Frank the Tank’s BlogPoll Week 5 Ballot, Football Parlay and Open Thread – 10/1/2010


I’m still swamped these days, but I promise that I’ll have some new views on the latest conference realignment-related stories soon.  In the meantime, for an old post that seems to be relevant again, here are my in-depth thoughts from back in February on why the Big East ought to go after TCU.  Here are this week’s parlay picks for both college football and the NFL with my obligatory Illini and Bears choices (home teams in CAPS and odds from bodog via Yahoo!):


  • ILLINOIS (+17) over Ohio State
  • NORTH CAROLINA STATE (+4) over Virginia Tech
  • BOSTON COLLEGE (+3) over Notre Dame

Frank the Tank’s College Football Parlay Record
Last Week: 1-2

Illini Games for the Season: 1-1
Overall Season: 4-7-1


  • TITANS (-6.5) over Broncos
  • Redskins (+6) over EAGLES
  • Bears (+4) over GIANTS

Frank the Tank’s NFL Football Parlay Record
Last Week: 1-2

Bears Games for the Season: 1-2
Overall Season: 4-5

Once again, feel free to use this post as an open thread for the weekend’s games and non-expansion college sports news.  If you want to talk about conference realignment in general, please continue the discussion on the Big Ten Division-palooza post.  Have a great weekend!

(Follow Frank the Tank’s Slant on Twitter @frankthetank111)


206 thoughts on “Frank the Tank’s BlogPoll Week 5 Ballot, Football Parlay and Open Thread – 10/1/2010

  1. Playoffs Now

    Should I say Hawkeyes #1?

    Anyway, this email needs to be carried over and reposted because it touches on so many integral issues:

    Fascinating email from the Montana AD that touches on many topics facing college football. Especially interesting that FCS may collapse and how clueless zealous idealogues in the Obama Admin may kill some football programs through Title IX insanity. So typical.


    Jim O’Day wrote:Tony,

    I understand your concerns – you are not alone. This is, perhaps, the most critical decision to ever face the intercollegiate athletic program at The University of Montana.

    With state funding flat and student athletic fees holding tight, and with expenses growing year-by-year at a steady pace (at least $250,000 per year alone in just scholarship costs and related room/board costs for out student-athletes), we find ourselves at a cross roads. With revenues presently capped at about $13 million per year, we are having to find ways to cut expenses… and one option may have to be scholarships to out-of-state student athletes if we cannot find new revenue sources. We realize this could hurt our competitiveness as we cannot just take out of certain non-revenue generating sports because of Title IX issues. In addition, our insurance continues to rise, as does rent and travel. We can assume our expenses will jump at least $500,000 annually… and really no new revenue to meet these increases. We have continued to cut our expenses about $250,000 or more per year for the past three years…. But now we are down to the bare bone. Any further cuts will affect programs. You can see that already — our entire budget for recruiting for all 14 sports is $178,000; at Montana State it’s $408,000 per the recently released NCAA audit numbers.

    Currently, we charge the highest prices at the Football Championship Subdivision level for football tickets. How much more can we ask of our fans to try and keep us competitive (there are no guarantees). We generate about $4.2 million in football tickets right now…. Twice the $2.1 million brought in by Appalachian State at No. 2 amongst FCS schools. By comparison, Montana State brings in about $1.2 million per year – Washington State at $3.8 million – and Idaho at $900,000. To stay with us, MSU is making up the difference with institutional support and student athletic fees (MSU is at $144/student/year; UM is $72/student/year; the UM and MSU athletic budgets are almost identical – yet the expense lines vary because of our private funding successes). Student-athletic fees vary across the country. At James Madison, they are $1,400 per student per year. Old Dominion and Appalachian State are about $700 per student/year; while the average in the Big Sky Conference is $200/student/year. Note: Northern Arizona does not yet pay a student-athletic fee. Instead, they get the same state appropriation as Arizona and Arizona State – or about $8 million per year. On the other end of the spectrum, Sac State receives little institutional support, yet the student-athletic fee is about $265/student/year — and generates almost $9 million for the athletics department.

    Here’s an estimated breakdown of how we produce our revenues….

    Football tickets $4,200,000 (MSU – $1.2 million)

    Institutional support $4,500,000 (MSU – $6.7 million)

    Grizzly Scholarship Association $1,500,000 (MSU – $1 million)

    Student Fees $1,000,000 (MSU – $1.8 million)

    Corporate/Grizzly Sports Prop. $ 650,000 (MSU – $350,00)

    Men’s basketball $ 400,000 (MSU – $200,000)

    Women’s basketball $ 350,000 (MSU – $50,000)

    Game guarantees $ 150,000 (MSU – $800,000)

    NCAA monies $ 300,000 (MSU – $300,000)

    Big Sky Conference $ 125,000 (MSU – $125,000)

    Television $ 75,000 (MSU – $65,000)

    CLC $ 20,000 (MSU – $160,000)

    Now we face the ever-mounting challenge of how to produce more revenue?

    At the same time, we also have Title IX issues that Montana State does not have. UM has a 54% female population; Montana State is 54% male. We have a 40% female to male student-athlete ratio (we need to be at 54% or close – or spend 54% of our funding on female sports – neither of which is possible with football. Montana State is just the opposite as it needs a ratio of about 54% male, or 54% spending on male sports… thus, not an issue to them). We are struggling with the third and final prong for Title IX compliance, which is currently under heavier scrutiny based on recent Obama Administration interpretation. We will most likely need to add two female sports shortly or face possibly penalty. Those penalties do not affect the athletic programs – but schools in general as their federal funds/grants/research dollars can be impacted – or about $150 million annually at UM that could be at risk. Thus, somehow, we need to find about $2 million more per year (not counting facilities) to run two new programs. Thus, we most likely will need higher student fees to meet these Title IX and related expenses. Doubt it any of this money would help any other concerns (maintaining football funding, facility improvements, etc.). Also, additional institutional support is out of the question…. It is so tight right now.

    Looking at our present revenue structure, one way to increase funding is to consider a move to the Football Bowl Subdivision (NCAA revenues, game guarantees, television, conference dollars and corporate dollars are significantly higher. For example, Idaho receives almost $2.5 million in league revenues, and another $500,000 in television revenues) – but this is not a “for sure” situation either. Instead, it might be considered a gamble – maybe not necessarily a risk. Could we lose fans in the stands? Absolutely. Could we right now if we went 6-5 or less? Absolutely. Would fans continue to come if we charge high prices for Western States of Colorado, or maybe even Montana Tech? Who knows. Will they come if our schedule consists of Idaho, Utah State, Hawaii, San Jose State… and non-conference games against schools such as Boise State, Nevada, Wyoming and Washington State? Possibly. Note: Wyoming is hosting Nebraska next year. In exchange, they will travel to Nebraska in 2012 and 2013. In 2013, Nebraska will pay Wyoming $1 million for making the trip. Last year, Wyoming hosted Texas as part of a home-and-home contract. Those are not available to us now. In fact, WAC or Mountain West schools are no longer allowed to play at FCS schools via by-law changes. They also are recommending they don’t play ANY FCS school – home or away. That begs the question: Who do Montana fans want to see in the next 2-10 years in Washington-Grizzly Stadium. At the FCS level, there are fewer and fewer out there who will come here.

    Couple other things to realize:

    — Both the Big Sky Conference and the WAC NEED Montana. Where ever we end, that conference will most likely survive at a higher level. The commissioners of both conferences know that, as do the schools (although some at the Big Sky level would hate to admit it).

    — Montana is THE school west of the Mississippi in the FCS – and the only one since Boise in 1994 to make the championship game (which the Broncos lost). The Big Sky losing Montana would be devastating to some as they need the traveling Montana fans to attend their contests, and purchase tickets. We are also responsible for the television dollars associated with each of the league schools. For example, KPAX/MTN bid $100,000 to television the Griz-Cat game, the next highest bidder was Max Media at $20,000. Our other games were bid at $10,000 each by KPAX; Max Media pays $2,500 to do Bobcat telecasts. Thus, Max Media is spending more money in production equipment; while the schools are getting the cash from KPAX. By league policy, 60% of the revenue from these telecasts go to the HOME team (not UM), 35% to the visitor and 5% to the league. So how out-of-line is this: Last year, MSU received $60,000 of KPAX’s bid (to do UM games), while Montana received $35,000 and the conference $5,000. These are the reasons why Boise State left the Big Sky in the mid-1990s; why BYU and Texas are doing what they’re doing right now. They want to control their television money. The television money should be following UM, but we get outvoted on this 8-1 whenever it comes up.

    — Football at UM breaks even. We generate $6.5 in revenues; and the expenses associated with football at $6.5. Thus, others are probably losing $3-$4.5 million annually. How long can that continue at some schools?

    — We are struggling to find opponents to play in Missoula…. Cost is high, plus we win 93% of our games here. People do not like to come here. Even Division II schools are asking “guarantees” in excess of $125,000 to come here. That cuts drastically into our revenues.

    — We are NOT guaranteed home playoff games. We have been extremely fortunate in the past. To put in perspective, we made about $100,000 for the three home playoff games last year – and sent another $1.1 million to the NCAA. A regular season home game nets between $400,000 and $1 million (Montana State, App State, etc.). Being in the WAC, we are allowed 12 games instead of 11 – and 13 when you play at Hawaii. So instead of $100,000 at max, we would be seeing additional dollars… at a minimum of $300,000.

    — The FCS playoff system is hurting financially. We produced $1.1 million of last year’s budget of $2.5 million. The other 11 games produced less than $1 million TOTAL. The NCAA lost almost $500,000 again, and it will not continue to tolerate to follow this plan. Now we’ve added another round and four more teams…. Being on the committee, and as chair, I know this is a major concern to the NCAA – and a last-gasp reason for changing to Frisco, Texas, in hopes of attracting more attention and support. It won’t help to move the championship back three weeks into January – let alone that it will be taking place 40 minutes away from the Cotton Bowl, which has also been moved to that night. So much for FCS exposure on national television. Just to keep the student-athletes on campus during Christmas will also cost the two schools in the championship an additional $100,000 – none of which is budgeted. And to put in perspective, we LOST $150,000 each of the past two year going to the championship game. Had we won, the incentives for coaches would have put the losses over $200,000 each time. We get no additional revenue for any of this.

    — AND OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE: We are NOT considering the health and welfare of the student-athletes, who are having to spend at least one month of playing 4-5 more games — which is permanently damaging their bodies – and hurting their academics. This is not fair to them – nor their coaches. This is where all of us are selfish, and want the playoff system vs. a bowl. At the FBS level, there is a month off to recover bodies, take care of academics and finals, and at the end, a reward of a bowl and some fun — and the schools don’t lose money like we do at the FCS level.

    History will determine if the decision by the new President (Royce Engstrom) to either remain where we are, or take a new direction, was correct. There are no easy answers. Heck, had we gone to the WAC a few years ago, we’d probably be in a much more lucrative Mountain West Conference right now with schools we consider on academic par – Wyoming, Colorado State, etc. Who knows what will happen. I would venture to say there are only about four conferences right now who appear to be solid and control their own destiny — the SEC, the Big 10, the Big 12 (unless Texas and Oklahoma do an “about face” in the next few years) and the Pac 12 Even the ACC and the Big East have issues, let alone those like Conference USA. The Mountain West is starting to look more like the old WAC (especially if TCU bolts, which is likely). Could that mean a merger of the Mountain West and WAC down the road…. Again. This could be a distinct possibility. That being said, where does that leave the Big Sky? Should the FCS fail – which is another possibility, especially with Appalachian State, James Madison, Villanova, Delaware, Georgia Southern, Richmond and others being considered for moves into other conference alliances within FBS conferences – would we be all alone? How many schools in the Big Sky would still be offering football, or would we become a basketball conference? Would it even be Division I, or would we be forced out to Division II? If you don’t have an invitation from a Division I conference, you may have no choice. This may be the only opportunity UM gets to be “invited” to a true Division I conference.

    As you can see, there are no easy answers – and it is very, very complicated. These points and many others will be presented — and have been closely reviewed and monitored by our national consultants — who do these independent studies for schools for a living. Other responsible schools are doing the same, as are conferences. They give you the most accurate, up-to-date information available.

    Finally, I will end this long message with an interesting observation by the consultants.

    In asking faculty and deans who are their “peers,” they mentioned schools such as Idaho, Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State, Nevada, Wyoming, Colorado and Colorado State. The consultants asked why no Big Sky schools – with the exception of Montana State for “tied in” reasons,” the faculty responded they do not see the Idaho States, Eastern Washingtons, Northern Colorados, etc., as “peer academic institutions.” Au contraire, the consultants’ studies show: “You are who you hang out with.” This is true across the board in life — and here as well. Thus, this is extremely important to consider as well as we move forward.

    Right now, we have a heavy saturation of Montana students attending UM (1,500 more Montana residents now attend UM than MSU – hard to believe… a complete turn-around from 10-15 years ago). But, census reports show the numbers of Montana high school graduates spiraling downward rapidly. Each Montana student costs UM about $2,300… a loss-leader for us in the business world. Thus, they need higher tuition being paid by out-of-state students to make up the difference. That out-of-state market is becoming increasingly competitive… and national exposure from an athletic program can help open the door to those out-of-state students who might consider coming here. This, too, has to be considered in any decision making…. A vision for future enrollment.

    I have a motto: “Don’t make decisions based on ego or emotion. Base them on fact and figures.” That will be no different here. Right now, our emotions are high… we want what we had… We like being at the top and play for championships bigger than the Big Sky Conference – but we have to define “at the top of what?” We have great regional/state-wide recognition, but not much nationally. Look at the direction Boise State is taking. The consultants believe Montana could be the next Boise State – not the next Idaho. Actually, Idaho may now be in a better financial situation than we do – and their college is growing nationally.

    Today is a new day. It is NOT business as usual – particularly in the area of intercollegiate athletics at the NCAA Division I level… where budgets range from $8 million annually to Texas and Ohio State at $120 million.

    I’m sure you see now why this will be such a difficult decision by President Engstrom – and one that will have to be made in the very near future. We will feed him all the latest information, but ultimately, it will be his decision — and will have to be supported by the Board of Regents. Wish it were easier, but it isn’t. At least UM has options — others are only followers in all of these discussions. We’re in a good place… and that separates us both academically and athletically from the others.

    Keep the faith …. And GO GRIZ!!!!

    Jim O’Day

    Director of Athletics

    The University of Montana


    1. Michael in Indy

      Frank has talked a lot here about “thinking like a college president,” especially on things like Big Ten expansion. Big Ten presidents have been in the position where, financially and athletically, their schools have been very successful. The question with expansion was, “How do ensure we’ll become even more successful an bring in even greater revenue?”

      At schools like Montana and my alma mater, Appalachian State, school presidents and boards face different issues. Both football programs have been about as successful as they could possibly be at the FCS level. They’ve been #1 and #2 in FCS attendance for the past five years, drawing more fans per home game than every MAC and Sun Belt school, 8 C-USA schools, 4 MWC schools, and 7 WAC schools. They’ve each made $50 million+ in investments towards football-related facilities. They’ve dominated their conferences. One of them has appeared in 8 of the past 10 national finals, including the past 6. They don’t win every FCS national championship, but it’s fair to say they don’t have any unfinished business at the FCS level.

      The problem for Montana and App State is that they’re kind of a “tweener” program. They’re able to invest far more into their football programs than 90% of the FCS, and they’re on par with dozens of non-BCS schools as far as talent and athletic budgets, but their resources are a far, far cry from the resources of schools in BCS leagues and schools like BYU and TCU. Montana is analagous to Nebraska, except that even tiny Nebraska has double Montana’s population, twenty-fold the size of the fanbase, and 100-fold the national cache. ASU comes from a state of nearly 10 million, but that state has four ACC schools, ECU, a [terrible] NFL team, and an NBA team. With all that competition for attention in its own state, “upgrading” from home games against Georgia Southern to Fla. Int’l may not garner enough interest to make a costly move worthwhile.

      Most importantly, these school presidents aren’t facing decisions for how to grow their revenue. They’re facing decisions for how to just keep their programs afloat.

      I’m sure someone will ask, “Do you want to see your alma mater move up?” If it doesn’t run the athletic budget into the ground, and if there’s a realistic chance to become the “next Boise,” sure. It would amazing to see Appalachian one day host an ACC or Big East team at home or to see them in a respectable bowl game. Yet considering the thrill of watching our class act of a coach host three NCAA championships, I’m not at all ashamed that my team doesn’t play at the highest level. After all, it’s our status as an FCS program that allowed “Appalachian State 34, Michigan 32” to be one of the most legendary moments in college football history.


      1. Richard

        I think simple economics should induce programs like Montana and App St. to move up. These schools would be competitive from the get-go in the Sun Belt and “new WAC”, and they’d get more guarantee games with bigger payouts. You don’t need the resources of a BYU or TCU at the beginning; you just need to be able to be competitive with the likes of Troy & Idaho and go to a bowl games once in a while. Plus, you _could_ become a Boise. Stay in FCS, and there’s a ceiling that you can’t burst through. Go up to FCS, and there’s a chance (and even if you don’t become Boise, the finances would probably still be as good or better in the lower levels of FBS).


    1. Playoffs Now

      Not near as much chatter about UHou to the NFC BigEast, other than that they are being considered. Just as much chatter that the BEast is considering as many as 12-20 schools, so I wouldn’t read too much into it.

      However, consider that the current UHou prez was also the USF prez when the BEast decided to add them. So she knows how to successful maneuver and at least somewhat influence the conference’s decision makers.


    2. @loki_the_bubba – I’ve long thought that this makes all the sense in the world. For the sake of the BE, I just hope that the rumblings that the league, for whatever reason, would rather move up Villanova if push comes to shove are off-base. If the BE wants an FBS start-up like Villanova instead of TCU, then it doesn’t deserve AQ status anymore.


  2. M

    I think Illinois is a good bet. They always seem to play OSU tough. I’m not really sure on the other two. NC State seems like a trendy pick which might be good or bad. Neither BC or ND looks particularly good this year.

    Still no love for the 4-0 Wildcats who are #9 in the country in transitive wins or the 4-0 Wildcats who are #1 in transitive wins?


  3. Playoffs Now

    Since it is Friday, and in the spirit of “Whatever happened to Northwestern’s Purple Book Cat?” and “UFO’s have been circling nuclear missile sites!” I present you:

    “…I dont know, but both interns said that Villanova will not be excepted into the current outline) TCU has specified that they do not want certain teams in the New Big East. ie. Baylor, Houston or SMU…”

    Will Villanova accept not being excepted?

    But wait, there’s more:

    …The Big East is also talking about its own network with the Big 10 after its current contract runs out. If true, this could be the standing ground that the Big East needs. It seems to be going after a first strike campaign while everyone else is sleeping till seasons end. Prelim talks have been made with Virginia Tech, Clemson, TCU, Texas Tech, Kansas, KState, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State…”

    No doubt, it will soon get even awesomer…


    1. Richard

      “The Big East is also talking about its own network with the Big 10 after its current contract runs out.”

      OK, this sentence is hard to understand; does he mean they’ll try to start a network or they’ll try to form an alliance with the Big10/BTN?


    2. Richard

      “Conference outline:

      Okie light
      S Florida

      West Virginia
      V Tech

      No Mizzou? OK, that casts serious doubt on this whole proposal (of course, OU leaving Texas seems quite unlikely as well). Also, how exactly are they going to pull away VTech (or any ACC school) from the ACC?


      1. Richard

        The only way this proposed lineup could possibly make any sense is if the BE and Big10 are working in conjunction to kill off the Big12 & ACC and keep the SEC from taking any juicy pieces.

        In any case, the Big10 would have to expand by 8 and go to a Big20. So for instance, the Big10 could take Maryland, UVA, UNC, Duke, GTech, NCSU, Miami, and FSU. The first 5 are AAU, and the last 3 are close to AAU.
        Or they could take 8 out of the ACC 8 and Mizzou, TAMU, & Texas.

        I don’t see why the BE should stop at 16 instead of taking Mizzou and TAMU as well, if they’re going to go whole hog, though those 2 schools may prefer the SEC.


        1. Playoffs Now

          Whoa, I hadn’t thought of B10+2 and BEast collusion, interesting concept. Am skeptical about the ‘Keeping the juicy pieces from the SEC’ bit, but otherwise can see the logic. Not sure that it has to go beyond 16 for any conference.

          The idea of the 2 conferences cooperating is a way to make the super BEast at least plausible. I can see Tagliabue examining combinations that would produce the best TV $’s and perhaps in theory some of those could surpass the ACC’s current payout. But why leave the safety of what you know, unless it is clear that the new conference wouldn’t quickly be raided? Only Delany’s cooperation could remove that risk.

          Still not buying this grand conspiracy, though. If nothing else, why would the BEast ask VanillaNova to jump up if they were trying to pull off the huge upset of forming the 4th super conference first? With 70+ legitimate contender schools for just 64 slots, the conference has much better choices. Is 23 bball schools really easier to work with than 24? Philly that important a market post-transformative consolidation into 4 super conferences?


          1. Richard

            There’s seems to be an internal battle within the BE on what course to take between the (basketball-centric) “Old Guard” who don’t want to expand (besides adding VNova) and the football schools who want to expand before their conference gets picked apart.

            I actually think 20 teams isn’t much different from 16. You’ll still play a handful of schools every year and more schools half the time; you just wouldn’t ever play 5 schools in the regular season, but most of those schools would have been in a different conference previously anyway.

            Anyhow, the fact that they are purportedly going after Clemson & VTech (instead of, say, Maryland, GTech or Miami) kind of made me think that they were working with the Big10, since those would be the 2 attractive ACC schools remaining if the Big10 took its favored 8.


          2. @Playoffs Now – I agree with your last overall point for different reasons. The proverbial elephant in the room will continue to be Notre Dame, and as long as there’s a chance that they’ll join the Big Ten, then the Big Ten has an inherent interest in never seeing the Big East become stable. Plus, I’ve always thought that the supposed rivalry between the Big Ten and SEC is overstated – I believe that both of them really aren’t as worried about each other as much as allowing a third conference rise up to their level. Think of the Big Ten as Target and the SEC as Wal-Mart – they might not like each other publicly, but the last thing that either of them want is another legit competitor threatening their dual supremacy.

