I deal with Domers, Wolverines and Buckeyes on a daily basis, but I will say that there is no fan base that I have ever encountered that is as rabid and devoted as Nebraska fans. The discussions on this blog have only reinforced that – we’re getting fan base like no other. All of the Big Ten schools are going to be invaded by a sea of red sooner rather than later, as the Huskers are starting conference play in 2011. This is something that I noted was on the table a couple of weeks ago, where the Big Ten would provide financial concessions (such as a faster vesting of NU’s share of the Big Ten Network) in order to compensate for the higher 1-year notice exit fee from the Big 12.
So, is this the end of expansion for the Big Ten or are we going to get the equivalent of the “Her Majesty” track on the Abbey Road album… or maybe an entirely new album added on? The Board of Regents of the University of Texas is discussing conference realignment on Tuesday. Despite what many of you may think, I’m a realist – if Texas A&M refuses the overtures of the SEC, then the heavy odds are on the creation of the Pac-16 with UT and friends. The situation, though, continues to be extremely fluid. There are enough dominoes in this game to keep this discussion going for awhile.
In the meantime, congratulations to the University of Nebraska! It’s about time that the Big Ten had a Memorial Stadium that could sell out.
(Follow Frank the Tank’s Slant on Twitter @frankthetank111)
FRANK THE TANK'S SLANT 
NU, welcome to the family. I look forward to the Iowa-NU rivalry starting/heating up very quickly!!
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Adding.
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Again.
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adding again(damn you guys!)
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This time I really mean it!
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Welcome Nebraska!!!!
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Please… more e-mail!
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just caught up on the e-mails from the last post.
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Looking forward to the Huskers coming to the Bank and the Barn. Welcome, Big Red!
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Especially the Barn.
🙂
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Welcome to the Big1T2en, huskers.
Note that this is the conference that Penn State won in 1994, and McCloskey was in bounds in 1982, when we won another National Championship.
WE ARE!
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PENN STATE! (just so you’re not left hanging)… (so if I do an O H … you should complete me… lol)
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You should probably check with McCloskey on that.
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Now that’s good stuff, lol
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PSU – Nebraska traveling trophy
The 1982 National Championship Trophy
Michigan – Nebraska Trophy
The 1997 National Championship Trophy
Wisconsin – Nebraska Trophy
A Bronze Bust of Barry Alvarez – The Bronze Barry!
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Exactly, PSU – Nebraska traveling trophy.
A giant, gold 1994 sitting on a base that spells “Champions”
Much better than that monstrosity land grant trophy.
No offense to MSU; love the game, but hate the trophy and artificial “rivalry”
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Congratulations to Nebraska and the Big 10. I lived in Minnesota for a very brief part of my life and while I don’t recall who they played, I do recall seeing Big Red flood an otherwise empty interstate heading east to flood someones stadium.
Also, congratulations to Colorado on joining the Pac 10 which I think is a great move for them.
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Agreed. CU to the Pac-1# is a natural move. And, it trumped the BU vs. CU debate. Now, BU has a pot to piss in, but no window to throw it out.
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Congrats to Nebraska and all their fans on here. I think you can count on all of us cheering for you during your last season in the Big 12.
Don´t get to comfortable though – a year from now and it´s all business.
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From Tom at MGoBlog, ND is cancelling its game with Army in 2013.
http://www.collegefantasyfootballinsider.com/news/16751/2013-ArmyNotre-Dame-no-longer-planned
Most teams take 2 years to join a conference (NU being an exception). I think this does mean something is happening. That goes double since there’s been a lot of smoke around the idea of the BE giving ND an ultimatum about getting in or getting out.
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Yeah, and I should definitely also say welcome to Nebraska. I’m very glad that you’re joining us. As a Michigan fan and alum I respect you greatly… although I can think of one thing we might argue over.
Regardless, I think you’ve got a great football tradition and I’m glad to now have a great excuse to see a football game at Nebraska. You guys are crazy, I saw when you played ND at South Bend, I thought the pictures were from a home game for you. Nice.
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Welcome Nebraska to the Big Ten!! First order of business for every Nebraska fan: Explain to that school up north who really won the NC in 97.
At least i can say THE BIG won the NC in 97!
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We got the pretty trophy with the crystal football; they got the one that’s a vo-tech reject.
We beat #3 Tennessee. Soundly.
They squeaked past Wazzu (!) with the aid of a motivated timekeeper.
We know what’s what.
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And still it took Phil Fulmer voting Michigan 4th!?!? (hate the SEC) for Nebraska to claim its half.
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I seem to remember OSU’s previous coach ruining our outright national championship that year. Had he just decided to keep running it when he got inside the 20, OSU beat Michigan that year.
And Michigan thinks it could have stopped Nebraska’s running attack that year. Come on!!
I still debate that every poker night with a MI alum and we are both here in Austin, TX.
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So when Delaney said “we’re not interested in any more Big 12 teams” he was lying then? Or maybe misquoted? I guess I don’t get why you think Texas is seriously still on the table.
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Maybe he’s interested in Missouri- after the Big XII is dissolved 😀
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I think Missouri knows they have been played in a gambit for Nebraska, if they get in now it is the last team to get the Big 10 to 16. There are plenty of schools with a better place in line for slots 13 – 16. Missouri is the kid watching the bus pull away without them. i really feel for them and the situation they are in. Like Kansas, they are knowing what it feels like to have AAU status, and no new home.
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He’s not interested in them at this time. ‘This time’ could have been yesterday, this month, or this Summer.
It could also be given this environment. Texas A&M going to the SEC could ‘force his hand’ again.
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Welcome Huskers!
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Welcome Huskers….and another thousand replies to my inbox…
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WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
WELCOME BIG RED!
we are 12, welcome to the family!!!!!!!!!!!
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Welcome aboard Nebraska!! Can’t wait for the PSU-Neb rivalry to start up again. Good games and good fans.
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duffman says:
June 11, 2010 at 5:03 pm
Right now we are a chess game and the Big 10 and the SEC are equal.
Both have 4 slots open in the race to 16
Who wins and who loses depends on how wisely each use those 4 slots
just my observation.. but I am going to keep this in my mind as I watch the expansion talk going forward (yeah the Pac 16 and ACC 16 may happen but from a football expansion they are the several levels down in the competition and it is still about delany and slive.
sorry just tagging this to the new thread….
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To which I say Abbey Road (Nebraska) is far superior to the overrated Sg. Pepper (Texas).
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Nebraska superior to Texas? You’re joking, right?
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Nebraska not superior to Texas, but Nebraska is superior to Texas with baggage that brings down the integrity of the conference.
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I agree that UT brings a lot of baggage, but the poster I was responded to clearly stated that Nebraska was “far superior” to Texas. Laughable.
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Pardon the typo…
was responding to*
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Add
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OK who is next? Sure seems the P10 is going to 16 in a week.
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Here’s a thought from the previous blog… it is rumored that OU is going with UT. That is not good news for the “UT to the BT” sect. OU is obviously a non-starter for the BT. I’d much rather UT & TAMU be linked w/o OU/oSu, TTU, BU, etc…
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Adding
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add
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adding
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I could not be happier about this. Nebraska is a great addition to the Big Ten. Like Delany said, they’re just a perfect fit. Even if the state isn’t big, every single person in the state is crazy about Cornhusker sports.
I value money, but more important than that is the stability that Nebraska brings to the conference. With other, perhaps sexier, schools, you’d always be worried that they wouldn’t be looking out for the good of the conference as a whole. I don’t get the sense that’s going to be a problem with UNL.
I can’t wait for the first Hawkeye/Huskers game.
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Agreed. If presented with a choice of Nebraska alone versus UT plus 4 as a bloc, I’d take the former ten out of ten times. TT, OU, and OSU are just too dilutive of the academic brand and TAMU would be just tagging alone because mom and dad told them to stay close to their big brother. UT would be great on their own, but I have this notion that they would always feel like an outlier, never fully integrating into the conference. Five to ten years out, I could see them getting restive and this whole process playing out again with Big Ten on the bad end of it.
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Frank,
BTW, I am guessing 1,000,000 comes this weekend!
congrats for showing that a blog with good content can draw!
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FtT,
You should be very proud of yourself. You’re responsible for the premier Conference Realignment site. From your initial BTEI and continuing throughout all 27 follow-ups, you’ve been a knowledgeable & courteous host. Because of this, you’ve attracted scores of likewise posters. This site is a one-stop shop w/ many links and insights into universities that I may have never learned much about otherwise. I want to thank you for this forum. I’ll be a little disappointed when the realignment carousel stops, as this is very entertaining.
Thank you Frank. And thanks to all the posters here.
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@Sportsman24 – Thank you so much for the kind words. Honestly, reading all of the comments is way more fun than actually writing the posts. We have lots to talk about for awhile, though.
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I agree about the reading vs.writing. I’ve been reading your blog since the original BTEI, but I didn’t start posting until F/U #18. : )
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Here, here Frank. Its been awesome to read your posts and read everyone’s responses. You should be extremely proud.
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Agreed dude, in particular the courteous part. I have no doubt you are a gentleman lawyer. Go get the next scoop!
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Frank the Tank,
First: WELCOME NEBRASKA!!!
I agree with the above posts. You have been AWESOME with your analysis of conference expansion. I have been reading your posts for the last 4 months (incidently I love the super death star conference). Thank you for all the hard work and I will continue reading your blog.
By the way who do you think the match-up for the Big Ten conference championship game in 2011 will be?
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The Huskers take the 2011 Big Ten Championship!!! GO BIG RED!!!
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# Jim Delany: “We’re back to the ‘slow tempo’ game” half a minute ago via txt
# Jim Delany just said he expects a Big Ten championship game 13 minutes ago via txt
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Seems like a simple east-west division at the IL-IN state line would make the most sense at 12.
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Ugh. If B10 is going to do a CCG, don’t do divisions. Take the top 2 teams. Get creative.
But if they do CCG, do they bid it to the networks or show it on BTN? Obvious answer seems to be bid it out (ABC would likely pay quite a bit for it), but I don’t know enough about it. Patrick may know, would it make sense to keep it on BTN?
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NCAA requires divisions for a CCG. However I have yet to see anything that says you can’t simply change division alignments every year. Not necessary with 12, but for 14 you could do 3 protected annual games and then play the 5 of the other 10 per year. For 16 do 3 protect and 6 of 12 per year. Everyone plays everyone at least twice per 4 years.
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Just b/c that is the NCAA rule now is no reason why it can’t be changed. It’s a rule that has no real point? Why is it necessary to have divisions? It’s not a like a rule saying that you cannot have any contact with an alumni booster – that at least has a point. The only reason the NCAA wouldn’t change it is simply because it wants to exert control over the B10. Not a good battle for either to get into. So I think they would change it quickly.
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That rule blows and is part of why the B12 blew up and no gives a crap about ACC. Change It! Ask USC, rules were meant to be broken!
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And I thought that the Big Ten was against having a Conference Championship Game. I thought that the focus would be to move the traditional rivalry games to first weekend of December to go against the other conferences championship games. I know that Osborne is also not a fan of a CCG.
In other news…
The only times Notre Dame has a real chance to beat USC is when USC is on probation. Better make the most of it. Whose your coach this year?
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Lame Kitten, lol!
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Adding
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One thing about Nebraska does bother me. You can’t be called NU anymore. First of all, that’s Northwestern. Second, if you’re the University of Nebraska, you can’t be NU. That’s backwards and reminds me of the old joke that the N on your helmet stood for “Nowledge.” You’re smarter than that.
I know, we can’t count past ten. But neither can the Cornhuskers anymore since it doesn’t sound like the name is changing.
Since Nebraska seems to dislike being called UN but seems OK with UNL, I’m fine with calling them UNL from now on.
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Josh,
UNL is perfectly acceptable in Nebraska and in deference to our senior BT Northwestern colleagues seems only proper.
Besides we kicked their ass last time we played them in a bowl 🙂
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I believe that is the current record (66-17, 49 points) margin of victory in a bowl game.
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Seems like a good idea for the traveling trophy. Who gets to use NU?
Seriously, though it goes back to the fight song, “there is no place like Nebraska, dear old Nebraska U.” You’ve been calling an academic conference with 11 members the Big Ten for quite a while without hurting your heads. You’ll get used to two NUs.
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Hey there! Watch your mouth; we just voted for you! LOL. And I was at that asswhoopin’, I mean game. I think we were still in the new to this, happy to be there stage. But we’re much better now 😉
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It hasn’t gone unnoticed in our part of the world that Northwestern is moving on up also. Wouldn’t want to make any enemies, we might need you to pick off somebody ahead of us in the standings.
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BIG RED THRASHING MACHINE:
welcome to a battle between tOSU and NUl
in women’s basketball, bring it on!
😉
ps.. for those that do not follow it, both are good!
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You’ll like the Devaney Center for as long as it’s still around. Nice place to watch basketball.
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anybody have a link for a replay of the Nebraska news?
I was watching BTN, but I got on late and missed Jim and Tom speak dagnabit!!!!
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http://www.1011now.com/home/headlines/95994629.html
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Can we please get a Nebraska vs PSU annual end of season rivalry game to replace the land grant trophy?
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Sorry, but Iowa has dibs on UNL as our new season-ender. If we continue to expand, I hope we get an eastern rival for PSU. Would you prefer Pitt, MD, RU, SU, etc…?
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Agreed. NB/IA is better.
Leave the PSU/MSU alone. It’s fine. They played for the championship like 2 years ago. It beats the crap out of PSU Rutgers or PSU Syracuse.
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I would prefer to spread out the Big Games during the season.
Michigan-Ohio State the final weekend is big enough. Any other game is generally overshadowed – even if UM or tOSU is down. Let Penn State-Nebraska be the marquee game on a different weekend. Same thing for Iowa-Nebraska , Ohio State-Penn State, Michigan-Michigan State, Ohio State-Wisconsin, and lately Iowa-Penn State. Each of these rivalry games deserves their own weekend to shine.
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None of the above. I want a game that elicits emotion, and Nebraska is our first opportunity to have that.
Come on Iowa, you took away our most recent shot at a title, can’t you give us this one?
Every other team in the BigTen that PSU fans have an emotional rivalry with….has a longer, more established rivalry with another school.
I won’t be bitter if it doesn’t happen, but as the two newest members it would be nice, and we both have national appeal.
Nothing against Mich St., I like and respect them, and I hope that we continue to play every year; it is usually an entertaining and sometimes unpredictable game….but, the emotion just isn’t there.
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well it didn’t help that state blew the big one after saban left for about 10 years.
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I’d love an end of season game with Penn State.
If Iowa is in our division/pod it will still be a meaningful rivalry. But older Husker fans remember the tremendous games from 1979-1983. We’ve been keeping an eye on PSU for 40 years.
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I’m a Husker in Iowa, so believe, me, I can’t wait to start playing the Hawkeyes, and I think it will be a great rivalry.
That said, Penn St-Nebraska is my vote for the season ender. There is some serious history with 1982 and 1994, and the angle of being the two newest members (for now, anyway) is an angle I hadn’t thought of before.
Mostly, there are now four traditional football powers in the Big Ten, and I’m told the other two already have a rivalry. 😉
I think Nebraska’s first Big Ten game should be in October 2011, in Iowa City.
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HZ,
agree PSU vs NUL as they are the “new” but also they are now the “arms” or “wings” of the Big 10.
(it helps to see the Big10 states in black, and the rest of the USA in white when looking at a map)
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Absolutely. The 1994 National Champion Trophy could be played for every year.
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It’s amusing how many Penn State alumni are ready to end the final game rivalry with Michigan State and start one up with Nebraska. The Land Grant Trophy wins the National Championship for ugliness and needs to be retired now. Maybe we should start a Facebook page and ask Betty White to do the inaugural coin toss!
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It wont be so amusing when MSU sends joepa into retirement with a loss and takes that ugly-ass trophy back to EL! LOL!
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Just do something to piss dantonio off and watch him get all crazy about it. He’s a grudge-holder. THe UM/MSU rivalry went nuclear when he showed up. If PSU wants some excitement, just piss the man off and watch him go nuts.
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He already pissed us off with all of his last second antics and timeouts in 7 degree weather after we crushed MSU in ’08.
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Was it really Dantonio that made the UofM-MSU rivalry “go nuclear”, or was it RichRod coming along that made it more of a rivalry?
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Dantonio is an old MSU guy. When he first came, he made UM the priority game. Others had been playing the old “its not a big deal, we focus on each game” routine.
MD went back to “we will destroy UM come hell or highwater”. he was very public about it and stared it when carr was still around.
i suspect UM hates losing to MSU more than anything b/c they really think of MSU as inferior fools. i work with a mass of UM law grads. they hate MD. Bobby W and John L were viewed, rightly, as fools.
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you cannot underestimate just how much they schools hate each other on some level. UM / OSU gets the headlines, but UM /MSU is where the blood boils really. the UMers don’t like admit it either, it is really funny in a way to watch their heads pop and then be all like, “oh, no big deal”.
i’ve lived in EL, AA and Detroit. I’ve been to basically every combination of UM/MSU/OSU/ND in every stadium (BB and FB). MSU/UM is the big money pissed off time.
You have to bear in mind that these people compete for literally everything – every sport, recruiting, local men/women, jobs, the biggest piece of chicken in the bucket. you name it – they fight overt it.
they can draw 100,000 for a hockey game. I’m going!
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@jj
I don’t disagree with you at all about the hatred aspect between UofM and MSU. I’ve been a big Michigan fan my entire life, and it gets bad. I feel somewhat badly for MSU (I’m not a hater), because Michigan fans are so arrogant about it. Sometimes I think they treat the rivalry with MSU like it’s second tier to the rivalry to OSU because UofM fans try to act and feel superior to MSU in every respect. You’ll constantly find UofM fans talking about how it’s “so much better of a school than MSU”, acting like MSU is a school for rejects. They’ll talk about how all that matters is the rivalry with OSU, and do things like call and treat MSU like “the little brother”.
It’s both unfair and foolish. MSU has great fans (generally speaking, much better than Michigan’s), is an excellent school, and has a solid tradition in both basketball and football. The only thing I would say is that MSU always played UofM tough, even before Dantonio got there. It wasn’t until RichRod came along that they really started winning, though.
I would even go to say that I think MSU made the right choice in hiring Dantonio over Brian Kelly (and I’ve been a fan of his since GVSU). Dantonio brings more stability to a place like MSU than Kelly. There’s no saying that Kelly wouldn’t have left MSU to go to Notre Dame if State started winning more. Dantonio probably isn’t ever going to leave, and he’s brought a tough attitude and better in-state recruiting to the Spartans. He probably isn’t going to win any national championships at State, but he could produce a Rose Bowl team or two over the next ten or 15 years, which is what MSU needs. Good, talented teams and good consistency.
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Kirk Herbstreit (the guy who cost Michigan Les Miles) says that Notre Dame needs to be next.
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/06/herbstreit-on-big-ten-nebraska-a-huge-coup-notre-dame-should-join-too.html
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After winning everything in sight on his way to the top, only to get passed over by Michigan State and not even receive the courtesy of an interview with Michigan, I have to wonder if Brian Kelly doesn’t hold a grudge against the Big Ten. Not that he will decide anything.
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I also agree with Herbstreit that Georgia Tech should be one of the four.
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Oh, he’s pissed allright. I like Mark D, but can’t help think what could have been. Kelly’s a friggin’ beast and this should be an interesting year. If ND were to join the B10, the ND/UM/MSU trifecta of hate would explode into previously unseen depths on this Earth. The thing about these guys that creates animosity unlike UM / OSU is that the former have to live and work with each other all year round whereas the Columbus crowd only pops by once a year to pants UM on national tv and then heads home.
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The “ND/UM/MSU trifecta of hate” is a great description. As a UM or MSU fan, it’s so confusing who to root for when the other is playing ND. You want both to lose.
(Maybe if ND joins the Big Ten its fans will actually care about who wins UM vs MSU. Nah–probably not.)
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I’d choose Miami (which is more of a “Northern” school) over GTech.
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NE-ND-GT-VA-MD would be a home run from every angle.
NE-ND-GT-Vandy-Rut would be awesome.
NE-Vandy-GT-VA-MD would be a great all around success.
NE-GT-VA-MD-Rut nearly as good.
NE-GT-Rut-Syr-Pitt or NE-GT-Vandy-Syr-Rut would be a solid expansion.
Right now it is still hard to go wrong, even without ND. Plenty of good choices left.
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I think your top list is a distinct possibility
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I agree w/ the top list, but swap out GT for Pitt. It would be; NU, ND, Pitt, MD & UVA. I like GT and it’s an excellent university, but it would be quite the geographic outlier (even w/ MD & UVA).
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And Georgia Tech already has a Rose Bowl win…
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Right now ND, MD. and VA aren’t choices, and GT leaves a lot to be desired. Vandy?? Are you joking?
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Why so negative all the time?
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So would Syracuse then be getting the Mushroomgod vote?
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I would definitely agree that Virginia would be an extremely good fit in the Big Ten. Virginia is not only an academic peer, but would rank in the top 3 in many academic categories in the Big Ten. Great location too! I would LOVE to see it happen. It would definitely put more credibility into the “academic peer” angle. Just about every sports story ends with the “this is all about dollars” sentiment.
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Hawks top 30!!!!!
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attempt II. welcome huskers!!!
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With ND and TX apparently out of play, I believe SEC prospects in going to 16 are somewhat brighter than those of the BT.
I do see 13 and 14 for the BT being Missouri and RU. Amoung other reasons, the Neb addition sets up a very nice East/West division. The East is somewhay stronger (OSU; UM; PSU v. Neb.; Wis; Iowa), but otherwise it sets up nicely:
East:OSU, UM, PSU, MSU, IU, Pur
West, Ill, NW, Iowa, Neb, Minn., Wis
Adding one eastern team and one western team seems most logical.
So who are the prospects?
RU, Pitt, Sya, U Conn, MD, VA, GT in the East. I would agree with some of you that MD is the strongest school here; however, I see MD and VA as being very unlikely to bolt to the BT.
In the West, MO., KU are basically it.
Hard to see a strong 4 team expansion here.
On the other hand, SEC has 3 strong prospects in FSU, Clemson, WV. WV is a great candidate, imo, if you ignore academics, which SEC seems able to do. OK and A&M seemingly being off the table for the SEC is huge, if true….but I think I like Clemson, FSU, and WV are better than any 3 presently available to the BT….
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I suppose it is perspective… you are obviously talking strictly from a football standpoint?
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shroom.. from the last blog..
this is where it may go now, as i think FSU / Clemson / WVU / GT
is less likely than A&M / UNC / UVA / MD
duffman says:
June 11, 2010 at 3:58 pm
sorry to do this.. but my follow up did not attach correctly so I am running omnicarrier first and my followup attached..
omnicarrier says:
June 11, 2010 at 8:47 am
“Of course Texas wants A&M to follow it. If the two schools moved together to the Pac-10, Texas could maintain the status quo. With nothing still to differentiate the two schools, the Longhorns could continue their recruiting momentum.
But Texas A&M can change that dramatically by joining the Southeastern Conference.
It could offer recruits a choice, a chance to play in the best football conference in the nation, in front of rabid fans and in sold-out stadiums, in cities and college towns that their families can drive to.”
Read more: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/06/11/1492807/draw-swords-texas-am-and-carve.html#ixzz0qYU7yig3
Someone who gets it. The worse thing that could happen to UT is for A&M to go to the SEC while they go to either the Pac-10 or the Big 10. They must go together or UT to the Big 10 and A&M to the Pac-10.
Since the latter scenario definitely isn’t happening, UT will USE Texas politics to tie them together and once Texas politicians do that, in return they will want to save TTU as well. Which is why the only realistic possibilities are the Pac-16 or making the Big 12 work with the two defections of Nebraska and Colorado.
duffman says:
June 11, 2010 at 3:45 pm
omni,
some points I noticed….
A) this is a charlotte NC paper saying A&M should go to the SEC
B) it goes on to say what I have voiced grave concern here before
“Through this whole conference upheaval saga, the loudest sound in the room has been the silence coming from the SEC. Anybody else find that odd?
SEC commissioner Mike Slive, however, has been anything but a disinterested bystander.”
C) then my jaw drops
“My educated hunch is that the other SEC targets would be Oklahoma, Virginia Tech and North Carolina. If Oklahoma wants to tag along with the Longhorns, the SEC will look at Maryland and the Washington, D.C., market.”
This was what I have feared all along IN PRINT in a NORTH CAROLINA newspaper. We keep saying UNC to the SEC is a no go, but here it is in a NORTH CAROLINA newspaper. Folks, a 16 team SEC with A&M, UNC, Maryland, and UVA or Va Tech is not only possible, but a very REAL threat to Big 10 expansion plans!
Reply
zeek says:
June 11, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Never going to happen.
It just won’t. Maryland/VA/UNC. None of those schools will go anywhere near the SEC.
Reply
duffman says:
June 11, 2010 at 4:28 pm
zeek,
I hear you, but as things are moving on NEVER seems to be an almost quaint word now….
some points to consider….
a) slive (ESPN) and delany (FOX) are THE players….
b) my early theory that the BIG 3 would survive, and the little 3 would not (at least with less power, not more)
c) tv (via football) is driving this bus
What combination could the ACC make that could rival a Big 16, Pac 16, or SEC 16 from a football/TV revenue standpoint?
The power of ACC football is in schools ALREADY in dominant SEC football territory, and the SEC has end of season rival games already (Ga Tech/UGA, USC/Clemson, UF/FSU/Miami) so they [the SEC] has already picked the low hanging fruit from the ACC tree….
If Nebraska can leave Oklahoma behind, and A&M can leave Texas behind, can it be so hard for UNC to leave Duke behind [UNC – state school with abilty to sustain a BIG football stadium vs Duke – private school with 30,000 seats they can not fill now]?
Money matters, and those that can grow (UNC & Maryland) will see that Duke and Wake can not….
We keep saying academics matter so if Slive wants to really fire the shot heard round the world, what better way to do it than with an end run NOBODY thinks can happen.
Add A&M + UNC + UVA + Maryland to UF + Vandy + UGA and a few more and you have created a NEW conference of academics & sports (I agree the Mississippi schools are the academic “dead weight” of the SEC, but if you read mrsec, the other schools are not that bad as a whole..
We keep focusing on ND, but what if the SEC pulls Maryland in the meantime?
The SEC just added another single state flagship school to the fold along with new markets and senators / congressmen….
I am not saying anything WILL happen, what I am saying is it is pollyanna thinking to think the Big 10 will sweep everybody else, and they will just sit there and watch it happen. In chess you are plotting moves that are still to be made are we not thinking Slive is a worthy opponent?
pride goes before a fall….
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Maryland won’t even let me type……………………………………….
…SEC on the same sentence.
How about Yale?
