While the realignment action at the BCS conference level has come to a standstill, BYU is aiming to be a next-tier combination of Notre Dame and Texas and possibly causing a massive upheaval at the non-AQ level with its reported proposal to become a football independent and become a member of the WAC for all other sports. (The Salt Lake Tribune is calling this a “done deal”.) If BYU pulls the trigger on going independent, I believe that it would be a brilliant move for the school and, interestingly enough, a great opportunity for the BCS conferences.
BYU has long been one of the most interesting potential players in the college conference realignment story. From a pure financial and fan base perspective, BYU should’ve been invited to a BCS conference many years ago. The Cougars sell out every home game, travel en masse to bowl games, and garner a national TV audience with LDS members. Political factors, though, have killed BYU’s chances of getting into the Pac-10 (as the California-based schools have a myriad of issues where it has clashed with LDS positions) and its no-playing-on-Sunday rule has been a nagging problem for other conferences. With its in-state rival of Utah heading down the yellow brick road to BCS AQ status in 2011 and the Big IIX unlikely to expand for several years, BYU has been at risk of getting left behind.
Count me in as someone that believes that BCS AQ status is far from a sure thing for the Mountain West Conference. If there is a way for the other BCS conferences to avoid inviting in the MWC, it will absolutely exploit it – they have ZERO desire to give up $18 million per year and an at-large BCS bowl slot. If BYU’s leadership has been evaluating everything realistically, they have realized that this is the case and came to the conclusion that if it wants any reasonable chance of becoming one of the insiders to the BCS, it would need to become independent.
Is BYU on the level of Notre Dame in terms of casual fan popularity? Of course not. However, BYU has an asset that no other school in the entire country has (and what Texas has banked its entire future upon creating): its own television network. This isn’t some type of fly-by-night operation. BYU-TV has a state-of-art studio, the most advanced HD live event production truck in the entire Western half of the United States, 60 million U.S. subscribers (including every single DirecTV household) and 40 million subscribers outside of the U.S. While I have never actually watched BYU-TV and presume that its programming lineup currently consists of telecasts of church services, stories of mission trips, a reality TV show featuring Jim McMahon visiting and reviewing every single bar in Chicago, and the Steve Young edition of “The Bachelor”, the key point is that BYU already has a ready-made and widely distributed cable TV platform to take its sports properties in-house. My understanding is that BYU makes approximately $1.5 million per year from the current MWC TV deals. That is a fairly low threshold to cross if the school turns BYU-TV into a revenue generator for sports events (currently, the network relies on donations and subscriptions similar to PBS) since it has 100 million international households already in the fold. This isn’t even counting the fact that ESPN or another network would likely be willing to pay a premium for BYU’s top games. If Army and Navy can strike deals on their own with national networks, there’s no reason that BYU wouldn’t be able to do it even better.
That’s all fluff compared to the big picture, though. Maybe it’s because I have spent my entire life (other than my college years in Champaign) living and/or working in Cook County, but when Slant reader loki_the_bubba posted the initial rumors about this BYU story last night, my immediate thought was this: “Political payoff.” As we all know, this is perfectly legal under Federal law.
There seems to be this growing assumption that an independent BYU won’t be able to receive the same type of preferential treatment from the BCS system as Notre Dame does today. However, I vehemently disagree with this notion, and it has little to do with college football games themselves and everything to do with Capitol Hill. Which politician has spent more time bashing the BCS system, calling for hearings on the issue and demanding regulation more than any other? Senator Orrin Hatch (R-Utah). What school did Sen. Hatch attend? Brigham Young University. Let’s list out the potential scenarios:
SCENARIO A: BYU stays in the MWC. In 2 years, the MWC meets the BCS AQ numerical criteria and the BCS conferences decide to let the conference into the party. This means that the BCS conferences have to give up at least $18 million per year and an at-large bowl slot.
SCENARIO B: BYU stays in the MWC. In 2 years, the MWC meets the BCS AQ numerical criteria, but the BCS conferences decide to keep the MWC on the outside because it makes zero financial sense to invite them in. Sen. Hatch raises a political and legal shitstorm unlike anything seen before and puts the entire BCS system in jeopardy.
SCENARIO C: BYU becomes a football independent, but the BCS conferences don’t give the school a Notre Dame-type deal. Sen. Hatch raises a political and legal shitstorm unlike anything seen before and puts the entire BCS system in jeopardy.
SCENARIO D: BYU becomes a football independent and the BCS conferences extend the school a Notre Dame-type deal. With both Utah and BYU now within the BCS system, Sen. Hatch suddenly has a new-found love for the BCS bowls and Washington leaves college football alone entirely. Meanwhile, it cuts the legs out from under the MWC and any other viable non-AQ upgrade possibility.
I don’t know about you, but it looks like paying BYU a couple of million bucks per year as an independent under Scenario D in order to preserve a cartel of hundreds of millions of dollars, extinguish its most prominent opponent in Washington AND destroy the MWC’s chances of ever moving up to AQ status makes a whole lot of business and political sense if you’re running the BCS. Plus, it’s going to be fairly rare that BYU will garner a top 8 final BCS ranking (which is where Notre Dame needs to rank in order to receive an automatic BCS bid), so it virtually preserves an at-large BCS slot for the current AQ conferences. It’s a win-win-win for BYU, Sen. Hatch and the BCS system overall. Unfortunately, the MWC will find a new definition of pain and suffering, as it is slowly digested over a thousand years in the Sarlacc pit of the non-AQ world.
In summary, BYU has an international TV network, a widespread built-in following with the LDS, and political clout of the highest order that can be leveraged into BCS access on par with Notre Dame. From where I’m standing, it almost makes too much sense for BYU to declare its independence.
(Follow Frank the Tank’s Slant on Twitter @frankthetank111)
(Image from Deseret News)
As always, Hawkeyes #1!!!
LikeLike
add
LikeLike
WOW
LikeLike
As a die-hard Cougar fan, I’m glued to this news and can’t get anything done at work. Assuming this is true, I have a few thoughts:
(1) As a BYU basketball fan, I don’t like the move. Although Utah left, we still had some good hoops rivalries with UNLV, SDSU, and New Mexico and those are all good teams. I know basketball doesn’t drive the bus, but this should still be said.
(2) As a football fan, I think this could be a huge breakthrough, as long as BYU can fill the schedule toward the end of the season. USC and Stanford are willing to play Notre Dame in October or November, but will anyone want to play BYU during those months? I sure hope so. Still after suffering through games on the obscure and poorly-run Mtn. channel, I would love to see some ESPN games, even against weaker teams (of which the MWC has plenty).
(3) How does this relate to a Big 12 invite? I think more than anything, BYU wants to be in that conference. Does this move help its chances of getting in? BYU no longer needs to give one year’s notice in order to join the Big 12. Could this have been a factor in the decision? Could BYU somehow lend its broadcasting facilities to Texas for a while in exchange for membership in the Big 12?
Any thoughts?
LikeLike
For part 2:
Scheduling-wise, I think the plan is to play a mini-conference schedule against WAC teams in October or November. Given that base, BYU shouldn’t have too much trouble filling out the rest.
For part 3:
I don’t think a Big 12 invite is coming. I could see a “games for gear” trade where Texas agrees to a series of games in exchange for broadcasting equipment and expertise, but I think they only get into the Big 12 if something drastic happens and I’m not sure BYU would want to join whatever remnants remain after that scenario.
BYU’s decision makes me more certain that independence is Texas’ eventual goal.
LikeLike
One4themoney, I’m predicting the Cougs rethink their decision and stay in the MWC. Makes no sense to go independent when conferences are still gobbling teams up. For me, the Cougars might be the eye of a much bigger storm, that being just how much Congress gets involved in the BCS business. Using some of Frank’s material, I’ve written about it at my blog at: http://thepolesposition.com/2010/08/22/bcs-monopoly-and-why-byus-new-holy-war-may-reshape-college-football/.
Too long to post here, but if interested, check it out.
LikeLike
On the BYU-ND comparison:
I know that BYU hasn’t played the same level of competition, but over the last 30 years they have the same number of national titles (1) and a substantially higher winning percentage (.709 to .644).
I totally agree with the idea that BYU can get similar type access as Notre Dame, at least money-wise. Frankly, if I were BYU I wouldn’t want the Top 8 rule. I think BYU would be taken anyway if they were ranked that highly and that rule has caused nothing but spleen towards ND. (ND would probably be better off without it anyway).
I wonder if they could work it into the current “highest non-BCS team gets in if they are in the top 12”. That would probably cover most situations.
Does anyone know what sort of deal Navy and Army have with the BCS?
LikeLike
When I read the BCS qualifications last year there was no mention of any deal with Army or Navy. In fact, neither one could qualify for a BCS game unless they were ranked #1 or #2. The qualifications explicitly stated that anyone outside the 6 AQ conferences or Notre Dame must be a conference champion to get an at-large bid.
LikeLike
Maybe I’m missing something, but wouldn’t this be an opportunity to remove Notre Dame’s special provisions in the BSC agreement? If it looks like more teams might become independant, why not have all teams regardless of conference affiliation on the same playing field? Otherwise, aren’t you opening the door for every top team to go independent?
Just asking.
LikeLike
After reading this post, I thought if 2 words: poor Boise.
I also thought that BYU (and BSU) would go to the Big XII. We shall see…,,
LikeLike
I don’t buy politics in this case. It’s possible, but the Mountain West wasn’t going to meet all requirements even before everyone decided to leave. Utah leaving cemented that they could be left out and as much as politicians like to talk and take power they have no constitutional right to, they haven’t yet and would have even less reason to after Utah joined a BCS AQ conference.
Again not dismissing the idea competely, but I think the more likely case is that BYU decided it couldn’t accept being in a lesser conference than Utah. In the long run, it would lose value because of it. They didn’t have the choice of going into a AQ conference and thus left for independence.
LikeLike
Go Bucks!
LikeLike
Air Force going indy also?
LikeLike
Ham sammich.
LikeLike
I think it’s easy to give BYU the same deal as Notre Dame because ND gave up a lot in the last renegotiation.
I mean ND takes less on avg than a BCS school when it doesn’t make it ($1.3M) and it gets the 2nd level payout when it does make Top 8 ($4.5M).
I really don’t see it as being difficult to give BYU some kind of deal similar to that, or if they’re stingy maybe $500-750k per year and $2-3M when it does reach and make it Top 6.
But ND’s deal isn’t really that expensive since they took what looks like a substantial discount to help put money back into the system.
Giving BYU $1.3M each year and potentially $4.5M if it makes the BCS is peanuts compared to having to giving the MWC the same $18M per year and a guaranteed slot that the Big 6 conferences get…
And there’s no way the MWC ever gets an AQ slot if it can’t raid the WAC due to the $5M penalty in place now: just Boise State and TCU aren’t going to cut it.
The question of course is what Boise State and TCU do about this?
Does Boise State turn its back on the MWC and go back to the WAC?
Would it do that if TCU somehow gets out of the MWC? The MWC could collapse because of this…
LikeLike
adding
LikeLike
adding part 2
LikeLike
expanding
LikeLike
Good and interesting post, but Hatch doesn’t and won’t have THAT much power.
I wouldn’t count on the B12-2 expanding back to 12 and inviting BYU, and especially not BYU and ND being #11 & 12. While ND, TX, OU, and BYU could make a nice foundation for a possible Independence Alliance (conference in all but name,) any such combo is only a backup plan in case the B10+? decides to go to 16 and the SEC follows. Even then, it might be more a ploy for negotiating leverage than a preferred endgame (and such an alliance may never have even been discussed by TX and ND.)
My take is BYU:
1. Wants more money. You can basically stop there.
2. Had a strong suspicion that the BCS was going to screw over the MWC no matter what.
3. Had a high chance of being frozen out of any 4×16 arrangement. P16 is 98% out, even if TX doesn’t head west, and BYU is a lone outpost too far west if the other surviving 3 super conferences end up being the B10+?, SEC, and ACC. So why not go ahead and become independent and work out any kinks before the big realignment hits? Might give them a better understanding of how best to protect their interests when super realignment talks and politics go into overdrive.
As to future realignment, only the B10+? and SEC are safe. Everybody else has an Achilles’ heel.
LikeLike
BTW, does UHou have a shot of talking their way into being a travel partner for TCU with the Big Least?
LikeLike
Again, I agree with you. I think TCU will now be exploring better options, and since the Big 12 door will continue to be closed to the Frogs, looking east, including the possibility of being paired with UH (whose basketball pedigree makes them a better Big East school than one might imagine), is a very realistic option.
LikeLike
A caveat:
One reason the B12-2 is in a holding pattern is to see if 12 does indeed remain the conference standard. If the B10+? stops at 12 and the conferences stabilize, then BYU might join one more to get the B12-2 back to 12.
However I’d say it is more likely that Delany continues acquisitions.
Meanwhile, in Aggieland, Bill Byrne compares aTm’s prospects in the SEC to Arkansas and S. Carolina’s:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/colleges/texasam/stories/081110dnospobyrne.2958444.html
E-mails obtained by The Dallas Morning News through open records requests revealed how Byrne handled some of the fallout from the decision to bypass the SEC.
“We had the chance to gain the upper hand and you guys couldn’t pull the trigger,” one fan wrote Byrne.
Byrne responded in part: “Take a look how Arkansas and South Carolina did before they entered the SEC and how they have done since. Unless you’re the lead dog, the scenery is always the same.”
LikeLike
Aggies:
LikeLike
Playoffs,
I’m going to agree with you on this one. I was going to post that this better positions BYU for being one of the 64 if we move to a 4×16 world in four-five years, but you beat me to it.
That’s the Gordian Knot explanation, which is easier to digest than a behind-the-scenes political power play having caused this.
LikeLike
Oh yeah,
This may suggest that BYU is confident that no matter if 4×16 happens or other realignment, ND will be able to remain independent and won’t be frozen out by the BCS or whatever replaces it.
I’d say ND ever to the B10+? is 90% dead.
LikeLike
I agree with you and Hopkins Horn on all points.
And I think ND to the Big Ten is totally dead for the next 10 years unless there’s something unfathomable like multiple 4 win seasons happens.
Delany is looking East, and it seems as if Rutgers + 1 is likely to be an outcome if it brings enough $ to justify it.
I think the Big Ten will go to 14 and then see what happens; it is possible that it stays at 12, but I think Delany really wants to be sure that he has the Big Ten as well positioned as he can leave it before he retires.
LikeLike
Scenario E: God & Country or The Well Endowed Conference (WEC) 🙂
East = ND, BC, Army, Navy, VT(CoC), Syracuse
West = BYU, TCU, AF, A&M (CoC), Baylor, SMU
other possible choices
Duke = Methodist / Quakers
Miami = NS
Wake Forrest = Baptist
Tulane = NS
Rice = NS
if endowment matters!
Vandy
Nortwestern
Stanford
USC
LikeLike
More realistic
Army
Navy
Air Force
Rice
SMU
TCU
Tulane
Tulsa
Nice, neat eight team conference of similar sized schools.
LikeLike
loki,
I was looking at 12, that could go to 16
the east adds duke and miami
the west adds tulane and rice
too lazy to do it right now, but think of how the endowments stack up with those 16 in the same conference (you should know me well enough to know I am not gonna forget rice) 🙂
LikeLike
BTW, I’d say conference-burned but fan favorite Boise may actually be closer to the ND storyline.
LikeLike
As in somewhat outcast that many of the big boys refuse to play but willing to play anyone anywhere and getting the story victories to win a national following.
LikeLike
15 days
LikeLike
Also, there was a bit of joking on the previous thread about this being too coincidental with recent events at Texas and ND, but what I think you can take to the bank is that Austin will be watching Provo very closely over the next three to four years to see if modern-day independence works, especially with one’s own network in place.
The situations aren’t entirely analogous — most glaringly, I highly doubt that Texas would have a WAC-style resting place for its non-revenues and would have to instead opt for total independence — but it’s great to have a trial run in place elsewhere.
LikeLike
Any chance we could get your school to hurry it up? Apparently politics means my school can’t do anything until you make a move.
LikeLike
Hey, I tried my best! Didn’t want to listen to me.
LikeLike
I would consider total independence a non-option for at least basketball. It strikes me as a really difficult slog to make the NCAA Tournament as an independent.
LikeLike
Since the realignment news seems to have sadly taken a break (it’s been what, 3 days without good gossip?), I want to ask you Hopkins Horn:
If UT was to go independent, what would you like their schedule to look like?
LikeLike
Did anyone else get a hearty laugh out of Colorado State’s backtracking on its tweets?
http://www.csurams.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/081810aaa.html
“FORT COLLINS, Colo. — At approximately 11 p.m. MDT last night, and again this morning around 5 a.m. MDT, the Colorado State football Twitter feed was deliberately compromised by an anonymous individual wishing to spread multiple rumors and attribute them to CSU.
The tweets did not originate with anyone employed by the university. The tweets have been removed and the athletic department has changed passwords on all official athletics Twitter accounts.
The Colorado State athletic department apologizes for any inconvenience this may have caused members of the media or fans following the football Twitter account.”
LikeLike
Aug. 18, 2010
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. – The Mountain West Conference has extended an offer of membership to California State University, Fresno and the University of Nevada, Reno.
http://www.themwc.com/genrel/081810aab.html
LikeLike
The Mountain West is trying to nuke the WAC to prevent the BYU independence bid, but that $5M buyout looks like it could prevent those schools from moving…
LikeLike
MWC nukes the WAC. Great. Remaining schools go to the Big West, which gladly takes in BYU’s other teams.
Don’t think BYU’s move can be torpedoed this way.
LikeLike
Sorry, had a brain fart and thought Big West was 1-A.
Still, there’d be enough schools out there for some non-MWC conference unless the MWC brings them all in.
LikeLike
Argh. It’s not 1-A, but who cares about its football classification? It’s D-1 everywhere else.
LikeLike
Yeah I agree.
I think the Utah v. BYU thing is the most important thing.
This is the only way for BYU to be able to rise in stature after Utah’s move to the Pac-10.
BYU will probably just stick with the independence plan regardless of what happens.
Football is driving this bus, and independence is the only way for BYU to get an adult seat at the table if they can make the scheduling work in terms of getting enough BCS programs to do home-home games.
LikeLike
At this point, is it any more than a lateral move?
Are there any numbers-crunchers out there who can look at the criteria laid out for BCS AQ and whether the MWC minus Utah and BYU but with BSU still has a chance in a couple of years?
If so, then I’d consider the move. If not, I’d stay in place and let the remaining members of the MWC (after what would seem to be a likely TCU move east) coming crawling back to the WAC in a fit of poetic justice in a couple of years.
LikeLike
I don’t even think we have to crunch the numbers; it was right on the edge to get a BCS bid with all 4 of Utah/BYU/Boise State/TCU.
And that $5M is probably insurmountable unless the MWC somehow offers to pay it off over a period of years or something.
How can you explain a $5M buyout to join a conference where you’re going to make $1.5M per year; the numbers just don’t work in the short term…
LikeLike
I think it is pretty clear with BYU’s departure that they felt the MWC wasn’t going to get the auto-bid.
LikeLike
at Mountain West Connection they’ve been crunching these numbers right down to how many games New Mexico has to win this year…seriously.
BYU, Utah, TCU and Boise St were a lock for BCS AQ under the numbers that the BCS released.
Boise St, and Utah were/are washes. So, adding Boise St but losing Utah, left the MWC in about the same spot. Which was slightly good and in over the AQ line, but just barely.
HOWEVER…there are many that suspect that the BCS won’t allow another conference at all.