            Meanwhile, having indentured servants is apparently legal in Big East country:


          3. Richard

            Frankly, personally, I’m not sure I would want either ND or Texas in the Big10. The first because their fans hate the conference concept; the second because their administrators want to lord over whatever conference they’re in. In both cases, we know both schools would do whats best for them instead of what’s best for the conference. I’m not sure the Big10 really needs all that strife and angst, especially if they could get 2 programs that are almost as prestigious in FSU & Miami and a bunch of top basketball schools.


          4. Jake

            @Frank – the more I read, the stranger that story got. Embezzlement? Delivering money to a casino? Good stuff.

            If the Big Ten is set on destabilizing the Big East, does that mean they would oppose the proposed Big East Network? That’s a big selling point for me as far as TCU joining up.


        2. Playoffs Now

          Playing with this a little more, recall how the OhSt AD said the B10+2 is probably done UNLESS other schools approached them, and how other conference voices have suggested 16 is coming, sooner or later. Now let’s say the BEast somehow convinces the middle of the B12-2 that the BEast won’t be raided and can now form a viable TV network with guaranteed money. So the Super BEast starts with 12-14 schools and announces that they are heading to 16 fb. TX to the P16 now seems inevitible, especially if they can work the politics to force aTm to come along.

          4×16 now appears inevitable. Delany can now approach ACC targets and say, “We want to offer 4 of your schools. Do you join us, the SEC, the BEast, or be left behind?” MD, VA, and GT probably jump at the opportunity, and I doubt that NC wants the SEC over B16. State politics might still screw up NC heading north, but then the B16 could always ‘settle’ for an FSU that’s been pursuing AAU membership.

          Of course Delany might want 20, but then the trigger sequence is harder to initiate because a P20 has room for all the OK and TX teams.


          1. Playoffs Now

            Should clarify the thought, Delany could then approach those schools with that message and ask, “Given what is happening, would you like to approach us, the SEC, or BEast for membership?”


          2. Richard

            Well, if I’m Big10 commish, I could care less if a P20 forms. So long as I get my 8 ACC schools and the SEC doesn’t get Texas, I’m happy. The BE would still pick up Clemson & VTech (and BC if they want them) and be assured survival & a TV deal, so they wouldn’t complain.


          3. psu4life

            Te Big Ten could very well be helping the Big East to destabilize the ACC for the chance of getting Duke and UNC. Both those schools a prestigious research universities and also two basketball schools that would increase the value of the Big Ten Network. It is true that basketball was a non-factor in recent realignment, but the Duke vs UNC games are the biggest commodity in college basketball. Plus, Duke has a large alumni base in the New York area that would be able to help get the BTN on basic cable in NYC.


          4. 1. The only way the “middle of the Big 12” aligns with the Big East is if the Big East football schools finally liberate themselves from their basketball-oriented brethren. Do that, and you may have a chance.

            2. In an “inevitable” 4 x 16, the Big Ten takes Maryland, Virginia, UNC and either Georgia Tech or Duke (I sense Tech has more value). UNC can get away with joining the Big Ten if N.C. State gets an invite from the SEC.


          5. Richard

            Not sure that’s desirable. Even if you take UVa, Maryland, UNC, and Duke/GTech, the only state you lock up for sure is Maryland. VTech would be more popular in Virginia than UVa. NCSU would still split the market in NC, and GTech is behind UGa in Georgia. I think, if 16 is the max, the Big10 has to get the Miami-FSU pair or the Texas-TAMU pair (or both) or else expanding more doesn’t make enough sense.


          6. Let’s suppose the 4 x 16 idea, or something close to it, takes place — but in this scenario, joining the Big Ten, SEC and Pac-1x as “winners” is…the repackaged Big East (or, should I say, the new conference formed by the eight current football league members — breaking away from Providence would be a prerequisite here), propped up as an adjunct of sorts to the Big Ten. Let us also assume that in this scenario, Notre Dame and Brigham Young remain independents.

            Who goes where?

            First, let us acknowledge that each of these conferences has different criteria it would seek for members. The Big Ten wants a land-grant, academic/research focus with good all-around athletics. The SEC seeks a strong football culture, first and foremost. The new “Big East” wants members decent in football, solid in basketball, and would be more accepting of smaller or private institutions than the other conferences. The Pac wants to add southwest markets.

            So here’s what could happen, with the ACC and the conference now known as the Big 12 being picked clean:

            Big Ten adds Georgia Tech, Maryland, North Carolina and Virginia.

            SEC adds Clemson, N.C. State, Texas A&M and Virginia Tech.

            Pac-12 adds Texas Tech, Texas, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to become the Pac-16.

            “Big East” adds Boston College, Duke, Florida State, Miami, Wake Forest, Baylor, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State and Missouri. While the other conferences are 16 teams, it has 18, with the five Big 12 emigres joining Cincinnati, Louisville, South Florida and West Virginia in a West division for football; the other nine members — the five from the ACC, Connecticut, Pittsburgh, Rutgers and Syracuse — would comprise the East. Any cross-divisional games scheduled would not count in standings, so WVU would keep playing Pitt and South Florida could still play Miami.

            It would be a bit weird to have UNC, NCSU and Duke in three different conferences, but no more so than when the Southwest Conference members went their separate ways or when Boise State, Idaho State and Idaho were no longer together in the Big Sky.

            Here, all the surviving conferences get what they want: the Big Ten a solid academic/athletic mix and an imprint in a fast-growing part of the country; the SEC gets more football “brands”; the new Big East gets a solid footing, a good institutional mix and several “name” programs in basketball; and Larry Scott finally corrals Texas et al.


          7. Vincent

            Let me also add that a 20-member “Big East” (two separate 10-team conferences for football) could be formed under my plan by putting Texas Christian and Memphis into the West, thus shipping West Virginia into the East where it more naturally belongs.

            For basketball, you could have four 5-team divisions, featuring hoop powers such as Duke, Kansas, Memphis, Syracuse and Connecticut.


          8. Richard

            In that scenario, there’s no need for the BE to go to 18; I think Baylor, ISU, and Wake get left out in the cold while TCU gets added by the BE. There’s no law that says a current Big6 school has to stay a Big6 school after the shakeup.

            I also don’t see any sane conference leaving FSU and Miami for the BE.

            In any case, my take is that if what you say comes to fruition, the SEC and Pac10 strenthen (the BE strengthens a lot) while the Big10 weakens on an absolute basis.


          9. Richard

            Also, if one conference is going to 20, then why would the Big10 leave Miami and FSU for the BE to pick up instead of going to 20 itself?


          10. Vincent

            Richard, you’re viewing this solely in football terms, and I don’t think the Big Ten presidents (who will ultimately make the final decision) view it that way. Nebraska wouldn’t have been added, despite its football “brand,” had it not been for its AAU status. The “weakening” you view from a football perspective would be more than compensated for by the four ACC newcomers’ academic, research and overall athletic clout.

            Also, keep in mind this “Big East” is not the same as the current Providence-based bunch, but a wholly new conference with a different way of doing things. As a 20-member conference, it would also unite several private schools (Duke, Wake, Baylor, Miami, BC, TCU and Syracuse) who often find it difficult to compete on the same level as large public colleges.


          11. Richard

            The Big10 would view the benefits of expansion over a 50-100 year period. In research, NCSU, FSU, and Miami are on par with Nebraska or even better. If they gain AAU status a decade from now (which I consider pretty likely), 50 years from now, it would look pretty silly to exclude those 3 schools just because they weren’t AAU in the year 2010.

            Remember that MSU was admitted before it gained AAU status as well.


        3. Richard

          You know, I was thinking about this more, and….

          Remember that if the Big10 took the ACC 8 they desired and the BE got the schools they purportedly want, that Mizzou, Texas, and TAMU would be desirable but still be unaccounted for? But what if the Big10 took those 3 as well. You’d be 1 team short of a 24-school league:

          Notre Dame

          With essentially a national league, ND can’t use the excuse that joining a conference would tie it down to a regional schedule.

          Now how would a 24-school league work? You’d have 6 divisions, semifinals, and a championship game. You can put this in effect 2 ways:
          1. Finish an 11-game “regular season” by the traditional rivalry week before Thanksgiving (so OSU-Michigan & the other rivalry games would be back in it’s traditional slot). Then match up the teams in division A with the teams in division B by how they finished in the divisional standings so the game featuring the division winners would essentially be a semifinal game. Then hold the championship between the semifinal winners. As an aside, the other 12th games don’t have to be held Thanksgiving week; in fact, holding them Championship week may be better as the other major conferences would have only 1 game each (their title game) and it would give more time to sell tickets.

          2. Essentially have 2 leagues of 2 divisions each and hold 2 title games. Then have the title game winners face off in a bowl. This wouldn’t appeal to the Rose Bowl traditionalists (unless, somehow, we got the Rose Bowl to take in 2 Big10 teams), but it would make winning the national championship easier.

          how would the divisions look? First off, thre would only be 6 “official” games (the 5 intradivisional games and the 12th game). However, the traditional Big10 schools can still hold non-conf matchups against each other (likewise, the old ACC schools could do the same).

          So the divisions:





          Note that each division has 2 traditional powers. I foresee a bunch of annual non-conf Big10 rivalry games:
          maybe Michigan-Minnesota
          maybe OSU-PSU
          maybe Illinois-Mizzou
          maybe Illinois-IU

          The original Big10 teams in divisions A & B may make a compact to play a bunch of non-conf games against each other as well. Same with the schools in divisions C & D.

          I could see the Big10 and BE form an alliance and start a second channel (so the BTBE channel and BTBE 2) with the 24-school Big10 taking twice the share of the 16-school BE (50% Big10, 25% BE, 25% Fox?). The expanded Big10 would show its games Saturdays while the expanded BE would show its marquee games on weeknights.


          1. I don’t believe the NCAA would allow your plan (nothing beyond a championship game involving two divisions), one reason I think conferences larger than 16 teams are not feasible.


          2. Richard

            Hmm. I see the flaw. Only the second solution can work, then, where you have 2 “conferences” under the Big10 umbrella, and the Big10 has 2 champions (either meeting in a bowl game or sending them 2 different places; this would work better in a Plus-1 world).


          3. Richard

            OK, thinking this over, I would take Rutgers over Mizzou (lose to Tulane be damned).

            So revised 24-school dream conference:





            2 powers in each division. 8 games; 5 intradivisional, 1 rotating against a school from each of the other 3 divisions. Michigan-OSU, NU-Illinois, & UNC-Virginia would be permanent OOC Big10 games. Only permitted “OOC” games once the Big10 season starts would be those against other Big10 teams (Illinois-NU & Michigan-OSU would be at the end of the season), but both ND and Texas would have their bye week the first week of October (first week of conference play), so the Red River Shootout and ND-USC can take place then.

            Illinois is out of place, but either NU or Illinois has to go east, and even though I think NU would prefer the East and Illinois would prefer the North, every other school in the north would want to visit Chicagoland, while only OSU in the East would care.

            You’ll have intriguing annual OOC rivalry games the first 4 weeks (FSU-Florida, GTech-Georgia, Virginia-VTech, Iowa-ISU).
            Thanksgiving week would be even more terrific:

            Texas-TAMU & FSU-Miami could make up a Thanksgivng Friday double-header. Maybe Nebraska-Iowa could be Thanksgiving day (bye week for Nebraska, Iowa, FSU, and Miami week before Thanksgiving).

            I even invision a schedule where a team after a bye week only plays another team coning off a bye week when conference play starts (so there’s no scheduling unfairness like what ‘Bama has to go through this year).

            That would mean the conference slate would have
            Week5: 8 intradivision games (+ a few OOC)
            Week6: 12 intradivision games
            week7: 12 interdivision games
            week8: 12 interdivision games
            week9: 12 interdivision games
            Week10: 8 intradivision games (first week in Nov)
            Week11: 12 intradivision games
            Week12: 10 intradivision games
            Week13: 12 games (10 intradivision)


    3. @Playoffs Now – I could see TCU not wanting other Texas schools in the BE, but when he started listing out a bunch of ACC and Big IIX schools that the BE was supposedly targeting, my eyes started to go into the back of my head.


      1. Jake

        Yeah, that whole thread was … interesting. I post on pretty frequently, but I’m not familiar with the OP on that one. My guess is that it’s a troll.

        I mean, if OU wanted the ditch the Big 12, they could probably get themselves into the SEC, Pac-10 or ACC. Why they would pick the BEast is beyond me. KU I could see.


        1. Richard

          The ACC would deem OU to be too low academically (and far away). The Pac10 would deem Oklahoma to be a small state far away (and low academically, though not sure how much that matters). They’d take OU with Texas, but not without Texas. Last time, the SEC had little interest in OU because Oklahoma’s a low poulation state, and you have to take OSU with OU. In short, I can see the leftovers in the Big12-2 jump to the BE if they think TAMU or Texas is leaving (for the SEC or independence).

          The more interesting question is why VTech or Clemson would leave the ACC for the BE. I don’t think they would unless the Big10 takes in the 8 ACC schools I mentioned above. Even then, the SEC may make a play for VTech, though if the money’s just as good (or close), VTech may prefer the super-BE.


          1. Jake

            If the Pac-10 will take Utah, surely OU can’t be beneath them? Oklahoma has about a million more people than Utah, and the Sooners have a very strong following in Texas. Even if they lose the UT game (a possibility), they’d find a way to maintain a presence in the state. Also, OU is top dog in their home state, while the Utes play second fiddle to BYU.

            The OSU argument makes sense – that anchor could definitely hold OU back.


      2. Playoffs Now

        Oh yeah, at least 90% of that original post is fan fiction. However it is possible that the BEast has contacted some or most of those schools just to feel out and float trial balloons. Basic due diligence when your conference is at the bottom of the BCS totem poll and the sharks may still be hungry. They, the ACC, and B12-2 have to worry about getting WACed.

        But of course, brainstorming is very different than actually pulling off a logic defying blockbuster. If the BEast can’t even peel away BC or Miami, they won’t be getting VT. VT only moves if the B10+2 goes to 16 and triggers the 4×16 race, in which case the SEC will surely grab them if the ACC can’t pull something off.

        But toying with the BEast might provide leverage for some schools towards their other goals. For example, the OK schools surely notice the limited spaces left for a P16 and the bad math if TX politically prevents aTm from going to the SEC and TTech is tied to TX. One would think the SEC would be OU’s first choice of alternatives, but would OK St be allowed to tag along? If aTm ultimately can’t go SEC, then do they, TX, TTech, and Baylor at some point go west and burn the OK loyalty?

        Many of these schools named do have reasons to worry. Politically package deals hurting options for OU-OK St, KS-KS St, VT-VA. Clemson possibly being SEC blackballed by SC and stuck if the ACC is raided by the B16 and SEC16. TTech left behind if the Texas political scene shifts with TX-aTm-OU-OK St going P16. So there is logic in approaching them for secret alliances and an ambush on Survivor-Expansionauga.

        How long can Baylor and Wake Forest hold onto their immunity idols? Is Notre Dame Russell Hantz?


  4. Matthew

    Agree with your BC pick, fairly unsure about the others (I have a sneaking suspicion VT blows out NC St but I could definitely be wrong on that one)

    This weekend I like:
    Stanford +7 @ Oregon
    Iowa -7 vs Penn St
    Virginia +7 vs FSU
    ECU +14 @ UNC
    Army +6 vs Temple
    Hawaii -8 vs LA Tech


  5. Jake

    Wait, the Giants are favored over the Bears? Gimme that action.

    Dropping UT all the way to 25 is extreme, but probably not unwarranted. However, moving the Hogs down five spots for almost beating the best team in the country seems a bit harsh. But I guess that’s exactly what the AP did, so I suppose you’re in good company.

    Okay, I’m going back to the morass of TCU-to-the-Big East rumors now. Go BYU tonight, I guess.


    1. @Jake – I was definitely surprised by the Bears-Giants line – my expectation was that it would be the opposite with Vegas playing on people making too much of the Bears’ undefeated record so far (when they could EASILY be 1-2). However, the Giants have a worse offensive line than the Bears (and that’s saying something), while the Bears defense looks a LOT better than the Giants defense. Let’s put it this way – I look at the Giants as the pro version of Notre Dame this season, where I’m pretty much going to have a hard time betting on them as a favorite against anyone other than the very worst teams.


  6. duffman

    I did some digging about’s Insider section about “should be” College Football Super Powers that aren’t, by Ryan McGee. Here are some observations (warning – long post). I look at the 5 mentioned, and tried to analyze some of the other teams FtT posters mentioned. I put some space between each team so, skip to that team if you do not read the whole post. For attendance numbers I used the ncaa report for 2009 (
    I spent the most time on TAMU because frankly the more I looked at their situation, the less sense it made. The problem when using this blog is the size and space editing things and I kept putting data points in to keep track. I have no idea how it will look, nor can I edit it after the fact.

    #5 Arizona

    a) state size – #14, 6.6 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Cardinals – D 1, Arizona State
    c) school data – public, state, .4 B endowment, AAU, 30K U, 8K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 1 NC, 1 RU, 4 FF, 8 EE, 14 SS
    WCBB –
    baseball – 3 CWS, 3 RU, 15 CWS appearances
    softball – 8 CWS, 13 CWS appearances
    hockey – ACHA member, 1985 title vs PSU,
    other – golf, swimming
    e) football

    conference rank – (Pac 10) #4 = avg 54,186
    stadium – 59K, 09 average = 52,555 (89% of capacity) max 60K 1996
    history –
    Border Conference – 3 conference titles (35′, 36′, 41′)
    WAC – 2 conference titles (64′, 73′)
    Pac 10 – conference title (93) 10-2 (beat miami in fiesta bowl)

    conclusions – baseball/softball, men’s basketball school, no football history in a moderate demand conference. why would they even make the Top 5?

    #4 Michigan State

    a) state size – #08, 10 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Lions – D 1, UM, E+C+W Michigan
    c) school data – public, state, 1.0 B endowment, AAU, 36K U, 11K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 2 NC, 1 RU, 8 FF, 11 EE, 15 SS
    WCBB –
    baseball –
    softball –
    hockey – CCHA member, 3 NCAA titles, 9 Frozen Four
    other – golf
    e) football

    conference rank – (Big 10) #2 = avg 71,769
    stadium – 75K, 09 average = 74,741 (100% of capacity) max 80K ????
    history –
    Independent – 09 (8-1), 12 (7-1), 13 (7-0), 32 (7-1), 34 (8-1), 38 (8-2) Lost to Auburn in the Orange Bowl, 50 (8-1), 51 (9-0), 52 (9-0)
    MNC #1 claimed for 51, MNC #2 claimed for 52 (Clarence Munn coach)

    Big 10 – 1953 (9-1, L PU), T-1st CC, Rose bowl (beat UCLA), The Terps finished 10-0 but lost their bowl game to Oklahoma finishing 10-1, back then the final poll was 11/29 before the bowl games were played
    Big 10 – 1955 (9-1, L UM), 2nd CC, Rose Bowl (beat UCLA) #2 final rank
    MNC #3 claimed for 55, but 10-0 OU beat 10-0 terps in Orange Bowl
    Big 10 – 1957 (9-1, L PU), 2nd CC (tOSU 1st CC), #3 final rank
    MNC #4 claimed for 57, but tOSU lost to TCU in RS #2, Auburn #1
    Big 10 – 1965 (10-1), CC (7-0), Rose Bowl (lost UCLA) #1 final rank
    MNC #5 claimed for 65 (#1 in Coaches, #2 in AP) UCLA big underdog
    Big 10 – 1966 (9-0-1), CC (7-0), Infamous ND 10-10 tie! #2 final rank
    MNC #6 claimed for 1966, I can understand MSU claiming this one!
    Big 10 – 1978 (8-3), CC (7-1, L PU), other 2 losses were ND and USC
    Big 10 – 1987 (9-2-1), CC (7-0-1, T UofI), 2 losses were ND and FSU
    Big 10 – 1990 (8-3-1), CC (6-2, L UofI, Iowa), lost ND, tied Syracuse
    Big 10 – 1999 (10-2), CC (6-2, L PU & UW), last year of Nick Saban

    conclusions – solid football, basketball, and hockey school in a solid conference (Big 10). MSU is competitive and can claim several MNC’s in the post WW II era. Still a second tier school as evidenced by Nick Saban moving on to top tier schools afterward. If a few things break the other way their numbers could look much better (the MSU vs ND tie!) but I really do not understand why anybody would put them in the top 5.

    #3 North Carolina

    a) state size – #10, 9.4 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Panthers – D 1, WF, ECU, NC ST, Duke
    c) school data – public, state, 1.9 B endowment, AAU, 18K U, 11K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 5 NC, 4 RU, 18 FF, 24 EE, 28 SS
    WCBB – 1NC, 3FF
    baseball – 2 RU, 8 CWS appearances
    softball –
    hockey –
    other – field hockey 6 NCAA, lacrosse 4 NCAA, soccer 20!! NCAA titles
    e) football
    conference rank – (ACC) #5 = avg 51,249
    stadium – 60K, 09 average = 56,607 (94% of capacity) max 62K 1997
    history –
    UNC started out in the SIAA, this became the SoCon, The SoCon still exists but the SIAA helped spawn the SWC, SEC, and ACC. I know the UNC pre ACC is spotty, but I got conflicting data as I could not find an official document for UNC prior to the ACC. Since I can not edit this after the fact, it is what it is.