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If the SEC could get UNC, UVa and Maryland, they could get Texas.
If the SEC could get Texas do you think there is any chance in for aggy to get picked?
The SEC can’t get any of those schools (currently) so they can settle for aggy and ou – good fits for the SEC.
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texas is a predator, the ACC is prey
big difference!
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The problem I have with the UNC, Maryland, and UVA to the SEC is that all three would be accepted in the Big Ten, which can offer them all more money – both academic and TV, and is a MUCH better academic fit. If the Big Ten could get those three schools, all three would get invites. If the Big Ten can’t get them, neither can the SEC.
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Neither Clemson or West Virginia are as strong as any of the ‘weak’ BT possibilities you mentioned. Oh, except (to me) Syracuse.
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Clemson has a NC in fball, a huge fan base, and is a top 60 type school academically.
WV has strong fball and bball programs, and one of the most loyal and enthusiatic fan bases around.
One odd thing if WV were to gt to the SEC…VW was craeted by the Civil War…seperated from the rich plantation boys along the coast. If WV went to the SEC it would be taking the Union into the Confederacy….
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Hatfields and the McCoys
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Nowadays WV might as well be the south.
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WVU was in the Southern Conference for several decades, and wanted to join the ACC at its outset but was blocked (as was Virginia Tech) because it voted in 1951 to punish Clemson and Maryland for violating the conference’s no-bowl policy. When the ACC was formed in the spring of 1953, I believe Maryland was neutral on WVU and VPI, but Clemson was adamantly opposed to both.
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You should be disqualified from describing Clemson as a “top 60 school” when it was a whistleblower from that university that gave the biggest hit to the credibility of the USNWR ratings by leaking how Clemson was fudging their numbers.
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Well, I didn’t say they weren’t cheters…they wouldn’t fit in the SEC otherwise….but as to academics, Clemson’s Princton Review academic rating is 92 (Pitt’s is 90 for comparison), and Clemson is more selective in admissions than Pitt. And Pitt is the #1 academic institution being considered by the BT, other than ND>
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And how good has Clemson been since they stopped paying players?
Clemson hasn’t been back to a BCS level bowl since that Orange Bowl. They were lucky to avoid the death penalty in the 1980s.
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If the SEC were to grab a few schools from the ACC first, I can see Virginia being persuaded to leave to go to the Big Ten and eventually being a member of the CIC. Remember…. think like a University President, like Frank always says!
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No matter how things turn out, I think college football is going to be a lot more interesting in the next few years. A good shakeup is always interesting. That first Neb – PSU game will be pretty exciting. Same with the first UT – UCLA game in the Rose Bowl. I do hope this somehow leads to the Cotton Bowl returning to its rightful place in bowl hierarchy. Though I’m afraid the Fiesta Bowl will remain there. Either way, despite what the pundits at ESPN and SI think, I think college football may be getting better.
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UT at UCLA in RB next year or non conference – they signed a home and home years ago.
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Yep, we’re scheduled to play at UCLA next year. We have a home-and-home with Cal 2015-16.
It will be interesting to see if they get incorporated into the conference schedules or, as I suspect, canceled.
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Also – I think that the Cotton will be elevated to a BCS. I think eventually – 16 team conferences will get 2 autos w/ limit moving up to 3.
Thinking about math out loud 4 megas w/ 2 autos each. One auto from MWC/B12 hybrid and 3 other at larges to get the 12 BCS spots (10 coming from Rose, Orange, Sugar, Fiesta, and Cotton + 2 in rotating NC)
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Would Texas really go to the Pac Ten when the Big Ten is still a real possibility? In the Pac Ten, some of their games may not start until 10 pm on the east coast. The travel times really are not that different when comparing the two conferences. They get so much more in prestige, academics, and, like Nebraska stated, more stability and security from the Big Ten.
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If the Pac 10 gets Texas and OU, along with A&M, Colorado, Ok State and Texas Tech…the Big Ten might win the short term game, but not the long haul. The money will come to that enlarged Pac 10 eventually.
If the Big Ten doesn’t come away with Texas, ND or even Virginia Tech, Delany is going to lose his mystique as a power-broker and is going to look like a boob who tipped his hand too soon and got his bluff called in a big way.
I’m all for bringing in the Huskers…but it is not enough to counter what the Pac 10 and SEC can do if they make their rumored additions.
The Big Ten could be headed to third banana status real quick…or even fourth, if ND joins some sort of Big East/ACC mega-conference down the road.
The next few days are huge for the Big Ten’s future.
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Damn…pretty defeatest there…..BT now has 4 of the 7 all-time winningest fball programs of all time. Hardly 3rd banana status.
Also, Pac 10 might be the long-term loser in all this; they have essentially set up two leagues, with two entirely different cultures. No matter what the Big 10 does 13-16, I think it will be a good fit……
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To expound on that===
PAC 10, with 16 teams, now has 3 of the top 10 football programs–Tx, USC, OK. And USC is out of action for 5 years effectively…
BT, with 12 teams, has 4 of the top 10 fball programs ever–Neb., UM, OSU, PSU.
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History is great and all, but what does that do for the Big 10 right now?
OU, UT, and USC are all top 10 type programs right now (not counting off OU year due to Bradford’s injury), while UM and NU have been completely mediocre the last couple of years.
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USC’s time for mediocrity is about to begin.
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That’s fine. I’m all for Nebraska in the Big Ten. It’s a great football program with a fantastic following and stellar tradition.
The winningest programs of all-time thing is nice, but they combine for as many national championships in the last 30 years as the SEC has in the past 10.
If Texas goes to the Pac 10, what big fish does the Big Ten land in a future expansion if ND isn’t a candidate?
Now for the immediate plusses for football…
Nebraska makes the Big Ten bowl pool much deeper, leading to more favorable bowl match ups all the way down the line. I love that aspect. When we send two to the BCS, it usually means Big Ten teams have to “play up” in all the other bowl match ups. Nebraska helps alleviate that issue. That can help with the conference strength perception, as the Big Ten wins more bowl games (hopefully).
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I 100% disagree; TX to the P16 is perfectly good for the B10; B10 and P10 are coordinating; the B10 is not slipping to “third banana” anytime soon with the B10 Network ensuring that.
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I doubt they are coordinating, but as long as TX ends up outside the SEC the B10+2 comes out ahead.
TX to the P16 provides balance for college football. TX to the B10+2 or SEC would have created permanent lopsidedness that probably would have been bad for college sports.
Though until the official announcements are made, I won’t completely rule out anything.
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@cjb5,
I disagree with everything you said, except for the last paragraph. I agree that the BT has been “playing up” to the competition in Bowl Games due to the second BCS Bid. This fact is oft ignored by media pundits.
@BuckeyeBeau,
I agree that a healthy Pac-1# is good for the BT, and about the only way the P1# can expand is with UT.
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I would agree with that, especially since if the Pac Ten does expand to 16, they are taking some mediocre teams just to get Texas and Oklahoma. They may be damaging their strength of schedule in the process.
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Mediocre academically, but the Big XII South has been FANTASTIC (sans Baylor) for the last decade athletically.
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TTech had one really good season and a handful of solid seasons. OSU has had like two solid seasons. I’d hardly call UT and OU being great cause for labeling the B12 south as FANTASTIC for a decade. In fact, I’d say your description of the B12 south over the last decade is ridiculous.
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The Big 12 is burning, what if the ACC is next?
we are playing what if here on this blog, so here goes….
In my old theory I argued for the Big 3 and the scraps….
In my theory the Big 12, ACC, and BE were the prey….
My theory has been correct so far about the Big 12, so….
what if the ACC is next and NOT the BE (vis a vi ND to the Big 10)?
now some things on my mind
a) the Big 12 was surrounded by the BIG 3 (B 16, P16, and SEC 16) and were most at risk.
b) the BE has no appeal to the P 16, and little or no appeal to the SEC 16. this means the only threat to the BE is the B 16
c) the ACC has no appeal to the P 16, but is a tasty place to feed for both the B 16 & SEC 16.
now add it football and TV..
Big 16 (FOX) and SEC 16 (ESPN) want to add strength….
d) the ACC is ESPN territory not FOX territory
If I was ESPN, I want my ACC teams not already tied to SEC teams (Clemson, Miami, G Tech, and FSU) to find a home with the SEC over the Big 10, as every ACC team to the Big 10 means FOX wins and I lose.
comments????
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Intriguing theory, but at this point, I still don’t understand why B10 or SEC wants/needs to expand. Simple answer is more money – but isn’t this what the NHL was thinking when it expanded in the 90’s? I don’t think it has worked out as well for them. Of course, it has worked for the NHL. If you get a home run, you probably do it. ND for B10. OU or A&M (again UT/A&M are different animals b/c of size of Texas) for SEC.
But if you are going to raid the ACC, I want brand names. And UNC is at the top of that list – IMO.
Anyway, I’ve been thinking about this, and Nebraska is to college like GB is to NFL. Small market, but with the most passionate fan base. And not simply johnny come lately fans – fans who will root for them always. In sports, that is an extremely valuable asset. That is why Neb is a home run.
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Good analogy with GB—I’ll give it a triple, but Neb.’s no PSU overall……
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SH, I think you have referenced the NHL thing before. It’s not a good analogy. The NHL moved into new (and in my opinion bad) markets. Here, college football markets are already established, they are just moving the conference pieces around. It would be like moving the blackhawks from the west to the east; had that happened, fans wouldn’t have suddenly stopped following them. Bad analogy in my opinion.
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First, you are assuming that SEC can think it through. They are first and last FOOTBALL. That is all they care about. College is not for academics but to play football. Conferences are for playing sports, not academics.
The problem with UNC is Duke, Wake Forest & NC State. Those 4 carolina schools are linked at the hip, more so than Texas & Texas A&M. Plus they only care about basketball.
The SEC will go after the football schools. FSU, Miami, Clemson and Virginia Tech. Georgia Tech is not likely. GT left the SEC in the 1960’s due to academics. At the same time, Tulane left for the same reason. Having read the GT forums, they would prefer the Big Ten, just they don’t believe it is possible.
The ACC would have the better schools and better demographics. Lots of people from the north have retired to the carolinas and georgia.
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apps,
I study history, 20 years ago the big 10 won the battle with PSU, but lost the war to the SEC. Before everybody goes nuts, keep in mind that I view things through 2 lenses (one being small long term thinking and the other being the “masses” which see things short term and sorta like ADD kids). While we here see that the Big 10 has good schools and good football, the “average” person just sees the end result. We may know what happened in the tOSU vs Michigan game in 1972, but the average person does not (and probably does not care).
The “masses” can probably tell you who won the BCS NC game the last decade, the NCAA BB NC, The Super Bowl, The NBA, or the KY Derby. These folks remember the winners, but not who finished second. At the time PSU won, but history has been kind to the SEC in recent years. I do not want to argue merits, just methods. The SEC took Arkansas and USC (not a Nebraska or PSU) yet they were the ones who made the most with them. They did not go to current markets (Clemson, FSU, Miami, or GT) but went to NEW markets. They made lemonade from their lemons, and sold it well to the “masses”. To not see this is foolish, and to run them down for their academics just makes us look “snooty” to the masses.
Maybe it is because I am older, but when you predict your “enemy” will do what you want them to do, instead of thinking what they would do in their own best interest – you have already lost.
My point in posting here is to offer long term thinking, and not just views through “Big 10 rose colored glasses”. I said early on what I want is not as important as figuring out what the other side wants.
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“Maybe it is because I am older, but when you predict your “enemy” will do what you want them to do, instead of thinking what they would do in their own best interest – you have already lost.”
Excellent point and I could not agree more. Still tonight should be a good night for the Big Ten: adding Nebraska improves the value of the BTN and its finances, adds stability, complements your league’s research mission and upgrades the overall academic reputation of the league.
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So does anyone smarter than I care to proffer a guess as to how things are looking for my UC Bearcats, or is that beneath y’all?
🙂
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bobestes,
I am a UC alum, we are hosed.. when we went public in the 70’s we got strangled by tOSU and it is what it is. When UC was private, the P&G folks (see also the nipperts) kept it as a good academic private. When we went public, we became the State U to tOSU (what damage U college brought to UC) and it went downhill from there. CCM and DAA are still good, and the Med and Law school are steady, but ENG has slid far from the 70’s (when we were more like Ga Tech or Purdue).
*sigh*
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Do we stay BCS? That’s all I really care about in this shakeup.
Right now I feel like we have 55% chance.
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bob,
a proposal i floated early on was the BIG 3 and the “scraps” that would battle every year for a chance at a 4th spot in a football playoff
the “scraps” would be more regional players with an underlying asset such as God & Country (east and West versiions) and Magnolia (a collection of solid PRIVATE schools with a “southern feel”).
My God & Country East would be the “new” BE and The Magnolia would be “duke, wake, tulane, rice, SMU, Miami… etc..
In a God & Country you have 8 football + 8 basketball like the Big East.. with the 8 football schools being..
ND + BC
Army + Navy
UC + UL
Syracuse + Uconn
this was just a suggestion, but It would allow ND to remain “independent” but has schools in catholic cities close by (UL + UC) plus Armed Forces network (Army + Navy) and East Coast (syracuse + uconn). This could keep ND at the table as the BIG 3 would all need OOC and such a conference would offer decent opponents to say Miami (OH) or WKU….
just my thinking, but offers possibilities
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Just a completely unscientific guess, but I’d say above 80%. Thing is, if the B10+2 and/or SEC raid the ACC, the number of replacements could run out quickly if the ACC wants high academic standards as a requirement. Cincy should qualify, while WV, Lou, Mem, ECU, maybe S. FL might not.
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I am also a UC grad, double actually, & I don’t think it looks too good for our alma mater to stay in a BCS Conference
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Things are getting better back there academically.
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yes, but I will give frank much credit for getting me to see the difference between “education” and “research” as I now see that they are NOT one in the same, the best thing UC could do would be to lobby the state for a bigger slice of the pie. As a realist over the years I think tOSU has made chances slim to none as that would mean competition. Delany works for the Big 10, not the state of Ohio.
Just observations from an old fart.
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BEast could survive unless the B10+2 and SEC both go to 16. Cincy might then end up in the ACC or a MWC-leftover 16 hybrid 5th super conference. It is possible but unlikely that Cincy gets left out of the 4 or 5 super conferences, should they form (ACC might not go past 12, but with a P16, SEC16, and B10+6 they probably would.)
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Yeah, the last couple of years have been pretty damn fun. It would be a shame to go back to the bad old irrelevant days.
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bob,
it is tough when your primary market (southern ohio and northern kentucky) are the border for the Big 10 and SEC (tOSU & UK). Maybe George Clooney should get vocal for UC. UC’s strength in the “arts” sure has not hurt his career!
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This Husker would like to thank all of you for the warm welcome. I’m amazed how well this move has been received both here in Lincoln and by Big Ten fans. I can’t wait to see all of you at Memorial Stadium in the near future.
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Yep, Welcome Huskers!
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http://insidetexas.com/news/story.php?article=2432
…Our source also spoke to a high-ranking SEC official who reports that no invitation to join the SEC has been extended to Texas A&M and none is expected to be offered.
Our information indicates that any invitation to A&M was contingent upon either Texas or Oklahoma joining the league as well. But the Horns and the Sooners appear to both be onboard to allign with an expanded Pac-10…
I’m not burying the aTm to the SEC option just yet. Seems odd that Gene Stallings would be lobbying so hard for this inside the state if the SEC was no longer interested. The guy’s a former AL coach with plenty of connections out east.
But there is the possibility that the SEC and B10+2 do nothing for awhile, leaving the P16 as the only conference beyond 12. Not a big a handicap for P16 as the numbers would suggest, because of scheduling they’d still only have a 9-game conference schedule, no different than the current P10’s and just one more than the SEC and B12’s.
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I know this flies completely in the face of what is now conventional wisdom, but I was wondering if anyone else is hearing the same rumblings that I have – that A&M is still contemplating the Big Ten?
If this turned out to be true it would make this one of the most interesting multi-dimensional chess games I’ve ever seen. Tamu’s AD, as you know, was AD at Nebraska in a prior life. The fact that there hasn’t been speculation almost lends credence to this.
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Unlikely, but possible.
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Intriguing, though. A&M is AAU, it would sell a lot of BTN subscriptions in Texas, especially SE Texas. If you can’t get UT, why wouldn’t A&M be acceptable as a second choice if they were interested? Of course, expressions of interest like this might be designed to gain leverage with the real desired target destination.
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Consider the source right now. UT will do everything in its power to get aTm to go with them.
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hangtime,
i noticed that as well, it is from a LONGHORN site, which makes me think that A&M to the SEC is enough of a worry to try and “spin” it.
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Mik Slive is in College Station communicating the detais f the SEC offee this evening. Of course the Texas site wants to pretend the offer doesn’t exist but one does.
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Addict
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So basically the PAC-16 will be east vs west. Two different cultures and seemingly each division will have their own agenda. I just don’t see how they can create a strong sense of comradery. However maybe that’s the idea. I can see a strong rivalry between the Texas and California schools forming. That would makefor some fun games and an awesome ccg.
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Welcome Huskers. Though you beat the living holy crap out of my beloved Spartans when last we met, Nebraska is a home run addition to the B10. Welcome Aboard!
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What outside a poster on the Northwestern Board and a Radio station in KC points to Texas being any option for the big 10? Am I missing something?
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Latest from PURPLE Book Cat, FWIW:
6/11 Evening Update
“There is an unanticipated and fiery power struggle within the Texas academic and athletic leadership over conference affiliation. Notre Dame, likewise, is positioning itself. The Big East is no longer sustainable for Notre Dame.
It comes down to the concessions the Big Ten is willing to make. Will the Big Ten schools allow the Big Ten to scale back to 7 games for certain schools, for all schools, or will the entire conference stay at 8 games? Thought is that if it involved BOTH Texas and ND, the conference will agree to it.
Big Ten believes Texas will not settle for the Pac 10, and that there is a major split within the administration about what is best for Texas. Unclear, at this point, which side will prevail.
Texas also must wait until the Big 12 completely dismantles, and wants to make sure as many former Big 12 members get homes. Pac 10 targeting non Big 12 members as well.
Texas is up in the air – there is real anger that the Big 10 broke up the Big 12 with some Texas decision makers. Other Texas decision makers were complicit all along.”
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More
“Also, the sense is that Nebraska may have came too soon for the rest of the conference. Admins on the phone with the schools to hang with the plan.
Nebraska complicating things with comments toward Texas, fueling the anti-Big Ten crowd in Austin. Emotional tension high in Austin meetings. Another phone call with conference presidents tonight.
That’s all I have for now.”
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What was said that wasn’t true? The Big 12 is financially viable without Nebraska and Colorado, it isn’t with the South gone sans Baylor. The same case, that schools were replacable, was made by pro-Texas posters many times early in this process. The problem for Texas is that it isn’t optimally financially viable. Which is fine, again, nobody realistic has a problem with looking out for #1. Just don’t expect blame-shifting to go unanswered. If Texas has a problem with that, and it truly cuts off the Big Ten as an option, then they were never seriously considering it anyway. Maybe they should have run the numbers a long time ago, if they wanted a healthy conference for everyone and not just themselves.
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I’m not buying it….I think he’s covering his butt for prior posts………
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I’ve wondered about the consequences of Perlman’s statements.
But during Delaney’s press conference he also mentioned that one team leaving should never bring down a conference, and played up the family/small company atmosphere of the Big10. There is no question this was meant to be in contrast the Big12’s dysfunctional union.
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“I’ve wondered about the consequences of Perlman’s statements.”
What consequences? If the Big Ten thought they were getting a pissing post for Texas political spin, they haven’t been paying attention. Do you really think that at some point in the last two weeks that Texas didn’t indicate their displeasure with the Big Ten for desiring Nebraska? Didn’t stop the Big Ten. Whatever bridges were burned were burned at that point. Quite possibly no bridges were burned, just have to see how it all unfolds.
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Should not be done. Equal members. Period. All in or get out!
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Let’s have 7 official home games for all. 4 pods where you only play the teams in your pod and another pod. Annual rivalries between traditional Big10 schools that aren’t in the conference schedule can be played non-conf.
I’d be for it (though I don’t think Texas by itself in the southwest would be a stable configuration).
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I think 8 is the min. It starts to become a collection of independents at some point.
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Total BS.
Why would Texas care about finding homes for other Big 12 members. Really are they helping K-state? Iowa State?
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Not all members are equal. They want to keep a few remora around to clean their gills.
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What a great analogy… I’m still rollin’…
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It happened with the SWC. League hung around for 2 years to help everyone find a home, even though the original plan was 1 year.
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Not KSU or ISU, but they need TTU, OU and OSU to have homes in the Pac-10 before they can do anything.
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What do people think about the Pac-16 plan to have only two interdivisional games, no championship game, and send the Pac-8 Division champ to the Rose Bowl and the Texas Division champ to the Fiesta Bowl?
Seems like an awful deal for Texas and Oklahoma (no Rose Bowl) and an awful deal of Colorado and the Arizona schools (only one game in California every two years).
Shouldn’t be a problem for Tech, Ok State, or A&M/Kansas since they’ll like mostly playing their old conference rivals and they’re no threat to win the division and go to the Rose Bowl or Fiesta Bowl anyway.
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I can’t imagine the other conferences let them choose two BCS bowls.
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If the Pac-16, Big Ten+, and SEC end up as the only three relevant 16 team conferences and they want to keep the BCS format in place instead of starting a playoff, I’d do it like this:
Rose Bowl – Pac-16 Champ vs Big Ten+ Champ
Sugar Bowl – SEC Champ vs Big Ten #2
Cotton Bowl – SEC #2 vs Pac-16 #2
Orange Bowl – At Large vs At Large
Fiesta Bowl – At Large vs At Large
At Large selections can be a third team from the Pac-16, Big Ten+, or SEC or a champion of another league that finishes the season ranked #14 or higher (any champion that finishes #8 or higher is guaranteed a spot).
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If those particulars are true, I’m sure the shotgun marriage that is the PAC 16 will last about as long as the WAC16.
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That’s one of the reasons that I want A&M in the SEC. The Pac 10 proposal is largely a sham. The only thing it delivers is more TV money (and how much more is extremely speculative, and probably overstated). I’m a huge baseball fan, and the setup they are talking about for that sport since Colorado does not field a team (three pods of 5 teams playing a double round robin, but no cross pod competition) is even worse that “joining the Pac 10” and not getting a chance to go to the Rose Bowl.
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I don’t see it happening. Join the Pac-10 but be segregated from the Rose Bowl? Nope.
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Just adding. Why do I keep allowing work to get in the way of expansion-palooza??
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HA HA!
God I think we all know that feeling.
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Alan,
embrace it..
feel it..
love it..
I still like the poster early on who had to show his wife that Frank the Tank was not a porn site for all the time he was spending on it….
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Either this article or the rumor mill has it backwards as to the split inside aTm:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/colleges/topstories/stories/061210dnospoaustinreport.92f8114a.html
… The official, who has knowledge of Thursday’s meeting in Austin between Texas and Texas A&M officials, said the Aggies are torn about which direction to take. When asked to confirm rumors that A&M president R. Bowen Loftin wants to explore joining the SEC but that Aggies athletic director Bill Byrne wants to go the Pac-10, the official said, “I think you’re 100 percent right.”
Also, the official said, even A&M regents are split. That includes former A&M and Alabama coach Gene Stallings, who is pushing hard for A&M to go to the SEC.
”A&M is sitting on the fence,” the official said.
As for the future of Baylor, which seemed in doubt Thursday when Colorado accepted the Pac-10’s invitation to join, the official said the Bears could still end up in the Pac-10.
It all depends on A&M, the official said.
”If A&M doesn’t go, Baylor’s got a window to go,” the official said. “(Texas, Texas A&M and Texas Tech) — none of them have anything against Baylor. We’re not opposed to Baylor, and we’ve said positive things about them.”
But, the official continued, “The schools on the West Coast just don’t see the benefit of Baylor. The Pac-10 is talking more about Kansas and Utah because they bring different (television) markets. Baylor’s been lobbying everybody around Texas. They need to be lobbying California…”
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as an OU fan…I have something against Baylor. They are not a BCS school sorry. Go join the WAC.
Baylor or Kansas? Please………really?
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This has the potential for drawing out the Pac 16 from happening time wise. The longer that A&M hedges, Texas cannot accept a bid to the Pac 10. Why? Because, if the Pac 10 does not want Baylor, they want the freedom to choose their own replacement for A&M, so that, instead of 5 open spots, there are only 4. I am wondering if the Pac 10 will extend offers over the weekend to Texas et al.? This could drag out a bit.
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Nice tweet re the Lions. Jesus-h-Christ, is there a more inept organization of humans on the planet?
Honestly, if you gave this board of posters the NASA budget and literally no training, we could be better at launching shuttles and putting things in orbit than the Lions are at football. No doubt.
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Just want to add without reading any comments yet, thanks Frank for put up a new entry. Didn’t seem right for Nebraska’s day to be under “it’s all about Texas”. I can understand wanting to humor them any other day, just not today. 😉
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Right now, if the Texas Two are off the table for the Big10, I think the Big10 should try to get ND or the Maryland/Virginia pair or sit on 12 for now. Outside of those 3 (and longshot candidates UNC+Duke, FSU & Miami) only Rutgers is attractive enough on its own merits. However, Rutgers needs to be paired with someone, so unless ND or Maryland/Virginia budge, there’s no reason to take them + they’ll always be there. Mizzou just doesn’t do it (except maybe as filler as school 16). They have enough population to pay for themselves, but their brand is meh, their athletics are meh, and their academics& research would place them below all current Big10 schools.
Maryland+Virginia may very well become available if the SEC somehow wins the TAMU sweepstakes. I don’t see Texas coming north by its lonesome (unless ND joins), and as the 14th team, VTech makes the most sense for the SEC (I’m sure they’d want UNC, but I don’t think UNC wants them).
Double chessmatch indeed.
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You love Rutgers but are anti-Mizzou due to the brand, athletics, and academics.
Brand? Neither have a big national brand. Even.
Athletics? Mizzou by a country mile.
Academics? Decent edge to Rutgers (US news 66 to MU 102).
Guess I’m missing something….
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In research (the academics that matter to the Big10 presidents), Rutgers would fall squarely in the middle of the Big10; Mizzou would be the worst by far. I agree that they are even on brand (if anything, an edge to Mizzou), but they are about even in football (really the only sport that matters for expansion purposes). Plus, Rutgers offers the potential to penetrate the NYC market; you may argue whether it is realizable or not, but the potential is there. There’s not much potential for Mizzou delivering more than what it currently can deliver.
As an aside, Nebraska is also worse than any current member of the Big10 academically, but they have a good brand and a fanatical following.