LikeLike
What I was reading was that they really needed to drop New Mexico and SDSU before they made all the qualifications. Otherwise they would have to get an exception (NO CHANCE) on the computer strength calculation.–All assuming, of course, the next 2 years are just like the last two.
Fresno and Nevada didn’t make a significant difference either way on computer strength.
LikeLike
yeah, that was what they had too. SDSU and UNM was killing the average total. BUT, they had it as MWC would just squeak over but as I recall it could come down to a win by SDSU or UNM out of conference.
FSU and UNR I would think would be a small help..but they would be close.
LikeLike
Wow! Full scale war.
Fun scenario. SDSU, UNLV and Boise return to WAC. UNM and TCU join CUSA. The 3 original destroyers of the WAC-WY,CSU and AF end up stranded.
LikeLike
I wonder if these invitations were to keep SDSU and UNLV from bolting. Each gets a key rival.
LikeLike
Fresno Bee reporting Fresno will accept tonight.
LikeLike
Wow, this is stunning. I’d like to see how they play off the $5M buyout clause…
LikeLike
who are they going to pay it to? the WAC only has 6 football schools left with FSU and UNR leaving..7 if you count BYU. It’s no longer a conference
LikeLike
Saw on MWC board. Couldn’t connect with their link but found:
http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/08/18/2045731/fresno-state-to-join-MWC.html#ixzz0x09eTwaX
LikeLike
Taking Fresno St and UN-Reno leaves the WAC with only 6 schools playing football. (Idaho, NMstate, Utah St, Hawaii, San Jose St, and La. Tech)
It would bring the MWC back up to 10 schools even with BYU leaving.
Adding Houston and UTEP or SMU (the only schools from CUSA that matter in football) the MWC would be at the 12 team mark, and the increase in the Texas and Cali markets MWC survive.
LikeLike
Retirement Question?
anybody want to guess what happens in the short term for conference folks like delany, slive, etc Say contracts are not renewed, or as someone mentioned delany retires, any what ifs out there?
LikeLike
BTW, just me or is anyone else annoyed that they keep not showing CFL to do Brett Favre coverage, as NFL follows CFL can they just show the college stuff for the college fans?
LikeLike
Wow.
Relevant to nothing else above, how the might have fallen.
Tennessee is scared to play North Carolina next season.
“Going into the season having two BCS non-conference opponents is problematic when you’re trying to rebuild a team,” [Tennessee AD] Hamilton said. “This is not a change in our scheduling philosophy, however.”
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/football/ncaa/08/17/tennessee.schedule.ap/index.html
LikeLike
Another thing that makes you go hmmm…
That Tennessee article referenced above mentions a new stadium at North Texas. I hadn’t heard of it before.
Looking into it, it’s pretty impressive-looking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_North_Texas_Mean_Green_Stadium
And it will also seat 30K-35K, which would make UNT more attractive to future conference suitors like C-USA.
LikeLike
add
LikeLike
add
LikeLike
hey, i’m the only jj round here!
LikeLike
How ’bout this?
LikeLike
I think the national political angle has always been way overplayed and the BCS and its member conference are not really worried about it. For every Orin Hatch there is 2 Senators from Texas, Florida, Michigan, Ohio, Virginia, NC, SC, the list goes on and on where the current system is a net positive to the schools in that state throw in states like NY, VT, ND, and SD where there is no school that gets looked over so no need for the Senator to waste political capital.
There is also really nothing the Senate can do about it except strip the tax exempt from the schools. Good luck with that when the biggest boosters and alumni donors also tend to be the biggest political donors so again I can’t see where they would get enough votes to do anything.
Moving to BYU this is a huge risk for them. For their alleged brand no one really wants them from any other conference to the bowls. They might travel but that is all they do, they don’t spend money when they arrive. Maybe they can work out a deal with the BCS but I can’t imagine they get what even ND gets they would be lucky to get a deal where they finish in the top 8 they get a half share other wise nothing and if I am the BCS I don’t offer them much more than that and I would put on minimum SOS requirements on that also. While they have a fairly huge TV footprint its in a block of channels that has viewership measured in the thousands if not hundreds.
LikeLike
Do you have anything to back up the claim that BYU fans “don’t spend money when they arrive,” or are you extrapolating a lack of overall spending from the mere fact that LDS members don’t drink?
LikeLike
@Hopkins Horn – Yeah, that doesn’t sound right. LDS members or not, people will spend money on hotels, restaurants and merchandise outside the scope of alcohol. Depending upon the bowl venue, there might not even be booze sold at the game. I was surprised that the Rose Bowl didn’t sell alcohol despite being an off-campus stadium. So, it was a good thing that I had the foresight to get loaded before the Illinois-USC game a couple of years ago. 🙂
LikeLike
Still better than what they used to say about Houston coming to the Cotton Bowl…
LikeLike
Got that right, loki…
LikeLike
I don’t have anything solid except from what I recall either hearing or reading from members of some bowl committee a few years ago in a story dealing with why some teams are bowl favorites and some are bowl pariahs. The general jist that I recall was they don’t spend money around town as much.
LikeLike
You know what they say – when BYU fans go to Vegas, they keep a $20 bill in one pocket and the Ten Commandments in the other, and they don’t break either one while they’re in town.
@Frank – I think the legend/stereotype is that so many Utah (the state, not the school) folks know people in Vegas (a common bowl destination for BYU) that they just stay with friends and family instead of getting a hotel room. And on top of the alcohol, there’s the gambling and some of the more lewd shows that they don’t partake of (supposedly). In other bowl destinations it might not be such an issue.
LikeLike
They came for their livers, but the MWC is not yet dead:
http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/08/18/2045731/fresno-state-to-join-mwc.html#Comments_Container%23ixzz0x0A8kDWJ
Fresno St accepts MWC invite
LikeLike
In response to:
http://www.themwc.com/genrel/081810aab.html
Mountain West Conference Invites Fresno State and Nevada
Aug. 18, 2010
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. – The Mountain West Conference has extended an offer of membership to California State University, Fresno and the University of Nevada, Reno.
MWC Commissioner Craig Thompson is currently traveling and unavailable for comment.
LikeLike
And this out of Nevada (doesn’t mean anything but I wanted to put it here):
“As for Nevada, president Milt Glick said this: “We are honored to have received the invitation to join the Mountain West Conference. We are seriously considering the invitation, and do so with the best interests of our athletics program, University, community and Wolf Pack fans as our priority.””
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogs/byusports/50133915-65/wac-mwc-fresno-byu.html.csp
I think they’re going to go; now BYU has to see if it really wants to go through this independence bid.
LikeLike
now BYU has to see if it really wants to go through this independence bid.
IOW, (non-fb) to WAC off?
LikeLike
IOW, (non-fb) BYU to WAC off?
(Blew the joke on a damn lack of a preview)
LikeLike
As long as the WAC is a workable place for the non-revenue sports, I can’t see BYU turning back. They seem to have been preparing for this possibility for several years.
Now the MWC needs to take enough schools from the WAC to destabilize it. BYU wouldn’t abandon the rest of its athletic program to a third-tier conference. Adding Fresno State and Nevada might not be stand alone benefits, but if it forces BYU into the fold it might be worth it.
It’s basically the ND-Big Ten-Big East conspiracy theory playing out.
LikeLike
@M – If BYU has convinced itself that it should be a football independent but the WAC is going to die, maybe it should take its non-football sports to the WCC. That’s actually a better basketball conference than the current WAC. Gonzaga vs. BYU sounds pretty good to me.
LikeLike
Add
LikeLike
If both Fresno St and Nevada accept offer – that puts the WAC at 7 teams right? Doesn’t it take 8 to keep a conference alive?
If so, that would kill BYU’s landing spot for its non football sports.
LikeLike
6 in football..and 7 with BYU in the others.
It would also mean no conference for Fresno St and UN-R to pay the $5mil exit fee to.
LikeLike
Thanks – I had already forgot about Boise St….
LikeLike
True – that would be a BYU worst nightmare too I would think. The MWC adds two mediocore schools (all but killing BCS dreams) and kills the soft landing for their non football sports in the process…..forcing them to withhold independence.
Though I guess they can just go find a Sunbelt-like Conference maybe to take their non football maybe.
LikeLike
Wait – I already forgot about Boise St moving as well. That would only leave 6 in the WAC – requiring them to get 2 more teams from somewhere to stay viable – right (someone correct me if wrong)?
That would all but kill BYU basketball fans in a weakened WAC conference like that.
LikeLike
The WAC has options. This article lays some out:
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2010/06/17/wac-football-options-for-replacing-boise-state/
Now my posting the link to UNT’s new stadium makes more sense, even to myself.
This might resemble the last realignment scramble, in which half a confernce would move up, and the remaining half would poach the better half of the conference below in the pecking order.
BYU’s plans for football independence won’t be curtailed by their basketball team having to play in a conference with UNT and Fullerton instead of Fresno State and Nevada.
LikeLike
Hop – since the WAC already has a foot-hold in Louisiana with LA Tech, they could steal the U-LA-Loser twins (Lafayette & Monroe) from the Sunbelt.
LikeLike
That would certainly be an option as well.
Also: UT-San Antonio is starting up a new program, with Larry Coker as coach. First season is next year, and the plan is to be 1-A by 2014.
Might be too late for the present realignment madness, but they’ll probably be an attractive programs for the likes of the Sun Belt and WAC pretty quickly.
LikeLike
UTSA and Texas State have been discussed endlessly on the CUSA boards. The consensus is always that they would end up in Sun Belt as a first choice with the WAC as a backup.
LikeLike
After looking at what’s left of the WAC – Hawaii, Idaho, NM St., San Jose St., Utah St., and LA Tech, I don’t think anyone’s leaving the Sunbelt to go to the WACk’ed.
I’m thinking SMU and Houston or Hawaii go to the MWC to get to 12 teams and a CCG.
LA Tech leaves the WACk’ed to go to CUSA, and either Troy or UNT from the Sunbelt bolt to CUSA.
Sunbelt then picks up Hawaii (sunny), San Jose State (sunny), NM State (sunny), and Idaho (Sun Valley) to form a 12 team national conference that stretches from Miami to Honolulu.
Utah St. can drop back down to 1-AA.
LikeLike
I’m surprised the WAC didn’t become the safety raft considering the 5 million buy-out. I would have thought BSU, SJS, and TCU would see the WAC as a good landing place. Nevada, Fresno State are as good as buddies and CSU.
Perhaps Fresno State thinks there is some way around the buyout.
LikeLike
Ah, UNR didn’t sign the buy-out.
The Reno Gazette Journal just reported that Nevada did not sign the $5 million buyout clause that WAC commissioner Karl Benson asked it to sign last week.
LikeLike
Nevada accepts the MWC offer.
http://www.silverandbluesports.com/2010/08/18/to-the-mountain-west-for-nevada/
LikeLike
Fresno State putting together their news conference for tonight to also accept
http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/08/18/2045731/fresno-state-to-join-mwc.html#Comments_Container%23ixzz0x0A8kDWJ#ixzz0x0PyFHN3
LikeLike
Goodbye WAC.
The writing’s on the wall for BYU and I get this move, but Fresno, Nevada and Boise make the MW a pretty decent conference. I think BYU might reconsider. They need a move to one of the big boy leagues.
I think someone made the point that TCU and BYU would make a nice outpost for the BEast. I can see that. But how does this duo not make sense for the B12?
LikeLike
Agree – the re-made MWC looks decent.
LikeLike
TCU brings no market for the Big 12. UT, A&M, and TTech each bring bigger ratings in the Dallas area.
No Texas school will get added to the conference unless one of those schools leave.
If there was a good school to pair it with, BYU would probably get into the Big 12. There just isn’t a school that will add a big enough market to justify the addition.
LikeLike
It all depends on the B10+? and if they stop at 12. If 12 becomes the conference standard than BYU makes a lot of sense and Louisville could round it out. Lou, granted isn’t exciting, but decent and a good BBall addition.
Plus that would give the conference map a solid core with an extension to the west and one to the east. Shaped like a Longhorn…
LikeLike
In the short-term, Louisville would be the best option.
In the long term, a Nevada school might be best. When we were looking over population projections for the next few decades, Nevada always stood out as a state that will be able support a big conference school in the future, especially if professional leagues stay away.
The problem would be getting the population to rally around just one of the schools, as it loses its population advantage if you have to divide the fans between 2 schools.
LikeLike
Nevada is such a transient state – none of the teams garner much respect for long. Even in Reno, most people are USC or Cal fans. Tark had a good run at UNLV and that was as close as any team came to capturing the hearts of NV fans.
LikeLike
Not sure Louisville would jump to the Big12-ish. Memphis would, however. Don’t think Provo is much more of an outlier than Boulder.
LikeLike
TCU is a redundant market with a small fanbase, and BYU is too much of a geographic outlier now that CU is out of the conference.
If you held a gun to my head and asked me to pick the best available pair for a mandatory move to 12, I think those are the two I’d pick, but staying at 10 keeps the conference stronger, on the aggregate, than adding those two schools, or any two schools.
I think we’ve all gotten too hung up on 12 being the magic number for conferences because of the CCG when a number less than 12 might be optimal because of very real geographic considerations.
LikeLike
I agree.
After all, the Big Ten stayed at 11 for almost 20 years, even though that is a completely nonsensical number from the point of view of an 8 game conference schedule and virtually every other consideration whether it’s basketball or football scheduling (rivalry week, etc.).
Unless BYU and TCU accept being junior members in the Big 12, there’s no reason to invite them.
The Big 12 has to worry much more about whether it can afford to pay Texas/A&M/OU the $20M+ that they want to make (especially A&M)…
LikeLike
Considerable discussion in the MWC news conference about how they couldn’t get coverage on the cable channels in DFW.
LikeLike
Maybe goodbye Sun Belt.
Interesting that they are moving so quickly with BYU possibly leaving. MWC-BYU vs. WAC + Boise looks pretty equal in football and WAC looks stronger otherwise. Can’t believe they wouldn’t talk to Boise first. Maybe all 3 want to leave SJSU and Idaho behind.
LikeLike
WAC is too far and not a step up to attract many Sun Belt teams. I think they’re safe from the mayhem on the west coast. If anything I can see Louisiana Tech going the other way.
LikeLike
Don’t you think the WAC would be attractive for UNT, especially with the new stadium coming online next fall?
LikeLike
The new MW, with BYU, blows the crap out of all the other mid-majors, that’s faux real!
LikeLike
Are we certain BYU is gone? BYU wanted more money and more quality schools in the MWC. With Fresno (good) and Nevada (nothing) if they added a potential top 25 school like UHou and Fox redid the MWC channel agreement could BYU stay put?
I don’t expect it, but…
LikeLike
Guys, I just do not understand your fascination with UH and TCU. Had these schools been able to put any fannies in the seats of their stadiums or draw any TV ratings on their own, there would be no Big Twelve. But unless TCU, SMU, Rice, or UH played Texas or Texas A&M, there was no money funneled to the other schools. Leopards have still not changed their spot. UH biggest crowd last year was for Texas Tech for goodness sakes and then less than 30,000, which is about the capacity of their stadium. They are a good fit in the USA.
LikeLike
Try telling that to Cougar fans. Man there is a lot delusion there.
LikeLike
One of the factors in leaving was to try to improve season ticket sales. It was a motivator to alumni in DFW and Houston who otherwise could get good seats to see their team play TCU/SMU/Rice or UH and not drive all the way to Austin or College Station.
MWC is pretty delusional too. UH is a good match for them. But I think they understand their budget limitations and its not worth the travel costs.
LikeLike
But who would the BEast or MWC get that is better? Beast is considering their own TV network, Texas is the 2nd largest state with 2 top 10 markets and TCU and UHou are in each. Could (not certain) make a big difference on such a network’s viability.
That said, I don’t expect the BEast to do anything until after the B10+? takes their bite out of ’em. Too many cats to herd for the Big Least to make a proactive decision. Trouble is, the B10+? may lead to a deep raid by the ACC and SEC.
Glad I’m not a BEast chancellor or commish.
LikeLike
hmm… yes and no. Honestly, I think the BigEast really sees itself as a BBall conference. As a BBall conference, the Big East is safe.
I agree that Big East will wait and see what the Big10 and/or ACC do. At 16 schools, it becomes cumbersome to add more. Plus adding a football school that does not add a good BBall team is a problem (viz East Carolina). And adding a good Bball school with a meh football team (Memphis) is also a problem.
So, I think many reasons that Big East will stay put for now.
LikeLike
Speculation a couple hours ago on the MWC board, while obviously self-serving, was that it was a power play to get a new deal.
LikeLike
With Fresno State joining and Nevada joining without even signing that $5M buyout clause, I tend to agree that this may be a way for BYU to extricate themselves from the mtn. and the TV deals.
If BYU can cut itself out of the media deals and get itself a deal like Texas has in the Big 12, then it is likely to stay in my mind.
LikeLike
To be clear, I don’t mean totally remove themselves, I mean to see if they can get themselves a Bevo-TV kind of setup for BYU-TV in the MWC.
LikeLike
One school that I think would be decent but the problem is of course travel is Hawaii. They get enough fans in the seats to justify being considered, but travel budgets would probably go up dramatically for everyone if they’re added…
I think the MWC should aim for 12 and see if a CCG can make their TV package better…
LikeLike
Or wait for the Big XII to fall apart and see what’s available.
LikeLike
That’s true; at the very least they’d be able to grab Iowa State probably if Kansas/KState/Missouri go off to the Big East…
LikeLike
OTOH, if they get to 12 sooner rather than later, maybe the money will be better to add potential Big XII refugees and go beyond 12 teams.
FWIW, I think KSU would be a good fit in the MWC, if it ever comes to that.
LikeLike
and, to be completely mercenary about it, some of the BXII north teams might be good even if no expansion beyond 12: that is, dump the worst teams in the MWC and upgrade to Iowa State and/or the two Kansases…
There are precedents for dropping the worst performing schools in your conference.
LikeLike
If BYU does in fact go independent despite Fresno St and Nevada going to MWC, I’d love to see a BYU/ND rivalry begin. Too bad “The Holy War” is taken for a rivalry name b/c it’d be perfect.
LikeLike
Resume, you mean. They use to play every year.
LikeLike
Yes my bad. Proofreading would’ve been a good idea 😛
LikeLike
Rumors out the wazoo. Something up with UHou since at least yesterday, SMU also buzzing. ESPN scheming. John has a long mustache.
LikeLike
Craziest rumor: ESPN attempting to broker new conference with the new MWC as one division and the CUSA ‘All Stars’ as the other, complete with TV deal.
LikeLike
what? that’s actually a good idea.
LikeLike
That would be interesting. One of the issues the MWC had when setting up their own network, was that ESPN was offering crappy money…AND wanted to many Wed, Thurs, Fri. night games
My cat has no Whiskers
LikeLike
Whoa. And I thought the WAC/Sun Belt merger rumor was a stretch.
LikeLike
if you get a link or even a source, I’d love to know
LikeLike
Nothing on my CUSA board about SMU or UH. My hovercraft is full of eels.
LikeLike
hmm… which would also mean your hovercraft is full of water (or maybe I don’t understand what a hovercraft is?)
LikeLike
I guess we could know in about 45 minutes if some of this is true.
“Fresno State officials have scheduled a news conference for 7:30 tonight to announce the school’s expected move to the Mountain West Conference.
The Reno Gazette-Journal is reporting that Nevada also will accept the offer to join the MWC and that the university did not sign a reported $5 million buyout clause to get out of the Western Athletic Conference. The Reno newspaper also said that Nevada would hold its news conference at 7:30 p.m.”