    1895 – SIAA\SoCon 7-1-1 (5-0 conference)
    1898 – SIAA\SoCon 9-0
    1914 – SIAA\SoCon 10-1
    1922 – SoCon 9-1 (5-1 conference co-champ)
    1925 – SoCon 7-1-1
    1929 – SoCon 9-1
    1934 – SoCon 7-1-1
    1935 – SoCon 8-1
    1936 – SoCon 8-2 (second place)
    1937 – SoCon 7-1-1 (second place)
    1939 – SoCon 8-1-1
    1946 – SoCon 8-2-1 (4-0-1 conference)
    1947 – SoCon 8-2
    1948 – SoCon 9-1-1
    1949 – SoCon 7-4 (5-0 conference)
    1963 – ACC 9-2 (1st in ACC) W vs Air Force in Gator – Jim Hickey
    1971 – ACC 9-3 (6-0 CG) L vs Georgia in Gator – Bill Dooley
    1972 – ACC 11-1 (6-0 CG) W vs Texas Tech in Sun – Bill Dooley
    1977 – ACC 8-3-1 (1st in ACC) L vs Nebraska in Liberty – Dooley to VT
    1980 – ACC 11-1 (6-0 CG) W vs Texas in Bluebonnet – Dick Crum
    1981 – ACC 10-2 (5-2 CG) W vs Arkansas in Gator – Dick Crum
    1993 – ACC 10-3 (6-2 CG) L vs Alabama in Gator – Mack Brown
    1996 – ACC 10-2 (6-2 CG) W vs WVA in Gator – Mack Brown
    1997 – ACC 11-1 (7-1 CG) W vs VT in Gator – Mack Brown to UTexas

    conclusions – Basketball school in a basketball conference – and a dominate women’s soccer program! Even being as generous as possible, no one would accuse UNC of being a football superpower. They do not even have an early history of dominance in the sport. Splitting a decent size state with 5 D1 teams and a pro team does not help especially given the history of football in the ACC. I could see them possibly in the Top 5 but an can argue as many reasons for them not to make the list.

    #2 Minnesota

    a) state size – #21, 5.3 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Vikings – D 1, NONE?
    c) school data – public, state, 2.2 B endowment, AAU, 29K U, 22K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 1 EE, 3 SS – 1 FF vacated, 2 pre NCAA claims in 1902, 1919
    WCBB – 1 FF, 1 EE, 3 SS
    baseball – 3 CWS
    softball –
    hockey – WCHA member, 7 titles (2 pre NCAA 5 NCAA), 19 Frozen Fours
    other – volleyball, wrestling, women’s hockey
    e) football

    conference rank – (Big 10) #2 = avg 71,769
    stadium – 51K, 09 average = 50,805 (100% of capacity) max 51K
    history –

    1892 IAAA, 5-0 (3-0 against Mich, Wisc, and NU)
    1893 IAAA, 6-0 (3-0 against Mich, Wisc, and NU) – beat Kansas OOC
    1896 B10, 8-2 (losses to Mich & Wisc) – beat ISU, Kansas OOC
    1900 B10, 10-0-2 (3-0-1, T Chicago) – beat ISU, Nebraska OOC
    1901 B10, 9-1-1 (3-1, L Wisconsin) – beat Nebraska
    1902 B10, 9-2-1 (3-1, L Michigan) – beat ISU, L Nebraska OOC
    1903 B10, 14-0-1 (3-0-1, T Michigan) – beat ISU OOC
    1904 B10, 13-0 (3-0) – beat ISU, Nebraska OOC
    1905 B10, 10-1 (2-1, L Wisconsin) – beat ISU, Nebraska OOC
    1906 B10, 4-1 (2-0) – beat ISU, Nebraska OOC
    1909 B10, 6-1 (3-0) – beat ISU, Nebraska OOC
    1910 B10, 6-1 (2-0) – beat ISU, Nebraska OOC
    1911 B10, 6-0-1 (3-0-1, T Wisconsin) – beat ISU, Nebraska OOC
    1914 B10, 6-1 (3-1, L Illinois) – beat ISU OOC, Nebraska off schedule
    1915 B10, 6-0-1 (3-0-1, T Illinois) – beat ISU OOC
    1916 B10, 6-1 (3-1, L Illinois) – ISU off schedule
    1917 B10, 4-1 (3-1, L Wisconsin)
    WW I – The gophers fall off the earth until
    1923 B10, 5-1-1 (3-1-1, L Michigan, T Wisconsin)
    1927 B10, 6-0-2 (3-0-1, T IU 😉 ) – beat OK ST and tied ND OOC
    1933 B10, 4-0-4 (2-0-4, T IU, PU, NU, UM) – beat Pitt OOC
    1934 B10, 8-0 (5-0) – beat Nebraska and Pitt OOC – MNC #1
    1935 B10, 8-0 (5-0) – beat Nebraska and Tulane OOC – MNC #2
    1936 B10, 7-1 (4-1, L NU) – beat Wash, UNL, Texas OOC – MNC #3
    1937 B10, 6-2 (5-0) – close losses to ND 1 pt and UNL 5 pts OOC
    1938 B10, 6-2 (4-1, L NU) – beat Washington and Nebraska OOC
    1939 – see also TAMU 1939 – Gophers go 3-4-1
    1940 B10, 8-0 (6-0) – beat Washington & Nebraska OOC – MNC #4
    1941 B10, 8-0 (5-0) – beat Washington, UNL, Pitt OOC – MNC #5
    WW II – The gophers fall off the earth until
    1954 – Murray Warmath first year, gophers go 7-2 (ranked #20)
    1956 – 6-1-2 (ranked #9, #12)
    1960 B10, 8-2 (6-1, L PU) – beat UNL, KSU OOC L UW RB – MNC #6
    1961 B10, 8-2 (6-1, L Wisc) – beat Miouri, Oregon, UCLA in RB #6
    1962 B10, 6-2-1, (5-2, L NU, Wisc) – beat Missouri, Navy OOC – #10
    1967 B10, 8-2 (6-1, L PU) – beat Utah, Nebraska, SMU OOC – #14
    1971 – Murray Warmath last season
    1984 – Lou Holtz, after 1985, goes to ND and wins MNC in 1988
    1997 – Glen Mason 3-9, 5-6, 8-4, 6-6, 4-7, 8-5, 10-3, 7-5, 7-5, 6-7

    In summary – 16 conference titles + 5 MNC’s pre WW II and 2 conference titles + 1 MNC post WWII – The gophers worst enemy are the Germans!

    conclusions – The gophers first drop happened during World War I, and the second happened during World War II. They play in a formidable conference, with a strong conference history. I was always aware they had some early success, but I had no idea just how much they had. To their credit they hired Murray Warmath to bring them back, if briefly, to where they once were. They also hired Lou Holtz, who has won conference championships in the SoCon, ACC, SWC, and a MNC at Notre Dame. This leaves the issue that they are now a second or third tier job and a stepping stone to the elite jobs. Glen Mason got them one 10 win season, and two 8 win seasons. From such a position, they could make the next jump back to an elite program. The bigger question is can they get back to good? Now that Nebraska will be back on their radar will they be able to beat the Huskers like they used to? Side note: see my chicago comments in the Illinois section

    #5 Texas A&M (TAMU)

    a) state size – #2, 25 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Cowboys, Texans – D 1, U of Texas (UT), Texas Tech (TT), Baylor (BU), Houston, SMU, TCU, North Texas, UTEP
    c) school data – public, state, 5.1 B endowment, AAU, 39K U, 9K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 2 SS
    WCBB –
    baseball – 4 CWS appearances
    softball – 3 CWS, 6 CWS appearances
    hockey –
    other – golf, track & field, equestrian
    e) football
    conference rank – (Big 12) #3 = avg 62,875 [pre UNL / CU realignment]
    stadium – 83K, 09 average = 76,800 (93% of capacity) max 88K 2007
    history –

    1894 – Independent
    1902 – Independent 7-0-2
    1903 – SIAA 7-3-1 : 1905 = 7-2-0 : 1906 = 6-1 : 1907 = 6-1-1
    1909 – Independent 7-0-1 : 1910 = 8-1 : 1911 = 6-1
    1912 – SIAA 8-1 : 1914 = 6-1-1

    TAMU vs UT = 94 L (A), 98 L (A), 99 L (SA), 00 L (SA) + L (A), 01 L (SA) + L (A), 02 T (SA) + W (A), 03 L (A), 04 L (A), 05 L (A), 06 L (A), 07 T (D) + L (A), 08 L (H) + L (A), 09 W (H) + W (A), 10 W (H), 11 L (H) = TAMU vs UT in Austin = 2-10, in Dallas = 0-0-1, in San Antonio = 0-3-1, in Houston = 2-2, in COLLEGE STATION = 0-0-0 : Total = 4-15-2

    TAMU vs SEC = 99 W vs Tulane, W vs LSU, 02 + W vs Tulane, 03 W vs Arkansas, 06 W vs Tulane + W vs LSU, 07 W vs LSU + W vs Tulane, 08 L vs LSU, 10 L vs Arkansas + W vs Tulane, 11 W vs Auburn + W vs Mississippi, 12 W vs Arkansas + W vs Mississippi State + W vs Tulane, 13 L vs Mississippi State + T vs LSU, 14 W vs LSU + W vs Mississippi

    UT losses by year / opponent
    1894 L Missouri 0-28 (prevent undefeated season)
    1896 L Missouri 0-10, L LSU 0-14 (prevent undefeated season)
    1898 L Sewanee 0-4 (prevent undefeated season)
    1899 L Sewanee 0-12, L Vandy 0-6 (prevent undefeated season)
    1901 L Kansas 0-12
    1902 L LSU 0-5
    1904 L Chicago 0-68
    1905 L Vandy 0-33
    1906 L Vandy 0-45 (prevent undefeated season)
    1907 L Missouri 4-5 (prevent undefeated season)
    1908 L Tulane 15-28, L Colorado
    1911 L Sewanee 5-6

    1912 TU 7-1 : TCU, Austin College, Oklahoma (L), Haskell, Baylor, Mississippi, Southwestern, Arkansas
    1912 TAMU 8-1 : Daniel Baker, Trinity, Arkansas, Austin College, Oklahoma, Mississippi State, Tulane, Kansas State (L), Baylor

    1913 TU 7-1 : Ft Worth Poly, Austin College, Baylor, Sewanee, Southwestern, Oklahoma, Kansas State, Notre Dame (L)
    1913 TAMU 3-4-2 : Trinity, Austin College, Ft Worth Poly, Mississippi State (L), Kansas State (L), OK State (L), Haskell (L), Baylor (T), LSU (T)

    1914 TU 8-0 : Trinity, Baylor, Rice, Oklahoma, Southwestern, Haskell, Mississippi, Wabash
    1914 TAMU 6-1-1 : Austin College, Trinity (T), TCU, Haskell (L), LSU, Rice, OK State, Mississippi

    TU joins SIAA in 1896 1-1, 97 0-0, 98 0-0, 99 3-1, 00 1-0, 01 0-0, 02 2-1, 03 1-0-1, 04 1-0 : Totals 9 – 3 – 1 (2 of 9 wins to TAMU)
    TAMU joins SIAA in 1903 0-1, 04 0-1, 05 0-0, 06 2-0, 07 2-0, 08 0-1, 12 2-0, 13 0-1-1, 14 2-0 : Totals 8 – 4 – 1 (2 of 4 losses to UT)

    [TAMU decision failure #1] – [TAMU could be a charter SEC member]

    TAMU joins the SIAA and is a member for 9 years. During this time they have a good win ratio with conference members. Their record against future SEC members is 16-3-1 vs their record to UT of 4-15-2. Not once in the 21 games against UT do they appear to have played at TAMU’s home in College Station. In sharp contrast, the vast majority of SIAA games are in College Station. UT left the SIAA 2 years after TAMU joined, yet a decade later TAMU defies all logic and leaves the SIAA to be the redheaded stepchild to UT in the newly formed SWC. In 1914 the SIAA members consisted of future SEC members; Alabama, Auburn, Mississippi, Mississippi State, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Georgia, Georgia Tech, LSU, Tulane, Kentucky, and Florida. Only TAMU (SWC) and Clemson (ACC) will not become SEC members.

    [TAMU decision failure #2] – [TAMU not retaining Charley Moran]

    From 1909 – 1914 Charley Moran coached TAMU to a perfect 6-0 season his first year as coach. Four of his next five teams suffered only 1 loss in his remaining time at TAMU. His final record at TAMU was 38-8-4 for an astounding 84% success ratio. His next coaching job was at Centre College and compiled a 42-6-1 record for an even more astounding 88% success ratio. Consider the following:

    “Moran also resumed his career as a football head coach in 1919 at Centre College, where he had a 42-6-1 record in five seasons. He had previously been working as an assistant coach at Carlisle, and had visited Centre to see his son Tom—later an NFL player with the New York Giants—play; after helping the team prepare for an important contest he was offered the head coaching job by the school. His record including undefeated seasons in 1919 and 1921, when the team was led on the field by Hall of Fame quarterback Bo McMillin. On October 29, 1921, Moran guided Centre College to a historic 6-0 upset of Harvard, which had been unbeaten the previous two seasons. The game, commonly appreviated “C6-H0”, was ranked the 3rd biggest upset in college football history by ESPN. Moran had an overall college record of 122 wins, 33 losses, and 12 ties for a .766 winning percentage, 20th best all-time.”

    Had TAMU retained his services they would have;

    + had a top 20 coach of all time
    + had a future pro football player (his son) in an A&M uniform
    + as he was an assistant coach somewhere else Centre got him cheap!
    + his replacement at TAMU lasted 2 years and went 12-5 : 71% 9-1 in 2 years!
    1957 8-3 (4-2, L Rice L UT) – lost Gator Bowl to Tennessee 0-3

    At his previous job he took football failure Kentucky to 4 bowls in 8 years, when there were few bowls and it was a big deal to be invited. I guess all that is for naught if you lose to UT 3 out of 4 games. It is not like Bryant was not already a proven commodity, but you must wonder what took him from a future at TAMU to a legacy at Alabama.

    1967 7-4 (6-1, L SMU) L PU, LSU, FSU beat Alabama in Cotton Bowl
    Gene Stallings only SWC Championship in 7 years

    1975 10-2 (6-1, L Arkansas SWC CC) – L USC Liberty Bowl 0-20
    1976 10-2 (6-2, L Houston L T Tech) – W Florida Sun Bowl 37-14
    Emory Ballard = 1 SWC CC, but 2-5 vs UT in 7 years

    1985 10-2 (7-1, SWC CC L Baylor) – beat Auburn in Cotton Bowl 36-16
    1986 9-3 (7-1, SWC CC, L Arkansas) – L to Ohio State in Cotton Bowl
    1987 10-2 (6-1, SWC CC, L T Tech) – beat Notre Dame in Cotton Bowl
    Jackie Sherrill = 3 SWC CC in 7 years and 7-2 vs UT

    [TAMU decision failure #5] – [TAMU and R C Slocum]

    1989 8-4 (6-2) Sun Bowl, 1990 9-3-1 (5-2-1) Holiday Bowl
    1991 10-2 (8-0 SWC CC) – L to Tulsa, L to FSU in Cotton Bowl 2-10
    1992 12-1 (7-0 SWC CC) – L to Notre Dame in Cotton Bowl 3-28
    1993 10-2 (7-0 SWC CC) – L to Notre Dame in Cotton Bowl 21-24
    1994 10-0-1, 1995 9-3 (5-2) W Alamo Bowl, 1996 6-6 (4-4)
    1997 9-4 (6-2, B12 SC, L KSU & TT) – L to UCLA in Cotton Bowl 23-29
    1998 11-3 (7-1, B12 CC, L UT) – L to Ohio State in Sugar Bowl 14-24
    1999 8-4 (5-3), 2000 7-5 (5-3), 2001 8-4 (4-4), 2002 6-6 (3-5)
    In 14 years R C Slocum takes TAMU to 11 bowl games, wins 4 conference championships, and 1 division championship. He has (2) 6-6 seasons, (1) 7 win season, (3) 8 win season, (3) 9 win seasons, (3) 10 win seasons, (1) 11 win season, and (1) 12 win season. He will pass Homer Norton and become the all time game winner at TAMU. In return he will share Homer’s fate and be fired by TAMU.

    [TAMU decision failure #6] – [TAMU and the SEC strike 2]

    During his tenure at TAMU, R C Slocum’s employer will be given a second chance to join the old SIAA crowd in the SEC. Instead they will join the Big 12 while fellow SWC member Arkansas will take their place. After Slocum is fired TAMU will fall off the football map while their replacement will go on to win NCAA championships in basketball and track as the SEC’s newest representative. Within 20 years Forbes will put the Razorbacks in the Top 20 most valuable college teams even tho they are tiny compared to the massive population and wealth that TAMU has at its disposal. TAMU decides to remain in UT’s shadow.

    [TAMU decision failure #7] – [TAMU and the SEC strike 3]

    Earlier this year fellow conference members Nebraska – who will find a new home in the Big 10 – and Colorado – who will find a new home in the Pac 10 – leave the Big 12 like Arkansas left the SWC almost 2 decades earlier. The Big 10, Pac 10, and SEC come courting, with the SEC getting the most favorable response. True to form, TAMU turns down all offers to remain the red headed stepchild of UT and OU. While the three major conferences continue to expand their media presence and geographic reach, TAMU chooses to contract their own reach.

    In summary:

    + TAMU lets Charley Moran get away, after a successful career at TAMU, he will go onto coaching legend status at Centre College.
    + TAMU lets Dana Bible get away after a successful career at TAMU, he will go on to coaching success at Nebraska and Texas [HoF coach].
    + TAMU lets Matty Bell get away to SMU, where he will take the mustangs to a Rose Bowl and two Cotton Bowls [HoF coach].
    + Homer Norton will become #2 on TAMU’s all time win list while taking them to 4 major bowl games. In return they fire him. [HoF coach].
    + TAMU lets Paul Bryant get away to Alabama where he becomes a legend after taking TAMU from worst to first in 2 years [HoF coach].
    + TAMU lets Gene Stallings go to Alabama after winning a Cotton Bowl for them. At Alabama he will win a National Championship for Bama.
    + TAMU lets Emory Bellard go to Mississippi State where he takes the cellar dweller to 2 bowls in his first 3 years there.
    + TAMU lets Jackie Sherrill go to Mississippi State after taking them to 3 Cotton Bowls in 7 years. He wins a division title for the Bulldogs.

    + TAMU leaves the SIAA where they are successful and independent to join the longhorns in the SWC. Instead of being a charter member of the SEC, TAMU accepts second class status to in state rival Texas.
    + When the SWC collapses TAMU follows UT to the Big 12 instead of a second shot at the SEC. Arkansas jumps at the chance to take TAMU’s place while the Aggies find themselves fading over time to obscurity.
    + When the Big 12 collapses TAMU follows UT and stays put. Instead of taking a third shot at the SEC they choose to remain the third wheel at the party between UT and OU. Prognosis is not good.

    conclusions – TAMU has vast advantages over almost every college in the country. They have one of the largest states in the country to recruit from, and their home state views high school football with almost religious fervor. Good academics, large student body, and large endowment all put TAMU in excellent shape to develop a large alumni base to support them. As an added bonus they have some of the best traditions in all of college football, including the Aggie Band, the “12th” man, yell leaders / midnight yell, and probably the best looking live mascot in all of college football.

    In looking at their early history I expected to find second class ability in competing with their principle rival and was quite surprised to find how many times they appear to have been their own worst enemy. Unlike Alabama / Kentucky, USC / UCLA, Ohio State / Indiana, TAMU has not developed a basketball team to contrast the success UT experiences in football. Even UNC vs NC State early on, and UNC vs Duke now have been beneficial in bringing basketball success to their respective schools. Arkansas had the basketball mantle in the old SWC, and Kansas has it now in the current Big 12. As an outsider it appears as if TAMU continues to beat themselves just to stay close to their principle rival. It defies all logical reason, yet they do it to themselves time and again.


    a) state size – #1, 37 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Chargers, Raiders, 49ers – D 1, USC, SDSU, Fresno State, San Jose State, Stanford, Cal
    c) school data – public, state, 1.9 B endowment, AAU, 27K U, 11K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 11 NC, 2 RU, 18 FF
    WCBB – 1 NC, 2 FF
    baseball – 1 RU, 3 CWS appearances
    softball – 12 CWS, 7 RU
    hockey –
    other – golf 3 NC, gymnastics 8 NC, soccer, tennis, volleyball, T&F
    e) football
    conference rank – (Pac 10) #4 = avg 54,186
    stadium – 91K, 09 average = 64,547 (71% of capacity) max 107K
    history –

    1927 SCIAC 6-2-1 (4-0-1, Tie with Pomona)
    1935 PCC 8-2 (4-1 PCC CC, L Cal)
    1942 PCC 7-4 (6-1 PCC CC, L Oregon) – L Georgia in Rose Bowl 0-9
    1946 PCC 10-1 (7-0 PCC CC) – L to Illinois in Rose Bowl 45-14
    1953 PCC 8-2 (6-1 PCC CC, L Stanford) L to MSU in Rose Bowl 28-20
    1954 PCC 9-0 (6-0 PCC CC) – ## UCLA MNC ##
    1955 PCC 9-2 (6-0 PCC CC) – L Terps, L to MSU in rose Bowl 14-17
    1959 AAWU 5-4-1 (3-1 AAWU CC, L Washington)
    1961 AAWU 7-4 (3-1 AAWU CC, L Washington) L Minnesota Rose 3-21
    1965 Pac 8 8-2-1 (4-0 P8 CC) L MSU RS, beat them in Rose Bowl 14-12
    1975 Pac 8 9-2-1 (7-1 P8 CC, L Washington) beat tOSU in Rose 23-10
    1982 Pac 10 10-1-1 (5-1-1 P10 CC, L Wash) W Michigan Rose 24-14
    1983 Pac 10 7-4-1 (6-1-1 P10 CC, L Arizona) W Illinois Rose 45-9
    1985 Pac 10 9-2-1 (6-2 P10 CC, L Wash USC) W Iowa Rose 45-28
    1987 Pac 10 10-2 (7-1 P10 CC, L USC) L UNL W Florida Aloha 20-16
    1993 Pac 10 8-4 (6-1 P10 CC, L ASU) L UNL L Wisconsin Rose 16-21
    1997 Pac 10 10-2 (7-1 P10 CC, L WSU) L Utenn W TAMU Cotton 29-23
    1998 Pac 10 10-2 (8-0 P10 CC) L Miami L Wisconsin Rose 31-38

    conclusions – UCLA is a reverse to USC, so one seems to favor basketball and one favors football. For the LA market to only draw 65,000 to a UCLA game seems a little low when Big 10 / SEC football seem to have the biggest live draws. UCLA does have a MNC and they make about 2 runs a decade at grabbing another MNC. I was surprised to see that it was not USC that knocked them out of some of their best seasons. They also seem to be very competitive in the men’s and women’s sports they participate in. While maybe not a consistent Top 10 in football, they are at least a pretty solid second tier team. Compared to Arizona in football they are way ahead.


    a) state size – #11, 8.7 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Eagles, Giants, Jets – D 1, Temple
    c) school data – public, state, .5 B endowment, AAU, 39K U, 14K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 1 FF, 1 EE, 1 SS
    WCBB – 1 AIAW pre NCAA, 1 RU, 2 FF, 7 EE, 11SS
    baseball –
    softball –
    hockey – roller hockey
    other –
    e) football
    conference rank – (Big East) #6 = avg 44,804
    stadium – 52K, 09 average = 49,113 (94% of capacity) max 54K 2009
    history –

    1915 7-1 : L Princeton
    1917 7-1-1 : L Syracuse T WVA
    1923 7-1-1 : L WVA T Lafayette
    1924 7-1-1 : L Bucknell T Lehigh
    1938 7-1 : L NYU
    1939 7-1-1 : L Brown T Richmond
    1941 7-2 : L Syracuse L Lafayette
    1946 7-2 : L Columbia L Princeton
    1947 8-1 : L Lehigh
    1948 7-2 : L Columbia L Brown
    1958 8-1 : L Quantico
    1960 8-1 : L Villanova
    1961 9-0 : Ivy League type schedule final rank #15
    1968 8-2 : L Cornell L Army
    1975 9-2 : L Princeton L Lehigh
    1976 11-0 : Ivy League, Navy, Uconn, Umass, Louisville, Tulane
    Join Big East – not pretty for first decade
    2006 BE 11-2 (5-2, L Cincinnati, L West Virginia) final rank #12

    conclusions – Not exactly a sports powerhouse, however they are new to D1, and have grown considerably in the past decade, and their inclusion in the Big East. They do have the third highest APR score in D1, and they do have a good women’s basketball team? They are basically an Ivy League trying to jump up to D1.