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Agree that Rutgers academics are better. Do you really want to stick with Rutgers being equal to MU in football? Last 3 years:
Rutgers:
9-4 (3-4)
8-5 (5-2)
8-5 (3-4)
Mizzou:
8-5 (4-4)
10-4 (5-3)
12-2 (7-1)
Mizzou performed much better in a far more difficult football conference. Outside of a couple great years with Leonard and Rice in the backfield, Rutgers football has never amounted to anything.
Missouri is a far better basketball program as well, with 2 elite 8 finishes in the past 8 years.
And if you care about ladies golf (jk ladies) Mizzou is in the 50s of the director’s cup standings, Rutgers in the 80s.
It’s no contest really.
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Bad-assness of uniforms and nickname definitely go to Missouri. 😉
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Considering that a basketball power like Kansas may well find itslf without a conference, I don’t think basketball factors in to the equation here, much less the Olympic sports. You can quibble about one school being a few wins better or worse in football, but they’d both be around average in the Big10 going forward. Maybe Rutgers would be a little worse, but the slight difference in football doesn’t overcome the big difference in academics, and Mizzou simply doesn’t bring more money (BTN subscribers or national interest) than Rutgers.
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Mo is in the high 30s, low 40s in Director’s Cup standings; RU is in the 90s.
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Notre Dame/Maryland/Virginia/UNC/Duke/FSU & Miami.
I like your thinking.
I realize those last two would never garner the necessary votes, but together they equal a UFlorida in recruiting and would bring a lot of expanded regional excitement.
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Another advantage to raiding the ACC is that it opens up the southern part of the ACC to the next round of expansion when the Big10 can become the Big20. If Maryland & the Virginia schools go, the ACC is weakened, and FSU & Miami will be looking for new homes soon as well; even the Carolina schools would consider the unthinkable. In that phase, the core and southern parts of the ACC will have to decide whether they join the league that already has league stalwarts Maryland & Virginia (and has the better academic reputation) or the SEC. Since I simply don’t see UNC, Duke, and GTech being amendable to joining the SEC (while Florida may not want the 2 ACC schools in the SEC), I think the chances are good that the Big16 could pick up 4 of UNC, Duke, GTech, FSU, and Miami) to become the Big20. If I had to guess, I’d say those 4 would be UNC, Duke, GTech, and Miami. The SEC picks up NCSU, Clemson, FSU, and WVU to go to 18. The SEC gets the better football schools (on average), the Big10 gets the better academic schools.
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BTW, in that scenario, I foresee FSU going to the SEC West (with Vandy) (as a condition of Florida allowing them to join; UF doesn’t want FSU in the same division. Then the SEC West would include ‘Bama, Auburn, FSU, & LSU. Welcome to the SEC, A&M!
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Right now, the only schools I’d be excited about the Big10 getting are those that fall squarely in the middle (or better) of the Big10’s academic range and deliver at least enough cable subscribers to pay for themselves or those that provide a special oomph.
Rutgers falls in to the first category (and provides the potential of entry in to NYC). Maryland & Virginia as well (Virginia also has decent recruiting grounds). Same with UNC & Duke (plus they’re in the south and a demographically growing region as well). FSU & Miami fit the second category, as does ND to a greater extent. Texas, of course, provides both.
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Since the beginning of these expansion discussions, I cannot understand how Rutgers can be so high on the “supposed” list of BigTen invitees…
I should have counted how many times Mr. Delaney stated Nebraska was a very good “FIT” into the BigTen. Nebraska is academically, athletically, culturally, geographically a good FIT. FIT seems to be a BIG word, AND Mr. Delany stated that any future candidates would have to FIT as well.
Rutgers is Jersey, Jersey is not Wisconsin, or Minnesota, or Illinois… and certainly is not Nebraska. Sorry, Mr Paterno, you’ll need to find a different punching bag. If FIT is THE word, then Rutgers ONLY fits academically. Culturally (are you serious?), athletically–not even close. It has only been in Schiano’s tenure that Rutgers is even spoken in football terms. Their overall athletics are bad at best. Plus, having spent a fair amount of my working life along the eastern seaboard, Rutgers provides NO interest to the NYC metro (unless you’re an alum). I have nothing against Rutgers or New Jersey (except for Newark) personally–just seems an odd choice to me.
IMHO, Pitt–Culture=FIT Academics=FIT Athletics=FIT Footprint=notsomuch (already in BigTen footprint). Missouri–Culture=FIT Academics=maybe Athletics=fit Footprint=FIT. Kansas– Culture=FIT Academics=maybe Athletics=FIT Footprint=maybe. Notre Dame–Culture=notsomuch (see independent, catholic school) Academics=fit (not AAU, but not bad) Athletics=FIT Footprint=FIT. Syracuse–Culture=maybe Academics=maybe Athletics=FIT Footprint=fit (NYC market–maybe, though not necessarily). Texas–Culture=notsomuch (see maybe too BIG) Academics=FIT Athletics=FIT Footprint=FIT. Maryland–Culture=maybe Academics=FIT Athletics=FIT Footprint=FIT. Virginia==Culture=maybe Academics=FIT Athletics=FIT Footprint=FIT. Georgia Tech–Culture=maybe (closer to BigTen culture than SEC) Academics=FIT Athletics=FIT Footprint=FIT.
Just thoughts… opinions are like ……. we all have one……
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It seems to me that after due diligence, assuming Texas is off the table, it would make sense for the Big Ten+ to break up the Big East to force ND’s hand. In the current landscape, ND isn’t going to join. But, if the BT+ grabs Rutgers and two of Cuse/Pitt/UMd, then Notre Dame will be obligated to join the Big Ten. I wouldn’t be shocked if the next expansion doesn’t happen until 2011.
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If we go with the boring Divisional format, which division do you guys think will be stronger in 2012?
East: Penn State, tOSU, Mich, MSU, Indiana, Purdue
West: Illinois, NW, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Neb
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Correction: 2011
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Delany has said there won’t be any divisions labeled North, South, East or West. He said he thought the NORTH/SOUTH divide in the Big 12 is what killed that conference. He claims the criteria for the Big Ten divisions will be competitive fairness, rivalries then geography in that order.
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I read that comment, but I would still bet anything that that will be the structure. Maybe the Division names will be something cool like Erie and Tundra, but that structure offers the best balance and maintains the most rivalries, in addition to its geographic symmetry.
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Eerie and Tundra,
Where those from the WWF Football league? Kidding.
I think your a little top-heavy in your EAST division. Having Ohio St, Michigan and Penn St. in the same division contradicts Delany’s rule of competitivness. I’d switch Penn St. with Illinois. Other than that it looks good.
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Weren’t those / you’re a
I should step away from the keyboard, I’m way to tired to type coherently.
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Don’t forget, you can have permanent cross-division rivals in 12-team conference. The SEC does it. I was watching a video on the BTN where they talked about this. One of the suggestions was this:
Bo
~~~~~~
Michigan
Nebraska
Michigan State
Minnesota
Iowa
Illinois
Woody
~~~~~~
Ohio State
Penn State
Wisconsin
Purdue
Indiana
Northwestern
Then they suggested cross-rivals as follows:
Michigan-Ohio State
Nebraska-Purdue
Michigan State-Penn State
Iowa-Wisconsin
Illinois-Northwestern
Minnesota-Indiana
I’m not a 100% behind this. I think if you’re going to split up the four premiere teams, you should have them play each other in cross-games, so despite the Land Grant Trophy, I’d pair PSU with Neb. Now as a fan that just came into the Big Ten family today, I not familiar with all the rivalries, but is splitting up Minnesota and Wisconsin a good idea?
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As a Wisconsin fan, I would hate that setup. The teams I most want the Badgers to play are Iowa, Nebraska, Minnesota, and Michigan in that order. All four are in the opposite division.
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I read that as: PSU, Michigan, and OSU better figure out which school is getting shuffled to the west, because all three aren’t going to be in the same division. PSU with a protected against OSU? Likely imo.
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Delany can divine competitive fairness? If you had competitive fairness in B12, you would have split up UNL/KSU and CU the first few years. Then split up OU/UT/TT the next few. B12 North dominated in the early years as much as B12 South dominates now. Don’t see E/W divide killing the SEC. Only thing that killed the B12 was the B10. They simply had too much money to offer and UNL wisely took it.
If there is something that will kill the ACC, its lack of a sensible division. That was also the trigger that killed the WAC.
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Agreed. The ACC’s divisions are nonsensical. I follow football pretty closely and basketball religiously and I can’t tell you what the divisions are off the top of my head. I can easily name the Big Twelve and SEC divisions because they make sense either for rivalry purposes or geography purposes.
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Just for fun… some stats to mull over when considering competition…
Big Ten Football Titles
1. Michigan-42
2. Ohio State-34
3. Minnesota- 18
4. Illinois- 15
5. Wisconsin- 11
T5. Iowa – 11
7. Purdue- 8
T7. Northwestern- 8
9. Michigan State- 6
10 Penn State- 3
11. Indiana – 2
12. Nebraska – 0
All-TIme Wins——–Win Percentage
1. Mich – 877 —–.737
2. Neb – 827 —–.701
3. Oh St-819 —–.717
4. Penn St-811 —-.691
5. Minn – 635 —–.560
6. Wisc – 614 —–.542
7. Mich St-592 —–.570
8. Iowa – 580 —–.513
9. Purd – 571 —–.516
10. Ill – 563 —–.500
11. NW – 458 —–.416
12. Ind – 433 —–.405
As has been said once or twice… talk amongst yourselves…
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Ford Division
Michigan
tOSU
Michigan State
Minnesota
Purdue
Northwestern
Motorola Division
Nebraska
Penn State
Iowa
Indiana
Wisconsin
Illinois
You could give every school a protected cross division rival. I think nine conference games is the way to go. Such as Indiana-Purdue, Illinois-Northwestern, Iowa-Minnesota, Penn St-Michigan State, Wisconsin-tOSU, Michigan-Nebraska. How’s that for a start?
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I love it, except for the selling out to corporations part.
But with 12 schools, I doubt there will be much support for 9 games and losing an OOC home game every other year.
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I saw someone on another board (think IA State) suggest the critters vs the dudes. I was amused simply because there are 6 critters, 5 obvious dudes and a tree.
Critter Division
Michigan (wolverines)
Minnesota (gopher)
Northwestern (wildcats)
Wisconsin (badgers)
Penn State (nittany lions)
Iowa (hawkeyes)
Dudes Division
Michigan State (spartans)
tOSU (buckeyes)
Purdue (boilermakers)
Nebraska (cornhuskers)
Indiana (hoosiers)
Illinois (illini)
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The East/West split is the most natural. They can be called Gr8 Plains & Gr8 Lakes (I’m thinking ahead to when/if there’s 16). It keeps most of the current rivals together. To retain the rest, just have a cross-division rival, such as…
Iowa vs. PSU
IL vs. OSU (IlliBuck)
MN vs. UM (Lil’ BJ)
NU vs. IU
NW vs. PU
UW vs. MSU
As has been said before, the division strength will vary from year to year. The ACC’s divisional aligmnments are brought up for a reason. (Can anyone really name who’s in which division in the ACC, w/o looking it up?) If the BT tries to be too creative, it may end up backfiring (like the ACC).
Besides, at present, the divisions would be relatively even. Iowa + UW + UNL are comparable to OSU + PSU + UM. Also, IL + MN + NW is comparable to IU + MSU + PU.
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I think Illinois/Minn/Northwestern is a better bottom three than Indiana, Purdue, Michigan State.
Everything else is exactly in line with my thinking.
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To the surprise of many in the East … it may be the West (2011). Either way, Nebraska is a great addition to the conference. As a warm welcome to to the Big Ten, I would suggest a “movement” within the conference to welcome Nebraska with a standing ovation by all fans to at every Big Ten stadium, and at all other inaugural conference sporting events. What a wonderful way to welcome our newest familiy member.
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Thank you Frank and the numerous posters over the last few weeks who have been positively passionate about adding Nebraska to the Big Ten conference.
Having our admittance finally come to fruition today has provided me and I assume several thousand other Husker fans a huge sense of relief while looking forward to competing against our new brethren beginning in the fall of 2011. I am confident in predicting that the immediate hospitality you and others have extended in recent weeks and today will be fully reciprocated on your trips to Lincoln in the future.
Is it bad that I find happiness at the thought of leaving the Big 12 in Nebraska’s rear-view mirror even though we still compete with them in the coming athletic season?
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If I were a Nebraska fan, and a traditionalist, I would be a little sad about leaving behind old Big 8 friends like Kansas, Missouri, OU, K-State, Ok State, Colorado, ISU. That’s your history. Your heritage.
Those annual battles with the Sooners for all the marbles. The trips to the Orange Bowl under the old bowl system. Terry Tagge, Johnny Rodgers, I.M. Hipp, Jarvis Redwine, Mike Rozier…
That ship sailed 14 years ago, though. The Big 12 killed all of that. Killed the Orange Bowl being the traditional big prize. Killed the season ending rivalry with OU. Forced you to play second fiddle to the Texas schools in the league power structure. Heck, I miss the old Big 8!
That last 14 years is over now. Welcome to the Big 10.
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cjb56,
As a Husker fan for all 43 years, I do feel bad for Iowa State, Kansas, Iowa St, and now Missouri simply because they seem ill-prepared for their futures. They will always be a part of our history and our heritage just as the Sooners and Okie State have been.
But you hit it on the head when you said “the Big 12 killed all of that”. It did with the Oklahoma teams when we didn’t get to play the Sooners every year. It will do the same with our B12 North brethren.
Unfortunately, these last 14 years have caused great devisiveness amongst B12 teams. The unequal revenue sharing (that UNL benefits from) and other power-shifting decisions created a rift that took the unified Big 8 and turned it into a dog-eat-dog world of the B12.
As a result, along with the lopsided win-loss records against these same B12N teams dating back to the 60s, most Huskers fans will tell you that we haven’t had a true rival these last 14 years (no matter how desperately CU tried to claim otherwise). Therefore, I personally don’t feel any great connection, let alone obligation, to our friends in the B12N. Maybe it was there as part of the Big 8. But it has long since been lost.
As such, I am quite anxious for a true conference partnership amongst all members of the Big Ten with a true conference rival (or two or three). I like to think playing Iowa on Thanksgiving Friday fits that bill in addition to bringing substantive marquee value. Giving us that sense of connection, that sense of partnership lacking for the last decade plus.
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Thanks for the welcome messages, everyone. You are certainly right – it is bittersweet in some ways. The relationships with other schools are tough to let go of and there won’t be as many away games near Kansas City. There is a lot to look forward to in the Big 10, however. I wish we could get started even sooner than fall 2011. Best wishes.
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You’re going to love it here. Trust us. And we’re just as happy to have you.
We’ll learn to hate each other later. But in a friendly “I still want you to kick ass in your bowl game” kind of way.
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AND if you win a Big Ten football title more than once every 14 years, you’ll have done better than our last expansion to the league. 😉
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Correction. Once every eleven years. 😉
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3/20 != 1/11
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Correct your correction:
every 5.33 years
started play in 1993 = 16 seasons
3 BigTen championships: 1994, 2005, 2008
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I know. I was being selective, just to have a little fun with our Penn State friends. You got that first one quickly, but it took a while for that second one. 😉
Actually, I was thrilled when Penn State joined the Big Ten…and I still feel they are one of the elites in the league and all of college football. It’s been a great series with Ohio State, and I look forward to that big game every season.
I expect the same from Nebraska. The Big Ten doesn’t expand often, but when they do…they do add quality.
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Even if your math is wrong, it’s a good point. A lot of people expected Penn State to win the Big Ten almost every year when they entered the conference.
Winning the Big Ten isn’t as easy as it looks. Of course, tOSU might disagree.
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Jack Swarbrick spoke with the Tribune Today.
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/06/a-week-of-movement-doesnt-move-notre-dame.html
Swarbrick: “It very well may happen,” Swarbrick said. “But my best guess is, there may be a little bit of a break here as people analyze the situation and reflect on their own interest. We may have a bit of a pause before there’s more activity.”
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Interesting. Delany did say they would fall back to their original 12-16 month timeline for studying expansion. I think Notre Dame is starting to worry about getting left out in all of this and may look to keep their options open.
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very interesting.
they cancel the game with Army in Yankee Stadium!!
Lou Holts changed his long standing mind on ND Independence, and thinks they should join.
Bob Davie has said similar stuff about being left out.
you have to start wondering if ND is starting to pave the path to the conference.
Still a long way off on the language, but they are definitely worrying about being left out.
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I haven’t posted many times but I’ve thoroughly enjoyed reading everything since January. Even though expansion will go on, I feel I can spend some quality time with my wife without missing too much. Thanks Frank for the stream of entertainment. I also want to welcome UNL and it’s fans. I spent my junior and senior years at Bellevue High School outside Omaha, NE and was a die-hard Husker fan. My dad retired (USAF) and I ended up at PSU and am now a die-hard Nittany Lion fan. I look forward to the UNL/PSU games.
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I think Delany should extend the Original Northwestern Message Board Rumor Offer to Texas and Notre Dame tonight.
East: Penn State, tOSU, Mich, MSU, Indiana, Purdue, Notre Dame
West: Illinois, NW, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Neb, Texas
Texas and Notre Dame play everyone in their division and one cross-divisional game against each other, for a total of seven conference games.
Everyone else plays everyone in their division and two inter-divisional games against the six non Texas/Notre Dame members, for a total of eight conference games.
Texas and Notre Dame end conference play a week early so that they can play Texas A&M and USC on the last week of the season.
Conference Championship Game matches up the two divisional winners (7-1 beats 6-1) and cycles between JerryWorld, Lucas Oil Stadium, and Soldier Field.
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If UT and ND wanted to be in the Big 10, they would already be in the Big 10. You act as if those two are biting their nails waiting for a Big 10 invite.
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Creating different rules for different members creates animosity. For the long term good of the conference, I’d rather stand pat at 12 than add UT/ND with concessions.
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I agree with your principle, but which specific school would have problems with that structure?
Everyone gets exactly one game vs Texas or Notre Dame (including Texas and Notre Dame, which seems fair), everyone gets an equal cut of the huge TV money influx, and everyone gets a chance to play each team in their division and guarantee a spot in the conference championship by winning all their games.
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You have to have complete equality or the whole thing falls apart. See, e.g., Big 12.
Team “power” is cyclical as well. Minnesota was a powerhouse once, so was MSU, even might UM and OSU have had down years. It happens to everyone.
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As a B10 newbie, Delany made it clear today that he is looking for institutions that want to be part of the B10 amid assurances of equality and true partnerships and being a “good fit”. This has been a consistent message for him at other pressers addressing this same topic. I also think allowing special scheduling privileges to 2 new members is an incredibly, ill-conceived precedence to set, not only for new invitees but for existing members.
As such, I don’t see that specific model presented on the Northwestern blog as having a whole lot of merit.
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Frank,
looked at your twitter..
possible thought.. missouri and detroit start a new conference
Lions & Tigers – Oh My!
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Add Cal
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throw Baylor in there and your get some Bears!!
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When asked later if he was necessarily done with expanding to Big 12 Conference schools, Delany shook his head no.
“I wouldn’t want to talk about a particular school,” Delany said later the press conference to welcome Nebraska.
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/22509639
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Odd to release this at 5pm Friday and hold it Sunday unless you are trying to fly under the radar:
The University of Missouri Board of Curators has announced that it will hold a special meeting at 8 p.m. Sunday night at University Hall in Columbia. In a statement released to the media at 5 p.m. Friday, the board did not specify what would be discussed at the meeting. A board spokesperson was not available for immediate comment. The board wrapped up two days of meetings in Columbia on Friday afternoon.
Here is the complete release:
The University of Missouri Board of Curators will hold a special meeting at 8 p.m. Sunday, June 13, 2010, originating in 321 University Hall, Columbia, Mo., and at remote locations via conference telephone. The board will meet in open session to consider a motion to close the meeting. Notice is hereby given that the board of curators, upon such a motion duly made and adopted, may hold a closed session and conduct closed votes pursuant to Sections 610.021 (1) and 610.021 (12) RSMo, relating to matters in those provisions, which include confidential or privileged communications with counsel and sealed bids and related documents, sealed proposals and related documents or documents related to a negotiated contract.
http://ht.ly/1XsoX
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A tip to the Tigers: Play nice with those Aggies, and maybe, just maybe, you can partner with them into the SEC.
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Why not the Big Ten? Why wouldn’t A&M be a good choice if Texas if off the table? AAU member, big following in a populous market, good regional football brand.
The Houston Chronicle tonight said the politics are that 1) TAMU is prepared to go its own way except 2) the athletic department administrators want to go to the Pac Ten (with Texas), and 3) the Regent faction led by Stallings wants the SEC. The paper reported that the the university administration does not want the SEC academic label. The Big Ten might be a good compromise, and why would the Big Ten say no? Texas was a key demographic in the planning.
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W,
after looking at A&M boards the past few days..
I get the feeling of OIL and WATER in a Big 10 + A&M situation.
I get the feeling of WHITE on RICE in a SEC + A&M situation.
Even on this board, we have been acting like A&M is the little sister. I have a feeling this attitude has not been similar in the SEC. with Arkansas and LSU, they have old friends and with BAMA they have some family ties. In the south I have a feeling this matters more than just a bottom line number.
any A&M or SEC folks care to tell me if I am right or wrong here?
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A&M to the Big 10 would be a little bit like A&M playing in the Northern Division of the Big XII–not entirely foreign, but slightly out of place. A&M to the Pac 10 would be like going to Mars.
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Interesting. Either they have an invite in hand and are planning to file that app., *or* it’s a “Who do we beg to get in now?” meeting.
Unless Mizzou has other issues they’re trying to deal with a quietly as possible…
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IMO, the addition of Nebraska makes the Big Ten stronger and is very much in keeping with the ideals of the conference that Frank laid out from the start. Since it appears that Texas and ND might not be in play any more, the “football fan” in us has risen to the surface. High academics, good athletics, tv set getter and, what I feel is high on the list, fit. The Big Ten has been strong for over 100 years because they have held these values in everything they do. There are no premadonnas and everyone shares. The Pac10 may get Texas, but so did the Big 8 and the Big XII. Where are those conferences today?
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That was another senior moment. I meant the SWC and the Big XII
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This might sting the Big 12 left-behinds a little.
———————————
Huskers football coach Bo Pelini dismissed the idea that he would miss Big 12 rivalries.
“I’m not a real emotional guy,” Pelini said before breaking into laughter.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=maisel_ivan&id=5277787
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As a major part of their football tradition Nebraskans have always said they have no football rivalry. Each game was important, the team should keep and even keel week to week and not get geeked up. Even in the heyday of the Big 8 with Oklahoma, the match-up was one of mutual respect, not an emotional one full of animosity. And Texas was OU’s rival. As much as Colorado tried to claim Nebraska as a rival, Nebraskans always said it wasn’t a rivalry. Nebraska fans quote what the the late Bob Devaney said about rivalries: “We have no rival. We are Nebraska.” Pelini is keeping to that tradition as well as joking about himself.
Sorry for that bit of Nebraska football tradition.
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What a great quote.
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I love that attitude. Just pointing out that Oklahoma, Missouri, and Kansas might not enjoy the quote and the laughter.
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The joke and the laughter had nothing to do with disrespecting old opponents, it was about Pelini’s temperment. We sometimes wonder if he wasn’t created in a test tube using a mix of Woody Hayes and Bobby Knight DNA. He was making a joke about himself, just as Osborne made a self-effacing comment about being concerned about the Big Ten votes coming in, which was about his loss in a Republican primary race for governor.
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I’m a Kansas fan. I wasn’t offended; you have to know Pelini.
His interview after the presser was equally coach speak/pragmatic.
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As a HUGE Nebraska fan, glad to be aboard! Have really enjoyed your info and the discussion here, even though I haven’t posted much. I’m thrilled to be a part of the Big Ten!
Oh, and add 😉
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Question for a Nebraska fan…
As a big ten fan I root for all big ten teams unless Penn state is playing them… Then I hope they get trounced. But I root for them knowing more wins by any big ten may well relate to more money for Penn state. Did big 12 fans have the same feeling even with the unequal revenue sharing?
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Of course – always rooted for the Big 12 in non-conference games – even Texas 🙂
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@Derek – Most fans were unaware of the unequal revenue sharing until Missouri brought it up. Most fans from all schools contained a fair amount of conference pride. I will continue to root for our now ex-brothers as old habits die hard.
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To be honest, it was on a case by case basis. There are occasions when you can see a team is going to get exposed, and if they’ve been trying to rub our nose in a squeaker victory we’re not going to get all choked up when it happens. But yeah, having some bragging rights after a good bowl season is nice, and a good measuring stick for where your team is really at.
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I echo the sentiments above, especially during bowl season… if the Big 12 teams did well, it seemed to validate to me how good the Huskers were.
Within conference play, I was also more likely to cheer for a B12S opponent on our schedule that year against a South team we weren’t playing for the same reason.
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As a die hard tOSU fan I never thought I would cheer for Michigan in anything unless they were on fire, or about to jump off of a bridge. (Which they kinda did by hiring Rich Rod) However, that was until they actually started losing all their games.
The turning point for me was Carr’s last game. At that moment I realized that I knew as much about Michigan as most Michigan fans. I was profoundly sad that Michigan hired a non Michigan man. It now bothers me when they lose Big 10 cellar dwellers.
I want tOSU to beat Michigan every time, go for 2 just like Woody did, but I want it to be against and undefeated Michigan team, coached by a Michigan man, with all the pageantry, tradition, pomp, and circumstance it deserves. This is what it means to be part of the Big 10.
I think Texas would rather run over smoking craters of football teams than have to move a boulder. I am not happy with Michigan being the way they are, yet I think Texas fans as a whole would be happy beating a wounded UNL or OU every year.
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Welcome Huskers. Here’s hoping you hang another 84-13 on the Gophers for old time’s sake.
Schadenfreudenly yours,
Wisconsin
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I gave a guy 50 points to take Minnesota. 😉
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The fullback for that Husker team used to be my personal trainer. He told me that in the second half the Huskers ran the same play over and over right up the middle in hopes that Minnesota would stop them, which they didn’t. The Huskers could have easily put over 100 on Minnesota in that game, probably even more.
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Now UW and UNL can fight over who is the real “big red”. Of course after last year’s NCAA BB tournament we already know: Cornell.
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CJR,
in basketball the only red that matters is IU!
cornell, sheesh
🙂
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I was referencing the team from Ithaca’s total dismantling of Bucky last March. And note: While IU hoops once mattered, it no longer matters. Until they part ways with the coaching fraud that is Tan Man.
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CJR,
shroom and I were debating Self for Crean, any thoughts?
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Tom Crean should send 3/4 of his paycheck to Dwyane Wade, because without Wade willing MU to the Final Four, the Tan Man would be lucky to be coaching in the Summit League by now.