LikeLike
This MWC/WAC situation is just screaming for a relegation/promotion solution.
LikeLike
I’ve been thinking that for a few years now! It could have been a radical and interesting way for non-AQ teams to force their way into the BCS picture.
LikeLike
Would it be fair for me to say that (1) pretty much every American sports fan who is knowledgeable about promotion/relegation loves the concept and wishes we had it in some form for our sports and leagues; and (2) there’s no chance in hell we’ll ever see it in the States? I mean, if even the MLS can get off the ground without it…
LikeLike
1) Yes,
and
2) No shot.
LikeLike
1) Promotion/relegation looks good on paper, but it doesn’t work well in practice. If you follow the Premier League, it’s always the same teams rotating in and out. They would be better off cutting it down to maybe 16 clubs and telling the rest to shove off.
Basically the money difference between the upper leagues is too great for anyone who just got promoted to stay remotely competitive.
LikeLike
Eggs.
LikeLike
Here’s a thought:
ESPN and the bowls are rumored to have stepped in with a notable offer to TX to keep the B12 and in order to stop the super conference dominoes from tumbling. The B10+? just announced they will be renegotiating with ESPN for the addition of NE and expect a hefty increase. Could that be the bowls and ESPN trying to head off their going to 16?
Along that line, could ESPN and the bowls attempt to meddle in the MWC reorganization, perhaps offering a TV contract and BCS AQ status? Could a similar meddling with the BEast take place, squashing a BEast channel? Shaking out the weaklings to create 7×12 committed to continuing the BCS and fairly safe from congressional inquiry?
Just brainstorming.
LikeLike
To clarify, is ESPN pushing the MWC to get to 12 by adding top-25 potential teams such as Fresno and UHou? ESPN has given UHou and their QB lots of promo the last year.
LikeLike
MWC goes to the new 5th BCS bowl, the JerryBowl.
LikeLike
actually that could be the alternative to the 4 x 16. ESPN owns (biggest money donors)most of the bowl games..they have a vested interest in keeping the current system up and running.
A 4 x 16 with playoffs..and ESPN could be left out or in a bidding war where one wins, and the rest looses.
LikeLike
And Bowl Week does massive ratings, especially against the feeble competition the broadcast networks put out from Dec. 25 to 31.
LikeLike
I don’t think this stops any conference from going to 16, but it does give ESPN/ABC programming to fall back on if the national scene changes.
Right now ESPN has to program sports for ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, ESPN3, and ESPNClassic. Any one of those networks always could use college games (and not just football).
However, in the next 5 years:
1) The Big 10, whether or not it expands, could sell it’s big games to Fox or NBC and/or move more coverage to the BTN or to other cable networks. And that’s even if it doesn’t expand and add more important schools.
2) The Pac 10 could basically do the same thing as the Big 10, though it doesn’t have nearly as much programming on the ABC/ESPN family to start with.
3) The SEC could expand (with a financial assist from CBS), removing some national names from ABC on Saturdays. It could then cancel its ESPN package in order to form an SEC network or to sell its games to CBS buddies TBS and TNT.
4)BYU and maybe some other schools (read: UT) could go independent and sell their game rights.
5)ACC, Big 12, and Big East programming on ABC/ESPN could be hurt by defections to those other 3 conferences. Maybe some of these conferences aren’t around in 5 years.
Making the MWC a bigger conference doesn’t prevent any of the above from happening. However, getting the rights to an enlarged MWC does seem like an insurance policy to have in case it loses some of the programming it currently has.
LikeLike
Its official, Nevada accepts, and says Fresno also accepted.
LikeLike
CBS College channel is showing it.
LikeLike
Nevada says they will be negotiating with the WAC over the exit fee. Says $5 mil is the high end of the negotiating range, but whatever is decided they will come out ahead financially in the 5+ year time range.
LikeLike
Did they mention anything about whether they signed off on the exit fee?
There was something about them not signing it earlier…
LikeLike
Inference was yes, they signed an agreement.
LikeLike
More from the NV news conference: 2011 or 2012 is not decided yet. Not yet known what BYU will do.
Serious discussions began yesterday. (Though earlier said that consideration began months ago with UNLV pushing NV’s membership.)
Boise St did pay the WAC an exit fee, but it was smaller than whatever NV will pay.
LikeLike
I’m just stunned how fast this has happened. Literally 24 hours ago nothing was happening and now I’m watching the “We’re so happy to leave conference X to be in conference Y”.
LikeLike
Agreed. This is so fast it makes you wonder, what could the offer have been that makes you almost immediately drop affiliation with one conference at a significant cost (millions of dollars you don’t presently have) and run to affiliation with another conference? Makes the rumor above regarding significant TV money in play seem plausable.
LikeLike
I would guess that all WAC schools must know already that affiliation with the MWC, even minus BYU, is monetarily and psychologically worthwhile, so when the invite comes, they can jump immediately without looking.
LikeLike
Comments on press conference:
Nevada has mentioned travel costs several times as reason for moving, specifically Hawaii and Louisiana Tech. I wonder how much of that is real and how much is posturing.
Boise State will not get tv money this year, but no additional exit fee. Nevada will pay some sort of exit fee.
Reporter tried to trick speaker into admitting that BYU was gone. Speaker directly denied it.
Nevada is talking up scheduling benefits of conference.
LikeLike
If Boise, NV and Fresno stick together, those Hawaii and LT flights are offset by Moscow, Boise, Fresno, San Jose and Reno bus rides with Logan maybe also. Laramie, Ft. Collins, Colorado Springs, Albuquerque, Ft. Worth aren’t exactly next door. SDSU isn’t either for that matter.
LikeLike
Fort Collins is 60 miles from Denver, so is Colorado Springs. It’s not the two hour drive through the middle of nowhere that a trip to Moscow, Idaho is after you fly into Spokane. Fort Worth is close enough to DFW to be in the name. Laramie is a pain, but that’s the only one. United, Delta, Continental, Southwest, American and US Air all fly into Albequerque.
LA Tech is in Ruston. You’re talking about flying into New Orleans and driving 300 miles or going to Shreveport’s regional airport. It’s 2500 miles each way to go to Hawaii. I’m going to say travel costs are a legitimate issue.
LikeLike
Wow, you’ve flunked geography and Travelocity.
La Tech’s stadium is 35 miles from Monroe, LA’s airport, which has direct commercial flights to Memphis, DFW, and Houston hubs. Shreveport is 70 miles, all freeway.
If you must have more choices, Alexandria, LA is 100 miles, Jackson, MS 160, Baton Rouge 210, and even DFW Airport is 265 miles, closer than New Orleans and all freeway.
But don’t most schools fly charter? Ruston’s airport has a 5000′ runway which can handle jets.
LikeLike
It’s still easier for SDSU, Fresno, UNLV, and Nevada to get to virtually anywhere else than it is to get to LA Tech and Hawaii. Is it easier to get to Albequerque or Las Cruces?
Charter flights still use gas and have flight time. Cutting off the trips to Hawaii alone are probably worth the move.
Four of the six remaining WAC schools are a chore to travel to. Seven of the eight MWC schools are within 60 miles of cities with major airports. If you’re going to tell me that it’s easier to travel within the WAC, I suggest you double check the geography yourself.
When Nevada repeatedly cites travel costs as reason for wanting to move, it’s real, not posturing.
LikeLike
I was only replying to this:
LA Tech is in Ruston. You’re talking about flying into New Orleans and driving 300 miles or going to Shreveport’s regional airport.
LikeLike
TCU coach cautions BYU…
“All I can tell you is this: Just wait and see in the next two weeks before you make any judgments and see what happens in the national landscape,” Patterson said. “Things that I know that maybe you don’t know. That’s all I’m going to tell you.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/ncf/news/story?id=5475303
LikeLike
What would TCU’s Patterson know that BYU wouldn’t involving their conference? Though Patterson could be just blowing smoke, it seems to hit at something outside the MWC. Intriguing….
LikeLike
Yeah, it’s an odd comment. Even if TCU was, just guessing, BE bound, it wouldn’t really affect BYU. The only thing that would really impact BYU would be more WAC defections but he doesn’t really sound like he’s referencing that.
LikeLike
Very odd comment – maybe I’m just looking at the whole hierarchy of the MWC and wondering “what would a TCU football coach know that the BYU/LDS Church doesn’t – as it pertains to the MWC?”
LikeLike
I did not focus on the MWC. I zeroed in on the “national landscape” verbiage.
LikeLike
@loki:
It’s those damn Iluminati again, back to mess around with our realignment fun.
LikeLike
@Hopkins – The Illuminati are a wholly owned subsidiary of the Bilderbergers, which is, as we all know, headed by DeLoss Dodds.
LikeLike
@ Loki….Ok, as it pertains to the Nat’l landscape – that means it would have to involve TCU if Patterson is privy right? If it involves TCU – then I presume that it would be some sort of move, so why would TCU then care what BYU is thinking of doing? Like you said…very odd comment to make.
Even if it was something outlandish like…..aTm saying screw the UTen and jumps to the SEC with team x, then the now UT9 goes after TCU and would like to add BYU as well – BYU simply moves from Independent to the new UTen or UTwelve in a matter of moments.
Just not sure what he is alluding to.
LikeLike
Maybe Rutgers to B10? TCU might know because they had discussions with BE.
LikeLike
That’s actually a good thought bullet.
Rutgers to the Big Ten is going to be #13 in my mind no matter how the rest of everything shakes down.
And right now we’re at the window of when the Big Ten was supposed to make decisions under the original timeline…
LikeLike
Rutgers to the Big 10 wouldn’t happen out of the blue like that, imo.
LikeLike
RU to the Big 10 cold happen any moment JD wants it to. I think the Big 10 presidents are already sold on RU, given its research capabilities.
LikeLike
The Presidents would be fine with the academic side; it’s the athletic side that would concern them. The Big10 is still an athletic conference first, and I doubt they’re eager to add a school if it isn’t going to be in the top half of the Big10 athletically.
LikeLike
On the athletic side, RU’s importance is that it would bring the Big 10’s marquee programs — PSU, UM, tOSU and UNL — to the NY metro area on a regular basis. And NJ is prime recruiting turf for lots of sports, turf that will be inviting for the entire league.
LikeLike
The Big Ten won’t invite Rutgers until it has a suitable expansion partner for it, for the simple reason that a 13-member conference is messy. I still sense Maryland is the Big Ten’s preferred partner with Rutgers, as it’s a comparable academic (and better athletic) institution that would complement Rutgers along the northeast corridor, and Delany may wait until the spring of 2011, at which time the new College Park president will be settled in and the governor (either O’Malley or Ehrlich) is safely in office (UMd officials didn’t want Big Ten membership to somehow become a political football in this fall’s campaign).
LikeLike
The most likely scenario might be a bigger bowl deal for the MWC, along with a bit of extra cash for a conference championship game.
The only other thing that comes to mind is the slight chance that a Big 12 team or 3 will preemptively agree to move to the MWC conference in order to protect itself from UT’s future move.
I can’t think of anything else that would entice BYU to stay. If the other BCS conferences stayed the same, the best school for a 12th spot in the MWC would probably be Houston.
If BYU stayed, this would be the conference:
San Diego State
Fresno State
UNLV
Nevada
Boise
BYU
Wyoming
Colorado State
Air Force
New Mexico
TCU
Houston
While a BYU/TCU conference championship match would get some national attention, I think BYU could probably get a better schedule as an independent. Especially since most of these schools would schedule them as a non-conference game.
LikeLike
I’m racking my brain for something that TCU might know that BYU wouldn’t and would also be something that would convince BYU to stay. The only logical conclusion I can come up with is that it’s got to originate outside of the conference, likely in the Big 12. If it was in the Mountain West, BYU would know about it. TCU could conceivably get wind of events in the Big 12 though, given that there is likely communication among Texas schools.
Do I actually believe that? Not a chance, but it’s the only thing that I get to that would make the comment make sense and be accurate.
LikeLike
The only thing I can think of is that A&M would bolt to the SEC if it thinks it’s not going to get the $ that it wants…
Everyone except Texas A&M looks to be in a holding pattern…
LikeLike
@zeek:
But why/how would Gary Patterson know that, but BYU wouldn’t?
LikeLike
Your guess is as good as mine.
I can’t think of anything that the coach of TCU would be privy to that would not be available to BYU…
It just seems as if he’s saying something big is going down nationally, but we can only really guess that he’d know of goings on in the state of Texas which BYU wouldn’t have knowledge of…
Still it sounds more like he’s just sounding foreboding without really knowing anything. Either way, within 2 weeks we’ll know whether he’s on to something or full of hot air…
LikeLike
Being a TCU alum, I’ve listened to Patterson quite a bit over the years, and while he isn’t lying, he definitely gets excited about different things than most Internet message board posters. And when he said “I may know things you don’t,” I think he was talking to the assembled reporters, not BYU.
As for things Patterson knows that BYU doesn’t – how about running the Wildcat? That sure came as a shock to them.
LikeLike
More out of Gary Patterson…
http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/24838/video-tcus-gary-patterson
Some amusing tidbits:
“What do you think of the news out of BYU?”
“What news is it?”
-“Illinois never went to a BCS game with 3 losses”
Yes they did, 2007 Rose Bowl
-“The only school to go to a BCS game with 3 losses is Florida”
Well other than the Illinois part he’s right, assuming Florida and Florida State are the same school. Of course, Illinois got an at-large bid while FSU won their conference, but whatever.
“If you think being an independent is an easier way to get to a national championship game, you’re fooling yourself”
Domers, take note.
This just reinforces the “Don’t ask coaches questions about this sort of thing. They don’t know what’s going on”.
LikeLike
@M – Patterson and Rex Ryan need to get a TV show together.
LikeLike
I think Patterson was trying to say that you can’t lose two games and reach the BCS TITLE game – but even in that case he’s mistaken, because it was LSU that accomplished the feat, not Florida.
Also amusing:
“The Illini.”
“Who?”
You’d think he’d be aware of Illinois, since they did hire away his OC a couple of years ago (how’s that working out, by the way?).
And I can’t blame him for confusing the Big 12 and Big Ten. It is tricky these days.
LikeLike
That’s the same 3-loss SEC Champ LSU Tiger team that destroyed a 1-loss Illinois Big Ten Champ in the Sugar Bowl that year.
Apologies to FtT for bringing that up, but I just couldn’t help myself.
LikeLike
Wow, the SEC managed to win another bowl game played at home.
LikeLike
Greg – why doesn’t the Big Ten champ quit playing in the Rose Bowl and play in the Little Caesar’s Pizza Bowl if that’s the way you all feel?
LikeLike
“I think Patterson was trying to say that you can’t lose two games and reach the BCS TITLE game – but even in that case he’s mistaken, because it was LSU that accomplished the feat, not Florida.”
There are several true statements only a few words different than what he said. Your guess is as good as mine as to which he was intending.
LikeLike
Avoiding travel to Hawaii and La Tech was a factor.
Wow, Mt West Conference TV set is too busy, hard on the eyes. Circa-1981, nice visible creases in the backdrop.
Fresno St conference now on. Note to idiot FSU cameraman: Not wise to do extreme closeups on an old man. Especially a jittery one. Nose hairs are not attractive.
Blah, blah, blah, they didn’t say anything new (though I may have dozed off.)
LikeLike
So, without BYU and Utah, any chance that national carriers like DirecTV might consider dumping The Mountain, or at least renegotiate for even smaller carriage fees than they already pay?
LikeLike
They probably have the option to do that.
LikeLike
Note to idiot MWChannel producers: don’t do closeups when one of your anchors is the elephant man.
LikeLike
Fresno State prez turning press conference into half time speech.
Wants to start in fall of 11, but apparently WAC has deadline in July, so would have to be negotiated.
Has “not heard that they (BYU) will not” be in the conference. “Not privy” to other decisions.
Also mentioned travel cost.
Mentioned Big 12. “When conference members left their conference” they negotiated exit fees and leaving dates. I wasn’t aware that those negotiations were over.
Fresno said they talked quite closely with Nevada, Nevada said the decisions were independent. Not completely contradictory, but certainly different emphasis.
Dodged the “why do you think they happened to ask now” question.
“have you had discussions with BYU leadership?” “I’ve had discussions with lots of people” That’s an actual quote.
Talking up feasibility of 11 schools. Made joke about Big Ten logo.
LikeLike
‘Mentioned Big 12. “When conference members left their conference” they negotiated exit fees and leaving dates.’
Sweet. Now other conferences can blame Nebraska for screwing everything up.
LikeLike
I was way ahead of you on that one. 🙂
LikeLike
I was going to blame this one on Texas. Had Texas and the Big 12 South (minus Baylor) gone to the Pac-10, Utah would still be sitting in the Mountain West.
LikeLike
See, there’s something in it for all of us!
LikeLike
MWC commish teleconference temporarily drowned out by a heavy-breathing walrus, er, reporter from WY.
Commish says BYU still a member (don’t read anything into that.)
Conf champ game has not been discussed. Conf configuration discussed at most conf meetings. Some schools want 12 members, others are against. (Fits with rumor that UHou is a candidate but one school is creating resistance.)
Entrance fee being discussed, as is paying assistance for exit fees.
“I don’t know BYU’s intentions. They have been on conference calls with our commissioners for the last several days.”
LikeLike
You know what’s nice about a day like this? All the gang’s back together again!
LikeLike
@Hopkins Horn – This definitely was a nice surprise today! I had no clue this was coming down the pike and it’s a chance to watch a pretty fascinating realignment story unfold from afar (and being right in the middle of it with the Big Ten/Texas/ND).
LikeLike
We need some sort of Realignment Emergency Notification System on a go-forward basis.
LikeLike
I already have a Realignment Emergency Notification System. It’s this blog crapping in my inbox.
LikeLike
Seriously, a crazy, crazy day – like the good ole days of a couple months back
LikeLike
No deadline for BYU from the MWC.
Denver chick reporter sounds drunk.
Met in Philly today with Comcast and CBS.
Claims this wasn’t a defensive move to weaken the WAC and keep BYU. Says adding FSU and NV helps their AQ case.
Waiting to see what else will occur nationally.
LikeLike
Craig Thompson, MWC commissioner
Sounds very tired. He’s added more in 24 hours than any other conference has in 6 months though.
“BYU is a member of the MWC. They participated in several conference calls over the last 48 hours.”
-Yes, but will they continue to be a member over the next 24?
“As we’re speaking at 920, the MWC is an 11 team league… er, soon to be 11 team”
Commish doesn’t seem interested in getting to 12. Says some people in conference do want to get to 12. “It may happen, it may not happen”.
Andy Katz “what about BYU?”
“I don’t know BYU’s intentions
“why now?”
Some garbage about television markets and additional coverage. Apparently Nevada doubled in size in the last 3 months.
The commissioner keeps trying to say that these additions are unrelated to BYU. He’s trying to say that television discussions suddenly made it necessary to kill the WAC.
“Would you have accepted one of them (Fresno, Nevada) without the other?”
-“hypothetical, I can’t answer”
“I don’t know what BYU’s intentions were or are, we simply wanted to make conference better”
Reporters keep asking “What is happening with BYU?” in different ways. Commish is not biting.
“What do you say to BYU to convince them to stay?”
“Same as the University of Utah”-most ominous response ever
He says they won’t make concessions to BYU.
LikeLike
Yes, not related to BYU. So they discuss it with Fresno & NV on Tuesday, meet Comcast on Wednesday (arriving at 2am), make the formal invitation on Wednesday, tell them to make a quick decision, which they do on Wednesday, all without any detailed discussion of admission fees. Fresno and Nevada don’t know how much it will cost them to leave, when they will leave and how much it will cost to enter.