    Illinois for Frank and StvInIL

    a) state size – #5, 13 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Da Bears, Rams – D 1, Northwestern, NIU
    c) school data – public, state, 1.1 B endowment, AAU, 31K U, 10K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 1 NC 1915, 1 RU, 5 FF, 9 EE, 12 SS
    WCBB – 2 SS
    baseball –
    softball –
    hockey –
    other – t&f, tennis, gymnastics, volleyball 😉
    e) football

    conference rank – (Big 10) #2 = avg 71,769
    stadium – 63K, 09 average = 59,545 (95% of capacity) max 78K 1984
    history –

    1891 6-0 (way to go lake forest!)
    1910 7-0 (4-0) Undefeated, untied, unscored upon- MNC?
    1914 7-0 (6-0) 224 PF 22 PA – MNC claimed
    1915 5-0-2 (3-0-2, T Ohio State, Minnesota)
    1919 6-1 (6-1, L Wisconsin) – MNC claimed
    1923 8-0 (5-0) – MNC claimed
    1924 6-1-1 (3-1-1, L Minnesota T Chicago
    1927 7-0-1 (5-0) T Iowa State – MNC claimed
    1928 7-1 (4-1, L Michigan)
    1929 6-1-1 (3-1-1, L Northwestern T Iowa)
    1934 7-1 (4-1, L Wisconsin)
    Robert Zuppke 1913-1941 HoF, looks like he went downhill after 1929

    1946 8-2 (6-1, L IU 😉 ) L Notre Dame, beat UCLA 45-14 in Rose Bowl
    1951 9-0-1 (5-0-1, T Ohio State) beat Stanford 40-7 in Rose Bowl MNC
    1953 7-1-1 (5-1, L Wisconsin) T Nebraska
    Ray Nusspickel 1942-1959, 1953 was his last good year, 3CC 2 RB wins

    1963 8-1-1 (5-1-1, L Michigan T tOSU) beat Wash 17-7 in Rose Bowl
    Pete Elliott 1960-1966 HoF, 1 good year out of 7

    Jim Valek 8-32 Bob Blackman 29-36-1 Gary Moeller 6-24-3

    1983 10-2 (9-0) L Missouri Lost to UCLA 9-45 in Rose Bowl #10 polls
    Mike White 1980-1987, 1 good year out of 8

    1989 10-2 (7-1, L Michigan) L Colorado beat UVA 31-21 in Citrus Bowl
    John Mackovic 1988-1991, 30-16-1, Lou Tepper 1992-1996, 17-21-2

    2001 10-2 (7-1, L Michigan) L to LSU 34-47 in Sugar Bowl #12 polls
    Ron Turner 1997-2004, 1 year out of 8, Zook was 2007 his year?

    While Illinois experienced early success, they appear to hold onto coaches well past their peak and collect the resulting loss of prestiege. Some hires were just bad, while others were just the wrong coach for the job. Blackman was a successful Ivy coach who could not translate his success at the higher competition demanded in the Big 10. Tepper dropped into a lower division after Illinois, and did a good job there while winning several titles. Mackovik did well at UT, till his 4-7 year and Mack Brown got his job the following year. While Moller had a terrible time at Illinois, a decade later he would shine at Michigan.

    The Chicago Equation – The problem in looking at the early Big 10 in general is how to factor in the University of Chicago. First, you have one Amos Alonzo Stagg and his effect on early Big 10 football. From 1892 – 1932 (41 years, the JoPa of the era) he coached the Chicago team until the university president forced him out because he felt Stagg was to old to coach (Stagg went west and coached another 14 years while winning 5 conference championships there. He would live till 1965 when he passed at the spry young age of 102! JoPa fans it means your coach may have a few more years in him). While at Chicago he had (4) 0 loss teams, (12) 1 loss teams, (7) 2 loss teams, (2) 3 loss teams en route to a 224-112-27 record at Chicago (from 1925 – 1932 the best he did was a 7-3 team in 1929 and the rest were quite dismal or his winning percentage would be much higher as 39 of his 112 [35%] losses were during this period). He would capture 7 Big 10 titles and 2 MNC’s during his time at Chicago.

    The best Bob Zuppke years at Illinois all fit well into the years that Stagg had some of his down years. Zuppke went 7-0-1 in 1927 Stagg went 4-4. Zuppke’s 1923 8-0 team is sandwiched between the 1922 and 1924 Big 10 champions from Chicago. Zuppke’s 1914 7-0 team followed Stagg’s 1913 7-0 Chicago team).

    The early power of the golden gophers follow a similar route. The 1900 gopher team that went 10-0-2 did so when Chicago went 7-5-1 (Chicago won the Big 10 the year before going 12-0-2, and 4-0 in conference play). Minnesota’s 1906 conference championship team is sandwiched between Chicago’s 1905 MNC team and the 1907 and 1908 Big 10 champion teams. When the gophers went 6-1 in 1910, Chicago went 2-5. When the gophers went 6-0-1 in 1915, Chicago went 5-2. When the gophers went 6-0-2 in 1927, Chicago went 4-4. The rise of the gophers during the Bernie Bierman era is preceded by the decline of Chicago between 1925 – 1932 when Stagg’s team finish 7th, 10th, 5th, 10th, 7th, 10th, 8th, and 8th in the Big 10.

    Even Hop’s longhorns felt the sting of the Stagg power in early football. In 1904 UT shut out TCU 40-0, Wash (STL) 23-0, Oklahoma 40-10, Baylor 50-0, TAMU 34-6, Trinity 24-0. They ran into Chicago that season and were soundly shutout 0-68 by Stagg and his team. Many of the top teams of the era owe a debt of gratitude to getting their foot in the door when Chicago had a bad season.

    conclusions – At first I was willing to put Illinois near the top of the list as they had a base to draw from (Chicago, Saint Louis, and Indianapolis), had early football success, and had a campus that did not share a city with a pro team (of Happy Valley, Columbus, Ann Arbor, Lincoln, Knoxville, Tuscaloosa, Austin, Norman, Los Angeles – for now, or South Bend). Madison, Champaign, Lafayette, and South Bend all could feed on the Chicago teat. Then I tried to factor in the University of Chicago and the effect it had on teams around the Chicago area (Northwestern, Illinois, Wisconsin, Purdue. Granted I am old, but not old enough to have seen Big 10 in from 1900 to 1940 live during this time. Here is a possible theory and I would welcome comment on my thoughts.

    but first I will put in some data for Wisconsin and Notre Dame

    Wisconsin – NOTE : where Chicago = UC, Michigan = UM
    1896 7-1-1, T Northwestern – Big 10 Champion
    1897 9-1, only loss coming to their own alumni – Big 10 Champion
    1898 9-1, L UC only loss
    1899 10-2, L UC and L Yale
    1900 8-1, L Minnesota
    1901 9-0 – Big 10 co champ
    1902, 1903, 1904 lost to UC, UM, Minnesota – in 1905 lost to UM & UC
    1906 5-0 Big 10 co champ – DNP UC, UM, or Minnesota, same in 1907
    1908 5-1, L UC
    1909 3-1-1, L Minnesota T UC, 1910 1-2-2 lost to IU 😉
    1911 5-1-1, L UC T Minnesota
    1912 7-0, Big 10 Champion, beat UC & Minnesota
    1913 3-3-1 1914 4-2-1 1915 4-3 1916 4-2-1 1917 4-2-1 1918 3-3
    1919 5-2 1920 6-1 1921 5-1-1 1922 4-2-1 1923 3-3-1 1924 2-3-3
    1925 6-1-1 1926 5-2-1 1927 4-4 1928 7-1-1 1929 4-5 1930 6-2-1
    1931 5-4-1 1932 6-1-1 1933 2-5-1 1934 4-4 1935 1-7 1936 2-6
    1937 4-3-1 1938 5-3 1939 1-6-1 1040 4-4 1941 3-5 1943 1-9
    In 42 they went 8-1-1, L Iowa T Notre Dame 1944 3-6 1945 3-4-2
    During these years many Badger losses were to UC and Minnesota

    Notre Dame
    1887 – goes winless and 3 losses to michigan
    1889 – beats first Big 10 team (Nortwestern)
    1893 – 4-1, only loss to UC
    1896 4-3, L UC L PU
    1897 4-1-1, L UC
    1898 4-2 DNP UC, L UM L IU 😉
    1899 6-3-1, L UC L UM T PU
    1900 6-3-1, L UM L Minnesota L IU 😉 DNP UC
    1901 8-1-1, L Northwestern 0-2
    1902 6-2-1, L UM T PU
    1903 8-0-1, T Northwestern 0-0
    1904 5-3, L Wisconsin L KU L PU – DNP UM or UC
    1905 5-4, L Wisconsin L PU L IU 😉 – DNP UM or UC
    1906 6-1, L IU 🙂 😉 !! DNP UM or UC
    1907 6-0-1, T IU 😉 DNP UM or UC
    1908 8-1, L UM DNP UC
    1909 7-0-1, W UM DNP UC
    1910 4-1-1 starts scheduling regional / national teams, stops Big 10
    1911 6-0-2 1912 7-0 1913 7-0 (including 35-13 Army win, 14-7 PSU win, and 30-7 Texas win) 1914 6-2 1915 7-1, L Nebraska 19-20, W Army 7-0, Texas 36-7, Rice 55-2 1916 8-1, L Army 10-30, W Nebraska, MSU 14-0 1917 6-1-1, L Nebraska 0-7, T Wisconsin 0-0, W Army 7-2, MSU 23-0 1918 3-1-2 Knute Rockne’s first Notre Dame team
    1919 9-0, ND’s #1 MNC, the rest is legend, lore, and legacy for ND

    IMHO I give Illinois and other’s benefit of doubt because of history

    Early on Chicago can use the Chicago hub to feed their football program as the surrounding Big 10 schools (Northwestern, Illinois, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Purdue, and Indiana) must make runs when U of Chicago is having a bad season. Then along comes upstart Notre Dame who is not limited to a Big 10 schedule and can draw a national audience by playing Army, Texas, and other top teams across the country. When Chicago gets out of football Notre Dame is there to fill the void. The city of Chicago will follow the Bears on the pro level and Notre Dame on the college level. From this point on the surrounding Big 10 schools will fight each other for the scraps and none will enjoy the single market status that will shine on Michigan via Detroit and Ohio State via the state of Ohio.

    I may go back and do Auburn, Kentucky, Georgia ??, NC State, UVA, Missouri, Pittsburgh, Maryland, Georgia Tech, and Vandy ?? (I saw many vandy wins early on in the old SIAA when they played Texas)

    For now enjoy

    I am curious if you all think my thoughts on the Chicago market in general is accurate and holds water. If I made typos or clerical errors please keep in mind I am not happy with the 1 inch x 4 inch that I was working with in WordPress (and without certain command functions)

    If I do the other teams I will put it in the weekly Conference Count I have done in Franks earlier Poll Posts


    1. duffman

      ps some edits..

      Word Press took out the 4 blank lines I but between each team, and it deleted the Dana Bible to Bear Bryant period for TAMU

      [TAMU decision failure #3] – [TAMU not retaining Dana Bible]

      1917 TAMU 8-0 (3-0 SWC CC) – outscored opponents 270 – 0
      1918 TAMU 6-1 (lost to UT 0-7) while Bible flew a plane in WWI
      1919 TAMU 10-0 (4-0 SWC CC) back from the war and went 275 -0
      1920 TAMU 6-1-1 (5-1 SWC L to UT 3-7) – tied LSU 0-0
      1921 TAMU 6-1-2 (3-0-2 SWC CC, tied Rice and UT) – L to LSU, 0-6
      Met former TAMU coach Charley Moran and his defending National Champion Centre College team in the Dixie Classic [the forerunner of the Cotton Bowl] and the birth of the “12th man” via E King Gill. TAMU carried the game 22-14, and the famous tradition was born.
      1922 TAMU 5-4, 1923 TAMU 5-3-1, 1924 TAMU 7-2-1
      1925 TAMU 7-1-1 (4-1 SWC CC, L to Rice) – tied Sewanee
      1926 TAMU 5-3-1, 1928 TAMU 5-4-1
      1927 TAMU 8-0-1 (4-0-1 SWC CC, T with TCU

      Having a coach around that in 2 seasons can score over 500 points to zero by your opponents is impressive. Winning 5 Conference Championships and 2 MNC’s in 11 seasons is also quite impressive. Being the coach when your schools most famous tradition is born! Priceless! For whatever reason they did not retain Dana Bible’s services, TAMU’s competition was not so picky. The Nebraska Cornhuskers put him to work in 1929 where he took Big Red to 6 Big Six Conference Championships in 8 years. He finished 4th in 1930, and second in 1934. During these same 8 years TAMU went 5-4, 2-7, 7-3, 4-4-2, 6-3-1, 2-7-2, 3-7-0, and 8-3-1, and never finished higher than 3rd in the SWC.

      What could be worse you say? After Nebraska, Charlie Bible became the head coach at TAMU rival UT. While there, he lost to TAMU 2 out of the first 3 years before beating TAMU the next 7 seasons for a 8-2 record against his former employer. During this time he took the longhorns to 3 Cotton Bowls, 3 SWC CC’s and 2 second place SWC finishes. It is bad when you have a Hall of Fame coach and you do not take the necessary steps to keep him. This is not the first time TAMU made this error, nor would it be the last!

      [TAMU decision failure #3a] – [TAMU and the late Homer Norton]

      Homer Norton arrives at TAMU and goes 2-7-2, 3-7, 8-3-1, 5-2-2, and 4-4-1 in his first five years before the football gods smile down on him, while at the same time poor Bernie Bierman and his golden gophers will have their first losing season together in about a decade of Big 10 dominance. While the gopher faithful must have been mystified by their season of 3-4-1, try not to feel bad because 1940 and 1941 would see the gophers have back to back perfect seasons capped off by 2 MNC’s. Meanwhile, back at College Station the gophers year is manna for TAMU.

      1939 11-0 with a 1 point win over Tulane in the Sugar Bowl 14-13
      1940 9-1 (L to UT) 1 point win vs Fordham in the Cotton Bowl 13-12
      1941 9-2 (L to UT) 8 point loss to Alabama in the Cotton Bowl 21-29

      TAMU 42′ 4-5-1, 43′ 7-2-1, 44′ 7-4, 45′ 6-4, 46′ 4-6, 47′ 3-6-1

      Homer gave TAMU the second most wins in their football history while winning 3 SWC CC’s and a MNC. Homer wound up in the Hall of Fame, but after 8 straight losses to UT at the hands of former TAMU coach Dana Bible, the folks at TAMU fired him!

      [TAMU decision failure #4] – [TAMU not retaining Paul Bryant]

      1954 1-9 (0-6) Paul Bryant arrives at College Station
      1955 7-2-1 (4-1-1, T Arkansas L UT) – Loss at UCLA
      1956 9-0-1 (6-0 SWC CC) – T with Houston 1-9 –> 9-1 in 2 years!
      1957 8-3 (4-2, L Rice L UT) – lost Gator Bowl to Tennessee 0-3

      At his previous job he took football failure Kentucky to 4 bowls in 8 years, when there were few bowls and it was a big deal to be invited. I guess all that is for naught if you lose to UT 3 out of 4 games. It is not like Bryant was not already a proven commodity, but you must wonder what took him from a future at TAMU to a legacy at Alabama.
      some of the text in word wrap did not look like I tried to get it to look when I did it 😦


      1. bullet

        Moran and Sherrill had cheating issues. Of course, when Moran did it, a lot of schools did.

        Slocum didn’t beat UT enough for them and wasn’t embarrassing enough. He was a class act and an underrated fb coach. I was flipping around on TV one time and caught bonfire (The Aggie pep rally and log burning before the UT game). Slocum was very classy. Then the President came on and said something like, “We’ll kick those teasips asses and they’ll drive back to Austin in their little cars (implication-little foreign cars instead of pickups) with their tail between their legs.” And most Aggies wouldn’t understand why that was embarrassing coming from the university president.


        1. duffman


          thank you for the background on Moran. Did he have cheating problems at both TAMU and Centre? I could not understand the Slocum thing as well! Bryant to Alabama and Bible to Nebraska seemed to stick out as well.


          1. bullet

            Rules were a little looser in the 20s. Moran hauled a bunch of young men from Ft. Worth with him up to Danville and created a winner at Centre. As I recall from that book Loki and I discussed (“Strange but True Football Stories”-great read if you find it), some of them were mid-20s at the time. But he apparently really stretched the rules at A&M. Don’t know the history on Dana Bible. I think Bryant had the same attitude as Darrel Royal did at Mississippi State. He wanted to be at a U. of, not a State U.


          2. bullet

            I know there was some controversy when Bible was hired at UT. He got paid more than the university president (back when that was unusual). He was the one who took UT from a solid program (albeit in a slump when he came in) to nationally recognized.

            To show how things change-the last 7 of his 10 years at Texas (after he got the program turned around) he had 9 losses and a tie in the SWC, 4 to Rice, 4 to TCU, 1 to SMU, tie to Baylor. He swept Arkansas and A&M. He also beat OU 7 straight years. His non-conference losses were to Northwestern, Southwestern (small private school just north of Austin), Randolph Field and Oklahoma St.


          3. loki_the_bubba

            Another interesting tidbit. Texas tried to hire the first Rice President, E.O. Lovett, away. When he went to interview and saw how much they paid the football coach, he declined.


          4. duffman

            bullet and loki,

            somewhere in all the stuff I browsed through one of the coaches (not UT or TAMU got a salary and 30% of the gate! Since Bible put Nebraska on the map between TAMU and UT it would be interesting to know why he moved several times in his career! Especially as he had the midas touch wherever he went. You guys may have a better feel as stories about Bible may still float around down there.


          5. bullet

            There’s a little on Bible in some of my Texas books(This info from Maher & Bohls “Long Live the Longhorns”-1993 edition. He coached at Missippi College (12-8-3) and had wins over Tulane and Ole Miss. He coached freshman following Ole Miss’s coach to A&M. Actually was “loaned” to LSU as head coach for a few games. Then he spent 11 years at A&M (72-19-9). Doesn’t say why he left A&M, but he was well paid at UNL for his 8 years (50-15-7). It was probably for money.

            Then Texas wanted the best coach they could get after suffering 2 bad years in a row and went after Bible, offering him $15,000 in 1937, up from 12k at UNL. He was 63-31-3 in 10 years (55-15-2 over the last 7).


      2. m (Ag)

        I only have a few comments to add to your writeup. I don’t know specifics of most of that history:

        -A&M’s status as all white, all male military school until the early 60’s was probably helping and hurting it through the fist half of the century, and the changing circumstances may have affected how desirable the job was viewed by coaches. I don’t think its a coincidence the program had peaks right around WWI and WWII. By the mid-70’s the school had fully transformed to a large, co-ed state school with a Corps of Cadets. Since then, the football program has almost never had a losing record.

        -I’m pretty sure noone at A&M pushed Bear Bryant out the door. Bear actually had a famous quote on why he left A&M to go to his alma mater: “Momma called. And when Momma calls, you just have to come runnin’.”

        -Gene Stallings, 29 when he was hired, wasn’t a success at A&M. He was there 7 years, won the Cotton Bowl his 3rd year, but didn’t finish with a winning record any of his other 6 years. Again, this was the era the University’s identity was still in flux as it was adapting to its new status. Stallings left A&M after 1971 and went to the NFL. Only after a long run as an NFL assistant and Cardinals head coach, did he return to the college game in 1990 to success at Alabama.

        -As others have mentioned, Jackie Sherrill was nudged away after A&M was placed under 2 years probation.

        -I agree with you that not going to the SEC 20 years ago was a mistake (and I thought so then!). But then, I’m not a Texan. As a student at the time the Big 12 was formed, I was surprised how many people wanted the SWC to stay. Too few people around the University were ready for the big break that moving to the SEC would have represented. I think this past summer has shown the students and alumni are very ready for that break now.


        1. Bamatab

          Yep, Bryant played football at Bama. The exact quote was “I left Texas A&M because MY school called me. Mama called, and when Mama calls, then you just have to come running.”


          1. loki_the_bubba

            I always heard that he blamed the leak of the news for losing the 1957 NC at aTm. It hit the Houston papers the day before the Rice game and he was pissed. Rice beat the undefeated Aggies 7-6.