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I believe Minnesota has a winning record on the Huskers.
We’ll see how long that lasts.
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IIRC, Osborne had to put back in the starters late in that Minnesota game due to the 60 player travel limit. The subs played so much they were worn out and he was afraid of injury.
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Hey… easy now… I remember that game… I remember how awful the Gophers were. Gophers now are maybe slightly better than that team—we need some new (real) leadership at the football helm…
I can still hang my hat on this…
Mythical Nat’l Champs: (maybe someday there’ll be a playoff) 😉
Minnesota = 6
Nebraska = 5
Wisconsin = 0
Someday, I’d like to see my Gophs’ compete for another one…
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Just gonna throw this out, I think many hear, like me, are big expansion junkies, but I do follow the sport pretty closely when the season gets going too. Started doing my own rankings a few years ago and found a good site to input those and have some good debate. Gets going pretty good as the season gets near. Not my site, but thought I’d pass it along http://www.bcsfanpoll.com
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I am not so sure everyone is really paying attention to the comments regarding Big Red — both on this site, in the news reports, columns (some of dubious merit), and from the B10. Nebraska is clearly inferior in population, geography, and income to Mizzou.
But product won out. Nebraska jumped the line of preening candidates on product alone. Only Texas and ND are more coveted (two more great product schools). And, it is the right move. You can’t expect to put on unwatchable dreck and get a rating. It’s not the 1960s — people have a world of choices.
Outside of UT and ND, the differentiation in product for possible candidates Rutgers, Cuse, Mizzou, Maryland, Virginia, Pitt, Kansas, GA Tech, Miami, et al. is much narrower. But product will still matter — and the prospect of product (i.e. durability of the program).
Two of the favorites of the commenters are Maryland and Virginia. Is there a worse product out there? Maybe Cuse in football. Seriously, these two schools are worse than Duke. I am pretty dubious about Rutgers, but even they have it all over MD and UVA. After kickoff, nobody is rooting for cable systems and demographic projections.
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I understand expanding the btn footprint but i would really love to see pitt in the big ten. Such a shame it’s wedged inbetween psu and osu!!! no other school left sans Texas and ND bring a more complete package.
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@Derek,
I agree 100%! I’ve been a big proponent of two universities for some time… UNL & Pitt. Pitt is a BT institution, academically, athletically & research-wise. It’ll be a shame if they’re left out b/c of TVs.
After NU & Pitt, I’d like to see MD, ND & RU/SU/UVA join.
I think that Intstitutional Fit (academics & research) is the most important characteristic. ND’s research #s not withstanding.
If there are fewer Power Conferences w/ more universities, then I believe their athletics will catch up. The Boise State’s, et al, of CFB will be fewer & further between, as student-athletes will want to be in one of the 4± Power Conferences. (I haven’t given up on UT/TAMU, I’m just not optimistic they’ll be joining.)
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Are you nuts? Maryland and Virginia have played in bowls more often than not this decade. They have beaten the likes of Miami and Florida State, which are still pretty decent programs. Maryland beat Purdue in a bowl game a few years back. You make them sound like conference cellar-dwellers, which they clearly are not. And they would add to the Big Ten brand athletically and academically.
Don’t get me wrong, football plays a part — a big part — but if the Big Ten used that at its sole scenario, Oklahoma would have received an invitation. Nebraska may not be deemed a Berkeley or Ann Arbor, but it’s a solid state university making a commitment to research. It will mesh well with other Big Ten schools in both the athletic arena and in the classroom.
Product means more than football. If you disagree with that, become an SEC fan.
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Product is more than football — all the schools listed are AAU and major research institutions. Read the whole post before commenting.
Pre-2004 ACC is pointless. Take a look at the Terps and UVA once the ACC got more competitive (adding VA Tech, BC, Miami).
For MD, the good times abruptly ended — two straight losing seasons, three mediocre seasons and then meltdown. Now you want them in the B10? Once the ACC got better, they took a nosedive. Troy State looks great in the Sun Belt, but I don’t think they’re ready for the SEC.
UVA? With the exception of 2007, it’s been one long slide since the conference beefed up.
Taking all the relevant evidence into consideration (and not you selective cherry-picking), these two schools cannot compete in the B10. They’re cannon fodder.
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Agreed on Syracuse and Virginia being lost causes in football.
Disagree on Maryland. They have a national title and nine ACC championships, most recently in 2001. They beat California recently in a non-conference series and seem to upset a few ranked ACC teams every year.
Their 54,000 seat stadium is a little worrisome, but I think they would bring a good enough football product (they also offer a much better basketball product than Virginia).
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apple,
in the B 10 or SEC I think they could expand the stadium, or use a Pro one for the BIG games. I agree about the basketball, away from UNC and Duke the Terp men & women BB will shine.
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See above response — the relevant comparison needs to be in the expanded ACC where the league more approximates the competition in the B10 (but, is still lagging).
As for upsets? That can be said about practically any mediocre BCS program — they all have a moment or two in the sun.
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Okay, I see your point about comparing since expanding to 12 and adding better programs. That’s fair.
Let’s start in 2005 since that’s when the league went to 12 and split into the weird divisions.
2005: MD 5-6 (3-5), VA 7-5 (3-5)
2006: MD 9-4 (5-3), VA 5-7 (4-4)
2007: MD 6-7 (3-5), VA 9-4 (6-2)
2008: MD 8-5 (4-4), VA 5-7 (3-5)
2009: MD 2-10 (1-7), VA 3-9 (2-6)
TOTAL: MD 30-32 (16-24), VA 29-32 (18-22)
Neither one is spectacular, but I don’t think either one is awful either. Certainly more respectable than Syracuse or Duke in that time period.
I’d take both if they’re available and we can offset them with a good program like Pitt or Notre Dame. If we only want one, I would go with Maryland since they bring basketball and a lot more research.
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I think they would be great additions in order to keep the brand what it is. We don’t need UVA or UM to be great football programs we just need them to be mediocre most of the time with an occasional great season.
They bring huge dollars, good recruiting, and even more important they allow the good teams to stay good. We want OSU, PSU, UM, UNL, ND, and TX to be great. Every conference needs role players.
With the line up mentioned above you not only want but need to have some cream-puffs in conference. These cream-puffs add millions of tv dollars, great recruits, great demographics, billions in endowments, loads to the academic reputation, and they allow the brand to shine!
Whats not to like?
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I would agree that they are inferior in population. I think Geography is probably a slight edge to Missouri. I know the eastern side of the Big Ten thinks Nebraska is WAY OUT WEST, but many from Omaha are directly from Chicago (UP, Sprint) and it is a 6 hour drive. 80% of the population in Nebraska is in the eastern 75 miles. The other 400 miles west of Lincoln is just to create space between the Big Ten / Midwest beliefs and Colorado (like the DMZ).
But Nebraska generates more income with athletics. In Missouri people get the Rams / Blues / Cardnils / Chiefs / Royals then Missouri sports. In Nebraska they have the HUSKERS. Baseball, football, wrestling, swimming, track, something called bas – ket – ball (?). It is only the Huskers, no sharing allowed.
Athletic Revenue Missouri – $57,700,000
Athletic Revenue Nebraska – $74,900,000
Lack of competition in Nebraska makes them more valuable.
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“The other 400 miles west of Lincoln is just to create space between the Big Ten / Midwest beliefs and Colorado (like the DMZ).”
Heh. The actual DMZ runs on a north/south line centered west of Greeley, Colorado. We never should have given that country to Colorado.
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It’s kind of interesting if you map out every FBS program in the continental United States. You can see a 500-mile wide empty strip separating the country into distinct eastern and western schools. Texas Tech is the only school that resides in this dead zone.
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There are only 3 things between Lincoln and Denver.
Wheat, Cattle, and Tornadoes
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There’s a whole lotta corn, too.
And the solid river of RVs on I-76 back and forth from the Front Range of Colorado to Lake McConaughy every warm weekend would beg to differ. If you’ve never seen it, it’s fairly amazing.
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@Patrick
You aren’t joking about the tornadoes. My family lost two houses in the span of five years.
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There’s really no difference in drawing power between Mizzou & Maryland or Virginia in football. Sure, on-the-field results may be different, but the Big10 (any conference) cares more about drawing power. Northwestern isn’t suddenly a more valuable property than Michigan even though we’ve been better than them on the field in recent years. In basketball, Maryland & Virginia get the edge. In academics, big win for Maryland & Virginia. Demographics: Decisive edge to Maryland & Virginia.
Oh, and I wouldn’t mind Miami either (I’d also probably take GTech, though unlike Miami, they can’t even guarantee to deliver their own city).
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Average attendance last season:
Mizzou 64k
Maryland 44k
Virginia 48k
Mizzou has a far better football program and has substantially more drawing power than Maryland and Virgina.
And are you sure you want to claim Virginia basketball is better than MIssouri? That’s quite a stretch. Missouri has two elite eight appearances in the last 8 years.
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Mizzou doesn’t travel. That’s why they get passed up by bowls for 6-6 Iowa State teams.
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But Maryland and Virginia football fans do travel to bowl games? The discussion was comparing Mizzou, Maryland, and Virginia. Mizzou has better fans and a far better program. Anyone who can’t see that is in denial.
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Ryan,
if academics matter, then UVA and MD have an edge..
if footprints matter, then UVA and MD have an edge..
missouri is just in a tough spot..
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If playing decent football matters, DeMatha High School has the edge.
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It’s just not a big enough difference. They’re all in the “mediocre” category. The Big10 simply isn’t going to take school A over school B just because school A draws 15-20K more per game when the 2 deliver the same amount of eyeballs and school B is a league ahead of school A academically.
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Missouri really doesn’t draw that much more normally than UVA. Its 61 to 54 for Virginia over the last 4 years when Missouri has been pretty good (That #1 ranking was only 2 seasons ago) and 55 to 53 since the B12 was formed. Most of those 14 years, UVA drew better. For Maryland, last year was the lowest in nearly 10 years. But they did have some really bad years in the 90s with attendance in the upper 20s..
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That’s why I expect GT to get a stronger push than many expect. GT is a better football school and probably has a much better shot at delivering the BTN to Atlanta (#8 DMA) with tons of B10 alumni and opening up southern recruiting. I think they’ll need an eastern/southern partner and Maryland will be it. I think those are the two most poachable ACC schools.
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added
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Wildcard:
Could we possibly see aTm stay and rebuild the B12 while TX goes to the B10+?
First off, I’m increasingly skeptical about the NW forum ‘updates.’ They sound a bit contrived, almost like the latter stages of a Nigerian email scam. For TX to make these leaked announcements of basically the P16 is a done deal and string out the other B12 South schools making similar announcements would look like a massive backstabbing (though the leaks from other schools may have been strategic framing of perception rather than based on actual events.) So a last minute switch seems highly unlikely.
OTOH, you could string together snippets of info from various sources to keep the dream alive. Most of the public statements start with, “Of course we’d prefer to keep the B12, but…” The NW board rumor includes, “TX doesn’t want to move until they find most of the B12 schools a safe home.”
The aTm AD today again stated how their first preference is to save the B12. There’s a strong contingent of Aggies who want the SEC, many primarily to get out of TX’s shadow. Yet many also realize the meatgrinder the SEC would be and the recruiting advantage it would provide those schools. Staying in the B12 if TX leaves would allow aTm to compete without big brother blocking the way. They’d still have to beat OU, but perhaps not until the conf champ game.
According to the NW board, TX is fighting for a 7-game conference schedule if they join the B10+. That would allow room for aTm, OU, and perhaps Tech and/or Baylor OOC.
If just TX, CO, and NE left, they could be replaced with BYU and maybe Louisville and Cincy. Won’t replace the TV $ TX and NE brought, but those schools bring TV appeal and a bigger footprint. Or might be BYU, CSU, and another Texas school (probably TCU, perhaps UH) if the numbers worked better.
The real key to retaining viability would be to partner with the P12 on TV contracts and a cable network. Losing TX and NE hurts, but doesn’t kill that. Assuming P11 adds Utah, you’d still have plenty of top 25 teams and 1-3 more states than the earlier proposed B12-P10 network that looked promising.
A Neo-B12 and P12 partnership keeps the P11’s academics ‘cleaner’ as compared to adding TT, OU, and OK St to the P16. Also makes the Arizona schools happy.
So basically you’d have a weaker B12 from the loss of TX and NE virtually merging with the P10 and adding Utah, BYU, and 2 other programs that are top 25 teams or have been in the past. Offset the loss of 2 heavyweights with 2 strong draws and 2 decent schools. Probably viable.
Keeps the BCS AQ and the Fiesta Bowl.
Best case scenario for aTm, if they are realistic. Much better chance of appearing in the conf champ game multiple times. Internally the school’s assessment was that they most likely would perform similar to AR in the SEC, which has never won a conf championship there in football. Going to the SEC won’t rebuild the program near as fast as winning will. Get the nat’l TV publicity of playing in and winning the conf title game.
The big question is if OU would stay or go SEC. But I keep reading (and this is just a gut assessment of all the sources I’ve seen, nothing concrete) that the SEC isn’t really interested in OU without TX or aTm. Would the SEC even expand if they can’t get a Texas school, the B12 survives, and the P10 doesn’t go past 12? If they don’t immediately respond with expansion when TX announces, that might be a good enough window in which to get the B10+ deal done. And even if OU does leave, there still might be enough critical mass for the Neo-B12 and P12 partnership to work.
Oh yeah, remember that Fox (network, not FSN) offer to be the network of the B12? That was contingent on TX and NE staying in. But would they still be open to making a smaller offer? If the P16 could get $20 mil per school, could the P12-B12 get $13 or 14? If so, that is still an improvement, one that most of the B12 schools could live with. Can the P11 schools get more in partnership than by themselves? And recall that the B12 contract can be immediately renegotiated if the conference starts a cable channel, so that could bring the $ relief aTm is looking for.
So get a Neo-B12 on track, and TX could then leave for the B10+. That’s about the only way I could see the NW board rumor still being true. Not saying I buy it, but I won’t completely dismiss the NW rumor yet.
Hopefully we’ll pretty much know by Tuesday.
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Great post. Really well thought out.
I don’t think the P12/B12 Fox contract would reach $14 million per school, but who knows.
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Let’s say they P11 adds Utah and Neo-B12 adds BYU, TCU, and Cincy.
USC, OU, Utah = usually legitimate nat’l title contenders
OR, TCU, BYU = possible title contenders, good TV appeal
UCLA, WA, aTm, CO = past title contenders who could cycle back
ASU, AZ, OR St, Cal, OK St, TT = frequently top 25 teams
Stan, Cincy, KS, MO, KSU = sometimes top 25 teams
That’s 21 of 24 teams with potential TV appeal (top 25 at the time), 16 that usually have some appeal. You can get some pretty good cross-conference matchups from those.
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Since star power/TV draw would be a big selling point for the Neo-B12, this might be a situation where Boise St made sense. Add BYU-Boise-TCU. ESPN absolutely LOVES Boise, have you seen how many of their games are already on the ESPN schedule? America likes triumphant underdogs, and Boise has been adopted in that regard.
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What do you think the ratings for Boise-OU would be? Instant rivalry.
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I’d rather see Oklahoma-Oregon. Those two fanbases HATE each other.
Cinci is a better add for the B12 than Boise.
I love where you’re going with this and I would love to see someone deliver the pitch to the B12 and P10 decision makers (it would probably have to be in separate rooms at this point).
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from the dallas paper..
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/061210dnospoaustinreport.92f8114a.html
“Some connected with A&M are ready.
“There was a time when I really felt like Texas and Texas A&M should be in the same conference … but at the same time I think Texas A&M is now big enough to stand on its own,” regent and Aggie football legend Gene Stallings told syndicated radio host Paul Finebaum. “We don’t necessarily need to be piggy-backed by anyone else.”
But Texas A&M has to be certain about an SEC bid, which hasn’t been extended yet, according to a source. The SEC would have to add an additional team to balance A&M in its division setup and would require additional money from its TV partners. Maryland and North Carolina from the Atlantic Coast Conference could be possibilities.”
First a Charlotte NC paper and now a Dallas TX paper both looking at an ACC school to go with A&M to the SEC (here Maryland and UNC).
any A&M or SEC folks care to comment on such a move by your schools?
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UNC to the SEC?!
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Don’t see it. If the SEC picks off a team from the ACC to complement A&M, it will be Virginia Tech.
The only NC school the SEC might be able to get is State, if only so the Wolfpack can craft a new image and escape the blue shadows at the other ends of the Research Triangle. But politically, breaking ties with UNC might be difficult, even for the pot of SEC gold.
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The longer this goes on, the more pressure builds on A&M officials to go to the SEC. I’m extremely sceptical about the supposed lack of an invite at this point–if that was really a concern, one would think that we would have pulled the trigger on the Pac 10, with the simple explanation to the fans being that was the only choice available. The overwhelming sentiment among A&M fans is to take the SEC deal, to such an extent that, if the school ends up going to the Pac 10, there may be an MSU style riot. If the TV revenue is similar (and the SEC money woudl be guaranteed, rahter than a speculative figure based upon a yet to be established cable network), it’s hard to see how we could pass up the prospect for much stronger ticket sales in the SEC as opposed to the Pac 10, which will probably prove a weaker draw at the Kyle Field box office than the old Big XII.
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Wait – aTm fans won’t go to aTm home games because they might have to play Washington?!?
Somehow I think that the Aggie faitful will continue to support them.
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I don’t know if the issue is so much TAMU taking an SEC bid as it is getting offered one. The SEC isn’t going to 13 and isn’t taking Baylor and probably isn’t taking Mizzou. (Although maybe that’s what they’re meeting about Sunday. Doubt it though.)
It’s clear to me that TAMU doesn’t want to go to the Pac 10 and doesn’t want to go to the Big Ten. They’d like to take UT or OU with them to the SEC, but neither are interested.
If they don’t agree to go to the Pac 10 now, Kansas is taking their seat on the bus, KSU be damned. TAMU is playing a very dangerous game of chicken right now.
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josh,
i think if the SEC getting A&M, the going to 13 thing is moot.. especially if their next move is UNC.
I think if the SEC takes A&M without OU it shows they are getting serious about academics over football and a deep raid of the ACC looks more likely.
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UNC will NEVER go to the SEC. Their academic reputation is worth much more than they can offer them. Also, were would NC State, Duke and Wake be?
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Gopher is right. The academic reputation of the SEC makes leaving the ACC a non-starter for UNC, and in fact for most ACC schools. VT and Clemson might not mind.
On top of that, UNC cares a lot more about basketball than football. Sure, they’d get Kentucky in the SEC, but is that worth giving up the duels with Duke? The ACC is just better for basketball, so I can’t see them leave.
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Congrats to UNL!
Frank, after all these months , I have to ask : who is the baseball player in your avatar? Oscar Gamble?
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Why have a B10 conference championship? If the B10 can get UT/ND and stop at 14, why not simply push your scheduling back and have your last conference games coincide with the SEC/ACC/etc…conference championship games? Can you imagine this lineup to end the B10 season:
Noon OSU v. Michigan
3pm Penn St. v. Nebraska
7pm UT v. ND
The biggest problem with divisions is breaking up rivalries. Why not match up a weekend full of B10 rivalries versus all the other conference’s championship games? Who wouldn’t tune in to the the B10’s Big 6 triple header? Conference championships are quick hitter money grabs. With the $ amounts the B10 would surely be dealing with a year end rivalry weekend makes much more sense…both fiscally (long term) and from a conference cohesiveness standpoint.
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I think this will eventually be the direction. Have the BIG RIVALRY game as the last game of the year, first or second Saturday in December. Like having 7 conference championship games (OK maybe 4 + the also-rans).
Think like a conference exec…. everyone gets to play an extra game, 2 Big Ten teams could play for the NC, and we could make $10 million X 4 on advertising versus $20 million on a conference championship game that only involves two schools. Remember JoPa’s complaint that the Big Ten teams become invisible after Thanksgiving, this keeps them ALL around for another two weeks. Creatively mix in some Bye Weeks and you have added 3 Saturdays worth of revenue generating games to the Big Ten Network, end game.
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Entertaining and informative article by Dennis Dodds. Note that he estimated B12 might have had a $15 million/school contract, almost equal to SEC.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/13511924/the_age_of_the_superconference_is_here
ESPN also comments on the Huskers and I fully agree.
http://espn.go.com/blog/Big12post/_/id/13354/smart_choice_but_contradiction_for_huskers
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Counterpoints to what you fully agree with:
“Perlman responded to the ultimatum by firing off a few questions of his own to his fellow Big 12 chancellors and presidents.
After all, there were reports out that six other Big 12 schools were looking to go to the Pac-10.
OK, Perlman asked, what if Nebraska stayed and potential Big Ten target Missouri left? Would those six schools stay in the Big 12? Yes, was the answer.
OK, Perlman then asked, if Nebraska stayed and Colorado left for the Pac-10, would those six schools stay in the Big 12? Yes.
OK, how about if both Colorado and Missouri left? The answer: The six schools could not make a commitment that they would stay in the Big 12.
Strike one.
“I then asked what would be the nature of the commitment that they would expect from an institution in order to stay in the Big 12,” Perlman said. “And what they talked about was a public statement; unequivocal commitment to the Big 12 by the president and chancellor of the university.”
In response, Perlman said there’s only one way you can fully commit long term to a conference, and that is you assign the media rights to your athletic contests to the conference for the long term.
Perlman asked if the Big 12 members were willing to do that.
“The University of Texas made it clear they were not able to do that,” Perlman said.
Strike two.
Perlman said he then received a phone message on Wednesday from Big 12 Commissioner Dan Beebe in which it was articulated that a commitment was wanted from Nebraska through at least 2016.
“Neither Tom nor I thought that was a very long-term commitment to the Big 12, and we felt that our obligation to the University of Nebraska was to protect it from the vulnerability of being without a conference altogether,” Perlman said.
Strike three.”
More:
http://www.huskerextra.com/articles/2010/06/11/football/doc4c127efa8ecb6120679491.txt
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re: strike 3-His point was not that UNL made a bad decision-It was that they shouldn’t try to blame their decision on someone else. 6 years is an eternity to commit to a conference is this day and age.
re: strike 2-give me some of your revenues and I stay? Give me something I don’t have right now? That’s flat out ridiculous. Nothing wrong with B10 model, but to blame someone for not bribing them to stay?
re: strike 1-simply counter with I commit if either CU or Mizzou stay. Noone would argue that. CU & Mizzou have (had) most of the B12 population outside Texas. Point is that if UNL and Mizzou both committed that was a non-issue.
UNL made a decision that was best financially for their university. Pearlman shouldn’t get defensive about it.
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Six years is an eternity to commit? Well then pardon us for committing to a conference whose future isn’t all bound up in what’s best for Texas from year to year.
Yes, I understand Texas has all the media marbles and wants to keep them, they’ve made that abundantly clear. That doesn’t work for Nebraska, and quite possibly A&M. Negotiation is not the art of giving Texas everything they want.
On the third response, he’s simply countering the notion that Texas is committed if Nebraska stays. There were obviously other scenarios that also started the ball rolling, and it was time to get while the getting was good, and Nebraska was not, as so many pro-Texas posters here so transparently and fervently wished, left out in the cold.
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As a Husker fan, I can tell you 99% of us are thrilled to be in the Big 10. While it is regretful to leave a lot of history and past rivalries behind, one can’t help but get excited to visit all the schools and stadiums in the Big 10. One thing I have always appreciated about the Big 10 is the class shown by all of its programs on and off the field. I look forward to many years of enjoyment as a fan and seeing the Big 10 conference reach even greater heights as they continue to expand. I think most Big 10 people will be shocked to learn how much better UNL has gotten academically in the past 10 years if they really study the research dollars and US News and World Report rankings. Nebraska has actually bypassed Missouri by a decent margin on both fronts. Missouri fans don’t realize this, but the people who really focus on the academic side do. But enough bragging on that end (and yes, I realize that Nebraska is still currently on the bottom end of the current Big 10 schools), glad to be here and glad to see most of you Big 10 guys are glad we joined your party.
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http://wisn.com/sports/2387754/detail.html
Article talking about splitting conference, but interesting comment is something I haven’t seen anywhere else, that Delaney will pause for 12-18 months. That is consistent with the “no more B12 teamms” he told Beebe.
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In the comments I heard, he didn’t say 12-18 month pause, he said BT going back to 12-18 month timetable–and that was with qualifications.
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shroom,
off topic, but how would you feel if Self winds up at IU?
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I’ve always had kind of an innate feeling that he’s sleezy…but maybe I’m wrong on that. Has he ever been accused of anything serious?
I started out as a TC fan, but he’s had a BAD last 1 1/2 years. I’m afraid the recruits see him as a lightweight.
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shroom,
coming off Kelvin, I guess I am willing to give Crean an extra year or two to feel like he got a fair shake with the IU fanbase (see also Brooks at UK via their football program). I just do not want IU to get the revolving door policy that kept bama football in a funk for ages.
If Izzo bolts (a sad day for B 10 basketball) a move by IU to get Self could put the light back on IU in the void left by Izzo. As a fan, I am conflicted.
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shroom,
ps.. did you see Indiana beat Kentucky?
the boys won 100 – 97
the girls won 93 – 83
a sweep for Indiana!
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evening update from Northwestern guy:
There is an unanticipated and fiery power struggle within the Texas academic and athletic leadership over conference affiliation. Notre Dame, likewise, is positioning itself. The Big East is no longer sustainable for Notre Dame.
It comes down to the concessions the Big Ten is willing to make. Will the Big Ten schools allow the Big Ten to scale back to 7 games for certain schools, for all schools, or will the entire conference stay at 8 games? Thought is that if it involved BOTH Texas and ND, the conference will agree to it.
Big Ten believes Texas will not settle for the Pac 10, and that there is a major split within the administration about what is best for Texas. Unclear, at this point, which side will prevail.
Texas also must wait until the Big 12 completely dismantles, and wants to make sure as many former Big 12 members get homes. Pac 10 targeting non Big 12 members as well.
Texas is up in the air – there is real anger that the Big 10 broke up the Big 12 with some Texas decision makers. Other Texas decision makers were complicit all along.
followed by:
Also, the sense is that Nebraska may have came too soon for the rest of the conference. Admins on the phone with the schools to hang with the plan.
Nebraska complicating things with comments toward Texas, fueling the anti-Big Ten crowd in Austin. Emotional tension high in Austin meetings. Another phone call with conference presidents tonight.
That’s all I have for now.
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This guy has been wrong every step of the way – cant wait til Tuesday
Texas is gone
ND not coming
See you Tuesday!
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fine by me. no one wants to put up with your demented fanbase.
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Promise? You won’t be back until at least Tuesday? SWEET.
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Tuesday–at which time ND football will be another 72 hours closer to its inevitable BCS irrelevance.