BYU obviously had nothing to do with this. I must say though, Thompson says that very convincingly. He’s a better actor than a lot of professional actors.
Also would not comment on whether one of the two would have been admitted without the other. It was a conditional offer on both accepting.
Discussion of their inability to use the tremendous drawing power of TCU to get on cable in DFW.
LikeLike
And the Big East Providence mafia, with a natural pair of schools out there like TCU and Houston, will instead divide their time tomorrow morning between discussions on:
A) whether Villanova, who drew about 8000 people a game for a national championship FCS team, can move up to the FBS
B) Which italian restaurant will get their Thursday lunch order.
LikeLike
To riff on the possibility of Big East expansion for a moment, if we assume that (1) the Big East wanted to expand by two and (2) the Big East’s top target was TCU, would Houston or Memphis be a better second target?
LikeLike
Houston has a football team. Memphis, not so much…
LikeLike
To me, you would always want to pair schools to make better trips for the non-football sports, so Houston.
LikeLike
East Carolina and TCU might be the strongest available, if TCU is open.
LikeLike
Granted ECU would be stronger football-wise than either UH or Memphis, but I was looking at it from the traveling pair methodology you suggested above.
(Also, would basketball perhaps matter more to the Big East than to the other conferences?)
LikeLike
Why wouldn’t they go after UCF?
LikeLike
To expound on UCF, they would work well with USF in terms of getting each team down to Florida at least once per season, and UCF has the same kind of upside in terms of going for 50,000+ attendance, etc.
LikeLike
@zeek
Does it really add much to grab the fifth team in a state?
LikeLike
One advantage of having both is that a legitimate rivalry could help bring attention to both. If people actually care about the result when the two play, even as a secondary concern at first, it could help both schools gain legitimacy. I don’t know if that’s a big enough factor to invite them, but it’s at least an argument.
LikeLike
I would argue that UCF has as much upside as USF did when it got added to the Big East and hit an upward trajectory.
The ingredients are all there; huge enrollment etc. Fan attendance has been getting there.
And aren’t you discussing doing the same thing in Texas with Houston? Between Houston or UCF; UCF is easily a better fit for the Big East in my mind. Especially if you grab TCU to go with it.
LikeLike
As a fan of a Big East team, I agree that the best of the BE’s admittedly limited options now is to try and get:
-The pair of TCU and Houston
-UCF to pair with USF
-Memphis (because with Cinn and Lville it would fit the travel better than ECU would).
The problem with that is the recent idea that the Big 12 north teams might become available if the Big 12 blows up.
So, I would try the Texas thing for now and keep the other two spots unfilled for a little while (waiting for KU and KSU).
LikeLike
Houston because of travel. Not just the traveling pair, but because TCU would be all alone.
Memphis actually draws better than either of them with worse teams in fb. I’ve always looked at attendance as a key indicator of desirability. Note that Fresno, Boise and Nevada were #2,#3 and #4 in attendance in WAC (behind Hawaii).
LikeLike
@bullet – Memphis draws better than whom? They only had one home crowd over 20,000 last season, and that was Ole Miss. Going back to 2007, an 8-5 bowl season, their best crowd (again, outside of Ole Miss) was 27,000. Meanwhile, TCU averaged 38,000 without any help from giant BCS conference state schools and has been handily topping Memphis’ attendance figures for years now.
LikeLike
Accidently posted the numbers at the bottom instead of here. TCU has only outdrawn Memphis the last 3 years. Memphis was higher the 5 years before that. And Memphis has a higher average since SWC breakup.
LikeLike
“Other conf have made concessions to keep schools, we have not done that for BYU.”
“We want our schools to enter as strong as possible” (suggesting that entry fees won’t be steep.)
“This helps our TV position.”
“Rumor of BYU press conference was totally false.”
Confirmed that NV and FSU were told to give them a decision quickly. Somewhat cornered into admitting that BYU prompted the quick action (without explicitly saying so.
LikeLike
ESPN radio reporter goes AWOL in his question slot.
Catman of the Americas (now with ESPN Dallas?) needles commish on why MWChannel still not in DFW market.
Dang, I may have missed some good TV info.
Dodged question on if BYU could stay in the MWC for everything but football.
“Did the TV networks encourage you to expand?” – “They didn’t discourage us.”
Unanimous vote to bring in NV and FSU.
“Did you talk to WAC commish Karl Benson to let him know this was coming?” – “No. Well, we had email exchanges but I didn’t speak by phone.”
LikeLike
“BYU was fully participating” in adding these two schools.
Re Hawaii-“been part of conversations in the past”
“Was there a deadline for Fresno State/Nevada for today?” “I think that’s fair… conversations started Monday”
I guess I’m still use to major conference timelines. The Big Ten has been looking at expansion for 20 years.
“It doesn’t have to be a Comcast market but it certainly helps”
“We are attractive to television. We have TCU, Boise State, Air Force, Fresno State”-There is no good reason for not listing BYU, unless the Fighting Mormoms are gone.
“Would MWC allow BYU to go independent in football and stay in the conference in other sports?”
“I wouldn’t even venture to guess, hypothetical”
“We’re not going to stand in the way of anyone leaving”
“was Boise State involved?” “involved and had a vote”
“were the tv meetings prescheduled or were they set up recently?” “They were scheduled”
“did tv networks encourage you to expand?” “it didn’t discourage us”
Invitations officially went out today.
“any comments on killing the WAC?” “I’m an employee of the mountain west conference”
commish-“I’ve never been to Fresno”
LikeLike
“It doesn’t have to be a Comcast market but it certainly helps”
Houston is a Comcast market.
LikeLike
I feel for Houston.
LikeLike
That’s why we went U-Verse.
LikeLike
And we went to DirecTV. Unfortunately couldn’t get a clear view of the Southern sky in Atlanta. Stuck with Comcast.
LikeLike
@bullet – That’s a bummer. I switched to DirecTV 6 years ago and never looked back.
LikeLike
Yeah, I had years of tree-blocking Comcast necessity when living in DC. Now that I live in SoCal, where, to the best of my knowledge, there are no trees, I have DirecTV and love it. I’m even not renewing the ESPN College Football Package this season since I discovered last year that a majority of the games featured are also available via the Regional Sports package for pennies on the dollar.
LikeLike
@Hopkins Horn – Have you tried this yet?
http://thelandryhat.com/2010/08/06/free-red-zone-channel-from-directv/
I’m planning on calling tomorrow. My one complaint about DirecTV was only offering the Red Zone Channel in conjunction with the $300 Sunday Ticket package instead of including it in the sports pack like other providers. It looks like DirecTV is giving its long-time customers an option, although you have to do a little dance.
LikeLike
Thanks for the tip! I haven’t had DirecTV for two years yet, so I might not qualify.
I’ve actually never had the NFL Package. One of the advantages of being a Cowboys fan (hey, don’t pelt me with tomatoes, I grew up in Dallas and came by it naturally!) is that we’re on TV anywhere 12-14 times a year.
As a PS (not to drive people away from Frank’s site, naturally), the subset of sports fans interested in the intricacies of realignment might overlap with the subset of sports fans who are interested in the intricacies of where and why NFL games are shown where they are. The link below is to a forum to the fascinating forum for those nuts interested in such info.
http://www.the506.com/yabb/YaBB.pl
(And a PPS to FtT: I thinkI sent you an email offline – let me know if you don’t get it!)
LikeLike
@Hopkins Horn – the506 is great – I post on the message boards there regularly (easily recognizable since I post as Frank the Tank with the same Oscar Gamble avatar). Tons of great discussions there on TV and business issues for all pro and college sports.
I’ll check my email shortly!
LikeLike
At least we have nice trees in the neighborhood. Although, after being in Houston for many years its gets a little claustrophobic, not being able to see the sky (plenty of trees in Houston, just not 200 ft ones).
LikeLike
The WAC throws in the towel…
“The WAC is keeping its options open, too, scouring for schools. Benson said there are five or six candidates from the [b]Football Championship Series[/b] the conference is keeping an eye on.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5276064
LikeLike
At the very least, today guarantees us nibbles of realignment action as the WAC orphans find new homes.
LikeLike
SMU may be involved in all this. As in TCU, SMU, and Houston may all end up in the same conference. Not necessarily the MWC.
LikeLike
All I can say is wow (or better, WTF?)!!
Frank, what’s going on? Is this what chaos looks like? At first blush it seems that way, but with all of the dominoes falling, at least some of this is very much orchestrated. There’s a great book to be written about this somewhere… Does any of this feed back and alter thoughts about your last thread re conference stability, or is this all reverberation and exclusively second-tier happenings?
And meanwhile, back at the ranch… Our Big Ten continues forward slowly, methodically and definitively. The $15-$20M championship game grab, short term contract renegotiation with another top ten brand is still the MVP play of expansion to this point.
LikeLike
adding
LikeLike
Paterno rules!
LikeLike
BYU should jump at the chance to go independent. They can improve the quality of their football schedule, and with the TV deal, reap all the financial benefits. To stay in the MWC would mean staying in the 3rd world of the NCAA.
LikeLike
“ESPN giving BYU a golden handshake and a wink parachute to leave the MWC to go independent?!? Sounds familiar……somehow this is all going to come back and screw the Pac before TV negotiations somehow – I just know it!”
Says the Pac 10/12 guy used to getting screwed by ESPN coverage.
LikeLike
WASHINGTON LEAVES COLLEGE FOOTBALL ENTIRELY? Good. I can’t wait for the Huskies to leave college football. They suck hard enough already. Go Ducks.
LikeLike
Studying the 16 team model:
some things up front
1) Big 10 / Pac 10 / SEC = strong
2) Big 12 / ACC / Big East / MWC / CUSA = weak
3) 10 brands = ND, tOSU, PSU, UM, UNL, UT, OU, USC, BAMA, +1 SEC
4) Slots filled DO NOT mean final choice, just placeholders for now
5) Divisions are placeholders, not final decisions, not debating now
6) This is just framework, arguing individual teams is secondary
Conference #1 Big 10 = tOSU, UM, PSU, UNL = 40%
East:
Virginia, Maryland, Rutgers, Pitt, PSU, Ohio State, Michigan, MSU
West:
IU, PU, Northwestern, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa
Thinking: puts Big 10 in east coast, all adds are AAU schools, adds east coast alumni base, all large state schools
Conference #2 SEC = BAMA + 1 (UF,UGA,UT,LSU mix) = 20%
East:
UNC, NC State, Georgia, Ga Tech, Clemson, USC, Florida, Kentucky
West:
Miss, Miss St, Bama, Auburn, Vandy, Tennessee, LSU, Arkansas
Thinking: Keeps 4 ACC in same division, upgrades academics, adds state schools, expands footprint into North Carolina
Conference #3 Pac 10 = USC, UT, OU = 30%
East:
UTx, Ttech, Oklahoma, OK State, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Arizona St
West:
Washington, Wash St, Oregon, Oregon St, USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal
Thinking: forms last regional of the Big 3, allows tech and oSu to find an academic home, TU runs east & USC runs west, makes 2 Pac 8’s
Conference #4 G&G = ND = 10%
East:
Notre Dame, Army, Navy, BC, Syracuse, Duke, Va Tech, Miami
West:
TAMU, BYU, Air Force, TCU, Baylor, SMU, Tulane, Rice
Thinking: Preserves (independent) power to ND, as collection of private and military schools have similar standards, allows better teams to strengthen value via OOC scheduling, creates bigger footprint and media values for secondary teams while protecting academic standards and private status. Allows second tier team like TAMU, Miami, Va Tech, and BYU to develop “full” brand status.
Conference #5 = B&P = secondary public schools
East:
Uconn, WVU, Cincinnati, Louisville, ECU, FSU, UCF, USF
West:
Missouri, Kansas, KSU, Iowa St, Memphis, Houston, Boise State, UNLV
Thinking: collective of “lesser” schools that can pool to create more demand for secondary teams, allows a place for the “leftovers” to land where they can build new “brands” outside of current “brands”
Implications for playoff system:
1) all 5 conferences play CCG
2) G&C CCG winner plays B&P CCG winner if neither conference has better record over the other. Say FSU wins B&P CCG and finishes season 12 – 1, while ND wins G&C CCG and finishes 12 – 1. They play following week to determine TEAM #4. If records were FSU 11 – 2 and ND was 12 – 1, then ND would automatically become TEAM #4
3) TEAM #1 = Big 10 CCG winner
4) TEAM #2 = Pac 10 CCG winner
5) TEAM #3 = SEC CCG winner
6) Big 10 champ (TEAM #1) plays Pac 10 champ (TEAM #2) in Rose Bowl
7) SEC champ (TEAM #3) plays (TEAM #4) in Sugar Bowl
8) Rose Bowl winner plays Sugar Bowl winner for National Championship
9) for Big 3 + 2 BCS teams, other 2 get +1 BCS team = 8 teams
10) secondary bowls look like this
Fiesta Bowl = #2 Pac 10 team vs #2 Big 10
Orange Bowl = #2 SEC team vs #2 G&C
Outback = #3 SEC team vs #3 Big 10
Cotton = #3 Pac 10 team vs #2 B&P
Positive points:
a) use CCG to narrow teams to 4, less upset of schedules & academics
b) keeps importance of Rose and Sugar, with historic teams
c) does not require added weeks for playoff system, less disruption
d) Divides top bowls as follows:
Big 10 (3) contractual bids – Rose, Fiesta, Outback
Pac 10 (3) contractual bids – Rose, Fiesta, Cotton
SEC (3) contractual bids – Sugar, Orange, Outback
G&C (1+1) contractual bid(s) – Sugar ?, Orange
B&P (1+1) contractual bid(s) – Sugar ?, Cotton
This covers 70 of the roughly 120 D 1 college football teams
While the Big 10 and SEC currently share, this allows the Pac 10, G&C, and B&P to decide if they want equal or unequal division (a sticking point as we have seen in previous discussions)
LikeLike
Hello to all,
Just back from the islands’. St. Croix was sunny and the water and scenery were beautiful.
I see we have something new to ruminate over. Have just been spending some time catching up on the post and waiting to see if these medium sizes dominos gets the action moving again up top.
LikeLike
Conference #1 Big 10 = tOSU, UM, PSU, UNL = 40%
East:
Virginia, Maryland, Rutgers, Pitt, PSU, Ohio State, Michigan, MSU
West:
IU, PU, Northwestern, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa
Thinking: puts Big 10 in east coast, all adds are AAU schools, adds east coast alumni base, all large state schools
Could see it, although Big Ten might be cool to Pitt (no new market), and might prefer Syracuse even though SU is private and relatively weak on research.
Conference #2 SEC = BAMA + 1 (UF,UGA,UT,LSU mix) = 20%
East:
UNC, NC State, Georgia, Ga Tech, Clemson, USC, Florida, Kentucky
West:
Miss, Miss St, Bama, Auburn, Vandy, Tennessee, LSU, Arkansas
Thinking: Keeps 4 ACC in same division, upgrades academics, adds state schools, expands footprint into North Carolina
North Carolina is the Texas of Tobacco Road (needs to be the lead dog). Substitute Virginia Tech for UNC and this might work.
Conference #3 Pac 10 = USC, UT, OU = 30%
East:
UTx, Ttech, Oklahoma, OK State, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Arizona St
West:
Washington, Wash St, Oregon, Oregon St, USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal
Thinking: forms last regional of the Big 3, allows tech and oSu to find an academic home, TU runs east & USC runs west, makes 2 Pac 8′s
Of the conference scenarios you envision, this has the most chance of proceeding as you planned.
Conference #4 G&G = ND = 10%
East:
Notre Dame, Army, Navy, BC, Syracuse, Duke, Va Tech, Miami
West:
TAMU, BYU, Air Force, TCU, Baylor, SMU, Tulane, Rice
Thinking: Preserves (independent) power to ND, as collection of private and military schools have similar standards, allows better teams to strengthen value via OOC scheduling, creates bigger footprint and media values for secondary teams while protecting academic standards and private status. Allows second tier team like TAMU, Miami, Va Tech, and BYU to develop “full” brand status.
Conference #5 = B&P = secondary public schools
East:
Uconn, WVU, Cincinnati, Louisville, ECU, FSU, UCF, USF
West:
Missouri, Kansas, KSU, Iowa St, Memphis, Houston, Boise State, UNLV
Thinking: collective of “lesser” schools that can pool to create more demand for secondary teams, allows a place for the “leftovers” to land where they can build new “brands” outside of current “brands”
Both of these are longshots. I don’t think any of the service academics have BCS status as their #1 priority. Duke will want to be linked with UNC and A&M wants the SEC. Oh, and A&M, Miami and Virginia Tech are hardly “second-tier” schools.
LikeLike
vincent,
this was a “rough draft” as you and I have both discussed VT and ACC teams for quite some time on here. It may not reflect all actual movement accurately but was intended to show an overall perspective without “individual” tweaks to the system. The point of the G&C conference was to illustrate how some “out of the box” thinking could look in a “superconference” world. While I agree in principle about your service academies point, this would allow them participation in a conference with like minded schools. Plus ND and Navy have a long history that extends to “handshake” deals in a world clamoring for “ironclad” contracts.
A&M, Miami, and VT are second tier in football compared to USC, tOSU, and BAMA. While I agree 100 % that Miami and VT are knocking on the “first tier” door, their history of being great has not passed the multi generational test that a team like OU already has. Again the point of the post was to focus on the “big picture” and not get “bogged down” yet with the logistics of each individual team. The goal was to show how a 16 team model could lead to a 4 team “playoff” while disrupting travel and academic conflict in the LEAST way possible. This model was an attempt to show a possible way this could be done, and not intended to become a debate on each team involved (at least not yet 🙂 ). My apology if I was not clearer in getting this basic point across. You know I respect your thinking on this blog, and was not implying that these are the actual teams I would put in each one of the slots.
LikeLike
What was TCU coach Patterson hinting at that BYU might not know about and also make independence risky?
1. Patterson is blowharding, desperate to keep BYU in.
2. He’s been tipped off to likely changes to the BCS. TCU is 20 minutes from JerryWorld, so rumors from the BCS could easily trickle into his circle.
Perhaps JerryWorld is about to be named the 5th BCS Bowl and is looking at the MWC as their tie-in. But wouldn’t word of that quickly leak through the conference?
Perhaps the BCS will propose modifying its format, and making it much harder for non-AQ conf teams and indy’s to qualify. I’ve speculated on if Texas asked for some BCS changes in return for not starting the super conference era, which supposedly the BCS bowls fear. Could be based on 7×12 conf formats or something else.
Perhaps Patterson is hearing from sources close to TX or other pertinent schools that 16 team super conferences are inevitable, but maybe 5×16 instead of 4×16 (JerryWorld added, each super conf gets their own bowl and virtually shuts out non-super conf schools, forcing ND into a conf.) MWC becomes the favorite to be the 5th super conf, but BYU could be screwed if they burn that bridge.
But unless the B10+? moves soon (and there’s been zero buzz about such leaking out, right?) I’m not sure how a domino falls in the next 2 weeks, in regards to super conf. But consider this, TX’s choice of movement becomes politically much easier if connected Texas schools such as Baylor, TTech, UHou, and/or SMU have a BCS-equivalent alternative in the super conf realignment. Say TX does reach an agreement with the P12 to bring 3 friends, the Ags go to the SEC, the BEast is devoured by the B10+?, ACC, and SEC, there are still enough slots left to place most or all of the other B12-2 schools between those conferences and the MWC. Find everybody a home and there isn’t much for the Texas politicians to complain about.