    2. loki_the_bubba

      All my work here has been for naught…

      #5 Texas A&M (TAMU)

      a) state size – #2, 25 million
      b) in state competition – Pro, Cowboys, Texans – D 1, U of Texas (UT), Texas Tech (TT), Baylor (BU), Houston, SMU, TCU, North Texas, UTEP


      1. duffman


        😦 😦 😦 😦

        MY DEEPEST APOLOGIES! especially when I went back and looked at Rice early on when I put this together!!!! The problem is I was using another posters mapping link for Texas (the state) and they had Houston in Houston! When I did the TAMU and UT data (and Rice while I was at it) it was about 3 am and looking at some data after awhile my old eyes were getting fuzzy. Still no excuse, and I would never knowingly short Rice on purpose!


          1. loki_the_bubba

            Also displays why ECU has a chip on their shoulder. Close to UNC and NCState, bigger than Wake and Duke.


          2. jj

            Don’t BYU and Utah look like a nice little outpost? I can’t believe how things went for BYU. I think if anyone can go independent, they are one, but still. Seems odd – I know all about the Sunday stuff, but it can always be worked out.


    3. StvInIL

      “I am curious if you all think my thoughts on the Chicago market in general is accurate and holds water.”
      Duffman you are amazing man. That’s a lot a good data and i learn something new all the time.
      As a lifelong Chicago Area guy I am aware of the name of Amos Alonzo Stagg and his connection to UC. I was not aware though about impact the UC football program may have had on the others. My world is Big Ten post 1975 or so. I think you have something there concerning the heavenly body that was The University of Chicago football. The other programs tended to rotate and fluctuate as a direct result of its orbit. Hence the impact on the University of Illinois must have been significant. I mean why go to Chambana when you could be a football start and get an education in you from or back yard at the UC?
      Your Notre Dame data did make sense as well. The Chicago and Northern Indiana area had a large number of Irish and Polish Catholics that may have gravitated to the Catholic university from their local parochial schools. Anyway when I was in high school it was ND and Michigan that would come in and take the guys they wanted and left the rest for some of the other schools in the big ten including Illinois. Academically and socially Illinois was a destination but football-wise not so much. There were also big 8 schools like Missouri and others supplementing their recruiting base here. Illinois was just one of many options and not the prime for a football player. They never recruited your truly but knew quite a few guys who got division I scholarships and this is my refference.


      1. bullet

        You comment also makes a point I was thinking about with the discussion of underachieving teams. In the Big 12, Texas and OU were down when A&M, KSU, CU were up and UNL was at a peak. Now CU is way down, A&M, KSU and UNL are down some and OU and Texas are doing great. In the Big 10, UM, OSU and PSU have generally not had good years at the same time. 1st OSU was down, then PSU, now UM. In the SEC, people were dogging UGA. They struggled when TN and UF were at their peaks. Alabama was down a little and LSU was way down during that time. TN crashed, Florida ebbed a little and UGA and LSU and Alabama rose. Everyone can’t be great at the same time.

        Why I think BE bb is a disaster. Its just too strong and the fb and bb schools need to split for the health of: their basketball programs.


    4. mnfanstc

      Great post, Duffman… a lot of good stats/info… thanks…

      Would LOVE for the Gopher’s to return to the status they once were… still holding my breath… good thing there are many shades of blue 😉


  7. Jay

    I disagree with the Illini pick and the NC State pick, but I wouldn’t bet on the Buckeyes with my own money. From what I’ve seen this season, Ohio State is the best team in the nation (man, I hope that jinxes them!) and they ought to win big but Tressel’s a classy coach that may let Illinois back enough to cover.

    I think VaTech is undervalued right now because of the JMU debacle. That loss was more of a product of the short week, being beaten up by those Broncos, the fact that they overlooked their opponent and that a lot of JMU players had chips on their shoulders.

    I don’t know what to make of the BC-Notre Dame game. I haven’t seen BC this year. I suspect the Irish will take ’em out though.

    I also like Northwestern favored by just 5.5 over the Gophers, Texas outright over Oklahoma (who is favored by 3.5), Tennessee getting 16.5 at LSU – which doesn’t have much of an offense and is headed to Florida next week so they may hold some things close to the chest.


    1. StvInIL

      BC vs. ND [ND 27- BC 13]
      I hear BC is having trouble scoring points and ND isn’t. I would go with ND because they are hungry for a win.
      Ohio State @. Illinois [OSU 27- IL 22]
      Ohio State will be a real season directional test for the Illini. The Illini should have their hand full keeping Pryor in the pocket in 3rd and long. The Illini will deliver the run game. The difference here is if the young Illini QB Nathan Scheelhaase can carry the illini in critical situations with his arm. Unless they are ahead the whole game I say no.
      Northwestern @ Minnesota [NU 34 – MN 20]
      The beautiful new diggs have not been much of a lucky charm for the gophers. This is a place where two intersecting lines head in diffractions. I say Wildcat QB Dan Persa has three TD passes with his name on it. And the run game for the wildcats wakes up a little for conference play.
      Michigan @ Indiana [IN 37 –UM 31] in OT
      In an exciting game the IU Run game hits its mark. And we know it’s the passing game that is the difference maker for IU. The UM defense exposure is complete but at least its early for them. Ben Chappell sends the IU faithful into a multiple Org in OT. Oh and DR continues his Heisman type numbers.
      Wisconsin @ Mich State [WI 28 – MSU 24]
      The team that controls the ball the most wins this one. I assume if your gonna control it you might as well score at the end of a 10 play drive.
      Purdue won’t lose this week. [blue plate special]
      Well I have pulled a couple of these narratives out my arse. Lets see what happens. I won’t. A friend just called at the last minute and asked me to help him move tomorrow.

      Maybe I have little faith but the Bears come home with a 4th quarter L.


  8. Pezlion

    Frank, et al

    There was an article in the NY Times yesterday discussing BTN money. It continues to show how big a role the BTN is going to play in the immediate future for college sports. Profits for the network have already doubled over 2009. That’s right, DOUBLED! Ad revenue is up 30%. Projected cash flow for 2010 is $75.9 million, up from $35.9 million in 2009. Also, the network paid the conference $72 million during the fiscal year ended June 2009; that’s $6 million per school plus a share to the league. I would guess once the June ’10 tax returns are available, that number will be up significantly.

    Frankly, I don’t buy Delaney’s remarks that the conference is done with expansion unless contacted by someone. There’s just too much money out there for the league. I think they’d love to have 2-4 more teams in place by the 2014-15 season in order to start negotiating new network deals.

    Here’s the article:


    1. schwarm

      JMO, but the addition of UNL and a CCG will generate buzz and ratings for a while. The other big targets, UT and ND, don’t appear to be options for the foreseeable future. The other potential additions talked about are not blockbusters, and can be added at any time. I think they will stand pat and wait for better opportunities to arise. The best, IMO, would be UNC, UVA, & Maryland. Not going to happen any time soon, but in a few years, who knows?


    2. aps

      Pezlion, I agree with you. As mentioned by many posters here, it is about market size and share. By expanding the foot print the Big Ten expands their region and number of viewers. This means more money.

      All one has to do is look at ESPN and their actions. ESPN views the Big Ten network as a competitor. All the Big Ten is doing is cutting out the middle man and gleaning the profits via advertising and money from cable companies. As the Big Ten grows (network as well), they expand their empire.

      A prime example is the amount of money they are making off of their network. And it can only go up. The difference between them and the rest of the conferences is only going to grow. By adding more teams, the gap is only going to get bigger.

      What is also going to play is what AAU universities with big research dollars are available that will also expand the Big Ten foot print. Football money is good BUT the real money is on the research side. So look at that is well when they expand.


      1. bullet

        The Montana President kind of makes that point about research. It even impacts the FCS schools.

        But the money doesn’t always have to go up. Some people thought that about the stock market. A lot of people thought that about the housing market. TV is a rapidly changing medium and there is definitely risk there. The Big 10 is assuming some of the risk that ESPN or syndicators do.


      2. Agreed, and that is where I think some people here don’t get it. “Brands” are nice, and any new Big Ten member better be at least competitive in football, but research money dwarfs football revenue.

        And for those who note that Michigan State was not an AAU member when the Big Ten offered an invitation, also note that it occurred about a decade before the CIC was founded. Criteria for membership is much different now.


          1. Alan from Baton Rouge

            Shouldn’t the ability to beat Tulane in Piscataway be a prerequisite for Big Ten membership consideration?

            Final – Tulane 17, Rutgers 14.


          2. jj

            Ha! Nice. Vincent is right about research though. that’s a biggie and why no one will ever leave b10. At least is so seems.


    3. mushroomgod

      Pez–I know the OSU AD said the BT was done unless they were contacted by other schools….I don’t think Delaney said that, unless I missed it…..

      I’m sure that Delaney would add Rutgers right away if he could…..he is salivating over the NY market and PSU/OSU/UM playing games in NY and NJ


      1. Richard

        I think he’d add Rutgers only if another big fish (at the very least a medium-sized fish) also came aboard. Otherwise, we’d have already added Rutgers by now.

        I think the Big10’s view (which I think is correct) is that brands matter more than locale. To win over NYC, you’d need top brands more than Rutgers.


  9. Playoffs Now

    Wow, check out the Air Force helmets on Versus right now. Close up isn’t a big deal, but on the wide shots it looks like an optical illusion, like a bad colorization attempt on Turner Classic Movies. At first I thought they were filming the game with a bad cell phone.


    1. ChicagoRed


      Texas has had a pretty fair run…being rated every week since 2000…not too shabby.

      From where I sit, this is mostly Vince Young-Colt McCoy withdrawal symptoms.


  10. Hank

    Bobby Knight speaks:

    As for Notre Dame, Knight said the Irish, an independent in football and Big East member in other sports, should join the Big Ten. He referred to a couple of players from the gold-medal winning 1984 Olympic team: Sam Perkins of North Carolina and Chris Mullin of St. John’s.

    “They were two smart Catholic boys,” Knight said. “They should advise Notre Dame to go in the Big Ten, because there are some dumb Catholic boys up there. They have no idea how much it would change their recruiting.”


  11. Alan from Baton Rouge

    Congrats to the Northwestern Wildcats for landing in the #25 spot in the Coaches’ poll.

    SEC – #1 Bama, #8 Auburn, #9 LSU, #12 Florida, #13 Arkansas, #20 South Carolina.

    Big Ten – #2 Ohio St., #15 Iowa, #16 Michigan St., #17 Michigan, #19 Wisconsin, #25 Northwestern.

    Big XII – #6 Nebraska, #7 Oklahoma, #21 Oklahoma St., #22 Missouri.

    Pac 10 – #3 Oregon, #11 Arizona, #18 Stanford.

    MWC – #5 TCU, #10 Utah

    WAC – #4 Boise St., #23 Nevada.

    ACC – #14 Miami, #24 Florida St.

    Big East – none


    1. Richard


      I’m still cheering for 3 unbeaten (present or future) Big10 teams: OSU, Nebraska, and NU/MSU (it could also be UNL, Michigan, and NU, but um, that’s not happening).

      What a clusterf*ck that would be if you also had the SEC champ, Boise, and maybe even TCU/Utah unbeaten as well. Especially if Oregon St. & VTech win their conferences (Oregon St. has to visit Stanford but have both Oregon & USC at home; VTech has to visit Miami, so that’s a little tougher).


    2. Michael in Indy

      LSU #9? The team that squeaked by an utterly-depleted UNC team? The team that was gifted the Tennessee game?

      I think the SEC in general is treated the same way Notre Dame used to get treated. SEC Teams are voted highly because they’re the SEC. As far as I can tell, SEC teams have proven next-to-nothing against teams that aren’t also in the SEC. Granted, Alabama killed Penn State at home and would do the same to just about anyone. Otherwise, what’s so special about the league this year? At home in overtime, Auburn squeaked by Clemson from the oh-so-terrible ACC. LSU, Florida, and Kentucky beat some Big East teams (WVU, USF, and Louisville, respectively), but EVERYONE has beaten Big East teams this year.

      One team doesn’t make an entire conference great. No one ever talked about how great the ACC was when FSU was rattling off 11-1 seasons. Same for Miami in its Big East days. So when no SEC teams other than Alabama are doing anything impressive to teams outside their own league THIS YEAR, why is the league still given so much credit?


      1. Alan from Baton Rouge

        Michael – I’m glad you brought that up. Teams play to win games. LSU is 5-0. LSU is the only team that is 3-0 in the SEC. Every team that LSU has played is from an BCS-AQ conference. Both of the OOC teams LSU played were ranked at the time.

        LSU is a young, talented team. Its defense and special teams are among the very best in the country. Steven Ridley leads the SEC in rushing yards. But LSU’s quarterback situation is a grease-fire, and it has been for 2 and 1/2 years. If LSU had serviceable QB play, they would be a BCS contender.

        While most everyone dwells on the last-minute craziness of the Tennessee game, its amazing to me that LSU can give up 4 turnovers and get 100+ yards of penalties, and still be in the game at the end.

        Being a LSU fan with (Ohio native and Michigan grad) Les Miles as HC has been both frustrating and exhilarating. He’s won games LSU should have lost and lost a few that LSU should have won. But he has LSU’s highest all-time winning percentage, three top-5 finishes, a SEC championship and a BCS national championship.

        Regarding the SEC as a whole, let me remind you that the SEC has won 6 of the 12 BCS national championships, and is 6-0 in BCS NCGs. In 19 BCS appearances, the SEC has a .737 winning percentage. The Pac-10 is 2nd with a .615 winning percentage in 14 apps. The Big East is .500 in 12 apps, while the Big Ten is .476 in 21 apps. The Big XII is at .438 with 17 apps, and the ACC is at .167 with 12 apps. The SEC gets the benefit of the doubt because it usually wins the biggest games at the end of the season.

        If you look at the SEC’s 6 ranked teams, they have a combined 3 losses (Alabama has defeated Arkansas and Florida, and Auburn defeated South Carolina). Unlike most other conferences, every SEC team has played at least 2 conference games.

        Against BCS-AQ conferences, the SEC is 7-4. Of the 4 losses, Vandy has two of them (Northwestern & UConn). UGA lost to Colorado and Tennessee lost to Oregon. UGA & Tenn are looking at their worst seasons in a long, long time. SEC teams still have OOC games against Florida State, Clemson, Georgia Tech, and Wake Forest.


        1. bullet

          Rather interesting numbers on ooc vs. FBS teams so far. Obviously strength of schedule isn’t factored in, but there is a pretty big split after the top 3.
          Big 12 85.7%
          SEC 81.8%
          B10 78.1%
          Pac10 58.3%
          ACC 50.0%
          Indys 46.1%
          WAC(!) 44.8%
          BE 41.7%
          MWC 40.7%
          CUSA 38.7%
          MAC 18.2%
          SB 8.3%
          (note FCS is 8.6% vs. FBS-better than SB)


        2. duffman


          I am already on the LSU bus and have been in my past weeks post. What people are missing right now is they are the sleeping tigers. They hit hard, and play defense. Sure they have no offense, but if they wake up and just take it up one notch, they are not to be discounted. Sure, everybody makes a big deal about Alabama, but the team that has wound up playing for the NC from the SEC was not the front runner at the start of the season.

          Sure they must travel to the swamp, auburn, and arky, but the rest of their schedule is at home, and I think they have a week off before they take on the tide. Every now and again I see that wacky UK play, and now they have the UT game to add to their “blessed” status. Sure they could blow up any week, but right now they are Calvin Borell just biding their time.


  12. Alan from Baton Rouge

    Looking ahead to Week #6, there are only 4 games between teams ranked in the AP poll.

    #1 Alabama @ #19 South Carolina
    #12 LSU @ #14 Florida
    #23 Florida St @ #13 Miami
    #17 Michigan St @ #18 Michigan

    Other potentially interesting games include:

    Indiana (3-1) @ #2 Ohio St
    #7 Nebraska @ Kansas St (4-0)
    Oregon St (2-2) @ #9 Arizona
    #10 Utah @ Iowa St (3-2)
    #11 Arkansas v. Texas A&M (3-1) at Jerry World
    USC (4-1) @ #16 Stanford
    Colorado (3-1) @ #24 Mizzou
    Purdue (2-2) @ #25 Northwestern


    1. Bamatab

      ESPN Gameday will be at South Carolina this week. I was kind of suprised. I figured that they would choose the Michigan/MSU game since there would be more storylines for that game.


      1. Hank

        Chris Fowler has been quoted as saying Gameday will never return to Ann Arbor. I’m sure they will eventually but it may take awhile. And why don’t they want to return? The last time they were there I believe was the Ohio State game in 2007 and apparently a number of the locals took constant vocal and colorful exception to things Herbstreit and Corso has said that season. Also a certain segment of the student body developed astounding long range accuracy with thrown marshmallows which disrupted a number of segments despite a large security perimeter. But then again Herbie’s mellon makes an easy target. Fowler in particular was incensed and promised they would not return.

        So no Gameday for awhile. But then apparently Sports Nation was very tentative about including Ann Arbor on their recent Big Ten tour and afterwards were vocal about how well it went. So a thaw may be coming.


        1. StvInIL

          Thanks to the BTN, I stopped watching this show anyway. Corso is a pompus @ss taleing up a job from some other guy. Sure I checking from time to time, but its nice to have options.


  13. bullet

    Well I’m finally sold on Alabama. I thought they were overrated with all the defensive losses, but last year’s scrubs were, as some sportswriters said, really, really good. Their offense is still pretty pedestrian, but its good enough.

    Texas is finally underrated at #26. Nothing they have done has convinced me TCU, UNL and OU aren’t still overrated. I still expect those 3 to slip up at least once and probably more than once.

    Oregon isn’t missing last year’s QB and Ole Miss hasn’t been transformed by him. I thought they would be good, but now instead of Ohio St.-Boise St. in the championship game, I’m leaning toward Alabama-Oregon as most likely. Both have chances to slip up next week, so we will know a little more about both soon.


    1. Richard

      I don’t see Oregon making it through the Pac10 unbeaten. For that matter, I don’t see tOSU making it through the Big10 unbeaten. I’m still rooting for my dream matchup of ‘Bama-Boise.


    2. schwarm

      I’m hoping after their next game, they become the most underrated team of the Mack Brown era, and the first to lose three straight. A fitting going away present.


    3. schwarm

      Bullet, when I look at the teams behind OU, UNL, and TCU, I don’t see anything very compelling. Stanford, Wisconsin and Florida just lost, Arizona got pounded by UNL last year, LSU… uh yeah. Auburn looks good, Arkansas too, but they lost at home. I agree, though, that UNL and OU will probably not go undefeated.


      1. bullet

        schwarm, it does seem like a relatively weak year this year. There don’t seem to be as many outstanding QBs for one thing.

        Here’s how weak it is. If next week S. Carolina loses to Bama (probable) and FL to LSU (mild upset), Vanderbilt is in first in the SEC East.


      2. Bamatab

        I just don’t see anyone left on either of OU’s or UNL’s schedule that has me saying that they could lose a game until they meet in the Big 12 championship game. Same goes for Oregon in the Pac 10 with Kiffin now in charge of USC. I think there could very easily be 4 undefeated teams at the end of the year with Bama, OR, the OU/UNL winner, and Boise. A plus one game would be pretty neat if that occurred.


        1. Richard

          Oregon finishes at Oregon St. Rivalry game (series is dead even since 1998). Intimidating crowd (there was a stretch of 8 years where the home team won every single year). I wouldn’t be surprised if Oregon St. pulled the upset.

          As for UNL and OU, OU hasn’t looked impressive and UNL hasn’t played anybody yet. UNL goes to KSU (same team that beat UCLA, which undressed Texas), and they both have to visit OSU (for OU, a rivalry game). Both OU and UNL will be favored the rest of the way, but I wouldn’t be surprised if either or both stumbled once and got upset.


          1. schwarm

            UNL did crush Washington, who beat USC in LA. But when they only score 3 in a half with the starters in against an FCS team, it makes me think that one more bad day will be a loss. And Pelini’s teams to date have shown a tendency to go flat for a few games at mid season.


  14. bullet

    It will definitely be a challenge for Oregon to go unbeaten, but they have a way of turning on the accelerator in the 2nd half. In any event, I’m no longer convinced Boise gets in over a once beaten SEC or Pac 10 team. Its the what have you done for me lately syndrome. If the SEC,P10,B12,B10 school loses early enough and Nevada drops out of the rankings, Boise will start to fall out of everyone’s thoughts.


  15. Richard

    I don’t see Nevada dropping out of the rankings. They’re pretty darn good (they destroyed a Cal team that almost beat #9 Arizona), and the bottom of the WAC is pretty darn bad.

    As for a one-loss Pac10 team, depends on who they lose to. Obviously, any Pac10 team that loses to Oregon St. isn’t getting in over BSU (and of course, USC is inelgible, though with Boy Wonder coaching over there, we probably won’t have to consider the possibility of a one-loss USC).


  16. Playoffs Now

    Happy Pepto Bismol Awareness Month!

    We learned that TX sucks, FL sucks, LSU sucks, TTech sucks, aTm sucks, and Penn St really sucks. The B12-2 as a whole is so bad that Baylor has an actual shot at helping TCU’s SOS in the BCS.

    I hope Denard Robinson stays healthy, because he’s the clear front runner for the Heisman. Ingram winning it back to back would be a ridiculous joke (beyond the ridiculous joke that the Heisman already is.) As big a joke as Griffin’s 2nd.

    Am very tempted to think Oregon is finally for real, but this is still the P10. Gunshy after being fooled too many times by that usually defenseless league. Which I spent all Saturday night wishing TX had joined. Might force Mack to get a real OC…There’s just something awesome about watching a Stanford and Oregon shootout in Eugene’s unique stadium with the sun still up while its nighttime here.

    Right now I don’t think any team goes undefeated except for Boise and the TCU/Utah winner. That doesn’t mean that I think TCU is a Top 2 team, this whole BCS 2-spot beauty contest system is an abomination.

    I’ve already seen enough this year to know that there will be no way to pick the 2 best teams with anything close to honest certainty in December. Any champ this year is a fraud without at least an 8 team playoff (which could simply use the BCS bowls as the first round.) If we had a playoff, Oregon, Stanford, OU, Nebraska, Ohio St, Iowa, Alabama, Auburn, Arkansas, Boise, TCU,and Utah would all have a legitimate shot at winning a real title on the field. Don’t be shocked if Auburn plays in the SEC title game. And then some dumbass writers campaign for an Auburn-AL rematch in Glendale.