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Never has so much be written by so many people about an “irrelevant” program.
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Didn’t mean to imply that ND is irrelevant, rather that if they choose to remain independent they will become irrelevant. Team 65 looking in on a 64 team mega-conference world.
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🙂
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On CU’s press conference:
http://www.cubbuffs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?&DB_LANG=ES_ES&DB_OEM_ID=600&atclid=204958872
B10 definitely got the better all around sports program. Rather amusing that CU goes on and on about skiing and cross-country.
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Frank-you really have been remarkably accurate and provided lots of good info considering how crazy this has all been. And certainly have been a lot more accurate than a lot of the professionals.
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I enjoy this blog, but remarkably accurate is a stretch. This blog has been nothing but ND & Texas for the past month. Now we have Nebraska in, Texas on its way to the PAC16 and ND firmly entrenched in its independence. This is not exactly how this blog has seem the outcome.
The ONLY strategy to get ND all along was to destroy the Big East, but the Big 10 chose not to play that card. ND is where it wants to be – only a total destruction of its safe harbor will change that
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He was accurate that UNL was in and Mizzou was out long before most others did. He was accurate that Texas was being approached before anything was public. It didn’t work quite the way Delany expected. Noone was especially accurate. Hasn’t come out yet how much ND was or wasn’t approached. And B10 isn’t necessarily done blowing up conferences.
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that’s sort of revisionist, since there was a lot of Mizzou pimping here for quite some time
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NDman –
Remarkably accurate as to the BigTen’s intentions, yes.
Are you arguing that the BigTen did not target ND, TX?
Because that is what FtT reported. And, it appears that he was “remarkably accurate,” while others are still (despite the Gee emails) reporting that the BigTen and Texas have not spoken.
Just because it didn’t (or hasn’t?) happened doesn’t mean that Frank was inaccurate about the ultimate goal.
Are you saying that Frank said that ND and TX were BigTen locks? He never said that.
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Gimme a break.
A lot of us were saying Nebraska would be #12 for months.
Yes we threw out ND/Texas scenarios. But it’s not like we were betting the farm on it.
Most of us thought Nebraska alone or Nebraska/Missouri/Rutgers was the most likely outcome…
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ND Man,
incorrect..
I was early on TX to Pac
I was early on ND to BE or G&C
I was early on for Nebraska
so far I am doing pretty good
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I think Nebraska to B10 is a good move, a classic win-win. That said, while FTT has always equivocated, prudently, on whether ND and/or Texas could be gotten, the angle he blew badly was Pac-10 getting Texas, et al. by agreeing to the TTU gambit. On that, he was 100% incorrect, and loudly proclaimed that the Pac-10 would NEVER agree to that because of the unanimous vote reqt.
So to that extent, if it comes to pass, as it likely will, give credit where it is due to the Pac-10. They hauled in the prize pig by going further than the B10 was willing to, and also got OU, which is Nebraska’s equal, in the process.
As an ND guy, at this point my only concern is the SEC and what it might end up doing to unravel the BE.
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NDx2,
I said earlier, the BE is safer than the ACC!
Big 12 – desired by P 16, B 16, and SEC 16
ACC – desired by B 16 and SEC 16
BE – desired by B 16 (and MAYBE 1 team only)
I point out that UC, UL, WVU, USF, Uconn have NO worry from the Big 10 expansion.
ND, Syracuse, Rutgers, and Pitt only have to worry that the Big 10 wants one of them.
Again, from a simple angle, the Big 10 has 4 slots left and they get a bigger bang in an ACC raid than a BE raid.
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off topic…
there is a story out there, I believe Joe Schad has it, that 5 schools have contacted USC early entree freshman Dillon Baxter. This would be a violation. the schools are Alabama (shocker), Florida, Fresno State, Oregon and Washington. Have no idea how accurate it is. USC apparently has filed a complaint with the Pac 10 office. They are also saying that Baxter has lost his phone but I’ve watched to many CSIs to think that will work.
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Anyways, I think Delany’s focus is on integrating Nebraska and figuring out what 3 teams best complement Notre Dame.
At this point, the “strategy” or “path” of expansion doesn’t matter as much. Most likely Notre Dame will be school #15 or 16.
Knowing that, what would #13-14 be? Probably something like Maryland/Va or Maryland/Rutgers.
But what if he went outside the box and went for something that in and of itself would be an expansion success? Yes, I am talking about VaTech.
UNC is like Texas; it’s not going to come without a huge part of its “kingdom” just as Texas went west.
But UNC won’t pick up and leave the ACC; it’ll just rebuild.
So, my guess for what would be an interesting scenario would be Maryland/Va/VaTech for 13-15. Note that academically VaTech is much like GaTech or any other strong school that doesn’t yet have AAU; it has the research chops to fit into the Big Ten easily…
Then you go to ND and offer an ultimatum. ND or Rutgers for #16.
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if Texas is out of the equation, and I do agree it seems headed that way but the fat lady hasn’t sung yet, then I would like some 3 from Maryland, Virginia, Rutgers or Georgia Tech. I would love to say Pitt but we know the footprint issues.
That is of course to try and get ND. ND is a great fit and I would love to have them but I don’t think it happens. For a significant portion of their vocal fan base they hate the Big Ten almost as much as they love independence. I think as much as the administration might want the Big Ten they will eventually opt for the ACC because it would be more acceptable to the fan base.
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Agree. I could see the Irish going to an ACC/Big East combo 16 school super-conference and be THE big dog. There, much like Texas is doing now, they will call the shots on how they want football scheduled…and the conference will bend over backwards to accomodate them. That won’t happen in the Big Ten.
At one time, I thought the Big Ten would come out of this with a huge power grab, but now I’d bet they won’t get anything better than Nebraska when the dust clears and we have four mega-leagues.
IF, and it’s still an if, that happens, Delany will look like a fool for tipping his hand and not being ready to move.
I really hope I’m wrong and that it will work out that the Big Ten winds up with Texas, ND or VT. Not much else out there to score the “hr” with, after that. Love the Nebraska get, but if that’s the last “hr” addition, Delany will not be looked upon as the genius he’s been described.
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I doubt it. ND would just remain independent if the Big Ten has passed it by.
I’ve brought the ACC up as a better fit, but ND wouldn’t really care to win a ACC-Big East championship. It wouldn’t mean anything for them.
I think ND either joins the Big Ten before it goes to 16 or remains an independent as the other remaining independents shall as well…
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I hope so. ND cements the NYC market in a way that Rutgers or Syracuse could never do. Not to mention the nationwide appeal of ND.
I still do not get the Rutgers infatuation. They are not even a blip on the sports radar in the NYC metro and never will be more than that. They do not deliver that market. Big Ten regional games on ABC are almost always the game in the NYC market as it is.
No program makes a dent in the NYC market other than ND.
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ND doesn’t care about a Big Ten championship either. 🙂
I still think ND is a better institutional fit with most potential BE-ACC mergers.
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See, my point is, why do we rate Ga Tech as higher than Va Tech?
Ga Tech is in Atlanta yes, but it doesn’t really move the dial in Georgia; Atlanta is an SEC city.
Combine Virginia/Va Tech and you have the D.C./Va markets locked down for when the top Big Ten brands come in.
I don’t see why we rate Ga Tech higher than Va Tech in this discussion.
Academically Ga Tech is a bit better than Va Tech, but Va Tech would still fit into the Big Ten (even without AAU).
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I didn’t realize that VT was not AAU. In that case, if the Big Ten was to bend the AAU rules for VT…they might as well have bent them and let in Oklahoma. Then they would’ve locked up Texas and likely A&M to go with Nebraska. Okie State could head off to the SEC or Pac 10.
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I think some on here are WAY too confined by the Big Ten footprint. The idea was to make the BTN a national entity. Those teams like Virginia and Syracuse would be a waste of a valuable slot.
With the Big Ten’s stability and riches they need to go for 4 Home Runs. Get creative. Look for vulnerable big name schools looking to gain academic respect, or who feel unappreciated in their current conference. Tennessee I think is a good example. I also like the idea of North Carolina (though that would be a longshot). I don’t want place holders. If the PAC16 works out, the
TX, AM, NEB, ND, TEX-TECH combo that was sooooo unthinkable to many on here will look like a full-house.
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“Home runs,” in this context, aren’t defined by football (a weird sentence, doncha think?). Academics, all-around athletics, market and research also play key roles.
That’s where Maryland and Rutgers deliver results for the Big Ten. They, plus Penn State, make you relevant in the populous, affluent NY-to-DC corridor.
Tennessee would have a lot going for it were it an AAU member, but it isn’t. I agree with North Carolina as a valuable property for academics, athletics and market size — but if you thought you had political problems in getting Texas into the Big Ten, UNC would present even more of a challenge. The only other NC school the conference would take would be Duke; you’d have to find a good home for NCSU (SEC?), and it might be difficult to orphan Wake.
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Well Delany threw everyone off with his demographics speech. He was concerned about slow growing states, population and academics.
So he adds Nebraska, in a low population, slow growing state with academics generally rated lower than the existing 11 schools.
So maybe he adds Miami. Excellent undergraduate academics and a great tradition of coaches.
With Miami in the B10, maybe there are new Woodys, Bos, etc. so the B10+1+1 gets better coaches. And considering that the other Miami draws 25k when they have a .500 season, the Oxford Miami might actually have better fan support!
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P10 4 looking more firm according to the Oregonian. Kansas is apparently going to be #5 if A&M can’t make a decision. http://blog.oregonlive.com/pac10/2010/06/reports_indicate_final_team_in.html
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Good find.
Excerpts:
…Only the potential final team in a “Pac-16,” remained in flux as Texas A&M considered its options. The Aggies may not have much time, however. Pac-10 commissioner Larry Scott was en route from Colorado to the states of Texas and Oklahoma with invitations in hand, a source familiar with the process confirmed.
If the Aggies cannot commit, the Pac-10 is prepared to invite Kansas and its great basketball Tradition, sources say…
…If the Aggies miscalculate they could be left high and dry like Missouri, which had hoped for a Big Ten bid.
Hmmm, and word tonight out of College Station is that the BOR has an emergency meeting this weekend.
But I guess the Oregonian is just another TU mouthpiece…
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No, that’s the smart thing to do.
FWIW, I’m 100% on board A&M to the Pac-10.
I don’t think it’s a good thing for either the Pac-10 or Big Ten for A&M to go to the SEC.
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I wonder what Texas Tech’s invite says.
We, the Pac 10 Conference, invite the University of Texas at Austin, and 4 friends to join our conference.
Will you be joining?
YES_____ NO _______
# of Guests ________
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With a handwritten note: “Enter through the kitchen in back. If anyone asks, you’re with the help.”
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I don’t understand why they have to hurry this thing up so much? Why isn’t it a good thing for all the Texas schools to listen to their options and have time to do due diligence on them? The Pac 10 will be there in July.
I think trying to leverage someone into a move is going to create a lot of resentment. Especially if they’re making threats or forcing the government to step in.
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Good question Gopher86.
Maybe everyone is worried about it all falling apart, so they are trying to tie it down.
UNL and B10 just did same rush.
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Fall apart how? The Pac 10 can’t wait a few weeks? What are they going to do; add Utah and BYU to spite Texas?
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I hope A&M goes SEC and Kansas can head west with the pack.
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DD,
as a basketball guy, KU vs UCLA has promise!
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The line of dialogue in this thread is severely lacking in appreciation. The Big Ten has achieved its immediate aims and we should applaud the wise decision Nebraska has made. Speculation on further expansion is not necessary.
Frank, as a U of I alum you should know that our Memorial Stadium is second to none (in the actual war memorial department), no matter how many spectators show up on a Saturdays.
I am perfectly satisfied with the single addition of the Huskers and realize that when they begin play in 2011 we will still have an eight game conference slate, with the strongly suggested potential for nine games in subsequent seasons.
Jim Delany, plus as others have mentioned DiNardo on the expansion special, believes that competitive balance of divsions is more important than strict geometry. I suggest a North/South split.
North: Minnesota, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Michigan, Michigan St & Ohio St
South: Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Purdue & Penn St.
This set-up is optimal for both football and basketball balance.
It would be awesome for the Huskers to open each season with the Hawkeyes and close with Joe-Pa’s Nittany Lions as both Nebraska and Penn St will have the simplest uniforms in all of college football.
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Love it.
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That is, as long as the PSU v OSU game is annual.
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As long as ND is out there, the Big Ten is going to 16. Maybe it won’t happen during this expansion round. But Delany will want it to happen before he goes back to ABC/ESPN.
I think at least 14 is a possibility before then. As I said, maybe not this year, but still…
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actually you don’t really need to split the conference for basketball. One Division for b-ball, and two for Football.
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I’m with you. It really doesn’t affect the B10 one way or another what the other conferences do, other than if they take schools that we have targeted for later expansion. But just because the Pac 10 goes to 16 schools doesn’t mean we have to.
We should only expand further if it makes sense to us, not because that’s what all the other kids are doing.
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I think everyone on this site will hate what I’m about to predict, as it might require all of us to get lives, but, assuming that the Pac-10 gets the five left on the table, including A&M, but:
I think we might be done.
Oh, the scraps of the Big 12 will still have to find homes. (I’ll predict KU-KSU to the MWC; Mizzou and ISU to the Big East; and Baylor to C-USA; but ultimately this doesn’t matter too much.)
The Big 10 grabbed the third best school but didn’t land Texas or Notre Dame, the two biggest fish. I’m not sure this is a big enough shift to cause the SEC to react. I’d stay at 12. (And I’m more bullish on the ultimate cohesiveness of the ACC than many on here.)
And if I’m the Big 10 . . . well, I’d stop as well, and wait a couple of years to see how well the first major 16-team conference fares. Why rush? If the Pac-16 prospers, Rutgers and Maryland and Syracuse and all of the other potential targets will still be out there. And if the Pac-16 suffers Big 12-like issues of successful integration, the Big 10 can take a big sigh of relief, thankful for dodging the bullet of rushing beyond 12 too quickly.
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I think you are probably right. And I think it’s the smart move on the part of the Big 10. I wish, somewhat selfishly for Colorado, that the P10 would add 1 more and stop as well. But I think that ship has sailed and the 5 are coming, almost certainly to include A&M.
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Agree 100%. Unless ND suddenly has a change of heart, the Big Ten might as well stop now and let the Pac 10 model be the 16 team guinea pig.
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One problem; the Pac 10 model with 2 separate 8 team divisions for football, would not be the Big 10 model(IMO). As has been discussed ad nauseum, four pods with a far more integrated conference, and homogenous universities, would define the Big 10. I’m not sure what the Pac 10(16)can prove. You also can’t use the WAC 16 as an example because it lacked money.
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@HH,
I appreciate your thoughts but I disagree. I still think, despite the public posturing, that the Big Ten will continue to expand, and the SEC will also.
I know that Bevo Chip Brown has been tweeting up definite answers about the Texas 4 and the Pac 10. I still think that Texas, Notre Dame, Rutgers, PLUS 1 (Missouri, Syracuse) are going to be added to the Big Ten. The major powers don’t want to shake up the landscape every summer for the next 3 years.
I think aTm, PLUS 1 are going to the SEC, The Plus 1 may be OU or someone else.
I am not sure about the PAC 10, but if I was them I’d take Utah, Colorado, and OSU to make 14.
I know the Notre Dame crazies will answer this with something along the lines of Notre Dame is firmly independent and there is no reason to change that. But the administators are all for a cash grab and the revenue is too much to pass up, especially when you already play half Big Ten teams.
A&M wants the SEC, and I think they (and possibly Oklahoma) want to grab this opportunity to break away from UT. UT will use that as political cover, which Notre Dame will use as political cover to make the move.
Linchpin right now is A&M – if they go SEC, that allows UT to say ‘we had their backs in the PAC 10 but they left us, so we are going Big Ten’.
ND and Texas want to be in the Big Ten but only together, Texas needs to shake it’s baggage first.
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Utah / Kansas / OSU to the Pac 10, Colorado has already gone.
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I hope you’re right about Texas. I’m dubious.
Regardless, I kind of hope A&M goes SEC, just for their own sake.
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Re Texas wants to be in Big 10 (Patrick)
Patrick you are a great poster, always interesting, but Texas is behaving in a very strange way for a school that wants to be in the Big 10 as you suggest.
The train (airplane) likely leaves the station on Tuesday so we will see if your prediction is correct.
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I think next week will be very interesting.
Is Texas behaving is a specific way to push aTm along or create pressure for them. There were all sorts of ‘leaks’ about Nebraska not having an invite and trying to break up the conference and having some deadline, all of which were a benifit to somebody.
I don’t know what will happen, politics and egos you know. I think Texas is trying to grease the Pac Ten for as many spots as it can for it’s buddies before they pull out. Maybe Texas needs a southern buddy to come Big Tenning with them (OU / aTm) so they aren’t the outcast…… or they just go west.
Next week will be awesome!
NDx2 below, if Texas goes west ND ain’t coming. But the posturing I would take with a grain of salt. It was only 48 hours ago we got any definite signals from Nebraska. When they have reached a deal in the background, the tone will change significantly.
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If Texas had opted for the B10, then I’d agree that ND would have been likely to go along. But Swarbrick’s comments to the Tribune today combined with the universal reports that UT, TTU, OU, and OSU are locks for the Pac-10 have convinced me that the decision has been made, and Texas is heading west while ND is standing pat.
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@NDx2
Can you honestly see the ND being independent much longer? I know that is what you desire, but it seems like the writing is slowly being written on the wall. I say this as a fan of ND not going to the Big Ten.
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I can.
As long as ND remains a team that the whole country (at least outside of the old Confederacy) will watch, we’ll maintain a presence on broadcast TV. As long as that remains, we’ll have the backing of the media who’s paying for all of this. We’ll also be the public face for all the non-AQ teams that don’t have the fanbase to force a change.
Well, that, I disagree with you all on the viability of these 16 team conferences.
Only the Big Ten has a network to monetize the extra games. Every other conference is just splitting the same sized pie different ways. Even this proposed PAC-16. Of course, what the PAC-16 really is is a PAC-8/neo-SWC alliance for TV purposes. As such, it may survive.
I don’t see the SEC and ACC schools taking pay-cuts so their conferences can have more schools to feed.
Until we have a 4conference 64 team block, ND has nothing to fear.
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K,
I have to agree with FLP as the SEC has little or no interest in the BE, the only predator for the BE is the Big 10, and the majority of the BE have no appeal to the Big 10. If the BE calls the Big 10 bluff, the Big 10 has no other threat (no Pac or sec threat) like the Big 12 had.
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I can too. The blog has focused almost exclusively on the “offensive” moves that the Big Ten could take to enhance the value of the BTN. After adding Nebraska, I think it is time to play some defense. I think that it is clear that the SEC could take several easy steps that will dilute the potential value of the BTN —
add Virginia Tech and Texas A&M. I am not saying that either will accept. But, since this board is essentially an exercise in scenario analysis — I ask what should be the Big Ten’s next step (assume ND is not joining)? Would you hold or take another school or two – and if so, who?
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rich2,
Maryland..
it is the best opening gambit for the last remaining 4 slots. You get the ACC foothold, and leave a “backdoor” gambit to ND without having to take multiple BE teams that you are not real excited about.
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Add Pitt/Rutgers
Add Rutgers/Syracuse
Add Maryland/Rutgers
Add Missouri/Rutgers
Pac 10 adds second BCS auto bid
Lou Holtz is even saying it. lol
It seems like it is inevitable.
Again… I root against ND as much as I can and do not like the cultural fit at all in the Big Ten… but it seems like it is heading that way.
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Making the assumptions (and nothing is for sure) that the P16 is about to form with or without aTm (but including UT, TT, OU, and OSU) and that the B10 stops for now with Neb, and the SEC/ACC stand pat – I wonder how the new Pac will lobby for the BCS spots.
It would be a fair assumption and not unrealistic to request/lobby for 2 automatics (not necessarily the winner of each division but two autos none the less) with a possible 3rd due to size of conference.
Play in a P16 wouldn’t start till 2012 – which coincidentally is the 1st year that the MWC could receive an AQ – if granted. So its not like they could just take the B12’s spot so to speak (maybe?).
How soon could Cotton be upgraded to a BCS game (I am not sure when the current contracts for the NC/BCS rotation is set to restart)?
On one hand, assuming that the B10 and SEC can see themselves moving to 16 – they may be inclined to approve (they probably feel pretty confident that they will continue to be 2 bid conferences anyway at 12 vs ACC/BE stealing one). Or do they just say no until they get there as well?
On a side note – even if things go quiet for a while as HH suggests – seeing how fast Neb/B10 and Boise St/MWC are moving from announcement to starting play….the SEC and B10 could wait an entire year and destroy the BE overnight to start play in 2012 with 16 teams as well.
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It is very likely the new conferences will begin play 2011. Although 2012 was originally the time-frame, I believe Nebraska and Big 10 announced they would begin 2011. I don’t see the Big 12 playing an extra year with only 11 teams. At the CU press conference today, Larry Scott said 2012 was the target but they were prepared to start 2011 if necessary.
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2011 would be a logistical nightmare for a P16. As I noted in a post above (or another thread – I am starting to lose track), the current Pac deal runs through 2011 season and can no way support 16 teams (much less the 10 it has now) and who know what happens to the current B12 contract money with the leftovers still there. Unless they can renegotiate something much quicker to start sooner or supplement the current deal from a nother network – I just don’t see how you can pay anyone for 2011.
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I have no idea how it would work, but I’m sure there would be a way to figure it out. Sounds like the Pac has been preparing for the scenario.
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2011 would be complicated, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s not that hard. Corporate mergers involving tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of employees, can more or less be in place within 15 months. (Yeah, I know, much greater resources, but still…) This’ll get done by 2011.
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I’m not sure it makes sense to sit by, let a new mega-conference develop a network, watch to see how it expands and performs. While, in the meantime, the SEC could do the same.
It’s sort of like saying Coke should see how Pepsi develops its market, how sales go, then be second into the stores.
The Big 10 has a headstart with the BTN. There is no sense losing that advantage waiting around to see what the other conferences do. Assuming the BT can find schools that “fit” and not rush poor choices, the BT should act, not react to what others might do. Develop your product and create your market now.
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Great analogy. I completely agree and today it sounded like Delany does too.
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Re all over or chapter one (Hopkins Horn)
Good post.
Big 10 made excellent add. Pac 10 greatly strengthened their conference.
Be interesting to see whether A&M joins Texas to Pac 10: I believe they will but time will soon tell.
However the Big 10 with its channel is more than a conference now: it is in the TV business and Nebraska does not fully address the inventory and demographic issues that motivated a Pac 16.
Based on the comments on this blog the Big 10 may next approach ACC schools. Many believe the SEC will as well.
The ACC may in spite of itself decide to see if it can explore a channel option as well and whether it might find a financial partner.
Some have said that’s not likely but it may come to pass if its schools decide they want to be in the ACC rather than the SEC or Big 10. Not so long ago Miami and FSU were powerhouse top tier football teams. Time will tell.
There has been some talk of the Big East schools reaching out to the Big 12 left behind schools. Not sure if that is realistic but that could impact the Big East in an interesting way as it relates to the BB schools.
So this may be chapter one.
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Smart thinking. I think the issue of the orphaned B12 schools might be around for a while, but someone is going to take Kansas and her conjoined sister. (I shudder to think of Kansas playing Boise in men’s basketball though. BSU lost by 26 to a Wyoming team that went 3-13 in the MWC last year. Potentially playing KU every year in the MWC? The horror. The horror.) The others may take a while to sort out.
But I agree on further expansion. What’s the rush? And unless the SEC could get a HR like Texas or OU, they’ve got no reason to expand either.
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That is not a stable solution. The Big Ten Network needs inventory in order to maximize its potential, and merely adding one school simply does not address that concern. The scenario you outline would also leave the Pac 10 as a very precarious grouping of school. It would only be a matter of time before UT started playing footsie with another league, if the Big 10 and SEC both stayed with 12. The only way the Pac 10 is stable is if both those leagues go to 16.
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I agree except that I don’t think the B10 is done. They haven’t done anything about their demographics issue, so I suspect Rutgers (average growth state, but enough additional people to offset demographic decline) is in and someone else. Delany is still working on ND.
Actually expansion with ND gets difficult. They are committed well into the future, so it may take 4-6 years for football. What do you do with #14 in the interim? Bring in a rotating MAC school as #13 until ND is ready? 13 really doesn’t work well at all.
I think it probably slows after B10 goes to 14. When B10 took PSU and SEC expanded it was several years until the SWC and B8 dissolved. The WAC dissolution aftershock was 3 years later and it was 6 more years until the ACC went to 12.
What would really be a dramatically different turn of events would be if UT decides the B12 is salvageable. They’ve probably already made the decision that it isn’t, but some TV exec might change their mind.
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We’ll have a better idea Tuesday.
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Seems to me the only play for Big 10 other than staying at 12 is to destroy the Big East in hopes of forcing ND into a conference. That likely means inviting 3 Big east teams (Rutgers, Pitt, Syracuse). 2 invites could crumble the Big East too, but less sure its a certainty. I think there is a good chance ‘Nova will go the Uconn route and upgrade it’s football program.
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RE: PBC’s latest updates.
See this makes perfect sense. And no matter what others say, I believe this is what is actually going on. I am 100% confident in that.
I respect some others that disagree as they have been with this all along. I just do not see how you do not take this credible info big time.
This guy has a good view of the whole thing, not just the b10 side, b12 side, or whatever side is being represented by different parts of UT.
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Just curious, but how and when did this Purple Cat guy become credible? I’m not asking out of any animosity. I just keep reading about this guy’s updates on the whole situation and I was wondering where he came from and how he earned his reputation on here? I actually hope he is correct and that somehow Texas winds up in the Big Ten, but a more likely ending is Texas goes to the Pac 10…as everyone else in the universe is reporting, and the Cat guy comes back with a final update saying that Texas was oh so close to joining the Big Ten, but just couldn’t pull the trigger at the last second.
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Weirdly enough, he earned his rep when another blog verified that Delaney got cheesed about a leak he alone posted. The one about Tex and ND getting only 7 Conference games and a guaranteed game against each other that he heard from one of his buddies who works @ BTHQ.
I still am not buying any of it, but I do think he’s getting “Official Big Ten leaks” now.
For whatever that’s worth.
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You know, I’ve thought about it some more, and now I think that to get ND, the Big10 has to destroy a conference, but that conference is the ACC, not the Big East. ND’s never going to join the SEC, and while the Pac16 may be attractive in theory, in practice, that’s a helluva long way to fly all your Olympic sports athletes for no financial gain. However, so long as the ACC is still around as a (somewhat) “Big 4” conference, ND still has the ACC as an option to play off against the Big10. Conspire with the SEC to split up Maryland, Virginia, & VTech, though, and the ACC isn’t going to be a major conference any more. The BE already isn’t, so in that scenario, ND is looking at the world where 3 mega-conferences (Big10, SEC, & Pac16) dominate the BCS while ND, as an independent, has no political allies.