Not sure I buy any of those theories, but they are possibilities. No buzz on the TX or TexAgs boards.
LikeLike
@Playoffs Now – TCU alum here. Patterson isn’t lying, but he gets excited about weird things. Maybe he knows something huge, but it could just be that he came up with some clever defensive wrinkle that will drive BYU’s offense crazy when they come to Fort Worth. (Oct. 16, which has suddenly acquired a big red circle on my calendar).
As for BYUtv, my understanding was that their only revenue came from donations – they get no ad revenue or subscriber fees, which is why so many TV providers toss it in their basic tier. What would happen if they suddenly tried to charge subscriber fees? Would the carriers drop that sucker like an Andy Dalton pass in the Fiesta Bowl? Advertising revenues might be easier to start up than subscriber fees, but BYU sports aren’t really a huge sell, and if they refuse to run beer ads (this is BYU, after all) that would be a pretty serious limitation. Banking $1.5 million per year could be tougher than Frank makes it seem.
Frank – from what I’ve seen, BYUtv runs a bunch of genealogy shows and reruns of classic BYU football games, along with some live sports, like men’s volleyball and an occasional baseball game. And broadcasts of church services, naturally. But the Jim McMahon show sounds like a winner.
LikeLike
BYUTV recently showed up on our DVR because they were showing “Anne of Green Gables” sequels. They seem to also have some fictional shows I never heard of, not sure the source of those.
I’d previously watched it once because of the MSU/BYU basketball game.
LikeLike
It is also easier to sell superconferences if the number of BCS automatic qualifying schools (and the apparent money available to them) increases. You can argue, from a large conference viewpoint, that we will have 70 or even 86 teams in AQ conferences as opposed to the current 66. Meanwhile, the real superconferences (Big 10, SEC, Pac10) will have even bigger TV deals actually leading to greater disparity. So while the smaller conference schools will be taking in more money than they do now, and have some more limited prestige, the bigger superconferences will be raking in huge amounts of money with which no one can regularly compete.
This is why, if you are the Big 10, you may support the MWC in obtaining AQ status. It is a trade off to where you think you can go. What is $18 million when it may lead to the right 16 teams in your conference and true, national TV status? The BCS itself becomes a means to an end.
LikeLike
This might be to what “Playoffs Now” is asking.
This is just unsubstantiated rumor so it might be rumor mongering at it’s finest (which I have no problem with)
ESPN is brokering a deal to save C-USA and the MWC and some of the homeless orphans from the WAC. TCU and Louisiana Tech would joining C-USA putting TCU, UTEP, SMU, and Houston in the same conference, and giving them 14 teams.
Both C-USA and the MWC would be tied together for ONE BCS spot that the highest rated conference winner would get.
The Cotton Bowl will be announced as the 5th BCS Bowl Game. (this is part of what Patterson knows)
Another crazy rumor along those lines: C-USA winner and the MWC would play in a inter-Conference championship game,with each conference sending it’s champ/highest rated team. It would be like a playoff play in game. Winner goes to the BCS. Where would this game be played? Jerry World (this rumor I think is a stretch but it makes sense)
All of this is tied to a TV deal with ESPN for both MWC and C-USA.
This is the deal the BYU is balking at. This TV deal didn’t come close to the money per team that Utah is getting in the 12-Pac (10-15 million eventually) BYU thinks they can make more money as an Indy, then they can in this deal.
LikeLike
Average since breakup of SWC:
Memphis 30,268
TCU 30,074
UH 19,790
Last 4 years when TCU has been great they have outdrawn Memphis, but only 32k to 28k. UH has only drawn 22k over last 4 years. Memphis was drawing 40k in 2003-2005.
Others since 1996 (4 yr)
ECU 35,960 (41,872)
UCF 27,208 (38,315)
USM 27,058 (29,128)
LikeLike
@bullet – Interesting. Is there a website where you get those?
LikeLike
You can find individual years on NCAA.org. Not sure how far back they keep them-saw a link for 99-08 archives. I’ve downloaded them in prior years, so I’ve got it back to 96.
Look up football team statistics. They update a variety of stats, including attendance, each week during the season. Always interesting to look at top players’ stats when they are talking about the Heisman and contrasting that with the hype those players are getting.
LikeLike
10 team MWC & 14 team CUSA conference winners facing off? Unless CUSA manages to shed a few teams, it’s hard to see how they can pull this off, scheduling-wise.
I suppose they could both get to 12, then a round-robin in both conferences means 11 conference games and 1 non-conf (vs. a patsy, likely).
If I was BYU, I’d object to that plan as well. Of course, the BE could make things easier by taking 2 of UCF/Memphis/TCU/Houston.
LikeLike
well if the MWC adds some WAC orphans they could get to either 12 or 14 teams. BUT I would assume the MWC schools don’t want to go that big (the 16 team WAC comes to their minds) Plus the teams left even the MWC don’t want I would assume. Utah St, Idaho, New Mexico St,San Jose St are really dressed up FCS schools. And there’s the travel issues with Hawaii
But the 2 conferences wouldn’t have to play each other in the regular season. Just their #1 team play in a playoff game.
LikeLike
Right, but a 14 school CUSA will have it’s own championship game (unless the conference decides that not playing a roundrobin is OK), so fitting in _another_ game at the end of the season would be difficult unless the NCAA gives them an exemption from the “12 game + championship game” limit.
A 12-school roundrobin seems too much, but an 11-school roundrobin probably would fly if the winner is guaranteed a shot at a BCS berth.
LikeLike
and I’m going to guess that’s one of the issues. If they split the conferences into 2 sides…who’s the winner if they don’t play a round robin? Would they have a championship game, then the Inter-championship game? That would be tough
LikeLike
maybe..and this is just thinking out loud…C-USA spins off their eastern schools like Marshall, UCF, E. Carolina. Memphis joins the Big-least.
That would give you 10 teams and 10 teams in each of the MWC and C-USA
LikeLike
Riffing on that theme, I wonder if ESPN is quietly “encouraging” the BE to take in a couple of UCF/Memphis/ECU/Houston/TCU.
CUSA wouldn’t kick out ECU & UCF by themselves; those schools bring too much. Marshall may be sacrificed.
LikeLike
@Richard With the rumors of ESPN behind the scenes brokering all this, that could make sense.
It makes C-USA a Texas and gulf coast conference. Boosts the Big East as well.
The Utah States, New Mexico States, Marshalls of this world seem to be the ones that will pushed down or to the side (and frankly I’m all for that. Those teams are not FBS caliber teams)
LikeLike
Well, they’re Sun Belt-caliber; maybe even MAC-caliber.
LikeLike
Yeah, a 20 team superconference (as others discussed below) could work with 0-1 cross-divisional games and a 9 game divisional schedule.
I suppose if you want to group 24 schools, you could have four 6-team divisions. Then have the highest 2 division winners meet in a ‘Championship game’ while the other 2 meet in another ‘Championship game’. You wouldn’t get a true conference champion, but you would get 2 co-champions. The winner of the first game would end up with a decent ranking most years, with a shot at the BCS.
I think it would require an NCAA waiver, but I think it would look bad for the other conferences if they tried to block it.
LikeLike
“Then have the highest 2 division winners meet in a ‘Championship game’”
That should be “the 2 highest-ranking division winners meet in a ‘Championship game'”
LikeLike
Rivals’ Houston site reports a super conference of 20 teams may be formed among the best of the Mountain West and C-USA.
LikeLike
One of the original rumors of the ‘ESPN Conference’:
http://www.cougarboard.com/nologin/message.html?id=5796747
Here’s what I thought was most interesting: A new conference was trying to be started by ESPN — BYU, TCU, boise, fresno st, san diego st, smu and Houston. . . . “No. 2 guy at espn almost had it done. UNLV and SDSU would have had nowhere to go. WAC has better fb tv contract than mwc. The new conference was to have a thurs and fri night game every week. ESPN was to pay big to fund it.” Apparently, they ran out of time and couldn’t get it done.
LikeLike
This rumor seems to have circulated heavy yesterday among some big wig lawyers/boosters.
LikeLike
Well, considering that the new MWC has 11 teams (as of now) and CUSA has 12, a 20-team superconference still wouldn’t be too difficult to form. If the BE takes 2 teams, only 1 team would be kicked out . . .
LikeLike
Or more likely, Get BYU to stay in the MWC, now the ESPNMWDivision, shift TCU to the ESPN East, and take the 9 best applicants to join TCU. Each 10-school division plays 9 games internally, then their champs meets in a conf champ game. Winner gets a Cotton Bowl bid, the 5th BCS bowl.
BEast sounds like they don’t want to do anything until their TV network analysis is done and they know what the B10+? is doing. B12-2 doesn’t want to do anything at the moment. ND wants to stay locked away in its abbey.
Once Delany makes his move it all shakes out again, but ESPN is better positioned to influence the overall outcome. ESPN Conference and BEast likely get raided, but ESPN Conf big enough to likely survive and provide a safe home for B12 castoffs if TX later wants to move, giving TX political cover. Further separates out the hanger on schools getting closer to a true BCS core of 80+ schools that have any legit claim of belonging.
On first glance this may be a win-win for college football as a whole.
LikeLike
Which 3 schools would be cut?
Marshall? Tulane? UTEP? UAB? S.Miss?
Wyoming’s the only obvious candidate in the MWC, but CSU and AF are likely there to protect it.
LikeLike
Richard – Tulane is too fun of a roady to get cut. Southern Miss Figthing Favre’s are usually too good to get cut.
LikeLike
@Richard – On the MWC side, SDSU has been threatening to drop football (or move down to FCS) for awhile. Their president is dead-set against it, but he may not have a choice.
Wyoming is extremely committed to athletics. I believe I read that they have the highest student athletic fees as a percentage of tuition of any school in the country. And yeah, they have a solid rivalry with CSU, but what has that ever done for anyone?
As for this whole MWC-CUSA split BCS berth plan, it sounds nice, but why would TCU and the MWC go for it? TCU already left CUSA once and isn’t at all interested in being in a conference with SMU, UTEP, Houston and Rice; and the MWC is as likely to get a BCS berth on its own as it is with CUSA. Why share the wealth? Now, if it was MWC vs. Big East for that BCS berth, then you might have something, but I don’t think the BEast would be too happy with that arrangement.
LikeLike
Don’t know. Sounds like ESPN originally wanted to dump one or more of the weaker MWC schools but that didn’t go over well.
I’d keep it simple and leave the MWC alone, then raid the other conferences:
ESPNMW Div
Boise
BYU
WY
Colo St
AF
NM
NV
Fresno
UNLV
SDSU (hey, at least it is a SoCal recruiting foothold)
ESPNE Div
UTEP
TCU
SMU
UHou
Tulsa
Mem
UCF
ECU
2 of Hawaii-S.MS-LA Tech-Marshall-Tulane-UAB
An ESPN Conf would solve a lot of problems for the BCS conferences by sequestering every ‘problem’ BCS buster into a single conference. Add the JerryBowl for 10 BCS slots, give the conference one AQ, and you can basically limit them to just 1 of 10 slots instead of potentially 2 of 8. Limit them to 1/10th of the payout split 20 ways. Keeps the BCS conf schools at an advantage while providing enough inclusion to keep Congress (and public opinion) at bay. And of course lays the groundwork for a BCS-bowls based playoff.
LikeLike
As for this whole MWC-CUSA split BCS berth plan, it sounds nice, but why would TCU and the MWC go for it?
If ESPN has reached an agreement with the BCS and its bowls to give the new conference an AQ, that is more attractive to TCU than the crap they go through now. Win conf and you’re in, guaranteed.
LikeLike
I think adding another BCS bowl might be a problem. They did dilute the games going from 8 teams to 10 and I think going to 12 would further that a lot.
LikeLike
So long as adding more BCS bowls doesn’t dilute the payout (and I doubt it would), no one’s going to care about “dilution”.
LikeLike
http://www.cougarboard.com/nologin/message.html?id=5801099
Story is BYU got assurances that WAC would hold together, BYU made plans, Nevada and FSU double crossed BYU and WAC
LikeLike
Sorry for forgetting the quotemarks, all of that was a quote. Should read:
“Story is BYU got assurances that WAC would hold together, BYU made plans, Nevada and FSU double crossed BYU and WAC”
LikeLike
MWC said BYU was aware of plans to add Fresno and Nevada. Hmmm.
LikeLike
http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/24841/three-point-stance-money-talks-again
Ivan Maisel’s nuggets:
1. (Basically says the FSU and NV doublecrossed the WAC and BYU.)
“2. MWC commissioner Craig Thompson said in a teleconference late Wednesday night that he will not make a pitch to BYU to keep the Cougars from leaving the league to pursue independence in football. “They know who we are,” Thompson said. He added that the league won’t make concessions to BYU to stay in the MWC, as Big 12 members did with Texas. If BYU intends to go national, there’s nothing the MWC can offer that would quench that thirst. ”
3. (Says Pelini is immature.)
LikeLike
Another rumor from a UHou board, FWIW:
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=215&f=2804&t=6237179&p=2
(requires free registration)
excerpt:
…On realignment MR (UHou AD) is tight lipped as you would expect him to be. He did say we will not know anything until after Sept 1 (I am sure you are aware of the significance of that date).
My other sources highly placed with other schools affected by this as well as ESPN says that U of H is the next target. They are looking to build a 12 team conference. Lots of bucks for ESPN with a playoff.(I assume he is referring to a conf champ game.) I have heard no mention from any source that Hawaii is being considered. There are some other familiar names on the list in addition to us but as I said we are at the top of the list. I feel good about this although I have in the past been concerned about travel expense. But if this aligns the way I am hearing we will have enough schools close by to make this feasible. Plus the powers that be feel there is no way this conference would not be a BCS conference.
LikeLike
Lots of bucks for ESPN with a playoff.(I assume he is referring to a conf champ game.)
Is there really that much money in it for ESPN to have the opportunity to show a conference championship game of a mid-tier conference?
LikeLike
@Hopkins Horn – Yeah, that’s got to be overstated. While the Big Ten and SEC championship games are valued around $15-20 million per year, the ACC’s championship game is worth substantially less (I’ve read in the $5 million range). C-USA already has a conference championship game and I don’t think that it provides the conference more than a rounding error in terms of revenue. A mid-tier conference championship game might garner around $1 million – it’s certainly not enough to justify expansion simply for the sake of getting to 12.
LikeLike
Thinking about it, it’s not just the CCG angle that makes the idea of ESPN pimping this seem odd.
Unless the Ocho is finally in the works, or ESPN is planning Tuesday and Wednesday night doubleheaders, when in the world would ESPN find the time to air the games of whatever the hell is supposedly percolating right now?
It’s not as if ESPN, ESPN2 and ESPNU are lacking for content right now from the mix of games from all of the BCS conferences.
LikeLike
You have to believe that ESPN is thinking of rebranding ESPN Classic since they have stopped producing original content for it. That network could soak up a lot of event programming.
LikeLike
@Hopkins Horn – The Ocho is already here:
(1) ESPN
(2) ESPN2
(3) ESPNU
(4) ESPN Classic
(5) ESPN Deportes
(6) ESPN3.com
(7) ESPN News
(8) ESPN 3D
LikeLike
Damn. I thought there’d be some sort of national holiday when the day arrived.
LikeLike
@MAR1962:
I thought the point behind the concept of the original Classic channel, before ESPN acquired it, was in fact the lack of original content!
LikeLike
It wouldn’t suprise me if ESPN didn’t start showing games on Sundays, Mondays, Tuesdays, & Wednesdays to go along with Thursdays, Fridays, & Saturdays.
LikeLike
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think a combination of the MWC and CUSA is much more attractive either of the original leagues.
LikeLike
Depending on the proposal (and I suspect there are several ranging from just a 12-school MWC up to a 20 or 24 pairing) there could be lots of neutral site JerryWorld games throughout the season as part of the agreement. Between JJ and ESPN there could be lots of ways to pump in $$$ to make a viable package (and these wannabe BCS outsiders have a much, much lower buyoff threshold than the B12 schools did. Easier to turn a profit when you’re dealing with penny schools for inventory.)
Also, by appearing to meet the outsiders’ demands for BCS access with a new leftovers conference and a spot in the 5th BCS bowl at Jerryworld, you still sequester these outside threats. The ESPN Conf champ gets a BCS conf wildcard, protecting the big boys’ champs from possible upset. Implement a +1 so in theory the ESPN Conf champ has a title shot, but in reality they’d be more likely frozen out this way than in the current system. TCU-Boise Quarantine Bowl was too obvious for the BCS to keep getting away with that, have to be more creative in the future, this might do that.
My gut says ESPN has floated at least the 10-10=20 plan, a 12-school MWC proposal that drops some of the dead weight (1 or more of SDSU, UNLV, and NM,) and a 12-school MWC with minimal adds. MWC is trying to keep all on board and add either UH, SMU, or HI as the 12th, or two if BYU leaves. TCU doesn’t want both UH and SMU, but if BYU leaves both likely get added. I doubt ESPN is thrilled to have NV signed on, but perhaps that was necessary to kill BYU’s exit. Or maybe the MWC commish and schools want to keep it a MWC conf than the 10-10=20 combo.
LikeLike
MWC is under contract for a few more years, so any ESPN deal would have to pull teams out of there. MWC is an example of a conference network hampering the conference. They would have gotten tremendous exposure and had the potential for lots more $ the last couple of years.
Neutral site games with these teams would result in empty seats which is bad TV.
I suspect this is more idle rumours, but stranger things have happened.
LikeLike
@bullet
agreed about the empty seats. what kind of CUSA/MWC game at Jerryworld would even fill half of it? TCU and some other team may have a chance at an ok crowd, but most matchups would be embarrassingly empty.
LikeLike
1. BYU
2. TCU
3 ……
Uh, yeah, maybe not.
LikeLike
Hearing that MWC is REALLY unhappy with their TV deal. They might try to get out of it’s TV deals as it was promised far wider distribution then it’s gotten. It’s not even available in DFW market where TCU is.
Argument will be THEY didn’t live up to their end of the contract.
LikeLike
@bullet
I think JerryWorld holds about as many people that live in the state of Wyoming
LikeLike
I was thinking along the lines of Jerry World rotating BYU, Boise, and TCU vs schools with lots of alumni in Texas such as OU, OK St, AR, LSU, TTech, NE, aTm, ND, maybe MO. Some of the non-ESPN Conf teams probably wouldn’t want to risk scheduling Boise, BYU, or TCU but might UHou or SMU.
Yeah, I may have oversold that potential, but still think JerryWorld could ink one or two of those games per year, perhaps even beyond AR playing there annually. ND likes games in Texas, NE travels and in a few years after emotions cool might savor a non-B12 game in Texas to pursue recruits. SMU may soon be too good, but for the moment that’s in TTech’s OOC wheelhouse and Dallas is home to their largest alumni base. With aTm you might could get an AF or WY. With JJones perhaps cofinancing the conf and the higher ESPN payouts the conf teams might be obligated to switch 1 home game to neutral every 4 or 5 years.
LikeLike
I don’t think there is a desire for A&M play in Jerryworld for 2 regular season games a year.
Maybe a school like SMU could make a 2 home/1 away series with A&M and have their ‘home’ game at Jerryworld, but I don’t think A&M would add a second neutral game in Dallas.
LikeLike
Actually there is another source on this: The Orlando paper is reporting 2 people with knowledge of the talks:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/college/os-college-football-expansion-20100819,0,4134695.story
LikeLike
Sorry m(AG), I didn’t realize aTm-AR in Arlington was a 10-year deal with renewal options. Yes, no one is going to play 2 regular season games per year there.