    TCU seems to be the best team in Texas. Rutger’s loss to Tulane surely helped the Frog’s chances at conference membership.

    If you look at the history of Mack Brown’s teams, the odds say TX bounces back and upsets NE. TX has a bye-week and then will come into Lincoln unranked, laughed at, coming off a 2-game losing streak, and the heavy underdogs. Shocking the Cornhuskers in their final meeting has to be their fans’ worst nightmare. And I bet it happens.


    1. schwarm

      UNL and their fans will not be laughing and will not care what UT is ranked. I think UNL handles KSU and UT, but then the real hype starts, and some potentially difficult games remain. aTm has their problems, but they have a good run defense, good skill people on offense, and when not giving the ball to the other team, JJ is quite accurate. That game will not be easy.


    2. Right now I don’t think any team goes undefeated except for Boise and the TCU/Utah winner.

      This might be the most interesting scenario which could realistically play out.

      I’ve been arguing that an undefeated Boise has a very realistic chance to play for it all: there’s no need for the chaos of a 2007 for it to happen. (For fun one day over at BON, I superimposed a theoretical BSU team from this season over each of the past 10 seasons, and came away with about a 60-65% chance that BSU would play for it all in any given season.)

      I also think an undefeated Boise gets the nod over an undefeated TCU this year.

      I also think that, if Boise does lose, an undefeated TCU seamlessly slips into BSU’s position for guesstamating purposes.

      But what if they’re the only two undefeated teams at the end of the season?

      It’s easy for me to see Boise getting the nod over any one-loss team (with the possible exception of a one-loss SEC champ), and it’s easy for me to see the same with TCU.

      But it’s hard for me to see both an undefeated BSU and an undefeated TCU getting the nod over everyone else, save a bunch of 2007-like chaos — and even then, there was still a one-loss Ohio State sitting there.

      If you’re a fan of chaos, that’s the scenario to root for.


      1. @Hopkins Horn – A factor that Boise State will need to be worried about is that the TCU/Utah winner is likely going to have better computer rankings with the stronger strength of schedule in the MWC. An undefeated MWC champ could very well (if not probably) jump Boise State in the final BCS rankings.


        1. Richard

          They better cheer for Oregon St. and VTech to win their conferences. Also Utah winning would be good; especially if they lose to ISU (and Pitt does badly).


        2. Yes, but I think there’s often too much focus on the importance of SOS for these scenarios. The SOS for the MWC champ will probably be higher, granted, but SOS is only part of the computer formula, and the computers are only one-third of the final computation.

          If Boise maintains its lead in front of the MWC champ in both human polls, I don’t think the SOS differential alone will be enough for the MWC champ to overtake Boise via computer strength at the end of the day.


      2. bullet

        Let’s say Alabama loses to Spurrier this weekend and runs the table. Oregon loses a close one to UCLA in 2 weeks and runs the table the way they have so far (including blasting Oregon St). I think there’s a good chance both end up ahead of Boise in the BCS and a fair chance they end up ahead in the polls. Now if they have a loss in November, I think Boise stays ahead in the polls enough to finish 1 or 2.

        Think about what happened to Texas 2 years ago. Texas played a murderer’s row early in the season and lost that Tech game late. OU played their toughest games at the end of the season and the pollsters forgot about Texas. Boise will have a better record, but it will also have the WAC anchor dragging it down.


      3. bullet


        I didn’t see anything on the BCS site last time I looked. Is the #1 vs. #2 poll override still in place? They set it up so that the computers get ignored if the two polls agree on #1 and #2. Is that still the case?

        That makes it a little more difficult for two 1 loss teams to pass Boise as the computers and at least 1 of the polls would have to knock them down to 3rd.


  17. duffman

    Follow up #1 follows the weekly update
    I made some changes to my original UNC data
    I did an ACC followup for UNC, NC ST, UVA, VT, MD, and GT
    I have added the loki helmet factor for forgetting Rice

    The Conference Count = realignment included

    Big 10 (7) = tOSU, UNL, Wisconsin, UM, Iowa, MSU, PSU = NC
    SEC (6) = BAMA, UF, Auburn, LSU, Arkansas, USC = NC
    Pac 10 (5) = Oregon, Stanford, Arizona, Utah, U$C = NC
    MWC (3) = Boise State, TCU, Nevada = NC
    LC (2) = OU, UT = NC
    ACC (2) = Miami, NC State = +1
    CUSA (0) = 0 = NC
    Ind (0) = 0 = NC
    BE (0) = 0 = -1
    Big 10

    the week of upsets! Illinois beats tOSU, MSU beats Wisconsin, PSU beats Iowa, IU beats UM, Minnesota beats NU – In bizzaro world, Purdue off


    Alabama vs Florida, LSU vs Vols for 5-0, UK vs Ole Miss for a win for the tailgaters, CU vs UGA!, Vandy vs Uconn, (USC+Arkansas = off)

    Pac 10

    Oregon vs Stanford, Go UW vs U$C, (Arizona+Cal+Utah = off)


    NC State tries for 5-0 vs Va Tech, Miami vs Clemson, FSU vs UVA, OOC the Irish battle the Eagles for catholic dominance in 2010, nobody off

    SWC vs Big 8

    Texas vs Oklahoma in the Red River Rivalry, (KSU+Mizz+UNL = off)


    #3 North Carolina

    a) state size – #10, 9.4 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Panthers – D 1, WF, ECU, NC ST, Duke
    c) school data – public, state, 1.9 B endowment, AAU, 18K U, 11K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 5 NC, 4 RU, 18 FF, 24 EE, 28 SS
    WCBB – 1NC, 3FF
    baseball – 2 RU, 8 CWS appearances
    softball –
    hockey –
    other – field hockey 6 NCAA, lacrosse 4 NCAA, soccer 20!! NCAA titles
    e) football

    loki helmet = Huge, Large, [Average], Small, Tiny
    conference rank – (ACC) #5 = avg 51,249
    stadium – 60K, 09 average = 56,607 (94% of capacity) max 62K 1997
    history –

    Note: Wc=conference win,Lc=conference loss,Wn=OoCWin,Ln=OoCLoss

    1892 – Independent 5-1, L UVA, W Duke, Auburn, Vandy, UVA
    1895 – SIAA 7-1-1 (3-0) CC, Wc UGA\VU\UGA Wn NC ST L\VT Ln UVA
    1898 – SIAA 9-0 (4-0) : W NC ST\VT\UGA\Auburn Wn UVA
    1900 – SIAA 4-1-3 (3-0) Wc VU\UGA\UT : T VT L UVA

    The SAIAA was formed in 1907 with UVA, VT, UNC, and NC ST. MD was added in 1918. The SAIAA was absorbed by the SoCon in 1922.

    1914 – SAIAA 10-1 (0-1) Lc UVA : W WF\USC\UGA\VU\VMI\WF
    1922 – SoCon 9-1 (5-0) CC, Wc USC\NC ST\MD\Tulane\UVA : Ln Yale
    1925 – SoCon 7-1-1 (3-0-1) Wc USC\NC ST\MD Tc UVA : W Duke L WF
    1929 – SoCon 9-1 (7-1) Wc MD\GT\VT\NC ST\USC\UVA\Duke : Lc UGA
    1934 – SoCon 7-1-1 (2-0-1) Wc Duke\UVA : T NC ST Wn WF\UK Ln UT
    1935 – SoCon 8-1 (3-1) Wc MD\NC ST\UVA Lc Duke : Wn WF\UT\GT
    1936 – SoCon 8-2 (4-1) Wc MD\NC ST\USC\UVA Lc Duke : L Tulane
    1937 – SoCon 7-1-1 (4-0-1) Wc NC ST\WF\Duke\UVA T USC: W Tulane
    1939 – SoCon 8-1-1 (3-1) Wc WF\VT\NC ST L Duke : T Tulane W UVA
    1946 – SoCon 8-2-1 (3-0-1) Wc MD\WF\Duke T VT : L UT\UGA W UVA
    1947 – SoCon 8-2 (3-1) Wc NC ST\MD\Duke Lc WF : L UTx W UVA\UT
    1948 – SoCon 9-1-1 (4-0) Wc WF\NC ST\MD\Duke : L OK W UVA\UTx
    1949 – SoCon 7-4 (4-0) Wc NC ST\USC\WF\Duke : L LSU\UT\ND\RICE
    1963 – ACC 9-2 (6-1) Lc Clemson : W Air Force => Gator – Jim Hickey
    1971 – ACC 9-3 (6-0) : Ln Tulane\ND : L UGA => Gator – Bill Dooley
    1972 – ACC 11-1 (6-0) : Ln tOSU W : Texas Tech => Sun – Bill Dooley
    1976 – ACC 9-3 (4-1) Lc NC ST : L : UK => Peach – Bill Dooley
    1977 – ACC 8-3-1 (5-0-1) L : Nebraska => Liberty – Dooley to VT
    1980 – ACC 11-1 (7-0) Ln OK: W : Texas => Bluebonnet – Dick Crum
    1981 – ACC 10-2 (6-1) Lc Clemson W : Arkansas =>Gator – Dick Crum
    1993 – ACC 10-3 (6-2) Lc FSU\UVA : L : Bama => Gator – Mack Brown
    1996 – ACC 10-2 (6-2) Lc FSU\UVA : W : WVA => Gator – Mack Brown
    1997 – ACC 11-1 (7-1) Lc FSU: W: VT => Gator–Mack Brown to UTexas

    conclusions – Basketball school in a basketball conference – and a dominate women’s soccer program! Even being as generous as possible, no one would accuse UNC of being a football superpower. They do not even have an early history of dominance in the sport. Splitting a decent size state with 5 D1 teams and a pro team does not help especially given the history of football in the ACC. I could see them possibly in the Top 5 but an can argue as many reasons for them not to make the list.


    North Carolina State

    a) state size – #10, 9.4 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Panthers – D 1, WF, ECU, UNC, Duke
    c) school data – public, state, .5 B endowment, 24K U, 7K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 2 NC, 3 FF, 6 EE, 9 SS
    WCBB – 1 FF, 2 EE, 14 SS
    baseball – 2 RU, 8 CWS appearances
    softball –
    hockey –
    other – cross country, swimming and diving
    e) football

    loki helmet = Huge, Large, [Average], Small, Tiny
    conference rank – (ACC) #5 = avg 51,249
    stadium – 58K, 09 average = 56,422 (97% of capacity) max 58K
    history –

    Note: Wc=conference win,Lc=conference loss,Wn=OoCWin,Ln=OoCLoss

    Independent 1892 1-0, 1893 2-0, 1896 1-0
    1905 SIAA 4-1-1 : Wn VMI\USC\W&L : Ln UVA : Tn UNC

    The SAIAA was formed in 1907 with UVA, VT, UNC, and NC ST. MD was added in 1918. The SAIAA was absorbed by the SoCon in 1922.

    1907 SAIAA 6-0-1 (1-0) Wc UVA
    1908 SAIAA 6-1 (1-1) Wc VT Lc UVA
    1909 SAIAA 6-1 (0-1) Lc VT : Wn UK\MD\W&L
    1910 SAIAA 4-0-2 (1-0) Wc VT : W WF : T Georgetown\Villanova
    1913 SAIAA 6-1 Wn Georgetown\WF\W&L : L VMI
    1917 SAIAA 6-2-1 (0-0-1) T VT : Wn WF\MD\VMI : Ln W&L\WVA
    1919 SAIAA 7-2 (1-1) Wc VT : Lc UNC : Wn VMI\WF : Ln Navy
    1920 SAIAA 7-3 (2-0) Wc UNC\VT : Wn Navy\WF : Ln Gtown\PSU\VMI
    1927 SoCon 9-1 (4-0) Wc Clemson\Florida\UNC\USC : Ln Furman
    1932 SoCon 6-1-2 (3-1-1) Wc Clemson\Florida\Duke : Lc UNC Tc USC
    1944 SoCon 7- 2 (0-2) Lc Clemson\WF : Wn UVA\VMI\Miami (FL)
    1946 SoCon 8-3 (4-1) Wc Duke\Clemson\WF\MD Lc VT : Ln VU\OK

    Earl Edwards: 1954-1970 – 5 ACC Championships, 0 MNC, 77-88-8
    1957 ACC 7-1-2 (5-0-1) T Duke : W FSU\VT : T Miami (FL)
    1963 ACC 8-3 (6-1) Lc UNC: Wn VT: L FSU: L Mississippi St => Liberty
    1967 ACC 9-2 (5-1) Lc Clemson : W FSU : Ln PSU : W UGA => Liberty
    1968 ACC 6-4 (6-1) Lc Clemson : Ln OK\SMU\FSU : ACC Champions

    Lou Holtz: 1972-1975 – 1 ACC Championship, 33-12-3 => Arkansas
    1972 ACC 8-3-1 (4-1-1) Lc UNC Tc MD: L UGA\PSU: W WVA => Peach
    1973 ACC 9-3 (6-0, CC) Ln UNL\UGA\PSU : W Kansas => Liberty
    1974 ACC 9-2-1 (4-2) Lc UNC\MD: W PSU: T Houston => Bluebonnet
    1975 ACC 7-4-1 (2-2-1) Lc WF\MD T Duke: L MSU L WVA => Peach

    Bo Rein 1976 => hired by LSU, Died plane crash Woody Hays: eulogy
    1977 ACC 8-4 (4-2) Lc UNC\Clemson : L ECU\PSU: W ISU =>Peach
    1978 ACC 9-3 (4-2) Lc MD\Clemson : L PSU: W Pitt => Tangerine
    1979 ACC 7-4 (5-1) Lc UNC : L Auburn\USC\PSU: ACC Champion

    Dick Sheridan 1986-1992 -(2) 7 win, (2) 8 win, (2) 9 win = ????
    1991 ACC 9-3 (5-2) Lc Clemson\UVA: Wn VT\USC: L ECU => Peach
    1992 ACC 9-3-1 (6-2) Lc FSU\GT Wn Iowa: T VT: L Florida => Gator

    1994 ACC 9-3 (6-2) Lc UNC\FSU Ln UL: W Mississippi State => Peach
    2002 ACC 11-3 (5-3) Lc GT\MD\UVA Wc FSU\Clemsn: W ND =>Gator

    NCST coach/program analysis

    Never a football superpower and a stepping stone job. Lou Hotlz went on to Arkansas, and Bo Rein was hired by LSU (but died in a tragic plane crash before coaching a game). Earl Edwards had a long and decent career, but followed by Al Michaels and Lou Holtz, NC ST never jumped to the next level. Monte Kiffin coached there before following his son to UT and USC. Dick Sheridan won 6 SoCon titles at Furman before 7 decent years at NC ST. Mike O’Cain went on to be the QB coach at Va Tech, and current coach Tom O’Brien had success at Boston College.

    conclusions – For those old enough to remember the tobacco road rivalry between NC ST and UNC. Everett Case left Indiana and brought basketball to the ACC (1946-1965), followed by Norm Sloan (1967-1980) , and Jim Valvano (1980-1990). While most think of UNC vs Duke, it is a modern rivalry that filled the NC ST void left by Jim Valvano. NC ST has had some good football years and some bad ones as well, but the ACC split from the SEC because of limited success of current ACC football schools against current SEC football schools. At best a second tier football school, with dips into third tier territory. Splitting a decent size state with 5 D1 teams and a pro team does not help especially given the history of football in the ACC.


    University of Virginia

    a) state size – #12, 7.9 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Redskins, Ravens – D 1, Va Tech
    c) school data – public, state, 4.5 B endowment, 14K U, 6K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 2 FF, 5 EE, 7 SS
    WCBB – 3 FF, ?? EE, ?? SS
    baseball – 1 CWS appearance
    softball –
    hockey –
    other – soccer 6 NCAA titles, 9 NCAA lacrosse titles, rowing, tennis
    e) football

    loki helmet = Huge, Large, [Average], Small, Tiny
    conference rank – (ACC) #5 = avg 51,249
    stadium – 62K, 09 average = 47,986 (77% of capacity) max ??K
    history –

    Note: Wc=conference win,Lc=conference loss,Wn=OoCWin,Ln=OoCLoss

    Independent 1888 2-1, 1889 5-2, 1896 1-0, 1890 5-2, 1893 8-3 (includes a win against VMI that VMI quit due to suspicion of UVA fixing the game, ironic as both schools have an honor code), 1894 8-2, 1895 9-3 (includes Navy forfeit due to a fire), 1896 7-2-2, 1897 6-2-1, 1900 7-2-1, 1901 8-2, 1902 8-1-1, 1903 7-2-1, 1904 6-3, 1906 7-2-2. John Poe coached 2 seasons and had 8 wins in both (93 & 94). Harry Mackey only coached the 1895 season. Wesley Abbott only coached the 1901 season. John de Saulles only coached the 1902 season (he would later be murdered by his heiress wife in a love triangle with Rudolph Valentino). The 1904 team was coached by George Sanford who would coach Rutgers for 11 seasons including – 7-1, 7-1-1, 7-1-1 seasons.

    The SAIAA was formed in 1907 with UVA, VT, UNC, and NC ST. MD was added in 1918. The SAIAA was absorbed by the SoCon in 1922.

    1908 SAIAA 7-0-1 (2-0) Wc NC ST\UNC => SAIAA Champ: T Sewanee
    1909 SAIAA 7-1 (0-0) Wn Navy\VMI\Georgetown – Coach – John Neff
    1910 SAIAA 6-2 (1-0) Wc UNC : Wn VMI : Ln Georgetown – C Crawford
    1911 SAIAA 8-2 (1-0) Wc UNC : Wn VMI\WF: Ln Georgetown – C Yancy
    1912 SAIAA 6-3 (1-0) Wc UNC : Wn USC : Ln Georgetown\VMI\VU
    1913 SAIAA 7-1 (1-0) Wc UNC : Wn USC\VMI\UGA\VU: Ln Georgetown
    1914 SAIAA 8-1 (1-0) Wc UNC : Wn USC\UGA\VU : Ln Yale
    1915 SAIAA 8-1 (1-0) Wc UNC : Wn Yale\UGA\VMI\VU\USC: L Harvard

    While in the SAIAA, they had a lopsided win ratio with UNC, and never appeared to play fellow conference members NC ST and Va Tech

    SoCon 1925 7-1-1 (3-0-1) Wc UGA\MD\VT : T UNC : Wn VMI\W&L
    The 25′ teams coach was AE ‘greasy’ Neale => Eagles = 2 NFL champ

    After poundings by future SEC teams UVA goes Independent in 1938

    Independent 1941 8-1 W VMI\VT\W&L\UNC : L Yale
    Independent 1944 6-1-2 W WVA\VMI\MD\UNC : L NC ST : T Yale
    Independent 1945 7-2 W NC ST\VMI\VT\WVA\ : L MD\UNC

    Arthur Guepe 46-52 (47-17-2) Hired => Vandy => W Gator Bowl 55′
    Independent 1947 7-3 W VT\Hrvrd\W&L\VMI\WVA L Penn\NC ST\UNC
    Independent 1949 7-2 W VT\W&L\VMI\WVA\Penn : L Tulane\UNC
    Independent 1950 8-2 W VT\W&L\VMI\WVA\UNC : L Tulane\Penn
    Independent 1951 8-1 W VT\VMI\Duke\UNC\USC : L W&L
    Independent 1952 8-2 W VU\VT\VMI\UNC\W&L : L Duke\USC

    Ben Martin 56-57, hired => Air Force => Cotton, Gator, Sugar
    Richard Voris 58-60, 1-29, ESPN listed him as 10th worst all time
    Bill Elias 61-64, 16-23-1 => Navy => 11-23-3
    George Blackburn 65-70, 7-1-1 Miami OH, 25-27-6 UC, 29-32 UVA
    Don Lawrence 72-73, 8-14 => NFL Bills = 90-93, 2 World Bowl rings
    Sonny Randle 74-75, 5-17, came from (2) 9-2 seasons at ECU
    Dick Bestwick 75-81, 16-49-1 => ED Peach Bowl, AAD, USC & UGA

    George Welsh 82-00, from Navy, 2 ACC Championships, 12 Bowl bids
    1984 8-2-2 (3-2-2) Lc Clemson\MD Tc GT\UNC W Purdue => Peach
    1987 8-4 (5-2) Lc MD\Clemson : Ln UGA\USC : W BYU => AA Bowl
    1989 10-3 (6-1) Lc Clemson Wn PSU\UL\VT Ln ND L Illinois => Citrus
    1990 8-4 (5-2) Lc GT\MD : Wn KU\Navy L VT : L Tennessee => Sugar
    1991 8-3-1 (4-2-1) Lc MD\GT T Clemson W Navy\KU L OK => Gator
    1994 9-3 (5-3) Lc FSU\Duke\NC ST W Navy: W TCU => Independence
    1995 9-4 (7-1) Lc UNC : Ln Michigan\Texas\VT : W Georgia => Peach
    1998 9-3 (6-2) Lc GT\FSU : Wn Auburn\SJST\VT : L Georgia => Peach

    Al Groh 01-09, 59-53 hired from Wake Forest where he went 26-40!
    2002 9-5 (6-2) Lc FSU\GT : Wn USC: Ln CSU\PSU\VT: W WVA => Tire
    2007 8-5 (6-2) Lc NC ST\VT Wn Pitt\Uconn L Wyoming L TT => Gator

    Mike London 2010, ?-?, prev Richmond Spiders 13-3 & 11-2 in 2yrs

    UVA coach/program analysis

    William Cole would leave UVA after 2 seasons (05 & 06) to coach Nebraska for 4 seasons (07-10) where he would win 2 conference championships while going 25-8-3. They have a series of good years with 1 and done coaches before entering the SoCon where they get destroyed that they go independent and wait for the ACC to form. Once in they ACC it looks like management by the 3 stooges. They fail to keep good coaches that go onto better careers, and hire some totally terrible coaches. The football gods bless them George Welsh to bring back UVA from the dead to where they are a decent to good program with a future (see quote below) of better things to come.

    “George Welsh an All-American quarterback graduated USNA in 56′. He was assistant coach under Rip Engle & JoPa at PSU (63-72). He began his head coaching career at Navy in 1973, leading the Midshipmen to 3 bowl games and their first nine-win season in 16 years. He became the school’s winningest coach (55-46-1) in nine seasons at the helm.