If the Big10 can peel off Maryland & Virginia, ND will come.
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richard,
this was my argument months ago.. it made the most sense then, it still makes the most sense.. the predator vs prey thing means you strike close first. The BE is no threat to the pac 16 or SEC 16 model.
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Rutgers and Maryland will be in the Big 10. Coming soon……….
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Unless it’s to get ND in the fold, what’s the point?
There more I think about it, Delany looks like he got caught flat-footed by Larry Scott. When he floated the rumors about expanding, I’m sure he realized the SEC was not looking, or needing, to make any moves. I’m sure he realized the ACC and Big East had no juice to make any major moves at this time.
The Big Ten’s farting around all Winter and Spring, and especially how quickly they had to speed up their timetable last week, makes it appear that they thought they were the only league that could land the big fish, so they could take their time.
Larry Scott and the Pac 10 leaving a soft landing, and leverage, for Texas, clearly undercut Delany.
Nobody can tell me that adding Nebraska and stopping now was the ultimate plan, even if they intended further expansion. They thought they had all the leverage with Texas, and maybe were planning to use that to entice ND, but Larry Scott bit them on the butt and has Delany and Co. befuddled.
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What evidence is there though that Texas wouldn’t have gone to the Pac-10 and SEC and asked for offers?
And that the Pac-10 realizing that it only has Texas as the sole option to 16 wouldn’t make the same offer?
I mean yes, Texas might be in the Big Ten if the Big Ten had expanded before Larry Scott became Commissioner of the Pac-10.
But, you can’t really fault Delany in how it went down.
Texas would never take a Big Ten offer without doing due diligence as to whether it was the best offer (i.e. versus Pac-10/SEC).
Any school with the options of a Texas would have asked for offers before it put itself into play…
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Why the need for a 12-18 month time table AFTER you announce to the world you’re looking to expand? You can’t mean that they had no idea of the merits of the target schools, all the legal obstacles, all the money numbers crunched…back when they first made the public announcement?
Just the hurried way they were forced to react, AFTER Larry Scott jumped, shows they were caught by surprise.
Add in the emails from the Ohio State president warning that the leverage they had could be gone if they don’t act soon…and the Big Ten looks amateurish.
Maybe the long process was not Delany’s fault or choice, but the conference looks like it was caught napping.
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Wouldn’t have mattered. If the Big10 had acted sooner, the Pac10 would just have gotten their offer out to Texas faster. Power players like Texas just don’t leave options out on the table just because someone offers them first.
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point to ponder..
the folks that have been with Frank for awhile know one thing. Nebraska, was not one of the 5 that got this whole ball rolling in the first place (at least not was out there for public consumption). I see 2 options from this….
a) delany wants disinformation
b) delany has been caught off guard
comments?
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Disinformation. Nebraska was fairly obviously in the top 3 to anyone who looked even a bit at the economics (and I’d said so early on).
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“Disinformation. Nebraska was fairly obviously in the top 3 to anyone who looked even a bit at the economics (and I’d said so early on).”
Perhaps, but I don’t think so. I think Delany started with the idea that threatening to take Mizzou’s markets from the Big 12 is what would destabilize it. Instead at some point early in the process he must have realized threatening the loss of one of the 4 votes keeping unequal tv revenue sharing alive in the Big 12 was the best way to get UT into the league.
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I agree that the plan is not to stop and I do not see it happening, though I do not think that “The Big Ten’s farting around” could have changed anything. Bottom line is that academic limitations would never allow the Texas “baggage” to share in the wealth of the CIC. If they do not end up with UT, I do not think it was not because JD was sitting around. The Pac 10 threw their academic integrity to the curb for the football dollar. The Big Ten will not.
I am a Big Ten fan first and a Texas fan second (and live in Phoenix). SO I am completely torn on the whole thing. I would love to have access in to UT in Tempe, but still love the Big Ten.
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I am not impressed by Larry one bit yet. Even if he lands TX, Texas needs to bring her ugly step-sister along. Thus forming a TX block to control the conference, like they did to the Big 8/12.
the Big Ten wants TX only, they may take aTm, to make a deal.
I am proud that Jim Delany would not sell out to TX.
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Bringing along Oklahoma, Texas A&M and Colorado is not much of a compromise. I’ll concede that Tech and Okie State are reaches.
Unless Texas anticipated a scenario where they could bring their buddies along for the ride, which I do not believe they could’ve known that the Pac 10 would do this, you would think it would’ve been a no-brainer to get Texas and Texas A&M into the Big Ten back in the Winter. There was plenty of time to work out the “Tech” problem back then.
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Unless they’re dim down there, they would have anticipated exactly that scenario. Look, when you have power like Texas, you try to get the best deal you can; you don’t sign on the dotted line just because a conference negotiates with you more or presses you.
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Also, adding a bunch of Central Time Zone schools will NOT help the Pac 10 with their biggest problem. Getting TV time on the east coast.
ABC/ESPN will air the “Pac 16 East” and the “Pac 16 Weast” well, they will get aired as often as they are now!
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I just do not see this being a good marriage.
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Pacific tz side of the house just needs to do what they need to do for exposure – which means Thurs night games. Have the stage to yourself during the week in Thurs Pac game of the week kind of deal. You break away from traditional Sat games (which would suck) but if you tell me my choices are to host/play in a Thurs night game 2 weeks a year that will give me nat’l exposure vs keeping it Sat and being buried behind 3 other games on the PTN….I’d play on Thurs.
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why expand into an arranged marriage if playing on Thursday would solve it?
PTN would make money, but it does nothing for national exposer that would influence Polls, Opinion, and national recruiting.
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So UT and its gang are going to the P16 if you believe OrangeBloods or they are going with ND to the B10 if you believe PBC w/ aTm either bullied into UT’s gang or jumping to the SEC…..
Quite a few comments I’ve seen questioning the long term viability of the Pac with a divided conference as is anticipated – and all fair to ask. I think the one thing that keeps getting overlooked when those comments are made is a PTN. IF this P16 deal goes through I truely belive that a PTN is on the horizon. IF they provide wach member university as an equal partner in the network then I believe that there will be a heavy incentive to keep the conference together and successful. The # of households that the states of CA and TX bring + Seattle, Portland, Phoenix, Denver, Ok Cty, and SLC/KC (if aTm bolts and deal stays in place) has to be fairly impressive/staggering. Income generated from that venture within a few years would have to more than worthwhile to keep together.
A new nat’l TV contract haul should be impressive as well – considering A) the footprint of the conference and B) what the ACC just got. This figure will absolutely be distributed unevenly (its just the awy the Pac has always done it and the way TX likes it). This favors your power schools that are getting the nat’l play in increased $$ over lesser conference mates (not to be condecending but Wazzu just doesn’t measure up to most), the greater exposure, and perceived (or real) power within. Lesser mates won’t bitch too much (unless MO gets in) because they have the PTN revenue to fall back on in addition to whatever cut of the nat’l $$ they get – and that dollar amount will probably be head and shoulders above what they are currently receiving.
Granted – UT can bolt for the B10 on Tuesday and make this moot….but still, just thought I’d throw out my 2 cents..
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mental note – proofreading is your friend
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Proofreading? Bah, we don’t need no stinking proofreaders. I always figured editors just gummed up the works, like Joyce, or Hemingway, or Faulkner.
…wait, maybe bad examples…
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Had an odd thought, say UT feels lonely coming to the Big Ten without it’s little brother that may be off to the SEC and seems very opposed to the Big Ten.
They WANT to play with Notre Dame and join the CIC and share in the Big Ten Money Pile (BTMP), but there isn’t anyone to travel with or bridge the gap.
Could the Big Ten “hold it’s nose” and accept Texas’s other major tag along, Oklahoma?
Great sports, limited acedemics. Big revenue generator, OU athletics made about $400,000 more than Notre Dame last report. R & D budget is small, about 1/2 of Nebraska or Rutgers but stll double Notre Dame’s. Major state school.
If they came as a package, both great athletic programs but Texas research carrying OU’s limited budget, would the Big Ten agree?
Total wild thought, nothing I have heard or seen.
But say the 5 additions are UNL, UT, ND, OU, and Rutgers / Missouri. That’d balance your eastern and western divisions!
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I think it’s the only viable compromise for the Big10 (and was hinted at before). TTech offers no positive attributes by itself. At least with OU, you can say to yourself that you are getting a football powerhouse & can build the best athletic conference in the country (and they’re a state flagship, so maybe they can become respectable academically some day).
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Exactly. Why not help OU mature as a research institution? Maybe even guide them into the AAU, but hold them off from full CIC membership until they meet certain criteria?
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personally, I think hell would have to freeze over if the Big Ten let OU academic standards in.
I am not complete sold on bringing in all the National Powers Houses. ND, UT, UNL, OU, and maybe aTm.
There needs to be some dead weight added to the conference. Somebody has to lose.
So either Dead Weight will be created or someone will leave. Long-term stability will be an issue
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There is plenty of football dead wood in the Big Ten now. No need to add more. Yes, you don’t want to make it unbearably tough…but adding two or three heavyweights (Nebraska is one of them) would really help the league’s football.
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yes adding two or three would be great with Missouri/Rutgers/etc.
I don’t want B10 like Iowa and Wisky become that Dead Wood.
Not to mention, I like it when Northwestern, Purdue, and State are able to build a good team from time to time.
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Thank you Brutus Buckeye.
I said this yesterday and I’m going to repeat it.
The entire perception of the SEC right now is driven by the strength of Florida/Alabama/LSU and mostly their top 6 teams.
If the Big Ten had Michigan going at full strength along with the rest and now Nebraska, it would be a match.
Only having Ohio State and Penn State going as the national brands along with Iowa and Wisconsin which are the top brands after isn’t as strong as having most or all of the national brands firing on all cylinders.
I still think the Big Ten needs to lock onto the most fertile recruiting grounds possible in the future.
That means we need to focus like a laser on Maryland/Va as well as NJ. Planting flags in those states and having Nebraska/Ohio State/Penn State/Michigan playing in those states will pay off dividends in the future.
Yes, California, Texas, and Florida are the three best states in terms of recruiting, but the Big Ten can probably match it with a move into the the Maryland/Va area buttressed by NJ.
The only other national brand that the Big Ten has to wait for is Notre Dame of course…
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If the Big Ten had Michigan going at full strength along with the rest and now Nebraska, it would be a match.
Yes. The worst thing to do would be to make long-term decisions based on the college football world of 2010.
We know everything is cyclical. Michigan will be back. The ACC will finally get its much-anticipated act together. (I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this current run of SEC dominance started right after a five-year period in which six current schools of the ACC made the championship game six times in five years.) USC could be toast for a while.
Don’t make a decision based on matching the SEC in football in 2011.
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Nope. No way.
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The whole P10+Texas&Posse thing will be a disaster for everyone involved. Near term everyone will play nice until the TV contract is place next year. But after that?
Texas couldn’t hold the B12 together; so now they try to conquer the West Coast to prove the B12 issues weren’t their fault. But if they couldn’t get NU (or poor Missouri) on board with whatever program they had for the B12, they aren’t going very far with USC and UCLA.
As far a ND, it does sound like they are wearing out their welcome in the Big East. Given the changing college landscape, independence seems like a sure way to a mention in the college football history wiki on the same line as the Service Academies and Ivy League.
Both UT and ND need to recognize that being an equal part in a union is better than being the shark in pool of guppies. The state of Texas was able to figure that out. But since neither seems ready for that, I really hope Delany’s chess moves don’t force a situation where either is cornered into the B10 and we have to deal with their embittered whining for decades.
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I’ve been pretty harsh on Delany and the Big Ten. Maybe too harsh. I have no inside info, and I have no idea how this will all end, or what the Big Ten’s end goal is, so I’m only speculating (and venting).
Two things bother me, however.
Why go public so early with an announcement that you are looking to expand? What was to be gained by that? They just heightened expectations and almost made it necessary to make a huge splash. Yes, even bigger than adding NU. Once again, why the need to go public so early?
Also, how could they possibly have allowed themselves to get caught so flat-footed that they publicly had to go into scramble mode this past week?
No matter what they did intend, and may do, they really do look amateurish at this time.
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Public announcement or not, Pac 10 TV deal was up next spring… they were always the threat to go first.
Better question is how Pac 10 analysis was done so quickly for these teams where the Big 10 took some time. Maybe it wasn’t that long???
I think the Big Ten time line is there to get ND. It takes time to destabilize several conferences and get teams moving. lol
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If their goal is to destroy a few conferences just to one day add ND, that would be counter to the integrity for which the Big Ten has always prided itself.
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Welcome to the real world, kid. Once you realize that money & self-interest drive 99% of what goes on in the world, you’ll have a better understanding of how the world works.
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Thanks, Dad. If the Big Ten was that willing to sell out, they would simply swallow it and take OU and Tech to get Texas and A&M. So, though you are correct about the motivations of most of the world…the Big Ten must not be chasing every last dollar, or we would’ve been welcoming the Horns, Huskers and Sooners.
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richard,
I am am no kid, cjb56 echoes what I have felt from the beginning. The B 10 for my life has been special, I for one am glad cjb56 makes the point. Well said!
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Nah, TTech would affect the academic brand a fair amount (which does eventually translate in to dollars), and offer no positive attributes by themselves. OU is just as negative academically, but at least provides a boost athletically. I guess you can call it integrity, but it’s integrity aligned with self-interest. Self-interests of all the parties involves is still what’s driving everything in this game.
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1. You get schools to start moving. Would Nebraska have joined the Big10 if the Big10 had just approached them and said “hey, like to join?”. That’s even more the case for the 2 big fish. Approach ND and say “wanna join?”, and you’d get rejected in 10 seconds flat. Same with Texas. Of course, there are risks, but you don’t get to the good apples buried beneath the bad apples without upsetting the applecart. (‘Course, someone could come and steal the good apples, but do nothing, and you have no shot at the good apples anyway).
2. Everybody was in scamble mode this week.
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#1 Incompetence. He thought somehow announcing an expansion plan would relieve public relations problems. There’s a reason business acquisitions are confidential. The longer others know about it (P10, SEC, TT, Baylor), the longer they have to mess it up (Mizzou’s plans didn’t go too well-UNL got their spot).
#2 Publicity. He wanted the publicity. He was very successful at that.
#3 ND. Not just getting them, but getting them to re-arrange their schedules. As of yet, he hasn’t been successful there.
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This guy explains the gameplan: http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_college/2010/02/radical-conference-realignment-part-iii-how-to-land-the-big-fish.html
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Thanks for the late night discussion. It’s all good. The sun will come up tomorrow, even without Texas or ND in the Big Ten (haha). Welcome to the Huskers!
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Morning folks! and welcome to the Huskers!
After a night of sleep dreaming of Big Red and JoePa I am going back to chess and the following setup.
with nebraska, the Big 10 and SEC are both now at 12.
Then I ponder the following….
a) Texas and others make the Pac 16 a reality
b) A&M breaks away and finds a new home in the SEC
Big 10 is now at 12, and the SEC is at 13 (A&M appears a wise choice for one of its remaining slots). ND is not worried (ie does not feel the need to join the Big 10) and Texas is now in the Pac 16.
What is Delany’s next move in this scenario?
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I am still pondering why OU has been so absent in all of this. Aggies are trying to influence Texas, but they are all alone. Where is OU???
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Ever since my wife (Husker alum) and I married in 2001 my greatest hope was that Nebraska would join the Big Ten. We went to the Nebraska-Penn State games in 2002 and 2003 and they were awesome. All that did was make me want to see Penn State and Nebraska play more often. I was really crushed when I found out that UNL cancelled their OOC games in 2014/2015 or thereabouts with Penn State.
Yesterday was like Christmas morning and winning the lottery all rolled into one. My wife and I watched the “Expansion Special” on the BTN and I have to admit feeling tingly all over several times. This is just awesome and I am thoroughly thrilled. Jim Delany, Harvey Perlman, and Tom Osborne are my heroes of the day and they should all be very proud to have made the best decision possible.
Now the only thing to hope for is that Mr. Spanier lobbies heavily for PSU and Nebraska to be designated yearly rivals. Certainly Nebraska’s biggest rival should be Iowa, and the Huskers have history with Michigan, Ohio State, and Wisconsin too. But as the east-west “bookends” of the Big Ten, Penn State – Nebraska is something special.
Let the games begin!
And of course, welcome to the Huskers, who have made the right move. My wife and I coulda told ya, Penn State and Nebraska being together is just the right thing – as Delany said, “a great fit.”
“There is no school like Nebraska
They’re coming to the Big Ten
We’ll meet ‘em and greet ‘em
And hopefully beat ‘em
But we’ll all get rich in the end!”
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It does seem like the most excited people here went to Penn State. Maybe it isn’t so necessary to have another eastern neighbor in conference.
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add
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Frank,
today should be 1,000,000 +
congrats in advance if I forget later!
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Frank,
looks like 1,000,000 will hit around noon EST!
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BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!!
we just crossed 1,000,000!
congrats Frank.
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What does anyone make of ND / Army in NY being off?
I think a viable play could be ND and BC together. The schools like each other, BC has a pretty good following and it would mean that ND is not an island. I prefer BC over Syr or Rut anyway.
I get Rut is the right kind of school, but they are so horrible athletically, I think it is a non-starter. They make Indiana football and Nebraska basketball look stellar.
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Guessing/hoping it’s because that would be the second neutral site game on the east coast for ND in ’13 (along with UCONN @ Foxboro, I think). I think ND would prefer it as a home game.
Also I don’t know how well the ND and BC brass get along in private. Remember how BC left the Big East hanging as well as the C.S.C.-S.J. rivalry.
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Yeah, but BC sticks out of the ACC like a giant sore toe.
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Which is not ND’s problem. =)
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My thinking on the ACC, and expansion
The use of “expansion” is misleading as it suggests a growing universe. This is NOT the case as in the end it is a zero sum game. I think “realignment” is actually what we need to tattoo on our collective brains.
If I am wrong, feel free to state your case, but if I am right this is how we will look at “realignment” going forward. It is either / or in what is more plausible.
REALIGNMENT PLANK #1
the ACC will raid the Big 10 / SEC
OR
the ACC will BE raided by the Big 10 / SEC
REALIGNMENT PLANK #2
the Big 12 will get back to 12
OR
the Pac 10 will become the first 16 in the BIG 3 (pac,b10,sec)
REALIGNMENT PLANK #3
The BTN will not be challenged
OR
The Pac 16 / sec 16 will happen to level the playing field (PTN,SN)
feel free to add logical OR statements, I know we have many lawyers here but I can not be the only computer geek here.
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#1 – B
#2 – B
#3 – B (Pac 10 only)
%Program: FranktheTank_Blog
for 6 – 12 months
Rehash rumors
Poor over pod systems
Argue USN&WR Rankings
Downplay basketball
Discuss market penetration
end
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gopher,
after end
core dump
🙂
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Presumably you mean XOR…
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Delany says he’s 2/3s of the way through the Big Ten’s preferred process of analysis by investment bankers. The irony is unavoidable that we are choosing to be slow and plodding instead of going after the quick strike (as the Pac-10 has). At this point, one has to think something big is in the offering. It is clear that ND is not going to be moved by anything other than ‘seismic events’, which at this case probably isn’t happening anytime soon unless a rabbit is pulled out of the hat on Tuesday.
Guess it’s time to take Delany at his word about the process, focus on and enjoy the new affiliation with UNL, and watch the rest of this unfold. I refuse to believe this was meant to be a game in which we only hit one home run.
Frank, thanks and congratulations for the ride and your success in this. Let’s recharge and get ready for what’s next.
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disagree.
I think its pretty clear there are two levels to Big Ten analysis. The whole preferred process of investment bankers is for the second rank of candidates. Analyzing the economics of Rutgers vs Maryland and those sort of tradeoffs. The first rank of candidates are the no brainers. Did anyone need to do analysis to figure out that Texas, Notre Dame and Nebraska were prime candidates. The only thing to do was establish contact and try to strike when the opportunity arose. Which is exactly what they are doing. The investbent bankers are figuring out if Syracuse adds anything or Georgia Tech is viable.
its far from over although it likely will come off the past week’s furious boil.
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From the bleacher report….
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/404977-will-college-football-expansion-inevitably-bring-down-the-ncaa#page/5
NOTE: text at bottom reads..
“Two former weak conferences make one big weak conference.”
My original argument holds, as what schools would rather sit at the grown up table with the BIG 3 (Big 16, Pac 16, sec 16) than stay at the kids table (ACC 16)? Maryland, UNC, UVA, Va Tech et al could make the move – Duke, Wake, etc may not have that ability. The Pac 16 will have NO seats available, and the Big 16 and sec 16 ONLY have 4 seats left each.
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We live in interesting times. A couple thoughts…
First, I have an issue with the “Big Ten got rolled by the Pac 10” argument. To get rolled means you were outmaneuvered over something you both wanted and could get. It is increasingly clear that the Big Ten, while wanting Texas, was not willing to take the extra baggage, while the Pac 10 was. The idea that Texas would have jumped at a BT offer if it came first (how do we know it didn’t) is ridiculous. These people are not morons. They would have looked at all the scenarios, and one of those is that the Pac 10 is clearly the most desperate conference. They need to break out of the Pacific Time Zone ghetto and the only way to do that in any meaningful sense is by adding Texas. Hence, they are willing to pay the price academically by accepting Tech, OU, OSU, maybe even Baylor. They are also apparently willing to risk becoming the Big 12, Part Deux, a conference of convenience that eventually succumbs to its various unstable parts. Texas has already shown that it has difficulty playing nicely with others, and now you’re bringing them into your conference along with a ready-made voting bloc.
Also, my sense is that while the BT would have loved to get TX on its terms (alone or at most with TAMU), seeing them going to the Pac 10 offers a couple of opportunities. First, it advances the “the superconferences are coming!” argument the BT needs to spook the Irish into conference affiliation, because you really can’t have a credible superconferences-are-taking-over-the-world scenario unless the Pac 10 is one of them, and for the Pac 10 to be a scary superconference, they need to have TX.
Second, I go back to a post I made a few days ago. I think the BT may prefer a super Pac 16 with its own PTN that can be packaged with the BTN by co-partner Fox and sold coast to coast. That’s the only real way to get the BTN to the huge West Coast market, since you’re not going to add West Coast schools in any plausible expansion scenario. So the answer is an alliance with the conference you already have had a strong relationship with for decades. Between the BT and P16, you have a footprint from the Pacific to the Atlantic if the BT adds some East Coast schools and even Notre Dame.
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@mikebuz
Bravo! Your first paragraph (to me) says it all. The B10 clearly is operating at a higher level (that is, in accordance with its academic principles) than some have credited. Obviously UT or UT/A&M would be great “gets” but not if the price tag (TTech, OU) is too high. That the Pac 10 is willing to pay that price, and I think time will demonstrate that it is a very high price indeed, doesn’t mean the B10 has been slow or outmaneuvered. The announcement of a
12-18 month timetable reminds me of how universities handle capital campaigns. When a school “initiates” a $500 million campaign it means they have already raised 1/3-1/2 of it silently and in private. This is done so that the public can be reached. Maybe Delaney was operating under this principle also.
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public GOAL …. argghhh
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P10 does not have a CIC. Therefore, TT/OSU are acceptable. P10 already has WSU and ASU. And TT and OSU do have some money behind them for improvements. Athletically they are fine. OK. St. may have more national championships (primarily golf and wrestling) than anyone in the B10, certainly more than most schools.
And if the P10 offer wasn’t there, Texas may have been able to get rid of its Tech problem. Delany was supposedly very unhappy about having to rush his timetable. No question, Delany got trumped and his slow process resulted in his plans getting disrupted. He was very successful at disrupting the B12 if that was in his plans, but that also led to more unpreditability.
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Plus allowing the PAC to get to 16 with quality teams keeps my dream alive of a coordinated cross-scheduling agreement between the P16/B16 either as a challenge format or an annual regular “rivalry” game. Though now that I think about it Nebraska would likely be paired with Oklahoma rather than Colorado.
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Is this a good solution to the problems associated with divisions and pods? I don’t know if this has been mentioned before, so here goes.
It makes little sense to add a twelfth school only to permanently split the conference in half, so here’s an alternative.
Rank performance over the past two years and make two balanced groups for two years so that each plays a home game. Then, schedule the inter-group play according to criteria such as priority of rivalry, geography, or amount of time since last meeting.
I could write a very lengthy post on this, but instead I’ll keep this as short and simple as possible. Taking an example from 08/09, this is the overall two-year rankings based on conference play. Please excuse me if any of my numbers are wrong.
1-Ohio State (14-2)
2-Penn State (13-3)
3-Iowa (11-5)
4-Nebraska (B12) (11-5)
5-Northwestern (10-6)
6-Michigan State(10-6)
7-Wisconsin (8-8)
8-Purdue (6-10)
9-Minnesota (6-10)
10-Illinois (5-11)
11-Michigan (3-13)
12-Indiana (2-14)
Now, start splitting. One group gets 1,4,5,8,9,12. The other gets 2,3,6,7,10,11. This would easily work with 14 or 16 as well.
When the two years are done, everything is shuffled again according to whatever the model is for ranking. Obviously, the model itself can be adjusted if necessary. This eliminates any perceived long-term unfairness concerning strength of division, plus it should encourage a better overall conference cohesion.
Using the 08/09 example again, here is how the hypothetical 2010/11 grouping would be established:
1-Ohio State (14-2)
4-Nebraska (11-5)
5-Northwestern (10-6)
8-Purdue (6-10)
9-Minnesota (6-10)
12-Indiana (2-14)
2-Penn State (13-3)
3-Iowa (11-5)
6-Michigan State (10-6)
7-Wisconsin (8-8)
10-Illinois (5-11)
11-Michigan (3-13)
Rivalries, geography, time since last meeting, strength of non-group schedule, and other items can all be factored into the model.
So, how do the groups get named? That’s easy. They get named by the two that most recently played in the Rose Bowl, provided that you keep them in different groups. Even the group names would change over time.
All things considered, this seems like an equitable system. Your thoughts?
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Things change in two years, sometimes even one. Teams go up, teams go down. It’s really hard to engineer the results you think you expect. Just ask the ACC, which has hoping for a FSU-Miami championship game and hasn’t managed it yet.
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This model does not attempt to engineer results or plan for the future. It takes a two-year survey and creates groups and schedules for only two years at a time. If a team goes into the crapper, this system reacts quickly enough to avoid a B12 situation.
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…should read “plan for the distant future.”
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I think Delany will be smart enough to split up Michigan/OSU and then give them a guaranteed game versus one another.
