the top as reimbursement…….
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I’m interested in a couple of other aspects of the news article…..First, the asserted academic benefits of being in the BT…..I can never tell how much of that stuff is bs and how much is real……I do think that the more it’s discussed, the more it becomes real….to me, it seems like there are genuine benefits to the IU, Purdue, Iowa, Neb, and MSU…..not so much to NW, UM, ILL, Wisconsin. I have always felt that Frank is a little to open to lowering the academic profile….for this reason, I liked the MD/Rutgers addition over a possible MO/KU addition.
The other interesting aspect is the “equity” in the BTN. Given that no present school looks to “sell” that equity, of what present value is it? In other words, isn’t the current value of the BTN it’s present and expected revenue streams? Now the interesting question about BTN equity is what happens when the Big/Fox deal expires……what in the world happens then? Do the parties simply reup, does FOX sell….does the Big have the negotiating advantage?
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When the Fox deal expires, the B1G take full ownership of the network. Its the gamble Fox took. In practice, the parties will renegotiate before then.
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@Frank, yes, I’ve heard all of the fancy talk about “buying in” and “equity”, but all it really is is an elaborate excuse for squeezing new members for as much as they can squeeze them for.
Nebraska
Maryland
Rutgers
Utah
West Virginia
TCU
All of those schools have different prices that they agreed to. Not one is the same as another on that list.
It was a negotiation. It was not about “this is how much you need to buy in for us to be able to afford having you as part of this conference network” or whatever. That’s all baloney. The conference network is relatively new and none of the pre-existing members had to buy in with a dime of actual revenue. Meanwhile every school on that list was out there performing, competing, building up a following, and developing their own brands in their previous conferences.
The new conferences are acquiring those brands and those followings and those markets and those reputations of those institutions. The question then becomes “how much is it worth to us?”
So how much is Nebraska worth to the Big Ten? Well, now we know.
And it’s a different number than what Rutgers was worth and what Maryland was worth, and those two were worth different from each other.
West Virginia was worth different than TCU.
Colorado was worth different from Utah.
And it’s not just about how much the conference is willing to offer. It’s also about how little a school is willing to take.
Neither A&M nor Missouri were desperate to join the SEC.
Both schools told the SEC that they needed full payment from day one if they were going to join.
That was the price required for the SEC to acquire those two institutions.
The SEC deemed it a worthwhile investment.
If Notre Dame came knocking a couple of years ago and told the B1G we want to join the B1G, but we’ll only take full membership from day 1, would the B1G have agreed?
You bet your ass they would have agreed. All that “buy in” and “equity” baloney would have been thrown out the window in about two seconds.
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@Andy:
“And it’s not just about how much the conference is willing to offer. It’s also about how little a school is willing to take.
Neither A&M nor Missouri were desperate to join the SEC.
Both schools told the SEC that they needed full payment from day one if they were going to join.”
This is the critical part. Its not what the B1G or SEC valued the teams it added, its what it would cost them to add relative to the value.
If you have the choice of purchasing a Lexus at sticker price, and purchasing the same exact Lexus for $4,000 less, you obviously try to save the $4k.
In the B1G-Nebraska situation, the B1G saw an opportunity to get an elite brand name who was looking to escape an uncertain situation with the Big 12 and was able to drive a hard bargain as a result. Nebraska had nowhere else to go, no viable option.
Rutgers obviously had no other viable option, but the B1G saw an opportunity to get east coast exposure at a short and medium term discount. For Maryland, it was the mid-Atlantic exposure it coveted. But UMD also had options (staying in the ACC) so there was more of an equal footing for negotiation.
Mizzou and A&M were in a stronger position to bargain with the SEC, as the SEC clearly wanted to expand, and was looking for new markets–and A&M & Mizzou were among the best and most easily obtainable options, but both schools had stability in its conference affiliation (even if less lucrative).
But your larger implication that somehow A&M and Mizzou are more worthy or better additions or superior based on this doesn’t compute.
Remember, the article cited above also states:
“The Big Ten used the same six-year phase-in term. And all the deals attempt to hold schools harmless — that is, ensure that schools do not lose money compared with what they were receiving from their old leagues.
Because the schools were coming from different leagues, with varying levels of conference revenue, that required different hold harmless payments. It took only $14 million two years ago to hold Nebraska harmless when it left the Big 12.”
The hold-harmless payments were relative to what they were receiving in their original conference. This is the same deal either Mizzou or A&M would have gotten if joining the B1G, which at one time, was something Mizzou wanted to do very badly, and made it very clear and public. That Mizzou is now in a great situation, and possibly more lucrative one, will never change that.
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The SEC owns almost nothing. They don’t even own their conference offices. There is nothing to “buy-in”. The SEC constitution and by-laws provide a process for how new members join and how existing members can quit. I think the SEC’s membership dues are $10 year.
In the latest round of conference realignment, the SEC wasn’t desperate to expand but A&M and the SEC have been flirting with each other since the early 90s when LSU AD Joe Dean and A&M AD (and Louisiana native) John David Crow first broached the subject when the SWC was on life support. When the Pac-16 looked imminent with the Big XII implosion as a by-product, A&M, led by Gene Stallings, wanted to go to the SEC. Then the B-12 was saved by Fox and ESPN, so A&M stayed. A year later, with the establishment of the LHN as an excuse (and the Texas legislature not in session) A&M had second thoughts about the new B-12 and wanted to join the SEC.
Sure, the SEC wanted them as they had for 20 years. But no special deal was cut for the Aggies or Mizzou for that matter. When a school is a member of the SEC, its a member of the SEC. Pass a vote by the existing members and pay your $10, and you’re in with all the rights and privileges that go along with full membership, including a full share (1/15th) of the money. The SEC office also gets a cut.
With Texas A&M in, the SEC was prepared to go with 13 members for a year or more. They didn’t want to, but were prepared to do it. When Mizzou looked like the best candidate, the PTB in Columbia did some hand-wringing, but decided to join and then wanted in without giving the B-12 much notice. That decision was theirs, not the SEC’s. Things were complicated by Ken Starr and Baylor who wanted sue everybody.
If Mizzou had said no, the SEC would have moved down the list, just like they did in the early 90s when Florida State, after 20 years of applying for SEC membership, said no, and invited South Carolina. Mizzou didn’t dictate terms to the SEC. They joined the SEC under the same terms as did Arkansas, South Carolina, and Texas A&M.
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