    Welsh left Navy to coach UVA in 1982. UVA had only 2 winning seasons in the previous 29 years and zero bowl games. He quickly improved the program, and won the Peach Bowl in 1984. UVA started a conference record streak of 13 straight seasons with 7+ wins in 1987. This stretch included shared ACC titles in 89′ & 95′ and 12 bowl games. In 19 years at the helm, Welsh became the winningest coach in UVA & ACC history.

    Welsh ranked as the all-time winningest coach in ACC history at his retirement. He was surpassed by Bobby Bowden of FSU, but remains the winningest coach in UVA history. He was named ACC Coach of the Year four times (83,84,91,95) and National Coach of the Year one time (91). 189 career victories rank him 24th in Division I-A history. He was inducted to the College Football Hall of Fame in 2004.”

    conclusions – While UVA does not have a large student body for a state school they do have access to players in the North Carolina – Maryland corridor. They do have early success in the sport even tho changing coaches every year is usually not a good plan. I take issue with scheduling only UNC (who they beat up on during this period) and not once playing fellow conference members VT and NC ST once. Decisions after WW II are a comedy of errors, yet they still get George Welsh who takes them into respectability in the modern era. Right when they have a real chance to make the jump to a top tier program, they go back to their old ways. While I still put TAMU in the #1 spot, UVA needs to be in the top 5 with them.


    Virginia Tech

    a) state size – #12, 7.9 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Redskins, Ravens – D 1, UVA
    c) school data – public, state, .5 B endowment, 24K U, 7K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 1 EE, 1 SS
    WCBB – 1 SS
    baseball – ? CWS appearance
    softball – 1 CWS appearance
    hockey – ACCHL hockey team
    other – soccer, golf
    e) football

    loki helmet = Huge, [Large], Average, Small, Tiny
    conference rank – (ACC) #5 = avg 51,249
    stadium – 66K, 09 average = 66,233 (100% of capacity) max ??K
    history –

    Note: Wc=conference win,Lc=conference loss,Wn=OoCWin,Ln=OoCLoss

    94 L VMI, 95 L UVA\UNC, 96 L UVA\UT T UNC, 97 L MD\UT, 98 L UNC\MD, 99 L UVA, 00 L UVA\Clemson\VMI T UNC, 02 L W&L\UVA T UNC, 04 L UNC\UVA\Navy, 06 L Navy T Clemson\UNC

    1901 Ind 6-1 W W&L\Georgetown\Clemson\MD\VMI L UVA – Morrison
    1903 Ind 5-1 W NC ST\UNC\Navy L UVA – Lueder => WVA
    1905 Ind 9-1 W Army\UNC\UVA\W&L\USC\VMI L Navy – Clarence Miles
    C P “sally” Miles – beat UVA refused to play till 1923 – founded SoCon

    1907 SAIAA 7-2 (1-0) Wc UNC Wn W&L\Georgetown\VMI : L Navy

    Branch Bocock VT’s first professional coach, and first coach paid a full-time salary. Coached for the following teams during the following years UGA 08, VT 09-10, UNC 11, VT 12-15, LSU 20-21, USC 25-26

    1909 SAIAA 6-1 (2-0) Wc UNC\NC ST : Wn Clemson\W&L : L Princeton
    1910 SAIAA 6-2 (1-1) Wc UNC : Lc NC ST : Wn W&L : L Navy
    1911 SAIAA 6-1-2 (1-0-1) Wc NC ST : Tc UNC : Wn MD\UT : Ln Yale
    1913 SAIAA 7-1-1 (1-0) Wc UNC : Wn Mississippi : L W&L : T VMI
    1914 SAIAA 6-2-1 (1-0) Wc NC ST : Wn VMI : L W&L
    1916 SAIAA 7-2 (2-0) Wc UNC\NC ST : W WF\VMI : L WVA\Yale
    1917 SAIAA 6-2-1 (0-0-1) T NC ST : W WF\VMI : L Georgetown\WVA
    1918 SAIAA 7-0 (2-0) Wc UNC\NC ST : W W&L\WF\VMI
    1921 SAIAA 7-3 (1-1) Wc NC ST : Lc MD : W W&L : L Centre\W&L

    1922 SoCon 8-1-1 (2-0) Wc MD\NC ST : W W&L\VMI : L Centre
    1928 SoCon 7-2 (3-0) Wc UNC\MD\UVA : W W&L : L Colgate\VMI
    1932 SoCon 8-1 (4-1) Wc UGA\MD\UK\UVA : W W&L\VMI : L Alabama
    1942 SoCon 7-2-1 (0-0) W W&L\UVA\VMI : T UK : L Furman\Army
    1954 SoCon 8-0-1 (0-0) W NC ST\WF\Clemson\UVA\VMI : T W & M
    1956 SoCon 7-2-1 (0-0) W NC ST\FSU\UVA\VMI : L Tulane\Clemson

    Jerry Clairborne – Played for Bear Bryant at UK, then went to A&M as his assistant coach. He coached VT from 61-70, MD 72- 81 (see post in Maryland section, and finished at UK. He won a SoCon championship before VT went Independent, and was the last successful coach at VT until Frank Beamer (who played for Claiborne when he coached at VT).
    1963 SoCon 8-2 (1-0) Wc WVA : W WF\UVA\FSU\VMI : L UK\NC ST
    1965 Ind 7-3 W WF\UVA\Villanova : L VU\FSU\WVA
    1966 Ind 8-2-1 W UK\UVA : L Tulane : T WVA : L Miami (FL)=>Liberty
    1967 Ind 7-3 W KSU\Villanova\UK\WVA : L Miami (FL)\FSU\VMI
    1968 Ind 7-4 L Alabama\KSU\Miami (FL) : L Mississippi => Liberty

    1975 Ind 8-3 W Auburn\FSU\UVA\Houston\VMI\WF :L UK\KentSt\WVA

    Bill Dooley came from UNC where he won 3 ACC championships
    1980 Ind 8-4 W UVA\WVA\VMI L Clemson\FSU L Miami (FL) => Peach
    1983 Ind 9-2 W Memphis\VMI\UL\Duke\Tulane\VU\UVA : L WF\WVA
    1984 Ind 8-4 L WVA\UVA\Clemson : L Air Force => Independence
    1986 Ind 10-1-1 W SU\WVA\UVA\VU :L UC T USC W NC ST => Peach

    Frank Beamer 1987-??
    93 BE 9-3 (4-3) Lc MiamiFL\WVA\BC W : Indiana => Independence
    94 BE 8-4 (5-2) Lc Syracuse\MiamiFL : L UVA : L Tennessee +> Gator
    95 BE 10-2 (6-1) Lc BC : L UC : W Texas => Sugar : BE Champion
    96 BE 10-2 (6-1) Lc Syracuse : L Nebraska => Orange : BE Champion
    98 BE 9-3 (5-2) Lc Temple\Syracuse : L UVA : W Bama => Music City
    99 BE 11-1 (7-0) W UVA\Clemson : L FSU => Sugar : BE Champion
    00 BE 11-1 (6-1) Lc MiamiFL : W WVA\UCF\UVA :W Clemson => Gator
    01 BE 8-4 (4-3) Lc Syracuse\Pitt\MiamiFL : L FSU => Gator
    02 BE 10-4 (3-4) Lc Pitt\Syracuse\WVA\MiamiFL :L AirForce=>SF Bowl
    03 BE 8-5 (4-3) Lc WVA\Pitt\BC\ : L UVA : L Cal => Insight

    04 ACC 10-3 (7-1) Lc NC ST :L U$C :L Auburn => Sugar :ACC Champ
    05 ACC 11-2 (7-1) Lc Miami :L FSU ACC CG :W Louisville => Gator
    06 ACC 10-3 (6-2) Lc GT\BC : L Georgia => Peach
    07 ACC 11-3 (7-3) Lc BC : L LSU : L Kansas => Orange :ACC Champ
    08 ACC 10-4 (5-3) Lc BC\FSU\MiamiFL :W UC=> Orange :ACC Champ
    09 ACC 10-3 (6-2) Lc GT\UNC : L Alabama : W Tennessee => Peach

    UVA coach/program analysis

    conclusions – No, Va Tech should not be on the top 5 list. I put them in for a few reasons:

    a) contrast for UVA, and other ACC teams
    b) a team that had nothing, and did it right. They got Jerry Clairborne who put them on the map. Then followed up with Bill Dooley who kept them from falling back to obscurity (and hired him away from UNC, where he had proven success). Then they up upgraded to Frank Beamer the same year Dooley went 9-2-1 and won the Peach Bowl (Dooley then went to Wake Forest).
    c) I wanted to show some of the relationships they had from the very beginning in terms of who they played and how they scheduled.
    d) While they may be the lesser academic to UVA, they passed them up when it came to using what they had to build a football program



    a) state size – #19, 5.7 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Redskins, Ravens, Eagles – D 1, Navy
    c) school data – public, state, .5 B endowment, AAU, 27K U, 11K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 1 NC, 2 FF, 5 EE, 13 SS
    WCBB – 1 NC, 4 FF, ?? EE, ?? SS
    baseball –
    softball –
    hockey –
    other – 21 lacrosse titles, 3 soccer titles, 4 competitive cheer
    e) football

    loki helmet = Huge, Large, [Average], Small, Tiny
    conference rank – (ACC) #5 = avg 51,249
    stadium – 54K, 09 average = 44,452 (82% of capacity) expansion 60K
    history –

    Note: Wc=conference win,Lc=conference loss,Wn=OoCWin,Ln=OoCLoss

    1893 Ind 6-0 State & DC Champions : M A C = perfect season
    1903 Ind 7-4 L Georgetown\St. Johns\St. Mary’s\Delaware

    Harry Clifton “curley” Byrd 1911-1934, 119-82-15 – He was the the force behind Maryland. He was a student at Maryland Agricultural College (Maryland was originally an A&M school). He played multiple sports there, then coached there. He became AD as well as coach, and raised the funds for the first football stadium at Maryland. He also worked on the administrative side and worked his way up, and assumed the presidency of Maryland in 1935.

    1912 Ind 6-1-1 : L St John’s : T Widener
    1913 Ind 6-3 : L Navy\Gallaudet\Widener : Maryland state Champions
    1915 Ind 6-3 : L Haverford\Catholic\Johns Hopkins
    1916 Ind 6-2 : L Navy\Haverford
    1920 SAIAA 7-2 (2-0) : Wc VT\UNC : Ln Rutgers\Princeton
    1923 SoCon 7-2-1 (2-1) : Wc UNC\NC ST : Lc VT : L Yale T Johns Hop
    1930 SoCon 7-5 (2-2) Wc UVA\VT : Lc UNC\VU : W VMI : L Yale\Navy
    1931 SoCon 8-1-1 (2-1-1) Wc UVA\VT : Lc VU : Tc : UK
    1934 SoCon 7-3 (2-0) Wc VT\UVA L : W UF\VMI : L W&L\Navy\IU 😉

    1935 SoCon 7-2-2 (2-1) Wc VT\UVA : Lc UNC : L SU : T W&L\IU 😉
    1937 SoCon CC 8-2 (1-0) Wc UVA : W SU\UF\VMI\W&L : L Penn\PSU
    1942 SoCon 7-2 (0-1) Lc Duke : W Uconn\RU\UF\UVA\W&L : L VMI

    Byrd hired Bear Bryant in 1945 but they clashed ending with Bryant resigning after Byrd reinstated a player Bryant had suspended for violating team rules (see notes in comments – The “Sinful Seven”).
    1945 SoCon 6-2-1 (1-1) Lc VT : Wc USC : T WVU : L W & M

    Jim Tatum, 47-55, 73-15-4, 1 SoCon Title, 2 ACC Titles, 1 MNC – 53. UNC player/grad, coached the Tar Heels before the war. In 1946 he coached Oklahoma for 1 year, winning a Big 6 conference title, and a Gator Bowl. Went to Maryland in 1947 to coach the Terps through the “sinful seven” period and ACC jump before returning to coach UNC.
    1947 SoCon 7-2-2 (2-2-1) Lc Duke\UNC T NC ST : T UGA => Gator
    1948 SoCon 6-4 (2-2) Lc Duke\UNC : L VU\WVU
    1949 SoCon 9-1 (3-0) L Michigan State : W Missouri => Gator
    1950 SoCon 7-2-1 (3-1-1) Lc NC ST : Tc UNC : W MSU\Navy : L UGA
    1951 SoCon 10-0 (3-0) W UGA\LSU : W UT => Sugar : MNC #1 ?
    1952 Ind 7-2 W Missouri\Auburn\UGA\LSU : L Mississippi\Alabama
    1953 ACC CC 10-1 (3-0) : L Oklahoma => Orange : MNC #2 #1 rank
    1954 ACC 7-2-1 (4-0-1) Wc UNC\USC\NC ST Tc WF : L UCLA\MiamiF
    1955 ACC CC 10-1 (4-0) L Oklahoma => Orange : #3 rank

    Tommy Mont 56-58, 11-18-1, => DePauw, 59-76, 67-94-4
    Tom Nugent 59-65, 36-34, player from Tatum era, later in canada
    Roy Lester, 69-71, 7-25, came from HS ranks, and returned after MD

    Jerry Clairborne, 72-81, 77-33-3 Peach
    1974 CC 8-4 (6-0) Ln Alabama\Florida\PSU : L Tennessee => Liberty
    1975 CC 9-2-1 (5-0) L Tennessee\PSU T UK : W Florida => Gator
    1976 CC 11-1 (5-0) W WVU\SU\Vnova\UK\UC : L Houston => Cotton
    1977 8-4 (4-2) Lc NC ST\UNC : L WVU\PSU : W Minnesota => HoF
    1978 9-3 (5-1) Lc Clemson : W Tulane\UK\SU : L PSU : L UTx => Sun
    1979 7-4 (4-2) Lc NC ST\WF : W Villanova\MichSt\UL : L UK\PSU
    1980 8-4 (5-1) Lc UNC : W VU\WVU : L Pitt\PSU: L UF => Tangerine

    Bobby Ross, 1=82′-86′, 39-19-1, 3 ACC Crowns & 4 bowls in 5 years
    Ross was a VMI grad that coached the Citadel for five seasons before coaching at Maryland. After Maryland he went to GT where he took them to a MNC in 1990, and then took the Chargers to a Super Bowl.

    1982 8-4 (5-1) Lc Clemson : L PSU\WVU : L Washington => Aloha
    1983 CC 8-4 (5-1) Lc Clemson : L WVU\Auburn : L UTenn => Citrus
    1984 CC 9-3 (6-0) L SU\VU\PSU : W WVU\MiamiF : W UTenn => Sun
    1985 CC 9-3 (6-0) L PSU\Michigan\MiamiF : W Syracuse => Cherry

    Joe Krivak, 87-91, 20-34-2, Ross assistant without Ross success
    Mark Duffner, 92-96, 20-35, PSU linebacker coach

    Ralph Friedgen, 01-??, ACC Crown year 1, downhill since
    2001 CC 10-2 (7-1) Lc FSU : Wn WVU: L Florida => Orange #10
    2002 11-3 (6-2) Lc FSU\UVA : L ND : W Tennessee => Peach #13
    2003 10-3 (6-2) Lc FSU\GT : Ln N Illinois : W WVU => Gator #17
    2006 9-4 (5-3) Lc GT\BC\WF : Ln WVU : W Purdue => Champs NR
    2008 8-5 (4-4) Lc UVA\VT\FSU\BC :L MTSU :W Nevada=>Humanitarian

    Maryland coach/program analysis

    Frank Nielsen went 11-7 at Maryland before moving to the SAIAA where he would win 3 conference championships (1908 9-1-1, 1910 7-1-1, 1911 7-1-1). He served in WW I and attained the rank of major. After the war he became a lawyer and diplomatic official.

    Clark Shaughnessy started out at Tulane where he went 59-28-1 and 2 conference championships from 1915-1926. Next he landed at the University of Chicago as the replacement for the legendary Amos Alonzo Stagg where he went a dismal 17-34-4 between 1933 – 1939 (the power years for the golden gophers). In 1940 he went west to stanford and led them to a perfect 7-0 conference championship. The season was capped off with a win against Nebraska in the Rose Bowl (21-13), a perfect 10-0 season, and a #2 AP rank. In 1942 he would coach the terrapins to a 7-2 season and went down hill from there.

    The “Sinful Seven”

    The NCAA passed a set of regulations called the Purity Code in 1948, (renamed Sanity Code) which permitted student-athletes free tuition and meals, but required legitimate part-time jobs, and pay commensurate with the work. Schools found in violation could be expelled from the NCAA. In 1950 the “Sinful Seven” [Virginia, Maryland, VMI, Virginia Tech, The Citadel, Boston College, and Villanova] admitted they were in violation of the code. Maryland was the only Sinful Seven school that was also a major football power with 80 scholarship players, and Byrd led their stand against the Sanity Code. UVA president Colgate Darden called the code hypocritical. The Citadel’s leadership refused to “lie to stay in the association” and requested termination of its NCAA membership. At the convention to decide UVA’s fate, Byrd said, “Does Ohio State want to vote for expulsion of UVA, when Ohio State has facilities to take care of four or five as many athletes as UVA?” The ensuing vote fell 25 short of the needed 2/3 majority to expel the Sinful Seven.

    In 1951, the football team’s 10–0 season culminated in a 28–13 victory over first-ranked Tennessee in the 1952 Sugar Bowl. Maryland’s participation, however, was in violation of a Southern Conference resolution passed mid-season that banned participation in postseason bowl games. Byrd had Maryland accept the bowl invitation, despite Tatum’s objections. The coach thought the threatened sanctions, which prevented Maryland from playing any Southern Conference games the following season, would severely disadvantage his team. In 1952, Maryland and Clemson, which had also violated the bowl game ban, were sanctioned, and the incident hastened the break-up of the Southern Conference and formation of the Atlantic Coast Conference, of which both schools were founding members.

    “Dictator, president, athletic director, football coach, comptroller, chief lobbyist and glamour boy supreme … Curley is the most-hated and most-beloved man in Maryland.”

    — Bob Considine, Curley Byrd Catches the Worm, 1941
    Opponents in The Baltimore Sun alleged that Byrd emphasized athletics over academics and belittled him as the only college football coach to rise to the position of university president. Among the campus expansions, Byrd was responsible for the construction of Byrd Stadium in 1950 and Cole Field House in 1955, which at the time was the largest basketball arena in the Southern Conference. Critics alleged that both facilities were constructed at the expense of campus libraries. Byrd also built the University of Maryland Golf Course in 1959.

    conclusions – No, Maryland should not be on the top 5 list. They have been the historical backbone of ACC football. In looking over their history I noticed numerous games with PSU, Pitt, and SEC schools and east coast catholic schools. Sure they have had periods of poor football decisions but overall have a solid second tier status, with the ability to move up. I will do Pitt and a few SEC schools in the next post to follow up how a PSU/Pitt/Rutgers/Maryland fit might look. As vincent and I have discussed numerous times the Terps have a good men’s and women’s basketball ability. I note that former Terp coach Bobby Ross last coached Army, and the new Terp guy is an Army guy.