He doesn’t want a potential Big 12 North situation breaking out if Iowa or Wisconsin ever have down years.
So I tend to agree with your post…
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I don’t like the idea of Michigan/Ohio St. playing the last game of the season and then possibly playing again the next week. Michigan/Ohio St. need to be in the same division.
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Here is a sporting news realignment for 2012
http://www.sportingnews.com/college-football/article/2010-06-10/what-bcs-conferences-might-look-2012
In this situation, football goes to the ACC to die. If football drives revenues some smart folks in the ACC must see the writing on the wall. I say make a bold first strike for Maryland while things are still fluid.
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Since the Big 10 stuff appears to be slowing down now that UNL has joined, I figured I’d relay some of the rumors that I’ve seen on one of the Bama pay site forums. There has to be a 9 vote majority to accept a new member. According to the rumors, Slive’s initial plan was to offer aTm and FSU (which had apparently contacted Slive on their own when the expansion talk started) and then wait until the Big 10’s next set of moves before going to 16 since we probably wouldn’t be competing with them for very many of our remaining targets.
That plan has hit unexpected resistance from 3 schools. UF was expected to put up some resistance, but UGA and Bama have both said that they would not vote for FSU because of recruiting reasons. Tenn and LSU are now backing Slive and trying to get the other schools to fall in line to get to 9 votes. Apparently they have 7 so far.
The 3 schools that oppose FSU are trying to push Slive go after UNC, VT, and maybe Virg and Duke if they have to be paired with the other two. This vote may come down to South Carolina since they appear to have interest both for and against FSU coming.
Now again, this is just a rumor that I picked up on a pay site forum, so take it with a grain of salt, but I figured I’d share it.
Alan, I’m not sure if you’re a member of an LSU site, but if you are, are you hearing similar rumors or any other rumors coming from the LSU camp?
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interesting.
fwiw I wonder if Va Tech wouldn’t be a good replacement for FSU to pair with TAMU. as to UNC and Duke I’ve seen those names mentioned for the Big Ten as possible targets and I just don’t see how either could be pried from the middle of the ACC solar system without the complete dissolution of the ACC around them. I would think they would be as core as Michigan and Ohio State in the Big Ten.
has anyone clarified the reasons those three would vote against FSU? is it for just basic competitive recruiting advantage on the SEC stage or is FSU doing questionable things?
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For me, Duke, UNC and/or Virginia joining the SEC would be almost as devastating a development as ND joining the Big Ten. Just my opinion.
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bama,
thanks….
if this is true we now know 2 things
a) FSU could bolt
b) UNC is a SEC target
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if the SEC gets UNC in play the Big Ten will definitely make a play
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There is no way in hell that UNC would ever go to the SEC.
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yea but we’re just spinning hypotheticals
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There is one factor that maight play into the SEC’s favor. Supposedly UNC’s athletic department seems to be in a financial bind (although how that could be accurate with their basketball program, I don’t know). Now I don’t know if that will be the case once the new ACC tv contract kicks in. Plus the SEC offers stability that the ACC doesn’t right now. If the SEC picks off FSU, Clemson, and VT or GT, those are the best football schools in the ACC and would cause some unstability in that conference, especially if the Big 10 went after Maryland and Virginia.
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yes Bamatab losing those schools would destabilize the ACC. and if the SEC takes a big bite out of the ACC the Big Ten will be looking as well.
but even so the ACC has survivable options. the core schools have always been basketball first. they could refocus in that direction and go after the Big East two sport schools like UConn, Syracuse and Pitt among others. they even have a shot at looking as far afield as Kansas.
and the Big East is relatively defenseless. they have so many basketball only schools that they can never bring in enough football schools to allow that side of the conference to be proactive in this.
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hank,
I think you make valid points but if the ACC gets stuck at the kids table what happens to the contract value. Football drives revenues, just ask Kansas. To survive in a conference without football value is different. Remember when Harvard / Yale was THE football game of the year! If not, does the ACC want to go back to being the “insignificant” sports conference it was before the ESPN contract came along in the late 70’s / early 80’s?
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Bamatab – I’m a member of LSU’s Rivals site and there really isn’t anything other than just idle speculation. I have a couple friends on the LSU Bd of Supervisors and in the systems office. Everybody is on radio silence in Baton Rouge.
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Alan & Bama,
how would the SEC feel if the adds were A&M / Va Tech?
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duffman,
I think that adding aTm and VT would be a big win for the SEC. Opening up the Texas and DC markets would be a big win. Also, those two selections would give each a really good cross division rival since they both have the “cadet” programs. I think they only other school in the east that might be a more coveted school would be UNC, but I doubt that the SEC could get them unless it appeared that the ACC was in serious trouble.
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Something to consider….
UNC has a long history of success in the Directors Cup, aside from academics adding this little nugget to the SEC can not have escaped slive.
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Because the fate of Kansas has demonstrated how important sports other than football are.
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HH,
from an SEC view UNC would be an academic “home run” the same way the Big 10 is viewing Nebraska as a “football” home run.
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All I know is that a TX NE rematch for B12 Championship this year will be awesome!
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Hank,
interesting theory, as the SEC goes with the same tact as it did in the last expansion (gain new markets and take lemons to make lemonade). If the SEC adds A&M + Va Tech (it gets into Texas and Virgina) and holds the last 2 spaces for Texas / UVA or UNC / NC state or UNC / Maryland type of play to get to 16. By taking in the “lesser” sisters to UT and UVA you have left a much greater play for your last 2 teams, without having to take OU or TT. It would make a bold statement for upping the academic ante.
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hank,
sorry.. that was supposed to tie to your comment.
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yea. will make for a lot of interesting options.
the battle for Texas may turn out to be just a case of a guy (Scott) with no other options being willing to pay sticker plus pay for fancy options. the battles for the mid Atlantic could turn into a real tussle between cagey operators.
I do still find it hard to imagine the Core 4 in the ACC would go anywhere.
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It is my understanding that Utah is in the PAC already; press conference TBA. It is my understanding that Chip’s source is full of it, floating trial balloons for scenarios that were never on the table. It is my understanding that well before this whole Chip Brown business broke, UU and CU were already gold and therefore Baylor and at least one more never had a chance in hell; it was all lies, posturing and Texas politics.
When the Utah announcement is made next week, remember you read this and remember that Utah was always in, which proves Chip and/or his “unnamed sources” to be liars. We were all silly to believe the PAC was looking to take on multiple tier 3 universities in markets that would already be covered by other invitees just because of “politics”.
This UT/Chip Brown business about bringing all of their friends to the party was just them trying to strong arm the PAC either because their sources were not in the loop that knew UU and CU were already in or because they were pissed about it and wanted to push at least UU out, if not CU too. The PAC didn’t bite. Wait and see. Utah will be in and Chip/his source will try to spin it to fit their little fantasy. Don’t buy it when they try to sell it.
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OK, if this is true–and I’m not disputing you–does this mean the P10 stops at 12, or waits until Texas (state and univ.) politics sorts itself out?
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I have no idea. I am not in any PAC loop. I only know that Chip and his source aren’t either, or else they are lying to everyone.
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I’m disputing this.
What are your sources? There are plenty of sources beyond Orangebloods reporting this on our end, including Oklahoma-based sources. Do you have any?
For you to be correct requires (1) the Pac 10 to be jacking with Texas and three/four other schools just to get Utah; and/or (2) Texas to be jacking with several other schools just to make a last-second feint into the Big 10. And as much as some people here might be inclined to think ill of Texas, you have to admit that there’d be no need to stoop to this level of deceit to get what it wants.
This doesn’t even begin to pass the smell test.
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Utah makes sense as a replacement for aTm, but would Texas even want to go to the Pac-16 without aTm? A big part of the allure of the Pac-16 was Texas keeping nearly all of its local rivals.
I think the Pac-16 may be dead with aTm in the SEC. If that happens, then I think Texas will go to the SEC or Big Ten. Letting aTm have the SEC all to itself may be too much for Texas. Plus, the SEC would let Texas keep its local media rights.
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@Paul – I’m not saying Utah is a replacement for TAMU; I’m saying Utah was always in. Chip Brown has spun a mighty big ball of yarn since this all started. Forget everything you’ve read.
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Don’t shoot the messenger. Relax, wait and see. If I’ve been lied to, you will know next week. When Utah is announced, remember I told you this and accept that your sources were lying or lied to.
I suspect pretty much the only “source” any of these Big 12 people have is Chip Brown and his “source”. It’s all emanating from there and people are running with it like he’s Larry Scott.
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@TheBaron:
I think you can rest assured at this stage of the game that the multiple newspapers throughout Texas and Oklahoma who are reporting this, in addition to national media like ESPN, are relying on more than merely taking a rivals.com reporter’s word for it.
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I think you are totally off base about Utah, but you do have a point in your last paragraph. Chryst, former MAC commissioner, former SWC official, former ND player (lots of connections) said he would make 10 calls to see what was going on and the 10th would be the exact same info as the 1st. Info was circular, coming from just a few sources.
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just a question Hop but how many of those reports are just sourcing OrangeBlood who has been very active on the subject? we’ve all seen what passes for reporting at a lot of places. not taking a stance either way on this but so much of the media is just an echo chamber and when they start hearing the same thing repeated often enough by some accepted source they repeat it as well.
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“…we’ve all seen what passes for reporting at a lot of places. not taking a stance either way on this but so much of the media is just an echo chamber and when they start hearing the same thing repeated often enough by some accepted source they repeat it as well.”
Great insight, Hank. If a tale is spun long enough as truth, it will come to be believed as truth… See Global Warming…
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Well, sources are claimed by Orangebloods, like in Nebraska, which even you had to admit was a weak attempt at creating some deniability that this all isn’t coming from Texas, the logical place to be Chip’s one and only source. That Chip Brown tells some whoppers isn’t news to anyone at this point.
What levels Texas would have to stoop to in order to actually be a free agent in this process is anyone’s guess.
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Above @ HH. I’m beginning to dislike wordpress.
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One other thing, is Chip Brown a respected former Dallas Morning News reporter with just tons of contacts, or is he just a rivals.com reporter? Consistency, please. There don’t have to be any sources other than DeLoss/Chip, and whether you want to believe it or not, Texas may have to extricate themselves from the fallout of an ill-considered gambit.
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Utah in the Pac-10 would explain Boise State now going to the Mountain West. And I sense the Utes will partner with Colorado, Texas with Texas Tech and Oklahoma with Okie State.
Next, A&M and Va. Tech go to the SEC. After that, who knows?
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When it comes to teams 13-16 and the likelihood of each, I am no more informed than anyone here. Maybe TT and OSU are on the table; maybe not. It’s all conjecture unless you’re Larry Scott. I do know that Chip’s sources are either liars or grossly misinformed. I have been informed Utah is in and always was; whether it’s a PAC-12 or a PAC-16.
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As a BT guy I’m starting to get a little concerned about the landscape here…..
Assume the Pac 10 to 16 goes through, except A&M goes to SEC, being replaced by KU.
Momentum is for ACC, BT, SEC to go to 16. That’s a total of 12 new teams. Where are they going to come from? Seems to me demand exceeds supply.
As far as the Big 10 goes, under the above scenerio Mo. is the only “western” team still available to the Big 10.
Seems to me Mo. might be a good partner to A&M, going to the SEC. If Bama, Ga, Fl. don’t want FSU because of recruiting concerns. Mo doesn’t threaten any SEC teams and its a new market. And it was a slave state so all is well.
If Mo. and A&M do go to SEC, we’re down to 10 teams needed (ultimately) for the 3 big conferences. Big 10 possibilities might include RU, Pitt, Sya, U Conn, ND. Assuming MD can’t be pried from the ACC, which is very likely, the Big 10 will end up in a battle for those teams with the ACC. Meanwhile SEC has some nice possibilies for 15 and 16, including FSU, Clemson, and WV.
I’m OK with making the futile run for MD, but it won’t happen. I hope we don’t go after GT or Vandy. So, ultimately, it seems like the Big 10 should end up with Mo, Pitt, and RU, and wait for ND. It seems to me that the BT can only lose out in the end by being slow on this………..
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Then wait. There’s no way the ACC can keep up with the Big Ten in the money race. With Nebraska alone, the Big Ten network should be able to comfortably outdistance the ACC per school in a few years.
There’s no reason to just jump the shark and go to 16. That would be a mistake.
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zeek,
now you are starting to see my predator vs prey argument.
in the end, no matter what the ACC can do, it can not switch from predator to prey. I said once we hit 13 all bets are off, and the Pac 16 has crossed that line.
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“Pac 16 has crossed that line”
Allegedly – nothing actually concrete yet…
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shroom,
now you see what has been bugging me all along, and my desire to strike for Maryland first! We have to think like the SEC and not like the Big 10 (in terms of what is the win for slive, and WVU and no longer what we want the SEC to get, because my gut says slive does not want WVU). If I am slive (SEC) I want WVU as much as the Big 10 wants Kansas. we have to put ourselves in slives shoes. “See the gopher, be the gopher”. WVU = Kansas (not on radar) and FSU = Missouri (somebody I can get whenever “I” feel like it). Think of Maryland / UNC / UVA the same way the Big 10 looks at Nebraska / Texas / ND. It seems real clear to me, but it seems like others are not looking at it this way for some reason.
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The SEC brand is exciting football. Maryland does not fit the SEC brand. Maryland seems more like a Big Ten team, with the emphasis on footprints and markets and academics.
I think the SEC would rather have Miami, as an example, than Maryland. With the SEC, it’s all about ratings, and I can’t say that I disagree with the strategy.
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paul,
think footprints and the last SEC expansion, UF already covers Florida. the last SEC adds were Arkansas and USC (new markets). New markets mean new rating, why do you think Texas is such a big deal? Texas has MANY “new” TV’s for the Pac 16 (and Big 10 / SEC).
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1. There’s no momentum. We’ve all known the B10 endgame is 16 and they are at 12. The PAC-16 is a desperate move by a conference who finds itself backed in a corner with UW and UCLA still rebuilding and USC getting sanctioned while the PAC-10 is in a contract year. They’ll practically be two 8 team conferences with a scheduling and TV deal. Or at least that’s what I expect sold it to Stanford. No one else has any financial reason to go over 12. Heck, the Big East is going to have a hard time going over 9 without splitting from G-Town, ‘Nova, etc.
2. Even if TAMU goes SEC, who’s to say the PAC’ll take KU over Utah? Sure, Texas will probably perfer KU, and it’s a better basketball team. But Utah’s much better for football. Plus, I’m sure if JD is as awesome as you Big Ten folks think, he’ll put a call in and get dibs on KU if he thinks its necessary.
3. Have we yet seen anything indicating SEC interest in TAMU? We all assume it’s there, but there’s no more money coming in. Can the SEC get the votes for TAMU without UT? Will the SEC waive Vandy to the Big Ten for a spot for TAMU? Would the Big Ten take that deal?
4. TAMU would definitely disrupt the balance of SEC power. Bama-Auburn are the easternmost SEC-W schools. The addition of another school in the West likely means moving one over. Another western school means moving both. I doubt that the UF-UGa-Tenn triumvirate is real excited about that possibility. I wonder if UA and AU are any more excited about it.
5. Even with that, the Big Ten still has big guns in their arsenal: BTN, equal revenue sharing, and the CIC. If they are looking to get any school outside of ND that’s a hard combo to say no to.
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FLP,
1) I agree the B 10 endgame is 16, which means the SEC and Pac will be at 16 as well.
2) I agree but once the Pac has UT do they care?
3) The A&M + Va Tech things has me thinking.
4) In a chess match between delany and slive, and a A&M + Va Tech balances East and West.
5) I agree, which is why I would like to see slive to strike for Maryland!
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4. Good point. Can’t believe I missed that.
There’s a lot of apparent deadweight in the current SEC. The Mississippi schools, Arkansas, Vandy, S.Car., and UK (football). I wonder if the SEC is as solid as we assume it is. Might it not be in the best interest of a majority of the schools to start kicking out squads to make room? Again, I don’t see more profit from 16 than 12. I doubt it’s feasible, but each member school has to look out for #1 first.
5. It would be a great move if they could pull it off.
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I agree with FLP_NDRox on all points.
Ignoring ND for the moment; none of the ACC schools value independence or anything like that.
The Big Ten can wait as long as it needs to for schools like Maryland/Va to become available.
The Big Ten’s money streams will continue to outpace the ACC and as the contract renegotiations come up, that distance will once again become $10M+ per school.
How are those schools going to be able to turn that down eventually?
I think our next expansion will look more like Arkansas/South Carolina where we add two teams for markets that fit.
ND if it ever does come, would be #15 or 16 in that scenario. If they and everyone else know that 12 is just a stepping stone to 16, then why join now or at 13 or 14?
So, I think the Big Ten is going to look hard at markets that make sense.
And of course, the Big Ten can outwait the Big East and hope at the same time that Rutgers continues to try to improve its profile, increase size of stadium, etc.
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I think that the Big 10 has played round 1, and that it is up to the other conferences to play round 2.
Missouri may still be a target of the Big 10, but it is not in the position to be dictating the timeline. Missouri and Kansas have no other options (MWC maybe, but how is that better than the Big 12, which was not good enough to prevent a Big 10 defection). If that is what the Big 10 ends up doing at the end just to reach 16 teams, so be it.
It is at this point that everyone will jump in and say that the Big 10 is not going to expand to 16 just to get 16 teams. However, isn’t that the assumption with respect to all the other conferences??? If the P10 and B10 go to 16 teams, the assumption is that the SEC and ACC would necessarily follow. However, why wouldn’t it work in reverse? If anything, I would think that the Big 10 is in the best position to “expand for the sake of expansion” because their network allows for revenue flexibility, whereas contracts with ESPN would have to be renegotiated before an increase in revenue occurs. But I digress. Merely pointing out that Kansas and Missouri are end of game additions due to lack of other options.
The ACC and Big East present the schools with options.
If the SEC penetrates the ACC somehow, that frees up schools for the Big 10 that are preferable, I would think, to the Big East schools.
If the SEC does not break up the ACC, then the Big 10 can try to do so or it can select the Big East schools in nice markets. Granted the Northeast is not growth area demographically, but I don’t see New York state leaving top 5 status in population. 19 million people is 19 million people. If Syracuse/Rutgers can add that market, and I think that they can if they are added together (separately, I am skeptical), then that’s a HUGE market (add in NJ too). If this is about money, NY/NYC/NJ is, and will be for a long time, a mega source of revenue.
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ez,
while i see your argument, as soon as the Big 10 raids the BE, ND joins the ACC and the Big 10 has just wasted valuable picks (remember only 4) for schools they are not super excited about getting.
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Auburn has a lot of ties to the east and wanted to be in the east at one point. Problem is Alabama then has 2 must play games in the east-Auburn, TN.
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Has anyone considered that Oklahoma is also considering SEC, especially if A&M goes. I also see SEC looking east to Clemson, VA Tech, Miami or FSU (any of those 2).
Big Ten needs SEC to raid ACC. That way ACC raids Big Least and forces ND’s hand. It also puts more pressure on UT to come along for the ultimate conference with OSU, PSU , Mich, Neb, ND etc.
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Ummm…. 1,000 posts every 24 hours here.
It’s come up before.
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geauxbucks,
they both need to raid the ACC
getting hit from both sides implodes the ACC (see also current Big 12 implosion). when thinking SEC expansion the smart move is to go for new markets, not double up where you already rule. UF, UGA, and USC penetrate their states for SEC control.
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OU will go where Texas goes. The battle will be on the other side, where the Big10 & SEC are going to make overtures to ACC schools.
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Lol I missed the new thread in the overflow of emails. I thought it was weird this morning to have an empty inbox.
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M,
ha ha, I think you felt like missouri or beebee!
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cruel
but yea
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hank,
yeah I was sorry i said it, it was smarmy. I am still giddy about Nebraska, so it slipped out. i really do feel bad for the situation missouri now finds itself in.
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yea
Iowa State is in an even tougher spot. Missouri still has a remote shot at the SEC and a pretty good shot at a MWC that could become a BCS conference. But no one is speaking up for Iowa State yet.
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I feel bad for ISU, KSU and KU. Missouri made their own bed.
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LMAO!
BTW is it true that the Big XII Commissioner is deciding to change his name to either the “Captain of the Titanic” or possibly “Baghdad Bob?”
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geauxbucks,
umm, I am thinking “would you like fries with that”!
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PBC has apparently been blocked from posting any updates on his thread on Northwestern’s board. Apparently he’s going into a “silent phase” like the B10 did. I suggested he post his updates here instead (would WordPress’ servers explode) but doubt it’ll happen. Either way I’ll be checking in religiously.
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badger,
I am looking at PBC and OB as follows….
a) OB – texas spin
b) PBC – Big 10 spin
and will treat each accordingly!
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with the exception that in PBC you actually get an idea of who is talking. OB just denies certain things are even happening. for example early last week PBC insisted theat the Big Ten and Texas were talking and OB saif they weren’t. which is more likely. all spin aside it is clear there were talks and there are at least some in Texas who want to consider the Big Ten.
also I posted earlier in the week that I had a contact at Colorado. I understand you can take my credibility fwiw but my contact absolutely has significant contact at Colorado. I know that for a fact. I absolutely believe he has contact to the person he said he was. that person absolutely confirmed that there were talks, nothing was decided and talks were very tense. and this person would know. he didn’t have any idea how it would resolve at that point so didn’t share PBC predictions. but its worth noting at that time he was already officially a Pac xx guy so he would have every reason to root for Texas to the pac xx.
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if you don’t mind my asking where you hearing this? I may have missed it on his board.
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Badgerholic,
it appears he’s been blocked from new posts but can update old post so look at his original post. nothing new this morning however, just ragging on Iowa.
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Obviously, Delaney got to him yet again because he’s talking too much. 🙂
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btw Hop its Delany. your future conference overlord may prefer his name spelled correctly 🙂
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hank,
If he pulls it off he just may change his name to Conference Overlord or Supreme Master!
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@duff
or perhaps just Yoda. he kind of looks like him
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hank,
I do not know..
I can see the Kansas / Missouri folks making Delany Dart boards, not sure if I can see yoda dart boards.
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A poster on another thread made an excellent point which I will paraphrase: “assume your “enemy” will take a step that you don’t want them to take rather than the step that makes your life easier.” In this context, the SEC expanding by taking Texas A&M is an excellent move — does A&M “carry” Texas — no, but A&M does provide a healthy slice of viewers. Would Virginia Tech “carry” Washington D.C. — but does MD carry D.C. easier? It expands the SEC into more excellent markets and deepens its recruiting base in excellent recruiting areas — Virginia and Texas.
A&M, FSU and VT are strategically canny moves for the SEC if they decide to expand.
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rich2,
now you see why I have been driving the Maryland bus, as it strikes back at just such an SEC move. If the SEC gets A&M and Va Tech, they can hold out for UVA / UNC type play, or take FSU / Ga Tech but it puts them in control NOT the Big 10 to make such a play.
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You guys have finally convinced me about MD being a logical candidate for the B10. Maybe zeek is correct that a combination of MD and Rutgers/Pitt is much more than a holding action until we see what ND does.
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If the SEC manages to convince VTech to defect, I can’t see the Big10 _not_ making a strong play for both Maryland & Virginia.
This, of course, will set the table for the battles in the next round of expansion: The battle for NC, the battle for Florida, and the battle for Georgia (nobody cares about SC), all between the Big10 & SEC.
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I think the battle is going to be for states where the Big 10 and SEC can open new domination. The battleground will be MD, NC, and VA – the SEC already has FL, GA, and SC.
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Here are additional reasons why MD is a terrible choice and NOT getting an invite:
1. B10 has no interest in destabilizing the ACC; doing so only makes it easier for SEC to expand; indeed, destabilizing the ACC may even push/necessitate that the SEC expand and that is not desired by the B10. Taking MD destabilizes the ACC. No invite.
2. The evidence — actual evidence — of what the B10 Presidents want is this (based on who they actually have invited in the last 20 years): a football power with high academic credentials (not exceptional or top 25 but 90th percentile “high”); this suggests that football is a huge part of this decision. MD is a horrible football team/school. No invite.
3. Delaney is a master at publicity and he is only publicizng the “real” candidates. So far, he “vetted” the choices long in advance of actually getting anywhere close to inviting. Rutgers and Mizzu and Pitt and ND and the TX pair have been the constant candidates in the B10 rumor mill. (and Delaney IS feeding the B10 rumor mill; he’s just better at it than BXII/Chip Brown).
When we all first heard of Rutgers, we were all like: “Rutgers?!? WTF?!?” Now we are “informed, and therefore, reformed” and Rutgers “makes sense.” No such “ad campaign” for MD; ergo: no invite. Side note: the ND and NEBs and TXs do not need ad campaigns; however Rutgers, Mizzu and certainly MD do need ad campaigns. No ad campaign for MD = not a finalist.
Now maybe this blog is the leading edge of that publicity campaign ….
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BB,
yes, except Nebraska was never vetted in the original 5, I am looking for other schools that might fit – but were NOT in the original 5.
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With all the talk of Virginia Tech, Maryland, Virginia, Syracuse, and Rutgers, I’m curious why Missouri has been cast aside. I understand that they were one of the first rumored schools, and at this point in the game their name has been tarnished from the whole process. The above schools have slight (Rutgers) to large (Virginia) edges on Mizzou in academics, but as we saw with the Nebraska choice, academics clearly aren’t everything. Mizzou and Nebraska are very similar in that regard.
When it comes to athletics, NU obviously has a huge football brand and national following, so I totally understand the selection. However, compared to the other schools in discussion, MU’s athletics look excellent.
Average of 10 wins a season over last 3 football seasons.
Ranked #1 in the country in football as recently as a couple seasons ago.
A large number of NFL draft picks, far more than any of the other schools discussed.
4 NCAA tournament wins in last 2 seasons.
2 Elite Eight appearances in last 8 seasons.
Big 12 basketball tournament champions 2 seasons ago.
Large football stadium, averaged 64k last year in somewhat of a disappointing season.
What am I missing folks?
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the markets and academics in the east.
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As in my post above, I think the issue is that Missouri is no longer in a position to call the shots (if it ever was). The Big 10 can work on the Big East/ACC… and always come back to Missouri.
If the SEC stands pat and the ACC stands pat without having defections, Missouri could end up back in the mix.
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I’m not sure why all the Mo hatred on this board; as to the BT presidents, I think academics are the big issue; if MO were added now Mo and Neb would be the two lowest ranked BT schools…………..
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That information about votes for FSU and Texas A&M is interesting. I was under the impression that the A&M invite went like this:
SEC-“Hey would you like to join?”
A&M-“Sure I would, sign me up”
SEC-“Hmmm… we’ll need to keep even divisions. Any chance you could get a friend (*cough* Texas *cough*) to come along?”