LikeLike
The BCS conferences would want the new super-MWC/CUSA to grow to 20 so that they take in any school that could conceivably challenge for a BCS spot.
So besides Houston, I’d take ECU, UCF, Memphis, S. Miss, Tulane, & Tulsa. Then SMU + one of Rice, UTEP, or UAB. Of course, the math works out easier if everyone pressures the Big East to take in 2 schools.
LikeLike
So, no one thinks that a MAC team could conceivably put together a BCS-worthy season?
LikeLike
I do. Miami, Bowling Green, Northern Illinois and Toledo have all put together seasons that would be BCS worthy.
LikeLike
Yeah, I remember back in ’03 I think when there was a serious debate over which Miami had the better team. Would’ve been cool to see them meet in a bowl.
LikeLike
Think that was when Miami (OH) had Ben Rothlesberger. And their top reciever was Barry Larkin’s nephew. They finished ranked 12th if I remember correctly. The MAC has had some decent teams. It’s almost impossible to build anything that lasts recruiting against tOSU, ND and Team Up North.
LikeLike
Some division news:
Rumors from the Michigan side are that the conference is leaning towards splitting up Michigan and OSU. I guess the feeling is that, just as they have so often historically determined the Big Ten Championship, they should retain that ability in the new Big Ten.
The other news is that, if this plays out, Michigan is looking at being in a division with PSU, while OSU and Nebraska would be together (that’s what Michigan wants anyway).
LikeLike
@Ross Hatton – Ugh. Seeing that Ohio State is the closest thing that Penn State has to a real rival in the Big Ten, that’s a double-ugh at a Michigan/PSU and OSU/Nebraska split. That one makes no sense at all.
LikeLike
Well I don’t know if the Michigan/PSU thing would happen if the split occurred. What’s been said is that this is what Michigan would want as PSU is an eastern partner, and Pennsylvania is a much better recruiting ground than Nebraska.
It remains to be seen if Michigan/OSU will be split and whether or not PSU would end up with Michigan.
LikeLike
Prefer Mich and tOSU staying in the same division, but if they have to be split, I want Michigan w/ PSU. Let tOSU get the bump in recruiting…in Nebraska. Mich has historically pulled great recruits out of PA.
LikeLike
Actually I think I do see the logic there even if I wouldn’t do it myself. The conference does seem to really want to avoid a Big 12 like situation (their comments suggest this is a bigger worry to them than an ACC situation). If that’s the case, Ohio and Pennsylvania are the best states to recruit from. They are both declining in that way, but they are definitely still top. It might make it harder on the other division if both are put in the same division.
That said, Penn State remains more of an outlier than anyone else as the only eastern team (everyone else at least defines as Midwestern). Ohio State was the team they were circling and a rivalry was growing there. I find it hard to believe the conference would abandon that game, which means a 5-2-2 eventually feels likely to me if they go this route.
LikeLike
Where’s the outcry? The only way to stop this from happening is to plaster Park Ridge with negative feedback. Unless the fans make themselves heard, this will be foisted upon us.
LikeLike
Well here’s my thinking…there is no way, no way at all, a split like this happens without the consent of both of these teams. As a Michigan fan/student, I am well aware of how our alumni value tradition. Just look at the past few years…
Fighting over the hiring of Rich Rod, rather than a “Michigan Man”, the mistaken use of the #1 Jersey, the mistakes regarding team captains in football, the fighting against night games until recently, the resistance to PSU in the Big Ten, etc. There is so much Michigan alumni have fought against in wanting to preserve historical traditions. I cannot imagine where the pushback is over this from Michigan, let alone OSU as well.
LikeLike
I think it’s people are either lazy or cynical or both (perhaps they use their cynicism to justify their laziness).
LikeLike
It’s also a problem that most of this will be decided before anyone notices. Unless you are a dork like us, no one is going to be paying that much attention until after the decision is already made.
LikeLike
It astounds me how otherwise knowlageable fans can be so ignorant about expansion. I know lots of people that think Missouri turned the BT down. And people that think Rutgers, Pitt or WVU would have been a better fit than Nebraska.
LikeLike
It actually sounds like they have put a lot of effort into this decision. It might be worth looking at for 2 – 3years or at least till the next expansion. I am in favor of a KISS setup myself but we should be open to change. It might be for the better.
LikeLike
Strongly written letters!
LikeLike
I did just write to OSU’s athletic department telling them that if the OSU-Michigan game date is changed, I would never again be an alumni association member and would cease to be a Big Ten fan.
(I also mentioned that I would not be buying from Nike this year due to them once again having OSU wear those ugly helmets against Michigan.)
LikeLike
What really sickens me about this is that it would mean I’d have to begrudgingly admit that the smug Domers (like rich) were absolutely right: the Big Ten is just diving for dollars. I don’t mind making money, but if they don’t go about doing it the right way . . . . When making money is the point, rather than a consequence, of what the league is doing, it’s lost its way in exactly the way that the Domers have suspected will happen and I spent the last 8 months vigorously denying.
LikeLike
Screw the Domers. By the time they join the conference they will be making regular appearances in its second division. Their smugness will be turn out to be the incentive not to win but not to lose to them.
LikeLike
@Adam:
Substitute “Texas” for “Big Ten,” and you’ll read something very similar to criticisms I’ve seen on here for months. (Not saying that those criticisms are wrong, just that this one is similar.)
LikeLike
Not only that, but if ND didn’t have the dollars it has gained by renting NBC for what, 20 years, and sweet-talking the BE into taking care of non-football, it certainly would be diving as well.
LikeLike
I don’t think the masses are paying as much attention as we are. If the mess up the UM-OSU game, and surprise most people, I would expect there to be a backlash. I have a hard time buying that they are that unaware of the passion of fans when they are banking on it.
I don’t like not doing East-West, but I can understand the rationale. PSU and Neb have to be together and UM and OSU, then I can live with any alignment, although I won’t necessarily like it.
Then again, if they are still planning expansion, say in 2015, maybe this is the plan:
Outer Division
Maryland
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
Penn State
Nebraska
Iowa
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Inner Division
Michigan
Ohio State
Michigan State
Indiana
Purdue
Northwestern
Illinois
Notre Dame
LikeLike
If that they do go Ohio State/Nebraska and Michigan/Penn State, let’s try to picture the divisions. I really can’t imagine the conference letting Ohio State and Penn State avoid playing each year. Ohio State would move on, but I think they are going to have to give that concession to PSU. That means a 5-2-2. So if it goes like this, I’ll guess:
Ohio State
Nebraska
Iowa
Purdue
Indiana
Illinois
Michigan
Penn State
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Michigan State
Northwestern
Two permanent rivalries would preserve all/most trophy games, etc. I put Northwestern on that side because I read Michigan State wanted to continue playing them every year, but you could redo the bottom a lot. It might make more sense to push Michigan State to the other side all together.
LikeLike
This is by far the worst possible split of the Big 4.
IMO
1. Geographic-keeps all the rivalries in division
2. Michigan and Ohio State together, Penn State and Nebraska on the other side- keep OSU-UM as in division game, but probably breaks up Wisconsin-Iowa as do all other non-geographic setups
3. Michigan and Nebraska together- splits up two historically best programs (Nebraska/OSU) and keeps Penn State with only real rival
4. Michigan and Penn State together- separates Penn State from Ohio State, puts two best programs on one side
Why the hell does Michigan want this?
Devil’s advocate: This setup would allow the MSU-Penn State game to continue easily which is probably lost any other way.
As a Northwestern fan, I hope the division works out to Michigan-Penn State-MSU-Wisconsin-Northwestern-Illinois. That’s a division the ‘Cats can win maybe every 4 years.
LikeLike
I’ve stayed out of the Big Ten divisional arguments, since I thought cooler heads would prevail with the SEC/KISS model, and I don’t have a dog in this hunt.
Now it appears that all those super smart people at the Big Ten office are going to f-up something as simple as football divisions. So if they aren’t going to go for the SEC/KISS model, how about a modified-zipper like this with one cross-divisional rivalry preserved?
A Div. B Div.
Penn St Ohio St
Mich St Michigan
Indiana Purdue
Illinois Northwestern
Nebraska Iowa
Wisconsin Minnesota
I’m sure I probably just eliminated some trophy, ax, bucket or pig, but that’s how you make sausage.
LikeLike
If you eliminate the axe and the pig, then you really can’t make sausage.
LikeLike
And for the squeamish, you would also need that thar spittoon.
LikeLike
Rather than a 20-team C-USA/MWC, I’m told it may be more likely that C-USA adds two teams to grow to 14. The additions: TCU and Temple. 12 minutes ago via web
Sheesh Louise!
LikeLike
Why would TCU leave the MWC for CUSA now when they didn’t do so before?
LikeLike
@Richard – Yeah, I don’t see why TCU would ever think that’s a good idea. Temple has a legit concern where the MAC could force them to join for all-sports after 2012 or drop them for football, so maybe they like C-USA better as an all-sports option. TCU has no incentive to move to C-USA, though.
LikeLike
I find all these reports questionable.
However, it might work if ESPN goes more regional. Months ago I theorized that we could see a shift of smaller conferences back into regions. While the big conferences could have national networks, the smaller conferences need multiple schools in a market to ensure their network would get coverage. For example, having TCU or Houston in a conference might not get you on cable in Texas, but having both of those schools + SMU + Rice likely does. They’d make much less money that the Big 12 schools, but they’d get some money.
How might this fit in for ESPN? Well, now that they have ESPN3 on the internet, they can get even more regional with their coverage. They could show one game on ESPNU in Texas, and a different game on ESPNU in Utah. The other game could be placed on ESPN3 in both locales. This could provide additional push for cable companies to add ESPNU, and get a few more people interested in ESPN3.
LikeLike
It’s a stretch, but if BYU still intends on going independent, it’s possible Conference USA would like better.
LikeLike
If Temple solidifies the gains they’ve made under Al Golden, they will be a good catch for a conference like C-USA.
LikeLike
If Temple solidifies the gains made under Al Golden, they’d be a good catch for the Big East, which is probably kicking themselves for kicking Temple out of the conference.
LikeLike
I don’t think the Big East is regretting kicking out Temple yet, but if they take the next step (which is increasing fan interest/attendance) I think the Big East would consider asking them back.
I believe Uconn, Cinn, Lville and USF were not part of kicking them out, so there aren’t that many schools that have to reverse themselves.
LikeLike
Notre Dame and the Big East schools that don’t play in the football conference aren’t going to let the football schools grab a majority vote, which is what would happen if Central Florida, East Carolina, Memphis or Temple was invited — and all would insist on being all-sports members. Unless the Big East football members have the courage to declare independence from the Providence powers that be, the stalemate will continue.
LikeLike
No advantage for TCU to go back to Conference USA
LikeLike
It would save significant travel dollars for a program that has sold out exactly one football home game the last two years.
LikeLike
only for the Texas state travel.
Would going to UTEP be that much cheaper than going to New Mexico?
What about going to Marshall? Or E. Carolina? Or UCF? Are they easier or cheaper to get to from DFW than the San Diego or Boise, ID?
If travel was the concern, why didn’t they stay in C-USA? I know the MWC TV deal isn’t near as good as it was set up to be, but they still are better than C-USA has.
If TCU joins C-USA it will be due to a merger with the MWC and a new TV deal with ESPN. But why would they add Temple? That’s a long way from El Paso, TX and Temple does nothing.
So at least 1/2 of this Tweet is wrong.
LikeLike
Just reaching for something that makes sense. Considering that I didn’t the original move made a big difference, I don’t think they’ll move back.
LikeLike
Hey conspiracy nuts!
Guess who just scheduled two additional games with the newly-independent BYU?
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/bohls/entries/2010/08/19/texasbyu_footba.html?srcTrk=RTR_95649
(Oh, and that series with Maryland in 2017-18 finally looks just about official.)
LikeLike
I’ve been mulling over an idea for awhile, whereby the Big Ten could have its cake and eat it, too, and I thought I’d throw it out there for smarter heads to digest or spit out. It might seem like a cake-in-the-sky idea, but even if it didn’t work, it would garner the BT some good PR.
Since ESPN seems to have turned into a conference broker, why doesn’t the BT call a pow wow with ESPN and the Big East to form a TV partnership? The BT could use the threat of expansion and the resultant dissolution of the BE to leverage a new ESPN contract for the BE that would pay them a living wage, with the BTN getting all the secondary rights to the BE events that ESPN didn’t want. Maybe strike a 20-year contract, with the BT agreeing not to raid the BE. The BE would control the advertising on all the BE programming, and would keep all the advertising profits, while at the same time being able to promote the BE without all the costs and risks involved in starting their own network. The BT would keep all (or most of) the money from the new cable subscriptions they’d be getting, which might be substantial, considering that they’d now be covering 28 teams (20 for football), which would be quite an attractive package. Fox might even be willing to kick in something, knowing that they’d be increasing their profits, too.
If the partnership plan went through, the BT would still be free to raid any other conference besides the BE. But if the negotiations for the plan broke down, the BT could throw up its hands and say “We tried,” and then raid the hell out of the BE without looking like total robber barons.
LikeLike
Mmmm … cake.
LikeLike
The cake is a lie.
LikeLike
Trouble is, I think for now the only Big East school the Big Ten really wants to raid is Rutgers, likely in conjunction with Maryland and going to 14. If Maryland couldn’t be pulled from the ACC, the Big Ten might settle for Syracuse or Pittsburgh, but its preference would be only to take one of them if it went to 16 (and as a partner to Notre Dame). In other words, I don’t think the Big Ten has any need to keep the Big East football conference propped up.
LikeLike
The idea is to make money off the BE by getting fans of Big East teams to buy subscriptions into the BTN. If the plan works, the BT can make money off the without taking any of their teams, and the BT can potentially make the BTN into a national network with its vast amount of content. The content of 28 teams, but still only having to split the profits twelve ways. Think of the billions of dollars ESPN spends on buying content, and yet here is a chance to maybe get lots of content for next to nothing. If ESPN can make money on poker and bowling, the BTN can make money on BE fans wanting to watch their teams play. Even if the BT doesn’t really want to raid the BE, can the BE really call their bluff and risk their own destruction? Taking Rutgers and Maryland will probably doom the BE, because the ACC will probably respond by taking a BE team to replace Maryland, and might take three of them to keep up with the arms race.
LikeLike
But how would the Big East’s doom hurt the Big Ten? Picking up some leftovers such as Syracuse, Pittsburgh and Connecticut might ultimately make the ACC a bit stronger overall, but with Penn State, Rutgers and Maryland the Big Ten would have a solid hold on the mid-Atlantic.
LikeLike
The Big Ten wants the NYC market. BE basketball is some of the best in the country, and their football is decent. NYC is a basketball market, and they love their NY area teams, like St. Johns, Seton Hall, UConn, Rutgers and Syracuse, all of which the BTN would be broadcasting. And Notre Dame sports are obviously popular there, as are Big Ten sports.
Why kill the goat when you can milk it?
LikeLike
The BTN wants eyeballs. Why take one or two BE teams when you can broadcast all 16 of them without giving them shares in your conference?
LikeLike
Well, it was even more of a war than was obvious. MWC tried to eliminate WAC’s basketball bid by reducing them to 5 teams. Utah State was also invited but declined.
http://www.cachevalleydaily.com/news/local/Open-letter-from-USU-Athletics-Director-Scott-Barnes-101122009.html
LikeLike
Combine that with all of these rumors of a potential mid-major superconference, and there was total mayhem brewing among the mid-majors this past few weeks.
LikeLike
From what I’ve read, BYU was a big objector to Fresno St. getting in over the years. They apparently wanted Hawaii and Utah St. on their independent schedule. MWC worked to keep SDSU and UNLV happy and didn’t invite Hawaii who probably would have been BYU’s #1 choice.
LikeLike
I wonder if Utah State accepted if Fresno and Nevada both still would have been invited.
Really though I’m not sure destroying the WAC is in the best interest of the Mountain West. They can point out the difference in competition between the two leagues as one reason for a AQ status.
On the other hand, they don’t want another Boise State to emerge and take a BCS bid that the Mountain West champion could have.
LikeLike
What I’ve seen on MWC boards in the past is that they wanted to WAC to survive to have regional ooc games and teams to play in bowl games. And also to have, as you point out, someone beneath them in the pecking order in the west. However, they seem to have gone for the jugular when BYU looked like it was leaving. It isn’t like this is the first time the MWC teams have screwed the WAC.
LikeLike
BYU and the WAC were working behind closed doors, apparently the MWC got word and decided to eviscerate the WAC to punish them and throw a huge wrench in BYU’s plans.
I am not sold that Utah State was invited or would have been, I think the MWC got wind and approached Utah State as the likely broker with BYU, got them to expose their hand and then finished them off.
LikeLike
Go Orrin!
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5477851
Orrin Hatch still wants BCS change
LikeLike
Bullet made a great find, but it is now buried way up thread. Here’s the link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/college/os-college-football-expansion-20100819,0,4134695.story
And perhaps the most tantalizing excerpt:
…Two sources with knowledge of the discussions told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday one of the scenarios being discussed includes a possible merger of 20 teams from the Mountain West Conference and Conference USA, with the champion claiming an automatic BCS bowl bid. However, the sources stated such an agreement is complex, could easily fall apart and is far from being completed…
Also:
… (NM President) Schmidly said he was not directly negotiating with BYU, but it was his understanding the biggest issue for the Cougars was the Mountain West’s television agreement. BYU has its own television network, but the league’s contract limited the school’s access to games not picked up by the Mountain West’s network.
“Based on conversations around table with BYU officials in the past, it was clear their primary concerns were in the TV area,” Schmidly said. “There may be others developed recently, but my sense has been access and redistribution are a special area of concern for their institution…
…Utah State Athletic Director Scott Barnes…wrote that Utah State was among the schools invited to join the Mountain West, but it declined with the hope its non-football sports would compete in the same conference as BYU, located less than five miles from the Aggies’ campus.
LikeLike
That would be odd. I can’t fathom how it would affect the expansion situation for other BCS conferences. Obviously the Big Ten isn’t going to feel much pressure from some 20 team conference, but I guess I could see it impacting Notre Dame if this leads to another AQ spot but not another BCS bowl.
If it leads to another BCS bowl, then I can’t see much of a change. Maybe it makes recruiting harder for the Pac-10/Big 12.
LikeLike
With 6 current BCS conferences and just 8 BCS slots, why would the BCS conferences give up 1 of their 2 wildcard slots? Hence it looks like at least 1 additional BCS bowl is indeed being given heavy consideration, and would seem to confirm that ESPN is negotiating with the blessing of the BCS and its bowls. Which is what a story a month or two (or three?) ago reported along with that the BCS would probably add a +1 game after the BCS bowls. Of course this doesn’t corroborate the +1 speculation, but gives that report more believability.
Note that a +1 would allow the Rose to guarantee B10+? vs P12 every year. It would also almost certainly evolve into a full blown BCS bowl-based playoff, just as Delany has said it would. +1 is the foot in the door that guarantees a real playoff is coming.
LikeLike
“With 6 current BCS conferences and just 8 BCS slots, why would the BCS conferences give up 1 of their 2 wildcard slots?”
10 BCS spots: Orange, Sugar, Fiesta, & Rose Bowls + BCS championship game makes 5 games.
LikeLike
You’re correct.
I need more sleep.
LikeLike
I hate +1. If you look at the past, it would generate more controversy than picking top 2 before bowls. It could also lead to #1 playing #2 in a bowl and then having to play #3 for the championship.