    Georgia Tech

    a) state size – #9, 9.8 million
    b) in state competition – Pro, Falcons – D 1, Georgia (UGA)
    c) school data – public, state, 1.2 B endowment, AAU, 13K U, 7K G
    d) other sports
    MCBB – 1 RU, 2 FF, 4 EE, 7 SS
    WCBB –
    baseball – 3 CWS appearances
    softball –
    hockey –
    other – golf, volleyball, tennis 1 NC ?
    e) football

    loki helmet = Huge, Large, Average, [Small], Tiny
    conference rank – (ACC) #5 = avg 51,249
    stadium – 55K, 09 average = 51,584 (94% of capacity) max 57 2006
    history –

    Note: Wc=conference win,Lc=conference loss,Wn=OoCWin,Ln=OoCLoss

    1892 Independent 0-3, L Mercer, Vanderbilt(VU), Auburn
    1893 Independent 2-1-1, L St Albans, T Auburn, W Mercer\Georgia
    The first two years were included to show how far back GT goes with some current SEC teams. The 1893 Georgia (UGA) win (28-6) was the game that gave birth to “Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate” (see notes below)

    1894 GT becomes a charter member of the SIAA and gets pounded early on 96 1-1-1, 97 0-1, 98 0-3, 99 0-5, 00 0-4, 02 0-6-2, 03 3-5

    1901 SIAA 4-0-1 (0-0), the year they play no SIAA members 😉

    Being the smart guys, they figured if they could not win the simple solution was to buy the coach of the team that was beating you. Enter John Heisman who had coached the Oberlin Yoemen to a perfect 8-0, followed by Buchtel and a 6-2 record. He then entered the SIAA by first coaching Auburn 95-99, 12-4-2, and then Clemson 00-03, 19-3-2, and 2 SIAA Titles. In 1903 Clemson beat GT 73-0, so GT offered Heisman a coaching position for $2,250 a year and 30% of the home ticket sales. GT would go 102-29-6 from 1904 to 1919 while picking up 3 SIAA titles in 16′,17′,18′ and a MNC in 1917. The stunning thing is how badly teams were beaten (1916 PF 421 PA 20, 1917 PF 491 PA 17, 1918 PF 466 PA 32). It would take a divorce to get him to leave GT.
    04 SIAA 8-1-1 (2-1-1) W UT\UGA : L Aub : T Clemson PF 287!! PA 34
    05 SIAA 7-0-1 (4-0) W Bama\UT\UGA\Clemson : PF 233!! PA 33
    06 SIAA 6-3-1 (2-2) Wc Aub\UGA : Lc VU\Clemson : L Sewanee
    08 SIAA 6-3 (3-2) Wc MSU\Bama\Clemson : Lc UT\Aub : L Sewanee
    09 SIAA 7-2 (3-1) Wc UT\UGA\Clemson : Lc Aub : L Sewanee
    11 SIAA 6-2-1 (2-2-1) Wc UT\Clemson : Lc Aub\UGA : Tc Bama
    13 SIAA 7-2 (2-2) Wc UF\Clemson : Lc Aub\UGA : PF 250 PA 43
    14 SIAA 6-2 (2-2) Wc UGA\Clemson : Lc Bama\Aub : PF 206 PA 40
    15 SIAA 7-0-1 (3-0-1) Wc LSU\Bama\Aub : Tc UGA : PF 233 PA 24
    16 SIAA 8-0-1 (4-0) Wc Tulane\Bama\UGA\Aub : Tn W&L
    17 SIAA 9-0 (3-0) Wc VU 83-0\Tulane 48-0\Aub 68-7 : MNC #1
    18 SIAA 6-1 (2-0) Wc Clemsn 28-0\Aub 41-0 :W NC ST 128-0 :L Pitt
    19 SIAA 7-3 (2-1) Wc Clem\VU : Lc Aub 7-14 : Ln Pitt 6-16\W&L 0-3

    So what does GT do? They hire his assistant coach! Mud River Kentucky native William Alexander would pick up where his boss left off and from 1920 to 1944 he would win 8 conference championships as GT would pass from the SIAA to the SoCon and on to the SEC. His last 3 teams would play in the Cotton, Sugar, and Orange (his 1928 team won the Rose Bowl). He retired in 1944, and passed away in 1950.
    1920 SIAA 8-1 (3-0) Wc VU 44-0\Clem 7-0\Aub 34-0 : L Pitt 3-10
    1921 SIAA 8-1 (2-0) Wc Clm48-7\Aub14-0 :W RU 48-14 :L PSU 7-28
    1922 SoCon 7-2 (4-0) Wc Bama\Clem\NC ST\Aub : L Navy\ND
    1925 SoCon 6-2-1 (3-1-1) Wc UF\VU\UGA : Lc Bama : Tc Aub : L ND
    1927 SoCon 8-1-1 (6-0-1) Wc Tul\Bama\UNC\LSU\Aub\UGA : T VU
    1928 SoCon 10-0 (6-0) Nc VMI\ND : W Cal => Rose : MNC #2 perfect
    1939 SEC 8-2 (6-0) L ND3pt+Duke1pt:6pts=10-0!: W Mizz =>Orange
    1942 SEC 9-2 (4-1) Lc UGA : W ND\Navy\Duke : L Texas => Cotton
    1943 SEC 8-3 (3-0) W UNC\Clm :L ND\Navy\Duke :W Tulsa => Sugar
    1944 SEC 8-3 (4-0) W Clm\UNC\Navy :L Duke\ND :L Tulsa => Orange

    GT went to the well once again and hired the assistant coach! Bobby Dodd compiled a 165–64–8 record at GT while leading them to two SEC championships (51 & 52) and a MNC in 1952. Under Dodd’s leadership, Tech played in 13 major bowls, winning 9, including six in a row from 1952 to 1956, and had a 31-game winning streak from 1951 to 1953.
    1946 SEC 9-2 (4-2) Lc UT\UGA :Wn VMI\Duke\Navy :W St Mary =>Oil
    1947 SEC 10-1 (4-1) Lc Bama :Wn VMI\Duke\Navy :W KU => Orange
    1951 SEC 11-0-1 (7-0) Wn SMU\VMI : T Duke : W Baylor => Orange
    1952 SEC 12-0 (6-0) W SMU\Army : W Mississippi => Sugar : MNC #3
    1953 SEC 9-2-1 (4-1-1) Lc Bama : Tc UF : L ND : W WVU => Sugar
    1954 SEC 8-3 (6-2) Lc UF\UK :W SMU :Ln Duke :W Arkansas=>Cotton
    1955 SEC 9-1-1 (4-1-1) Lc Aub : Tc UT : W SMU : W Pitt => Sugar
    1956 SEC 10-1 (7-1) Lc UT 0-6 : W SMU\Duke W Pitt => Gator
    1966 Ind 9-2 W TAMU\Clem\UT\Aub\UVA\PSU :L UGA :L UF => Orange

    GT goes to Dodds assistant Bud Carson, but his success is limited and he will go to the NFL as defensive coordinator for the “Steel Curtain” 😉
    1970 Ind 9-3 W USC\FSU\MiamiF : L UT\Aub\ND : W TxTech => Sun

    GT goes to Bill Curry (former player and assistant coach) and he has one good season before jumping to Tide and making the Sugar in 3 years. Unable to beat Auburn, he jumps to UK and mediocrity.
    1985 ACC 9-2-1 (5-1) Lc UVA : Ln Aub : T UT : W MichSt => HoF

    GT raid ACC foe Maryland for Bobby Ross who will go 2-9 his first season before leading GT to the promised land in 1990 and MNC #4
    1990 ACC 11-0-1 (6-0-1) Tc UNC : W Nebraska => Citrus MNC #4
    1991 ACC 8-5(5-2)Lc Clem\NC ST :L PSU\USC\UGA :W Stnfd=> Aloha

    George O’Leary – defensive coordinator during Bobby Ross tenure at GT. Builds back program but has issues, jumps to ND with fake resume.
    1998 10-2 (7-1) Lc FSU :Ln BC : W NewMex ST\UGA : W ND => Gator
    1999 8-4 (5-3) Lc FSU\UVA\WF :W Navy\UCF\UGA :L MiamiF => Gator
    2000 9-3 (6-2) Lc FSU\NC ST : W UCF\Navy\UGA : L LSU => Peach
    2001 8-5 (4-4) Lc Clm\MD\UVA\FSU : L UGA : W Stanford => Seattle

    Chan Gailey compiled 6 winning seasons in 6 years as coach but never; defeated Tech’s top rival (UGA), never won the ACC, never went to a BCS bowl, never won more than 9 games, and never had a Top 25 finish.
    2006 9-5 (7-1) Lc Clemson : L ND\UGA : L WF CG : L WVU => Gator

    Paul Johnson has jumped out of the gate in his first 2 years
    2008 9-4 (5-3) Lc VT\UVA\UNC : W UGA : L LSU => Peach
    2009 11-3 (7-1) Lc MiamiF : L UGA : W Clem CG : L Iowa => Orange

    Georgia Tech coach/program analysis

    “Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate”
    The nickname given to the college rivalry between the Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets and the Georgia Bulldogs. Heated rivals since 1893, the two schools are separated by just 70 miles . The schools, in essence, are not only competing in athletics but are also competing for government and private funding, potential students, and amongst other things academic recognition in the State of Georgia and the United States.

    Georgia Institute of Technology (commonly referred to as Georgia Tech, Tech, The Institute or GT), is an engineering research university located in the state’s capital and largest city, Atlanta. The University of Georgia (commonly referred to as Georgia or UGA) is located in Athens, Georgia and is a liberal arts research university. The academic and geographic divergence of the two institutions polarizes the state of Georgia into two fairly large fan bases.

    John Heisman 1904 – 1919, 102-29-6, 3 CC 1 MNC
    William Alexander 1920 – 1944, 134-95-15, 8 CC, 1 MNC
    Bobby Dodd 1945 – 1966, 165-64-8, 2 CC, 1 MNC
    Bud Carson 1967 – 1971, 27- 27, (1) 9 win season, 2 bowl games
    Bill Fulcher 1972 – 1973, 12-10-1, (1) 7 win season, 1 bowl game
    Pepper Rodgers 1974 – 1979, 34-31-2, (2) 7 win season, 1 bowl (ACC)
    Bill Curry 1980-1986, 31-43-4, (1) 9 win season, 1 bowl
    Bobby Ross 1987 – 1991, 31-26-1, 1 CC – ACC, 1 MNC
    Bill Lewis 1992 – 1994, 11-19 UCF, 34-41, CC, 3 bowls
    Chan Gailey 2002 – 2007, 44-32, 1 decent bowl, 5 “meh” bowls
    Paul Johnson 2008 – ????, 20-7, (2) 9+ wins, ACC CC & DC, 2 bowls

    conclusions – No, GT should not be on the top 5 list. They have historic football traditions and have shown sustained periods across multiple coaches. Sure they have a dud or to in their history, but have shown the ability to bounce back. Sure they have a small student base compared to other state schools and are dominated in their home market by rival Georgia, but have stayed the course as a top second tier school.


    1. Fascinating work. Well done.

      Just to note: N.C. State and Virginia Tech had somewhat poorer football reputations than North Carolina or Virginia up to about the mid- to late sixties and really weren’t considered on the same level as UNC or UVa. State played in an on-campus stadium that seated about 20,000 or so until Carter-Finley opened in 1966, so for many years most of its games against UNC and Duke were played on the road. For Tech, it wasn’t so much stadium size (as recently as the mid-seventies, UVa’s Scott Stadium barely seated 30,000) as competition; Tech’s longtime rival, for years its Thanksgiving Day opponent, was Virginia Military.

      Had Tech and West Virginia not supported the Southern Conference’s no-bowl policy in 1951 — something Clemson and Maryland remembered — there’s a good chance both Tech and WVU would have been ACC members from the outset when that conference was formed in April 1953.


      1. Vincent

        Also, I have to question ranking UVa as an underperforming football school, insomuch as it sort of regarded itself as an ersatz Ivy for decades (remember, it had no women undergraduates until 1970!), sort of a southern Rutgers in keeping with its genteel Jeffersonian academic tradition. It had some regional success in football before the ACC era, but never really tried for much more than that; keep in mind it never appeared in a bowl game until 1984. Many of its alums liked it this way, too, fearing the onset of “state-Uism” (thus explaining the Rice/Stanford type of pep band in Charlottesville until it was disbanded some years back). It’s not as if UVa tried to be big-time from the outset and failed.


      2. duffman


        VT was better early on, but there was friction with UVA because UVA got their nose out of joint after an early beatdown VT gave them. When VT beat them around 1905, they refused to play them again until both were SoCon members about 20 years later. I agree with your Ivy sentiment on UVA (especially knowing many old UVA alum) as I think they viewed VT and NC ST as beneath them. They probably had a better team than NC ST, but holding a grudge for 20 years because somebody beat you is a little much. Even folks that are much older than me viewed UVA like Cincinnati used to be when it was a private school. Cincinnati changed greatly when it went to state status in the 70’s, but UVA still retains the “private” mentality even tho it is a state school. Not saying UC = UVA, just saying I agree with your statement asserting that UVA views themselves differently than most state schools.


      1. duffman

        doing pitt right now, might do Uconn and Syracuse with them. I may end with Vandy and UK. From some of the early days it looks like VU was beating SEC, ACC, and Texas among others. If I do any other SEC schools it would be georgia or auburn, but my gut says UGA would not make the list. Aurbun probably would be a wash as they share the state with Alabama. The oddball is Tulane which seems to have fallen the most from the early days [it is where the Sugar Bowl started, should have been an ACC member after it left the SEC, and has the dubious distinction of being the only Division I-A football team ever to move from a larger, on-campus stadium to a smaller, off-campus stadium.

        so far TAMU is the winner, and UVA probably makes the list somewhere. I would not put MSU on there and I am still mulling Minnesota, Illinois, Northwestern because of the U of Chicago thing early on. The thing I find fascinating is that most of what goes on today was forged between WW I and WW II, and remains somewhat unchanged even now.


        1. The oddball is Tulane which seems to have fallen the most from the early days — it is where the Sugar Bowl started, should have been an ACC member after it left the SEC, and has the dubious distinction of being the only Division I-A football team ever to move from a larger, on-campus stadium to a smaller, off-campus stadium.

          Tulane in the ACC after it left the SEC? I could have seen it as an academic fit to the likes of Wake and Duke, but it would be a geographic outlier even now and, in the days when the ACC had no presence south of the Carolinas, would really have been isolated. It might have been better off in the old Southwest Conference, where its peers would have included several it now has in Conference USA.


        2. Alan from Baton Rouge

          Duff – Regarding Tulane and their “dubious distinction”, you have to keep in mind that old Tulane Stadium was built out to such capacity to hold the Sugar Bowl, not because of demand for Tulane tickets. Tulane’s only capacity games were against LSU.

          Before the Superdome was built, the Saints used Tulane Stadium as their home field. Tulane Stadium also hosted 3 Superbowls.

          Remember that in the mid-70s, the Superdome was by far the greatest, most luxurious stadium in the world. The Astrodome could fit inside the Superdome. The Superdome was the Jerry World of its day. Back then ans well as today, I think Tulane gets use of the Superdome for close to free.

          Also, Tulane Stadium was not in good shape. Sections of it were condemned shortly after the Superdome opened. Tulane has a small campus surrounded by neighborhoods and nowhere to expand. Tearing down Tulane Stadium made sense on several levels.

          Why would a school with limited football success, a small campus footprint with no room to expand keep a decrepit on-campus stadium when the greatest stadium in the world could be used?

          Duff, moving Tulane’s home games to the Superdome made sense at the time, and still does today. Unfortunately, 15-25k fans looks like crap on TV and feels empty in person.

          How ’bout my Greenies putting the beat down last weekend on future Big Ten member Rutgers?


          1. Vincent

            I should also note the greatest game in University of Maryland football history was played at Tulane Stadium on Jan. 1, 1952 when the unbeaten Terrapins defeated national champion Tennessee 28-13 in the Sugar Bowl. (Since the ’51 Terps finished unbeaten, I consider them Maryland’s best team, because even though the ’53 team won the mythical national title, it lost the Orange Bowl to Oklahoma.)


  18. bullet

    Impressive work.

    One further note about GT. Even though they have 20k students now, they have grown a lot in recent years. They were 16k in 2003 and 10-12k in the 80s. They have historically been very much an engineering school, while UGA was agriculture and liberal arts. UGA grads refer to GT as “that trade school on North Avenue.”


  19. Bamatab

    I was reading an article about the upcoming Pac 12 AD & Presidents meetings this month and ran across this proposal for dividing up their teams for divisions. Some of you have probably already seen it, but I thought it was interesting. They call it the Pac 12 Cooler proposal. Here is a link to a site that explains it:

    Basically it is a zipper type of split in which the rivals are split and they still can play their regional games (for instance the California teams can still play each other) every year. I thought it was a pretty neat idea. Although like the ACC, I’d never be able keep track of who all is in each division.


      1. @Hopkins Horn – Basically, it means lining up all of the rivals (or natural geographic pairs) and splitting them into separate divisions. So, a Pac-10 zipper would mean that each division has 1 school each from SoCal, NorCal, Arizona, Oregon, Washington and the Rockies.


          1. ccrider55

            Yes. You always play everyone in your half and the two, in the other half, in the row that you are in. Preserves regional rivalries as well as N/S access. Basically a zipper/pod hybred. What to call them? S and U divisions? wSu, aSu, oSu, uSc, Stan., uuSl(Salt lake?) in the S. Uore, Ucal, Ucolo, Uwash, Ucla, Uaz in the U. Too much wory about this as I’d bet the under on circumstances requiring an overhaul being necessary in five or less years.


          2. Richard

            How about Red and Blu(ish). All the “S” school (oSu, wSu, aSu, Stanford, uSc) & Utah have some shade of red in their school colors (if you squint, orange is kind of reddish). The other schools all have some sort of bluish color in their school color (purple and green have blue in them) except for Colorado, which doesn’t fit in anywhere.


      2. bullet

        The zipper is dead! That seems to be the consensus. It appears the Pac 12 will be North/South. The only question is whether Colorado and Utah are north or the Bay Area is north.

        Ironically, since the key is Los Angeles, the NW schools are fighting keeping the 4 CA schools together. If they get the Bay Area, they get LESS access to LA than almost any other alignment. The CA schools will have to play each other, meaning a 5-2-2. So 5 division, 2 other division every year and rotating the other 4 teams every other year. With CU and UT north, you either do a full rotating schedule of the other division (everyone 4 of 6 years) or a 5-2-2 where the NW schools might each get an LA school every year.

        So # of games vs. LA schools for OR & WA schools:
        N/S Bay Area North 6 in 6 years
        N/S CU/UT North rotate 8 in 6 years
        N/S CU/UT North 5-2-2 9 in 6 years

        In a zipper format you still probably have a 5-2-2 with the 4 CA schools playing each other every year. That only gives the WA/OR schools 9 games in 6 years vs. LA schools (6 vs. 1 in division, every other year vs. LA school in other division).


        1. Richard

          The key question is, do the NW schools see playing the SoCal schools as often as possible to most important (in which case they’ve push for a 5-2-2 with the dividing line at the California/Oregon border) or do they see having a foothold in California (for recruiting purposes) as being more important (in which case they’d want the dividing line to separate NoCal and SoCal in a 5-2-2). Remember that NoCal (while not as fertile as SoCal) is still a good recruiting area for the Pac10, especially for the Oregon schools. Also, what the San Jose writer said makes sense; a lot of Americans are ignorant about geography, and even most recruits probably don’t spend as much time on scheduling as we do; they’ll just look at how the divisions are split. The NW schools definitely don’t want the perception to develop that they are locked out of Cali (which could happen if all 4 California schools are in the south).


        1. ccrider55

          My prediction, N/S in the format of the pac12cooler with 2 protected cross division (for the cali schools):

          UW WSU UA Utah
          UO OSU ASU Colo
          Cal Stan USC UCLA

          I’d prefer the true cooler but the simplicity of N/S will probably win the day, and besides this may not be in effect for more than a few years…


  20. ccrider55

    That would work but it would require knowing the colors of the teams. Not a problem for locals but as a westerner I would have a hard time with the colors of all the Big east, or even the ACC. Probably more of a problem for easterners who are asleep during many of the west coast games.


  21. Playoffs Now

    Our favorite doofus provides another gem:

    Donovan McNabb, the Nelson Mandela of the NFL while imprisoned in Philly, left no doubt today. Great, great stuff from my man D-McNabb.

    It is like Chip is a character in one of those really, really bad Miller commercials.


    1. StvInIL

      Philly fans are nuts. If these people only knew how many QBs us Chicago Bears fans have gone through just to get to a guy the quality of DM.


  22. jj

    Anyone have any thoughts on the B10’s new logo / branding? I think the PAC-10 hit it out the park with theirs. It looked sweet at Oregon the other night. I hope the B10 puts something cool together. I’m not holdign out much hope – the one we have is crap.


      1. Richard

        Well, that’s just 1 guy’s design.

        Can’t say I like it. Hard lines and curves just don’t mix. The old one looked clean because it consisted solely of straight lines.

        Also, there’s no need to introduce serifs.

        I trust that the official new BigTen logo will look better.


      2. jj

        That is an epic, epic fail. It is almost as ugly as UM’s helmets.

        PAC-10’s is great for three reasons: (1) it showcases the league’s geography in a subtle way; (2) it can be easily updated to 12, 14, 16, 120, whatever; and (3) the schools can make it their own by using their own color schemes.

        B10 needs to look hard at this one I think. Just popping a 2 in place of a 1 isn’t very interesting.


      3. 84Lion

        I don’t like it either. With the old logo the “11” jumped out at you. With this logo it seems you have to hunt for the 12 (“Why does the ‘E’ look funny? Oh, yeah, now I see it.”). Mixing the typestyles between the letters and numbers is a huge fail for me.


    1. loki_the_bubba

      I really don’t like the new PAC logo. That meaningless squiggle in the middle just looks silly to me. And the font for the ’10’ look like a line and a capital O.


        1. loki_the_bubba

          No one has ever mentioned the wave to me before. They described a tree. I can’t believe anyone could see anything if it was not described to them.


  23. Michael in Indy

    I have a question: Will the Big 12 change its name? If so, to what, and if not, why?

    Supposedly some presidents are reluctant to change the name because they think the Big 12 has a good “brand name,” but who are they kidding. The Big Ten has a good brand name: it has 100+ years of history with no school having ever left the conference, other than a school that decided to downgrade athletics entirely. Besides, the Big Ten’s misnomer is due to its success, but the Big 12’s minsomer is due to its internal problems.

    As for a name, seriously: what would be a good name, realistically. I’m not talking about “The Big Texas” or whatever. What should the league REALLY be called to rebrand itself?

    I’d say the “Big Central” or just the “Central Conference.” Other ideas?


    1. bullet

      High Plains has kind of a nice ring, but only fits Lubbock. Great Plains doesn’t really fit Austin or College Station. Southwest doesn’t really fit Ames or Columbia. Chisolm Trail doesn’t really fit them either. B12 is a good brand. Its been around long enough and 10/12 of the schools are still around. I don’t think they have good alternatives. I suspect we are left with 3 numerically challenged conferences (A10 and the mistmatched Bigs).


    2. duffman

      TAC – Tornado Alley Conference

      BBQC – Kansas City & Texas BBQ are in the conference footprint, if they added Memphis, it still fits.

      CCC – Comedy Central Conference

      NEC – No Earthquake Conference

      I-35 Conference – You get all the states!

      Big West – yes I know this is taken, but they could buy the rights as all the current Big West teams are in California, so they could get a new name that reflected the california membership. The bonus, is they can claim an older heritage than the Big 12. The Big West goes back to the 60’s and the name goes back to the 80’s! Companies have bought and older company to buy “history” why not a conference?


      1. StvInIL

        I like Big West. its not like you can go any further west in this country than the coast. You probably can not go any bigger in terms of Universities either.


        1. bullet

          Actually, I think the conference lasts as long as both Texas and OU want it to. Nobody wants the 5 other guys and only Texas and OU want Tech and Okie St. The conference can live if the Aggies go to the SEC who is the only one really interested in them (and I think their interest is lukewarm).


    3. My vote: The Big Country.

      Imagine the instant synergies for the halftime public service announcements with the band and theme song. Plus, Oklahoma State alum Bryant Reeves can be used as the official conference mascot. I don’t think he’s busy these days.


    1. m (Ag)

      The images of the ‘Hoddy Toddy’ mascot remind of the ‘Greendale Human Being’ mascot from the “Community” TV show.

      Of course, on the show it’s supposed to be funny.


  24. Alan from Baton Rouge

    Richard – Admiral Ackbar would have been way too cool for Ole Miss. Besides, according to LucasFilms, he’s too busy fighting evil forces in another galaxy.

    Hotty Toddy is a silly cheer that the Ole Miss fans loves to say incessantly. They also use it as a greeting amongst themselves.

    “Are you ready?
    Hell yes! Damn Right!
    Hotty Toddy, Gosh almighty
    Who the hell are we, Hey!
    Flim Flam, Bim Bam


  25. Pingback: Through the Wire with TCU and N to the Izz-O, V to the Izz-A « FRANK THE TANK’S SLANT

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