I prefer the present system to that one. A 4 team playoff using the New Year’s bowls with championship a week later would, however, be an improvement. But it would put a crimp in the B10/P10 Rose Bowl.
LikeLike
@bullet – I used to think the same way about the plus one option, but I’ve definitely come around to it as a reasonable compromise. The plus one allows the traditional bowl matchups to survive with the benefit of giving them all some national title impact again (as opposed to being the glorified consolation prizes that they are now). Unless the Big Ten and Pac-10 champs are ranked #1 and #2 and they play in the Rose Bowl, there’s actually a very low risk of a #1 vs. #2 matchup in the initial set of bowls if the correct selection parameters are put into place. It’s not as clear as a 4-team playoff, but I do think that a plus one is better than what we have now if only that it can provide some better information as to who are the #1 and #2 teams.
LikeLike
My perception is that the bowls frequently don’t show who the best team is due to the long layoff and differing motivations. Think of how many Ohio St. and Michigan squads laid an egg in the Rose Bowl against lower ranked Pac 10 squads.
If its a pure playoff, the motivations are the same. But if 11-0 #1Ohio St. is playing an 8-3 Stanford after a 6 week layoff and looking forward to playing 12-0 #2Florida a lot can happen. The 98 season is the prime example. Those weren’t bowl games, but UCLA and KSU both had a chance on that December weekend and both choked (seems like there was a 3rd team that did the same thing). You can arguably say that shows they weren’t that good, but they all would have played better if matched against each other.
LikeLike
@Frank:
So what happens with a +1 if the only two undefeated teams are, in fact, the undefeated champs of the Big 10 and the Pac 10?
Does that open the door for a much weaker, one-loss #3 team to win the national championship after dispatching a much weaker opponent in its initial bowl game?
LikeLike
And what happens if the #1 and #2 teams are clear (and most likely B10/P10 as you point out), meet each other, and are still #1 and #2? Perhaps #1 and #2 both have 1 loss after their bowl (if old #1 was unbeaten and lost). Do you have a rematch or take a #3 who might have 2 losses?
+1 does have the advantage of making all major bowls potentially relevant and preserving the Rose, but it could make the old no BCS MNCs look non-controversial by comparison.
Compared to the current system, a 4 team playoff makes 2 bowls relevant instead of 1 as now with the only downside that the Rose doesn’t get B10/P10 as frequently. But given the cyclical nature of football powers, will the Big 12 and SEC dominate the next decade again and get 12 of the 20 slots and 7 of 10 championships? Or will the P10/B10 get there more than 5 times and disrupt the Rose that way?
LikeLike
What Hopkins said. You don’t want a plus-one if you don’t need a plus-one. But once you put it in place, it has to be played.
LikeLike
The 10-10=20 model might open the door for FedEx to sponsor the JerryCotton Bowl…
LikeLike
And might make the BEast a dead man walking conference, unless Delany shuts down expansion. When the B10+? starts raiding and other conferences react, a 10+10=20 ESPN conference might be able to absorb more blows and be more attractive to any orphans. Not a given, but the BEast commish has to be sweating, once he looks up from his pasta.
LikeLike
And after he consults with the Providence, St. John’s and Seton Hall people. (We all know who runs the show in that conference.)
LikeLike
Politicians, our economy is literally falling apart. Please, for the love God, focus on something you actually have a Constitutional say in.
LikeLike
As I said long ago, better find a way to satisfy the sentators from the majority of the states, because they can play havoc. Which is why if the BXII were to ever go under, the BCS conferences should figure out a way to take care of Mizzou and Kansas. Senators can easily force their way into this issue, because most of the general public wants a playoff anyway.
LikeLike
That’s actually one of things that bothers me here. The senators are using the non-BCS teams as an excuse to meddle. Few care about whether the system includes them, but rallying against the BCS is popular because so many want a playoff. If the Big Ten, ACC, Big 12, SEC, and PAC-10 agreed to a playoff that included them and only them, 90% of the criticism would end within a couple of years. It would be even less fair to all the conferences left out than the current system, but the senators wouldn’t say a word unless their states team was left out.
LikeLike
but the law suits from the other schools left out would start immediately.
LikeLike
So if ESPN is trying to form some MWC/CUSA super conference, I wonder how the Big Ten/Delany reacts to it. I mean if ESPN was one of the forces behind the Big 12-lite staying alive, then maybe that might have caused some reservation from the Big Ten/Delany to continue expansion (they may not have wanted to deal with any ESPN backlash). But if ESPN now has their hands in forming their own superconference (and maybe even in damaging the WAC), then maybe the Big Ten/Delany says to heck with this hypocrisy we’ll do what is best for us even if ESPN (and whoever else was involved in killing the PAC 16 deal) doesn’t want it. I think this might help ease any concerns that the Big Ten/Delany may have had with the powers that be in college football (if they had any concerns).
LikeLike
BYU didn’t participate in decision to add Nevada, Fresno State:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogs/byusports/50139716-65/byu-conference-state-didn.html.csp
Also, I have a hypothetical question. If the 8 best current non-AQ schools would somehow join together in one conference, would that conference be an automatic qualifier?
Just for fodder, here is the conference:
Boise State (MWC)
BYU (MWC)
TCU (MWC)
Hawaii (WAC)
East Carolina (CUSA)
Central Michigan (MAC)
Troy (Sun Belt)
Fresno State (MWC)
My guess is probably yes. If limit the question to “a conference west of the Mississippi”, you drop CMU, Troy and ECU for Houston (CUSA), Nevada (MWC), and Tulsa (CUSA). I think this conference would also get a berth. (If Hawaii is unavailable, Wyoming (MWC) would be next in).
Basically, if you take the top half of the MWC and the top couple teams from CUSA you can make a BCS conference.
All this leads back to the supposed merger between the MWC and CUSA. My guess is that if it happens, it will be more like my scenario than some 20 team monstrosity. “Merger” or “alliance” usually seems to be a cover for a raid: the Big 8 and SWC were supposedly in merger discussions before the Big 8 raid; the ACC and Big East were supposedly contemplating a joint television deal; the Pac-10 and Big 12 first got together to discuss an alliance, which turned into a raid, which turned into a paper cut.
The underlying problem is that it’s not the top of the MWC that’s keeping it out; it’s the bottom. Fresno State and Nevada are fine as the bottom of a conference, but as middle of the pack (lol) teams they don’t work.
LikeLike
Navy has more wins over BCS schools the last 10 years than any you mention.
LikeLike
They play a lot more than those school too, right? How many good schools have they beat?
LikeLike
I left out Navy because I assume they would want to continue independence. They would be just behind ECU according to this blog:
http://www.bcsevolution.com/posts/archive
LikeLike
a view from TCU
http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/08/19/2414774/mwc-c-usa-talking-about-merged.html
“But if the ultimate prize is a berth in the title game with the Conference USA champion, they don’t need to play all of the other teams every season. Nor would it be really necessary for the MWC to add a 12th team and play a league championship game.”
LikeLike
Pulling out a few more quotes:
“…The conference lives. But where will its champion be playing football in the Januarys to come? The question persists.
That is what Thursday’s meetings in Colorado Springs, Colo., were all about, according to various sources.
Late Thursday night, a source close to the situation said that representatives from the Mountain West and another league — believed to be Conference USA — met in Colorado to discuss a plan to match the two conferences’ champions in a title game, with the winner gaining an automatic BCS berth.
“You’re on the right track,” said the source. “The lawyers have told them [the BCS] that it’s time to give someone else a chance.”
LikeLike
There seems to be a lot of frustrations and impatience all around. BYU and USU and WAC with Fresno & Nevada. MWC schools with BYU. Thompson is looking not like a genius, but an incompetent. He couldn’t keep BYU in line for a few more weeks to see if this works out with a promise of a different deal in 2014 or 15 when their contract renews. As a result, they are trying to fit 23 teams into a model that doesn’t really work with more than 20. Otherwise you need to get rule changes on when you can have a championship game (think they would get any votes from MAC/SunBelt/WAC?). Then again, maybe SDSU/UNLV/WYO are afraid they will be left out. Or maybe the MWC is delusional and thinks they really get autobid on their own.
Sounds like 3D double chess to me.
LikeLike
Also, with all of the discussion of BYUtv, I thought this would be worth sharing:
LikeLike
From the San Francisco Examiner:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/sports/Dickey-Latest-additions-to-Pac-10-Conference-not-all-positive-101138474.html
There seems to be some rumblings that the PAC-10 expansion is not set in stone. Apparently some current and former chancellors have been voicing concerns in a game of email tag with one another. The content of the emails was not made public in the article [FOIA anyone?] but among the concerns listed are:
1) Fear of losing the round robin play and annual rivalry games, especially among the Caly schools.
2) Doubt as to whether TV revenue will actually be increased with the expansion.
3) Academic concerns in Regard to Utah, and to a lesser extent Colorado.
The presidents and chancellor still need to vote on final approval and some are calling for a block of expansion.
Looks like we could be shaping up for a real Cluster-$#@!
cheers-
LikeLike
I was getting quite intrigued by this until I noticed that the only person quoted in the article is a former chancellor.
Oh well.
LikeLike
Good catch with just the former chancellor being quoted. I don’t think they’d get a unanimous approval now (the money isn’t likely to be much better and the northwestern schools aren’t going to want to give up access to UCLA and USC), but frankly it’s too late. The conference invited them and they accepted and the other conferences have plans to move on. It would look really bad to keep them out now on any technicality.
LikeLike
The Big 12 is back in business as the “BIg 12″…with Utah as the new Nebraska.
LikeLike
So what do you think of the UT-UMD series later this decade? As a former DC resident, I’m excited by it.
LikeLike
Just wondering whether UT would back out of it were Maryland to join the Big Ten.
LikeLike
I would imagine the video rights contractually agreed to by UT and MD couldn’t be screwed over by the BTN down the road. 🙂
LikeLike
Young was UCLA chancellor for a 30-year period, 1968-97…Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said.
He’s FOS.
I wonder what the ‘savings’ would be once all the legal costs of canceling the invites come in. Seems like CO and Utah would have good cases for substantial damage claims.
Well, as long as we’re FOS, how about a conspiracy theory? Perhaps TX has communicated that if Bevo TV and exit fee issues are resolved, they are open again to moving. But TX wants to bring their clan and Utah is in one of their parking spaces. (BTW, Bill Byrne again let it be known he worries about Ags in SEC would be another AR and S. Car, so aTm might still go P16. And a MWC-CUSA BCS AQ agreement suggests a possible home for Baylor, which could ease Texas political hurdles.)
LikeLike
Forgot to close my Italians, let’s try again (asking Santa for a preview feature):
Young was UCLA chancellor for a 30-year period, 1968-97…Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said.
He’s FOS.
I wonder what the ‘savings’ would be once all the legal costs of canceling the invites come in. Seems like CO and Utah would have good cases for substantial damage claims.
Well, as long as we’re FOS, how about a conspiracy theory? Perhaps TX has communicated that if Bevo TV and exit fee issues are resolved, they are open again to moving. But TX wants to bring their clan and Utah is in one of their parking spaces. (BTW, Bill Byrne again let it be known he worries about Ags in SEC would be another AR and S. Car, so aTm might still go P16. And a MWC-CUSA BCS AQ agreement suggests a possible home for Baylor, which could ease Texas political hurdles.)
LikeLike
Bill Bryne may understand fundraising, but he doesn’t understand recruiting. South Carolina and Arkansas are at a disadvantage when recruiting against the teams in their divisions; this wouldn’t be the case for A&M.
That said, I would actually be happier to join a Pac 16 now than I would have been 2 months ago. With Colorado and Utah now joined, we would have to leave either Oklahoma State or Texas Tech behind. Still would slightly prefer SEC (or the Big 10, but it seems unlikely).
LikeLike
I would prefer to leave Okie St behind, but would OK politics then force OU out? I’d love that, and just take TX, aTm, TTech, and Baylor to the P16. But apparently TX strongly wants OU. Would the SEC take both OK schools if aTm didn’t join them? I have doubts, but it isn’t completely inconceivable if the ACC schools pretty much hang together.
I’d still prefer TX in the P16 and aTm in the SEC, hopeful that the Ags can do well there. A ranked SEC aTm would help TX’s SOS and take the game to another level.
LikeLike
@Playoffs Now
OU isn’t going anywhere with out OSU. UT isn’t going anywhere with out OU (besides Indy, and I’ve always doubted that). UT and A&M splitting is doubtful.
No other conference wants Missouri or Kansas who are both solid assets in the Big 12.
Why is the idea of the Big IIX staying the way it is, so unacceptable and unimaginable?
LikeLike
@Redhawk:
I raised this on the prior thread, but I think the issue is that too many people have had it beaten into their brains that 12 schools is the ideal number for a conference and have forgotten that a number less than 12 might be ideal, given the realities of geography.
Even if that ideal number less than 12 means foregoing a CCG.
LikeLike
“No other conference wants Missouri or Kansas who are both solid assets in the Big 12.
Why is the idea of the Big IIX staying the way it is, so unacceptable and unimaginable?”
We know from the realignment talks that only UT, OU, and A&M are worth adding on their own to the big conferences, with Missouri apparently about equal to an average member of the Big 10 (wouldn’t add much value to the Big 10, but wouldn’t hurt either). If the other 6 schools brought in more conference money than the average member of the Pac 10, Big 10, or SEC, they would have been pursued separately.
Saying Kansas is valuable to the Big 12 when it isn’t valuable to the Big 10 or Pac 10 is to admit the Big 12 isn’t as valuable as those conferences (at least, not after the first few schools).
The 4 desirable schools are going to get less conference money by associating with the other 6 schools. The Big 10, SEC, and Pac 10 all have a lower percentage of dead weight in their conferences. As Kansas, Iowa, and Oklahoma continue to grow at a slower rate than the West, South, and East this will get comparatively worse (though Texas Tech will likely become more valuable).
Maybe this doesn’t matter as long as UT makes so much more money from local tv revenues that it doesn’t care about conference money. It’s a probably more precarious than UT officials realize; if they gets too insular with this state-wide network and 9 game conference schedule, recruits may look to more national competition in other states (just like at the end of the SWC).
In any event, I’d much prefer my university to have a more interesting schedule with schools who will be more competitive on a national scale. I think it does itself a huge disservice, both athletically and academically, by being so regionalized. Athletics is one of the big ways universities stay in the public eye. Outside of Texas, the Big 12 has states that total 15.5 million people (Missouri has 6 million of that). Regardless of the conference’s academic reputation, I believe being in the SEC would draw more attention to A&M’s academic offerings over time, simply because it will get more attention from people in Florida, Georgia, and Tennessee.
I also think College sports overall would be better served with a clearer tiers. If Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, and Oklahoma State joined the Big East that would be pretty exciting conference, even though it would be a second tier conference.
LikeLike
Yeah there were a lot of credibility issues in that article. I’m certainly not going to claim that CU is on par with UCLA/Cal, but we’re closer to the Washington level then we are to Oregon. Though we did drop slightly in the stupid USNews Rankings which are undergrad focused, speculation is this is because the recent tuition hikes have reduced the number of applicants, thus dropping us a bit in the “exclusivity” formula they use to calculate the number of students rejected from the number that apply. Higher Ed funding is a mess in CO.
LikeLike
I’ve seen this type of attitude before (as portrayed in the article)….from Tom Hansen. I don’t want to go down that road again.
LikeLike
More on Temple to CUSA:
http://templefootballforever.blogspot.com/2010/08/breaking-news-temple-to-join-cusa.html
“an assistant AD at Rice adding the “exciting news” coming later today that Temple and one other school will join Conference USA for football only, effective starting in the 2011 season”
loki, any idea who the “assistant AD” is? I can’t seem to find the original quote from him.
Also, any guesses on the other school? Troy?
LikeLike
Seems inconsistent with the idea of a super middle conference.
LikeLike
Perhaps it is more about the MWC and CUSA somewhat strengthening themselves and reducing travel while creating a play-in game for a BCS berth. Hence TCU and Temple to CUSA makes some sense, TCU gets a more local division and if they are going to have to go through a play-in game to the BCS, it might be an easier route through CUSA than a MWC that still has Boise and probably BYU. Better to be eliminated in the nationally televised December BCS play-in game than mid-season.
I think what happened is that the WAC and BYU tried to pull a fast one on the MWC. In desperation the MWC approached the BCS via ESPN (following up years of negotiation over the AQ) and the BCS said we’ll give you access to an AQ but either you create a bigger conference that swallows virtually all possible BCS buster schools or go through a play-in qualifying game. This lets the BCS limit the gatecrashers to just one instead of possibly two. Not ideal for MWC, but since getting their own AQ was pretty much dead, those 2 options were the best they could do. So the MWC countered by proposing the play-in would be only between the MWC and CUSA. Negotiations ongoing on various scenarios.
LikeLike
UNT with its new stadium and proximity to the DFW market?
LikeLike
I know nothing about North Texas and their future plans, but over the last 5 years they have the worst record of any FBS team over the last 5 years while playing in the worst FBS conference. 3 of those wins came over formerly FCS Western Kentucky, the team Northwestern fans are hoping/dreading breaks the consecutive loss record.
I can’t see how anyone would be excited about them.
LikeLike
I can’t see how anyone would be excited about them.
Can’t the same be said about any potential target out there?
LikeLike
These things can be cyclical. North Texas is one of the largest universities in Texas (36,000 students) and was an absolutely dominant football program in the Sun Belt in the early to mid-90’s with five straight conference championships. It can be dominant again, particularly with the new stadium. Issue for the WAC is that without Nevada, Fresno State and Boise State, it is virtually indistinguishable from the Sun Belt in terms of conference football strength or appeal. Do not really see why North Texas would want to jump from the Sun Belt to the WAC at this point since one main effect would be an increase in travel costs. A merger of the two conferences would be more to the point, you’d essentially wind up with a south/west equivalent of the MAC.
LikeLike
Or, focusing on the “football only” part, would there be any incentive for Army or Navy to join up with the C-USA? (I know it would be “rejoining” in the case of Army.)
LikeLike
From what I understand, Army didn’t think being in a conference suited them (which is why they left) and Navy thinks they would have a similar experience.
LikeLike
If more teams decided to jump from the sinking WAC, both New Mexico State and Louisiana Tech would make geographic sense for the western division. NM State would give UTEP a close school; LATech would be right in the middle of a lot of schools in that conference.
Of course, the WAC president has told us that all the current schools have pledged to stay together; but they apparently said that last week as well.
LikeLike
this gives no main stream media source. It would also go against the C-USA/MWC 10×10 merger/alliance set up.
Temple would also be a pretty extreme outlier.
LikeLike
Actually, the “exciting news” from the Rice assistant AD was the announcement that we now have a coach’s show on Fox Sports Network. Not that big a deal but, for Rice, a nice uptick in our visibility.
LikeLike
Don’t be surprised if the other school is Akron. I was told by someone in their athletic department that they wanted to move to C-USA. They thought the Big Ten would raid the BE. Which meant the BE would raid C-USA and open a spot for them. Since none of that happened they might have decided about jumping anyway.
LikeLike
@MAC Country – That’s weird. What’s the point for Akron to do that? The MAC is so Ohio-centric and they would be a complete outlier in C-USA.
LikeLike
Earlier I posted that word from the Michigan side was saying there could be a split of Michigan and OSU in the new divisions and that Michigan would want to be with PSU in one of the new divisions. Well…here’s some more from Dave Brandon, our AD, on Twitter:
“…distinct possibility.. game will be a later game in the season…not necessarily the last game of the season.’
and
“I’m just warning everybody, change is good and change is going to happen.”
I really, really hope that isn’t a sign that the OSU/UM split is a done deal.
LikeLike
I hope they understand the impact this will have. I can say I’ve had a lot of issues with Ohio State over the years (wasting money while tuition rises a lot for one), but I’ve generally ignored them. This will push me too far. I love the team for state pride. I won’t to give the university another dime though.
LikeLike
Michigan’s AD sure sounds like Michigan and OSU will be in separate divisions.
http://detnews.com/article/20100820/SPORTS0201/8200418/Dave-Brandon-anticipates-U-M–OSU-in-separate-divisions
It certainly appears Michigan and Ohio State will be in separate divisions in the Big Ten, and the annual rivalry game will move from its traditional spot as the last regular-season game.
Michigan athletic director Dave Brandon, appearing Friday morning on WTKA 1050 AM, was asked by host Sam Webb if he thinks the rivals will be in the same division, when the breakdown is revealed, more than likely within the next month.
Brandon answered after a long pause.
“No,” Brandon said.
LikeLike
Even as an Iowa fan, I’m depressed at them farking over the best rivalry in the league. They’re giving up a bird in hand in hopes of two in the bush, and will end up with neither.
LikeLike
Adding Nebraska to the Big Ten is a good change.
Damaging Michigan-Ohio State is a bad change. Once a year makes it special. Twice a year, however rarely, renders the first game meaningless. Sometimes less is more. Christmas in July does not equal Christmas in December. There is no reason for it to be necessary to accomodate the addition of Nebraska.
They think a possible UM-OSU rematch is bigger than one of them vs. Penn State or Nebraska? I was a KISS advocate, but I never thought they would split UM and OSU. I am getting angry.
LikeLike
I should say if they aren’t going East-West, I never thought they would go with the worst case scenario and attack the greatest rivalry.
LikeLike
I agree entirely, but nothing will change unless we speak out!
LikeLike
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13730580/division-of-big-tens-super-rivals-would-be-addition-for-all?tag=coverlist_active;coverlist_footer
A article about divisional placement that illustrates the alpha apes in charge are completely out of touch.
Some of the more nauseating quotes:
“Ohio State and Michigan must be separated when the Big Ten ADs divide the league into two six-team divisions”
” The second game would be bigger, Big Ten Network president Mark Silverman said, just talking ratings. As a TV person, it is one of the highest, if not the highest regular-season games out there. I don’t think having a second one would impact the TV ratings. In other words, the nation can’t get enough.”
“No one, though, seems to see my logic. They are hung up on increasingly meaningless stuff like travel and state lines and tradition”
“Three “power” teams are in each division — Ohio State, Wisconsin, Penn State in the East and Michigan, Iowa and Nebraska in the West.”
If everyone agrees that the 6 “power teams are Ohio State, Wisconsin, Penn State, Michigan, Iowa and Nebraska why the hell do we have to get clever and cute with the place a straight east west split still has 3 “power teams” in each division, but know all the rivals are in the same divisions.
This guy not only wants to split Ohio State and Michigan, in his setup he ripped apart the Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota for some reason?
To quote Charlie Wilson:
“These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world…
…and then we fucked up the end game.”
LikeLike
I honestly think that the UM/OSU ADs might be being overrun on this one. Our AD, Brandon, has now repeatedly said that he only has 1/12 of the vote. Now, he’s a business man (former Domino’s CEO), so I think he’s going to voice, at least during the discussions, favor for whatever the likely decision is. After a decision is made, I think we might see his real thoughts.
I could be wrong. He could be totally in favor of this, but you usually don’t go publicly voicing internal discontent during negotiations in business, which is what the Big Ten has become. I just find it odd he’s made repeated mention of his vote share.
LikeLike
Here’s something else to think about. Let’s say UM/OSU are being overrun in this vote and the split is inevitable. The priority for these ADs then becomes the best possible divisional alignment.
Right now, many have said that a West division would include Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Nebraska. If Michigan was placed there (most likely with MSU), the East would be PSU, OSU, Illinois, Purdue, Northwestern, Indiana.
Wow. Those two divisions are completely imbalanced. I think, if that split is a risk, Dave Brandon’s priority right now is preventing that from happening. If he goes complaining in interviews, I think he loses much of his ability to do that.
LikeLike
If they are actually being overrun (I sadly not convinced they aren’t on board), that seems kind of risky to me. The conference has always been one where everyone works closely together, equal revenue sharing etc. If you seriously cause damage to the Ohio State and Michigan athletic departments though (say through fewer donations), that might for the first time, push up a few demands. I don’t want that, but it’s not an impossible outcome.
LikeLike
I find it extremely hard to believe that the rest of the conference is forcing OSU/UM to split divisions against their will. If a split occurs, OSU/UM are on board. Maybe not specific people within either institution (ADs), but the main PTB were (presidents, chancellor, provost, etc.).
It is starting to appear that the B10 is whoring itself out for money. I hope we’re all wrong and it results in rainbows and lollipops.
LikeLike
Sadly I agree. If the OSU-Michigan game is moved, I think the schools will both have agreed, maybe a bit reluctantly, but I think they will be onboard.
LikeLike
I just don’t get it. Where are all the people who were so up in arms about us hiring a non Michigan Man.
God I’ve been attending Michigan for three years, and all I ever hear is moaning about tradition and never letting it go. What the hell happened?
LikeLike
The only thing to do is to be a pain in the ass. If enough people are a pain in the ass, maybe they rethink this. That’s all I can think of.
LikeLike
One thing I can kind of understand is trying to maximize the championship game. How much the regular season contract can be changed now is uncertain. They want to maximize the championship game because it’s the one thing they can sell completely on the open market. It’s short sighted, but I can see it.
LikeLike
Makes no sense. Why is the Big Ten suddenly so obsessed with maximizing anything? That isn’t how we do business. An integral component of the Big Ten’s brand value is that we don’t chase that crap. We’re better than that.
LikeLike
No offense man, but how naive are you?
I love my PSU, but I know they’ve always been about the bottom line first and foremost. I have a feeling the rest of the Big Ten feels this type of mentality is another one of the “right ways of doing things”.
In a way its kind of assuring I guess, since I can bank on the “prestige” my diploma has will never go down.
LikeLike
Bullshit. For the last almost 20 years, OSU has had guaranteed games against Michigan and PSU, two of the best teams in the league. PSU has has guaranteed games against OSU (really good) and MSU (middle class). Wisconsin has had guaranteed games against Iowa (pretty good) and Minnesota (crappy). And on and on. The protected rivalries were totally unconcerned with balance and all about maximizing traditional rivalries — even if that meant that the good teams were guaranteed to play other good teams, not some “balanced” mix of good and bad teams. If you had a tough schedule one year, that’s how the cookie crumbled: rise above it, play through it, and win the games that are on your schedule.
For 20 years the Big Ten sat on 11 members, even though 12 would likely have been more profitable and offered greater exposure. For decades the Big Ten has stood in the way of a playoff (which would almost certainly be more profitable than the bowl system) because they want to preserve the tradition of the Rose Bowl. The Big Ten has staunchly stood against playing weeknight games, even though that would allow for more nationally televised appearances. I am not naive; the Big Ten has consciously foregone many different profit centers in order to do things the Big Ten Way. Now all of a sudden they’re willing to piss all of that away to chase a couple of TV dollars, when what they fail to understand is that by chasing that they’re alienating the people who want the Big Ten to be above chasing that. The Big Ten doesn’t need to chase TV; TV will come to us, because there’s high demand for Big Ten product.
Booster was right: once you let the financial people be in charge of the product, they ruin the product. And I’ll be damned if I’ll have anybody suggest that I’m naive for taking this position.
LikeLike
“or decades the Big Ten has stood in the way of a playoff (which would almost certainly be more profitable than the bowl system) because they want to preserve the tradition of the Rose Bowl”
I disagree strongly. The bowl system greatly enhances the value of the regular season of college football. If they made a playoff, they might make more money from the playoff games than they would from the bowls, but the value of the regular season would drop. College football would likely make less money overall and the bigger conferences would be hit relatively harder, as second tier conferences would have their members pushed into the playoff system.
Reporters try to tell you that playoffs would make more money, but they don’t think very hard about this sort of thing. You have to remember that the chief reason they like playoffs is because they don’t have to think at all about the results: Team who wins=greatest team ever! Team who didn’t win=losers! Reporter doesn’t have to consider anything that happened in the previous week, much less any game played in October!
LikeLike
If you have a 96 team playoff it devalues the regular season-see NBA, NHL, NCAA basketball. A reasonable number, <15%, of teams does not.
LikeLike
“If you have a 96 team playoff it devalues the regular season-see NBA, NHL, NCAA basketball. A reasonable number, <15%, of teams does not."
Again, I strongly, strongly disagree with that. To begin with, 15% of FBS is 18 schools!
Even at 4 schools you are starting to weaken the regular season. There would be far less reason for fans from the Big 10 to pay attention to the SEC, and vice versa. Non-conference games and even sometimes cross-divisional games for teams in the top conferences would take on a lesser importance, as winning a conference championship often will be enough to get you a place. There would also be cases where teams can essentially take the last regular week of the season off, because they know they'll be ranked in the top 4 if they win their conference championship game, regardless of what they do the week before. All of this will lead to a drop in ratings, and perhaps less demand for tickets. Not huge, but more than the extra revenue the playoffs would bring.
Playoffs bring a completely different mentality, both for the players and the fans. I expect casual fans, who might watch bits throughout the year, would likely start watching less before the playoffs. Passionate fans will start to watch less games that don't involve their team or conference. And while the lesser bowls might be OK with a +2, I think they'd start to lose appeal with a 3 or 4 round playoff. That would be more losses for the schools. As the other bowls become even less acceptable once a playoff starts, I think the fans will get upset with their current coach/administrator even quicker, which could lead to some drop offs in donations.
And all of that ignores the ethical question: is it a good idea to add a game to 18-22 year olds who already may play 14 games a year? If you tell me they can play another game with no significant long-term health consequences, I'd prefer adding another regular season game for every school than a playoff game for two schools.
LikeLike
Dodd’s plan is amazingly bad. It would be hard to come up with a dumber plan.
He not only splits up OSU-UM, he also splits up IU and PU, and NW and Ill. Finally he splits Iowa and Neb from Wis and Minnesota.
After years of saying that a championship game wasn’t all that important, and even hinting they might not even have a championship game/divisions if they expanded, they now want to put championship game $/ratings above all other considerations. Fricking amazing.
LikeLike
Ditto! Instead of KISS, which is logical and safe, they eff it up from the beginning! Why not wait until you’ve finalized expansion plans for the short term(within five years) and then, gerrymander the league for football. Selling their soul for a possible Michigan-Ohio State rematch seems ludicrous. If this goes down, I will be rooting for Iowa and Wisconsin(no slight intended) to play in the inaugural ‘We’re Effing Stupid’ championship game! Willarm1 has been silent recently. It must be because he is delirious with joy!
LikeLike
Seems like the ‘zipper’ divisions that Alan from Baton Rouge suggested yesterday.
LikeLike
That’s an excellent point. All along they’ve been hinting that a CCG is not the be-all and end-all, and it was totally consistent with the Big Ten ethos of not just diving for every last penny you can squeeze out of your contracts, and now, suddenly, they’re willing to rip apart the rivalries that make college sports fantastic because they think they can make a few extra bucks.
LikeLike
I have to admit, if this goes through I just don’t se any further expansion happening.
I mean with this kind of I just couldn’t see how a Rutgers, Pitt, MD, Cuse, etc would fit.
LikeLike
Alright, now we’re getting somewhere!
Keep an eye on the Big East for football expansion next about 2 hours ago via MogoTXT
LikeLike
This begs the question.
Mark May is a reporter/analyst for ESPN.
If he knows something, shouldn’t be be breaking the story rather than merely teasing that he knows something that we don’t?
LikeLike
A different headline triggered a thought.
What about BYU being a fb only member of BE? Makes no sense geographically, but they are far and away the strongest non autobid program.
If ND had any sense and truly didn’t want to join B10, they would have the BE fb schools secede, do a 12 team league with divisions and they would only be required to play their 5 division games and maybe 1 against the other division, leaving 6 or 7 for their “national” schedule. They could keep their TV contract. You could have the 8 BE, ND, BYU and 2 out of Memphis/UCF/ECU/UH/TCU/Navy/Army/AF. If you add the 3 service academies, you wouldn’t even need to leave the BE. You could have them and BYU as fb only.
LikeLike
I saw someone on another board suggest the same thing. Really in a lot of ways, it would make a ton of sense. BYU gets in a BCS conference, the Big East gets to expand with a name brand school. BYU can still put its non-revenue sports in another conference (plans to anyway) and the Big East doesn’t have to worry about adding a full member and upsetting the delicate football/non-football school balance.
Big issues are there of course too. BYU wouldn’t be playing in highly Mormon areas and the Big East is going to have a hard time being labeled the northeast’s conference (something they want), when they have a team in Utah.
LikeLike
I just don’t see how adding a team like Memphis or UCF or Temple helps stengthen the Big East enough to deter the Big Ten from raiding them. If anything, a Big East expansion along with the MWC expansion and if the MWC & CUSA merge, almost seems to encourage the Big Ten to go ahead and expand further (more blood in the college football water).
LikeLike
Well we know it can’t be the Big East doing something proactive so it must be a raid on the Big East. Maybe the MWC success at destroying the WAC has invigorated the Big Ten.
LikeLike
This sure clears things up:
http://conferenceusa.cstv.com/genrel/082010aab.html
Official Conference USA Statement on Talks with Mountain West Conference
Commissioner Britton Banowsky issues official statement
Aug. 20, 2010
IRVING, Texas – Following up on various media reports, Conference USA and Mountain West representatives met yesterday, a meeting that had been previously scheduled. C-USA Commissioner Britton Banowsky issued the following statement:
“The conferences have much in common and have worked cooperatively for many years and we are exploring creative ways to work together going forward. The discussion included scheduling, television, and post-season football. It is premature for anyone to suggest anything else at this point. We have the strong support of our members as we work on a variety of strategic initiatives. We had a good discussion yesterday and likely will have more in the future.”
LikeLike
http://dennis-dodd.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/24009504
CUSA and MWC discuss BCS play-in game
(Excerpts)
…The source stressed the preliminary nature of the talks.
No information has been submitted to BCS officials from the two leagues. In fact, 2010 begins a new four-year cycle for the BCS. One source termed the agreement “locked in”. That would mean the soonest anything could be in place is at the end of the 2014 season.
“The conferences have agreed to this format for the next four years,” BCS executive director Bill Hancock said…
…The subject of a BCS bowl play-in game among non-BCS leagues has been discussed informally in the past. Conference USA and the MWC would have to get approval from the other nine Division I-A conferences. One potential roadblock: The three other non-BCS leagues (MAC, WAC, Sun Belt) probably would have an issue with those two conferences playing for a BCS bowl instead of them. The WAC probably isn’t on the best terms with the MWC right now. Plus, the WAC has placed teams in BCS bowls three times (winning twice) since 2007.
This would not be a merger between Conference USA and the MWC, but a play-in game to advance to the BCS after both leagues decided their conference champions. Conference USA already stages a conference championship game. The Mountain West is in a state of flux as BYU decides if it wants to leave the league and play as an independent in football. Fresno State and Nevada accepted invitations to join the MWC this week, supposedly beginning in 2012. Since it’s not certain how many members the MWC will have going forward, it’s not certain if it will attempt to stage a conference championship game of its own.
A play-in game could mean at least one of those leagues would be playing 15 games in a season, counting a conference title game, BCS play-in game and bowl game…
LikeLike
@Playoffs Now – I find it strange that C-USA is in the conversation for this play-in game when you could argue that even the depleted WAC has just as strong of a case for inclusion. The MWC is clearly the best of the non-AQ conferences, but I don’t see how anyone else has separated themselves at all.
If there was to be a play-in game, it ought to simply pit the 2 highest ranked non-AQ conference champs against each other and not just limit it to the MWC and C-USA.
LikeLike
The remaining “good” programs from WAC/C-USA merge then have a championship game with the MWC which then goes to the BCS?
The left over’s form a single non-BCS AQ conference and consolidate with the other “lower tier” football conferences?
LikeLike
If there was to be a play-in game, it ought to simply pit the 2 highest ranked non-AQ conference champs against each other and not just limit it to the MWC and C-USA.
I would think that would be the BCS’s preference. But perhaps the MWC is using the threat of lawsuits and congressional hassles and countering with the MWC-CUSA proposal to wrangle the MWC a stronger position for itself, and more importantly to lure BYU back in. The MWC is still in a precarious position and could effectively be killed tomorrow if the expansion winds blow the wrong way. Why would the BCS go along with the MWC proposal? Perhaps the MWC and CUSA have ESPN on their side. I dunno.
LikeLike
Adam Rittenberg “Momentum builds for Michigan-OSU split”
http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/14767/momentum-builds-for-michigan-osu-split
speculates divisions
West
Nebraska
Iowa
Wisconsin
Michigan
Michigan State
Minnesota
East
Penn State
Ohio State
Purdue
Indiana
Illinois
Northwestern
pardon me while I go throw up.
LikeLike
That setup is less competitively balanced than the KISS East/West split but it does preserve most rivalries. As an Iowa fan, I am most concerned about having Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota and Wisconsin in the same division. I am largely indifferent whether you add some combination of MI/MSU, IL/NW, PSU/IL/NW to that combination.
The team I most feel sorry for would be Minnesota as they would have a brutal time ever making it to the CCG with 5 of the Top 7 programs in their division.
LikeLike
If they are going to split MI and OSU, that plan may make the most sense. NE-MN-IA-WI is good geography, the Mich, Ill, and Ind pairs aren’t split, and 4 of the 5 schools most likely to dwell at the bottom probably have a better shot at winning their division than in any other combo. Beat 1 of OSU and PSU when both are somewhat down (or lose key players to injury) and you could see Pur, IL, or NW in the title game. The 2 best programs in the east and #3-6 in the west somewhat balances out, and you still have several cross division games to level the field.
LikeLike
Plus the more Little Brown Jugs the better.
LikeLike
@Playoffs Now – Yeah, I’m semi-OK with that division split (probably better to call it North/South) IF Michigan and Ohio State are split (which I maintain would be a colossal mistake). If there are 2 protected rivalries under a 9-game conference schedule, it provides even further flexibility. It’s probably the best of the batch of bad ideas.
LikeLike
I think that split is awful. I don’t even know what the Big Ten would claim as its reasoning for that setup. Clearly it isn’t traditional rivalries, as the single biggest set is split up. The Big Ten can’t claim its competitive balance over the past 17 years either, as 4 of the top 6 teams are on one side.
The Big Ten has said geography is its last concern, so I can’t imagine that argument either. I can’t see this split happening. It completely disregards the one thing the Big Ten has consistently gone back to: competitive balance over the past 17 years.
LikeLike
@Ross Hatton – Whether right or wrong, it appears that “competitive balance” really means the “Big 4” of Michigan, Ohio State, Penn State and Nebraska being split up evenly as opposed to the top 6. So, even though the East/West split is actually more balanced top-to-bottom than this North/South proposal based on records over the past 2 decades, the perception is driven by the distribution of the marquee teams. I don’t really agree with that argument, but it seems like the Big 4 are who really matter to the powers that be (conference leadership, schools that want to maximize dates with the Big 4, and especially the TV networks).
LikeLike
Yeah I understand, I just can’t see how Michigan’s leadership would be content with such a setup. Things are tough enough right now, as if this helps.
Only way I really see this as acceptable is if 9 games is guaranteed at this point.
LikeLike