A&M-*angry glare*
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funny, but probably true
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A&M: I’ve got a maroon buddy in southwestern Virginia — even has a corps of cadets, like me — but he looks like a turkey, even though he now calls himself this stupid nickname “Hokie.” Would that keep him out of the lodge?
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vincent,
you are a genius i totally missed it!
“The Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets (VTCC) is one of only two military organizations established as an integral part of a major United States civilian, public university; the other is Texas A&M University. Both are Senior Military Colleges.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_Corps_of_Cadets
i TOTALLY missed that angle, a perfect football rival like Army / Navy *smacks forehead*
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I agree with you, Duffman. Also, it is interesting to observe how low standards provide such a great asset. If the SEC added VT, A&M and FSU — the “academic” standing of the SEC significantly improves as well as athletically and financially. There is not another of the possible “superconferences that could make that claim.
As long as the alums of SEC schools (except Vandy) accept that the value of their degree does not carry well outside of the South and don’t really care, the SEC really has more cards to play than any other conference.
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rich2,
ding ding ding.. now you see my thinking. If I can think it somebody in the slive camp should be smarter than me. I am not sold on the slive is a dummy camp.
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in fairness UF is already AAU, and UGA is pretty close to it. I have a feeling that is offset by the Mississippi schools.
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I don’t think anyone doubts the value of Vandy/UF/UGa as institutions.
The emphasis on AAU isn’t the be-all-end-all of the conversation.
Note that Syracuse is one of those that has let its AAU membership sort of wither away as a badge of honor. It doesn’t do big research at all, and so the AAU designation doesn’t mean much for them…
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FWIW
I think catholic university was AAU once, they were the same way and dropped membership.
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I think the Big Ten can out wait the ACC and the Money is better here. But if it is a sure thing to go to 16 and they want to continue to up the pressure they should not wait. They should go ahead and grab Rutgers or make a play at Maryland. This will assure them the potential money superiority if you assumed markets from those two schools come true. For the Big Ten the biggest draw was always the academics and the money. The academics wont change drastically but the money can change with the additions.
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looking into the future if the Texas group goes to the Pac 16 and the Big Ten eventually goes to 16 how would people feel about stealing a page from basketball, a conference challenge. Every year on the same weekend every Pac 16 team plays a Big Ten team. It would be a marketing bonanza.
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Every team? I don’t feel comfortable with that. If the conference is having a down year it could be significant challenge when bowls are awarded as well negative publicity. In basketball with all the games and the more open format of the NCCA you can regroup. It also spoils the rose bowl just a bit for me. A few odd games definitely but not a total 1 -12 challenge.
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Nigerian scam or legit? Blocked by request or for trolling?
FWIW, PBC’s recent posts/updates that I could find:
——————
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143973318&mid=143973318&sid=901&style=2
Re: Anyone know why PBC’s posts from late, late last night
have i been blocked?
Posted on 6/12 8:47 AM
Yes I definitely cannot post any more on the expansion thread, but apparently can update earlier posts. See the original post for the most recent update, which is very important.
I deleted in May because I was asked to. I’m posting now because my friend told me the admin no longer cares about what I say. They think of me as some message board slob who noone can legitimately quote. (they’re pretty much dead on)
Posted on 6/12 9:29 AM
——————
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143976865&mid=143976865&sid=901&style=2
No more new posts from me!
It seems like I have been blocked. Perhaps Lou could confirm/deny this to the best of his knowledge for me.
I haven’t spoken with my friend today, but I’m guessing now someone is asking Yahoo/Rivals to not let me post any more. Before they just asked me to delete everything I posted, but now I’m just unable to post on the existing thread. I think now, enough people have seen the posts that they wouldn’t bother asking me to delete them.
I’m getting mixed signals here. I was told that it was fine for me to post everything, but obviously things have changed. We’re actually going to stop posting anything until it all shakes out.
I know all you justIowa fans will be held in suspense, but I did my best. At least I helped you by breaking the story that you will now have two NUs to kick you around every year.
Posted on 6/12 9:49 AM
—————
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143839427&mid=143839427&sid=901&style=2
— 6/12 Morning Update:
(Haven’t talked to anyone re: Big Ten expansion this morning, so I thought I would take a moment to post about a more important topic: Northwestern’s absolute ownership of Iowa. Hope we don’t hurt your boys too bad this year, Hawkeyes)
This post was edited on 6/12 9:31 AM by PURPLE Book Cat
========================================================================================================================
Perhaps the real reason he’s blocked, has to do with the thread below?
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143964918&mid=143964918&sid=901&style=2
Whatever happens, Big Ten expansion has (temporarily?) ruined this board.
Conspiracy theories, unreliable sources (90% are talking heads’ Twitter accounts), an unprecedented amount of choleric flame attacks on other schools and even our own fellow fans, numerous threads with incredibly misleading subjects, deification and then crucifixion of Delaney/PURPLE Book Cat, et cetera. I hope the pain meds I’m on aren’t thinning my skin, but am I the only person genuinely put off by what this board has transformed into?!?
This is beyond ridiculous and has ceased to be fun. I no longer care anymore who joins the Big Ten, Pac Ten, SEC, MWC, WAC, MAC, or whatever. For what little it’s worth, I’m done with the football board until the expansion talk subsides, Kenosha starts, or footballphil returns and restores order – whichever comes first.
Does the premium board provide a reprieve from this nonsense? If so, I’m going to get a membership once I’m done with medical leave and my finances are back in order.
Until then, Catch you all on the Rant board.
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Mountain West eyes KU, K-State, and Mizzou.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5279018
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Oh man I can’t believe how bad it sucks to be Baylor right now.
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Baylor should not be in a BCS conference.
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And pity the poor ‘Clones.
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I’m shamelessly stealing this link from HH.
How an Aggie fan reads FtT:
http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/dialectp.cgi?dialect=redneck&url=https://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2010/06/11/big-red-in-the-big-ten/
Fry mah hide!! Fry mah hide!
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Oops, multi-link moderation filter, so I’ll post this one link at a time.
Nigerian scam or legit? Blocked by request or for trolling?
FWIW, PBC’s recent posts/updates that I could find.
Part 1:
——————
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143973318&mid=143973318&sid=901&style=2
Re: Anyone know why PBC’s posts from late, late last night
have i been blocked?
Posted on 6/12 8:47 AM
Yes I definitely cannot post any more on the expansion thread, but apparently can update earlier posts. See the original post for the most recent update, which is very important.
I deleted in May because I was asked to. I’m posting now because my friend told me the admin no longer cares about what I say. They think of me as some message board slob who noone can legitimately quote. (they’re pretty much dead on)
Posted on 6/12 9:29 AM
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Part 2:
——————
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143976865&mid=143976865&sid=901&style=2
No more new posts from me!
It seems like I have been blocked. Perhaps Lou could confirm/deny this to the best of his knowledge for me.
I haven’t spoken with my friend today, but I’m guessing now someone is asking Yahoo/Rivals to not let me post any more. Before they just asked me to delete everything I posted, but now I’m just unable to post on the existing thread. I think now, enough people have seen the posts that they wouldn’t bother asking me to delete them.
I’m getting mixed signals here. I was told that it was fine for me to post everything, but obviously things have changed. We’re actually going to stop posting anything until it all shakes out.
I know all you justIowa fans will be held in suspense, but I did my best. At least I helped you by breaking the story that you will now have two NUs to kick you around every year.
Posted on 6/12 9:49 AM
—————
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Part 3:
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143839427&mid=143839427&sid=901&style=2
— 6/12 Morning Update:
(Haven’t talked to anyone re: Big Ten expansion this morning, so I thought I would take a moment to post about a more important topic: Northwestern’s absolute ownership of Iowa. Hope we don’t hurt your boys too bad this year, Hawkeyes)
This post was edited on 6/12 9:31 AM by PURPLE Book Cat
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Perhaps the real reason he’s blocked, has to do with the thread below?
———
From another poster over there:
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143964918&mid=143964918&sid=901&style=2
Whatever happens, Big Ten expansion has (temporarily?) ruined this board.
Conspiracy theories, unreliable sources (90% are talking heads’ Twitter accounts), an unprecedented amount of choleric flame attacks on other schools and even our own fellow fans, numerous threads with incredibly misleading subjects, deification and then crucifixion of Delaney/PURPLE Book Cat, et cetera. I hope the pain meds I’m on aren’t thinning my skin, but am I the only person genuinely put off by what this board has transformed into?!?
This is beyond ridiculous and has ceased to be fun. I no longer care anymore who joins the Big Ten, Pac Ten, SEC, MWC, WAC, MAC, or whatever. For what little it’s worth, I’m done with the football board until the expansion talk subsides, Kenosha starts, or footballphil returns and restores order – whichever comes first.
Does the premium board provide a reprieve from this nonsense? If so, I’m going to get a membership once I’m done with medical leave and my finances are back in order.
Until then, Catch you all on the Rant board.
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Thread that started it all, and PBC’s following comments:
—————–
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=142885732&mid=142885732&sid=901&style=2
Expansion News from within the Big Ten
I just had a few beers tonight with a friend who works for the Big Ten here in Chicago. According to him, the Big Ten has focused their efforts on and is getting hot with three schools: Notre Dame, Texas, and Nebraska.
A few things stood out about what he told me. First, contrary to my understanding of the benefits of expansion, the Big Ten is NOT pursuing a playoff system in football. Instead of a playoff, the football teams would all be required to add an additional one or two out of conference game, which would push the regular season back one week or two. The Big Ten wants to maintain the end of season rivalry games at the end of the football season as opposed to adding a playoff.
Second, the Big Ten, Texas and Notre Dame are discussing a special rule to accommodate both of those schools. Instead of playing 8 games, both Texas and ND would play 7 to enable each school to play 6 out of conference games. That’s apparently the caveat that brought both to the table, and Texas and ND also want to play each other every year. The tradeoff is that an 8-0 Big Ten team would always trump a 7-0 ND/Texas as conference champion, which is a potential logistical sticking point for the Big Ten and these teams. But apparently ND and Texas value the extra OOC game more than the conference championship potential, and ND and Texas want to play each other every year making the tie between two 7-0 teams impossible. They’re also looking at potentially giving a automatic BCS slot for a 7-0 ND/Texas Big Ten team that loses the conference championship to an 8-0 team as a carrot, where the 8-0 team could still get the at-large but isn’t guaranteed.
Finally, the Big East is essentially pushing ND to discussions with the Big Ten. The Big East has presented an ultimatum to ND to play football or get out of the conference for the other sports in order to protect the integrity of the remainder of the conference. Apparently discussions have taken place between the Big Ten and the Big East, and the current understanding is that the Big Ten will not accept any other Big East schools if ND joins the Big Ten. ND also will retain a national schedule, particularly with Texas joining, where it would have the ability to schedule 6 OOC games plus one game with Texas. This means they’re picking up only three additional games with Big Ten schools while playing in the conference.
Very cool to hear the details from the inside tonight.
— 6/9/2010 Update:
Thanks to spartantailgate.com for preserving my original post. I have kept notes on the entire development of this and will write it into a book or some other form, it really has been fascinating. It’s pretty clear at this point that neither I nor my friend will be in any trouble for me writing anything.
Congratulations to the Big Ten either way. Today is a big day for you, after literally years and years of work.
This post was edited on 6/10 10:21 AM by PURPLE Book Cat
Posted on 5/8 4:05 AM
————————
(The rest of the thread had lots of posts from 5/8-/21 deleted by PBC on 5/21, then on 6/9 info above was added or repeated at the end of the thread.)
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So, if as has been reported by ESPN that Texas + to the PAC 10 is a done deal that will be confirmed on Tuesday, what does any of this mean?
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BTW, here’s his latest thread from a few days ago that was updated through last night:
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=901&fid=57&style=2&tid=143839427&Page=1
I captured all his posts and those he directly responded to on that thread, in case those are later deleted. Reflects what existed as of about an hour ago. I expect those won’t be removed and ultimately they won’t matter, but have it just in case. No need to repost that here while the original thread is still on their site.
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Gone over to the pay side. Perhaps blocked to milk this Chip Brown-Ketchup Boy style.
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PBC looking increasingly odd. From a moderator on the NW Board:
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143976865&mid=143976865&sid=901&style=2
Lou V
ADMIN
Post #11427
WildcatReport.com Dream Stoker
MyFanPage
Add Buddy
Re: No more new posts from me! Reply
I am not showing you blocked and I certainly didn’t do it. Are you still unable to post on the thread?
Posted on 6/12 12:07 PM | IP: Logged
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Mystery solved. Server located in the Bermuda Triangle.
Well, either that or this:
http://northwestern.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=57&tid=143976865&mid=143976865&sid=901&style=2
Finn_Finn
Re: No more new posts from me!
PBC, your not blocked. The problem is that your original thread reached past 10 pages. After so many posts, it starts becoming harder for people, when they make a post, for it to actually show up. This happens quite often on the Football Recruiting Mainboard, especially if it’s a very interesting thread. If I remember correctly, in a thread like that, in order for you to make a post and it being posted, you would have to reply from somebody other than the original post. You can probably edit the posts you have made, including the OP, but if you plan on making a new post, reply from another post in the thread.
Posted on 6/12 2:41 PM
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The Illuminati is getting sloppy these days.
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pens,
🙂
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And then there’s this, from a NW forum poster visiting the Orangebloods forum:
http://texas.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?SID=902&fid=61&style=2&tid=143899171&Page=2
EvanstonCat
WildcatReport.com
Post #12997
N-DUB
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The PacX Reply
was getting a network bundle with the BTN, and they were going to get CU + Kansas + anyone else that was left over.
Also, more importantly, you assume that they had Texas ready to come over. At the time, the plan wasn’t for Texas to go to the PacX. But, now perhaps it may be a reality.
At least that was what the Big10 thought. Maybe Scott and Texas pulled one over the Big10 afterall.
Let’s see – I don’t think this is over yet. Let’s see what happens. BTW, PBC just got censored with a threat to cease and desist. For whatever its worth.
Posted on 6/12 2:25 PM
———-
Color me skeptical.
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Frank,
You have to consider yourself a main player and/or reason for the expansion. Your analysis several months ago has been spot on and continues to be right on. Especially the, “Think like a university president” comment which I still see many folks, even in the national media, failing to do. I sir, salute you and thank you for the many months of programming with more twists and suspense than Lost’s final season.
Welcome Big Red! I am proud to have you as a member and look very forward to the new rivalries that will undoubtedly ensue.
My next question is what will UT, A&M and ND do? If A&M does go SEC, does UT take the easy road to the BCS with USC in dire straits or do they go for the enormous pay increase and go with Delany and ultimately put ND in an almost incomparable position?
I know it still is not that close to happening (although it is looking better than it did a week ago), but if the Big Ten gets Neb, UT and ND that would be the equivalent to hitting the royal flush in this Texas Hold ‘Em poker tournament.
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Repeat. Rutgers and Maryland to the Big 10 is coming.
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Am I the only person underwhelmed by the Pac10’s expansion? Although they land the coveted Longhorn program, that success is dilluted by the fact that it took 4 or 5 schools to do it, making the value added per school rather limited.
For the trouble of adding 6 teams, the Pac10 gets two FBall powers (TEX and OK) and one great TV market (with a solid COL market also). Academicly, the Pac10 remains separated. Unlike the united B10 universities, each of the Pac10 schools appear to stand independently in research and academic prestige.
In contrast to the Pac10’s proposed additions, look at the B10’s most recent expansions: PSU and NU. These moves locked up two football powers and the entire Pennsylvania market. And while the Pac16 is maxed out, the Big10 still has 4 more moves to make. I suspect they’ll make each one count.
In the end, TEX is great, CU is okay, and OK atleast is an FBall power. However, Tech and OSU do not add anything. While A&M is akin to Pitt for the B10: a fine university, but doesn’t add value above the big state school (adding KU could help here)
To me, this expansion seemed like a desperation move, with the Pac10 realizing TEX was the only other bigtime program w/in 1000 miles of the Pacific Coast. However, I predict that rather than pull the Pac10 closer to the MW and East Coast viewing markets, it’ll push the old Big12 South further from these TV sets.
For my part, I’ll be content to supplement my B10 viewership with SEC FBall and ACC/BE BBAll. But I’m sure I’ll catch a few Pac16 matchups when the cocktails take me late into the night…If Boise St. isn’t on.
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see, more evidence if what he was posted was not reliable, credible info he would not have been blocked from posting anymore. People just would not believe him.
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The Man is clearly keeping him down.
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I think Delaney needs to have a four-way pow wow with the Big East, ACC and SEC to try to stave off what could become Armageddon, with the Big East folding (at least as a FB conference) from raids by the BT and ACC, the SEC raiding the ACC, the public getting disgusted at the greed of the major conferences and Congress stepping into the mix and perhaps nullifying everything. Yes, expansion is exciting, but Delaney can offer a reduced expansion alternative that avoids Armageddon. The four conferences would agree to the following: The Big East agrees to dump Notre Dame, and ND and Missouri go to the BT. The Big East gets Kansas, Kansas State and Iowa State and surrenders two of its members to the ACC and one to the SEC. The SEC expands by two teams, maybe one of them being Texas A&M or TCU, and maybe another being West Virginia or Pitt. The Big East would be raided, but they’d remain as a BCS conference and would gain Kansas and KSU for basketball. Everyone would be happy, including Congress and the public, and no one would look like the Bad Guy (except the PAC-10). Domers, after getting booted, would have no choice but to join the BT, having no other conference to go to, with the ACC, SEC and BE agreeing to lock them out for the sake of avoiding Armageddon.
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Before executing your plan, I think that the four conferences should get Congress to pass a special law that will specifically allow the four conferences to collude and engage in “cartel-like” behavior with impunity and without fear of lawsuits by attorney generals representing states where universities are left out, by the universities who are left out or other commercial enterprises that suffer financial loss due to the collusive behavior. I would watch C-Span when that bill was introduced on the Senate Floor.
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rich2,
Frank should just link it here, there is already an audience!
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doug,
I think you make an excellent point, but the train already left the station. To me the worry is the ACC, not the BE for reasons already stated. I think the BE feels pretty calm if ACC is the next implosion. the problem right now is delany and missouri (nobody in the ACC or BE wants to be missouri) and how slive and delany settle things. each will jockey for control, and will escalate (think US vs USSR) in the cold war. If I am right, it actually is the best spot to wait until the ACC implosion, when they can pick off survivors easier.
If the Big State Schools get poached, the BE can swoop in and pick up Duke (ala Kansas), Wake, Miami, and BC. It is actually best for the BE to wait, because the SEC has no interest in BE schools.
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As things stand, with no pact, I think the Big Ten has to raid the Big East in order to pry Notre Dame away. The SEC and/or Big Ten would raid the ACC, and the ACC would replace the lost teams by raiding the Big East. In any case, if the BT moves east, either the ACC or the BE will probably fall, and Delany will become the Bad Guy, and that will hurt the BTN ratings.
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B10 has many reasons to NOT destabilize the ACC and any SEC raid on the ACC will not be easy. I’ve seen no one here provide any plausible reason for even a single ACC team to go to the SEC. Lots of comments like: “SEC should get … [so and so]” but no comments explaining why “so and so” would be attracted to the SEC.
It’s not money ($ is now “in the same ballpark”); not academics; not to play football cuz a lot easier getting an ACC championship than an SEC.
So, IMO, SEC raids only if the ACC is already falling apart. B10 will not do that. ACC balances SEC and keeps SEC from getting too big; ACC is a potential “no” vote against some SEC plan that is opposed by B10 and P10/16.
Bottom line: No MD invite (or GT or VA or N. Car or Duke, etc.)
And no Vandy. B10 has no interest in “poking the bear.”
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From a game theory, B10 raids on anyone other than BC or MD in ACC free up VT/NCSU to go to SEC. VT fb homerun (why is B10 using baseball terms?), both demographic homeruns.
If TX & ND aren’t coming, from a game theory-go to 14 with Rutgers and MD, leaving a spot for ND later and wounding BE.
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Convert the word “needs to have” to “would not object to briefly entertaining the idea of having”
As a Big East guy, I don’t see why this would be Delaney’s obligation/need.
If I am the mega conferences, I say let Congress undo what gets done if it must. In the meantime, we will assume Congress does not get involved.
I do think that the time has come for the IRS to revisit the tax issues for this athletic revenue. I am a huge sports guy, but we have long passed the point where these schools are operating sports on anything remotely passing as charitable or academic. You want to play like the pros, pay like the pros.
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ez,
I made this point a few blogs ago, the “donors” are getting pissed as corporations are taking their seats.
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If you’re referring to that Yankee article, it was a great find.
Professional sports, especially baseball, are becoming very corporate, very expensive and less about the game.
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I’ve read where there is some concern about the demographics of college football fans. Younger fans (who the advertisers are after) are into other forms of entertainment.
I’ve really been surprised that FCS hasn’t imploded. I expected more and more schools to drop either fb or scholarships. Hasn’t happened-yet.
Realignment could blow up the MAC and Sun Belt if they lose a few of their stronger programs.
The strong brands-BCS schools-still seem to be getting stronger.
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bullet,
it is actually a much bigger issue on the college level because of the “tax exempt” status they enjoy. As I said earlier, I know way to much about this end. If I can see it, I feel sure others can as well.
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If the SEC got West Virginia and either TCU or Texas A&M, I think they’d be okay with agreeing to just stay a 14, as would the BT if they got ND and Missouri. In agreeing to that, those two conferences would avoid being pegged as greedy robber barons. If the Big East gave the ACC Syracuse and Boston College, the ACC would probably be happy, especially knowing that they wouldn’t get raided by the BT or the SEC. The Big East, retaining decent football teams in Pitt, Rutgers and Cincy, would still be able to maintain its BCS standing, especially with the folding of the Big 12.
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doug,
the SEC does not want WVA (small population, bad academics). Think like delany, but substitute schools to compensate for slive..
delany wants ND
slive wants UNC
it is a chess match with only 4 slots left for each, so they want to get the biggest bang for the buck.
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why would UNC want to join the SEC?
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BB,
predator vs prey
in an earlier blog we debated twins vs no twins. Nebraska and Maryland have no twins. UNC has NCState, and UVA has Va Tech.
at 16 the big 10 and sec only have 4 slots left (we assume one is reserved for ND). This means between the Big 10 and SEC they could raid up to 7 schools (and they want new markets – so no FSU, Miami, Clemson, Ga Tech to the SEC). Take away those 4, and think of PUBLIC (more alumni) and UNC is in play. If so having a twin may put it in the SEC if the Big 10 did not want NC State for academic reasons.
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ACC already has BC;left the BE in 2005
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Watching Delaney speak on the expansion special was very interesting. He emphasized institutional fit, proximity, and willingness to work together as the primary qualifications. He could of course be blowing smoke, but from what he said I doubt he was ever a serious proponent of ND or Texas.
How is this for a theory: Gordon Gee was in fact the guy who wanted Texas, while Delaney was against it. This part would explain why Gee apparently was trying to convince Delaney to go after Texas in the email.
Going off of Delaney’s speech, the candidate list seems to be narrowed to perhaps only Maryland, Virginia, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, or in-footprint schools (Pitt).
Let put it this way: if other schools get added, he will have to come up with a different speech.
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hes playing the game!
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good point. I’m wondering if the institutional fit and style has a much bigger place in Big Ten plans than we expected. Not a judgement but just an observation it is very clear the institutional culture at Texas and Notre Dame. Through the SWC and Big 12 it has been very clear that Texas is the biigest economic engine for the conference. They have become very accustomed to both the responsibility and the deferrence. The Big Ten while it does have engines that are larger than others have a lot more parts that have been able to contribute. So they developed more of an equal partnership culture. It just is what it is. The Big Ten would ask texas to change its personality. While they may understand and accept that intellectually it takes a long time to change personality. they just think and react differently. not a value judgement it just is what it is.
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Bret Bielema has his own idea about the new Thanksgiving rivalry:
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@BretBielema I contacted the Big 10 office about hopefully scheduling Nebraska as a last game rival on a yearly basis. Possible starting a trophy game.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If Iowa is tied to Minnesota that weekend, then Wisconsin is the only logical choice for Nebraska to play. I wonder what the trophy would be.
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something depicting a fan with a plastic yellow food object hat (something like cheese covered corn?) … 🙂
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I can see that showing up if you google ‘corn porn’.
btw a warning to anyone who might actually want to google that there are lots of video of Rachel Ray removing cornsilk from an ear of corn. its not pretty.
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It would make much more sense to me to have Iowa-Nebraska as the Thanksgiving game leaving Wisconsin and Minnesota to battle for the axe the last weekend.
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he can ask but Osborne has said he wants PSU. Penn State/Nebraska and Michigan/Ohio State back to back on the same day make a good package.
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hmm.. interesting, but assuming east/west divisions, PSU/NEB as last game is then a potential rematch in the CCG.
or is everyone hearing that there is no CCG and the scheduling remains as it is now with three teams rotating off the schedule every two years?
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haven’t heard anything yet but I like the no division model for purposes of reucing the length of time any two team don’t play and thus enhancing conference integration. we’ll see. and the CCG really only matter for revenue and if they can argue with the NCAA for a 13th game for all teams that would offset it. but that is all speculation.
if they go divisions they may not be geographic. if you have four perennial powers it makes sense to keep Michigan and Ohio State together and put Nebraska and Penn State together in the other.
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YES! YES! YESSS!
The more I hear of Tom Osborne the more I like him!
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A question for the SEC fans or people from Texas that may know.
Where would TCU be slotted as a potential expansion partner with aTm to the SEC? Above or below UH and Baylor? I know Frank had mentioned them as a good candidate for the Big East, but would the SEC consider them?
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I’m not sure I’m who you are asking for, but the SEC didn’t want Okla. State with OU. Ok. State has a bigger stadium in football and basketball, and is a medium sized public university.
Given your list, though, I’d put Houston (State University), than TCU, and Baylor last.
But I would doubt the SEC would take any of them. I think Missouri would be a head of all these.
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I guess my question is why Ok State, UHouston, and Baylor are not acceptable to the SEC. Is it academics, lack of football brand, minimal fan interest, etc.
I think it is clear that the Big Ten’s priorities are academics first, football brand second, followed by TV market. What are the priorities for the SEC?
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I would GUESS: Football Passion and amount of fans (which you can measure some what by football stadium size).
With Expansion I would also assume it would be domination of fans in NEW tv Markets. In other words, OU but not OSU…UofTexas…not Baylor.
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Gumbynuts – the priorities for the SEC are:
1. National football brands/supportive fan bases/passion – All three make for good TV. Good TV means CBS/ESPN renegotiate their contracts in order to pay for expansion. If the expansion candidates don’t “move the needle” the SEC doesn’t expand.
2. Geography/Cultural similarity/Team player – Like the Big Ten, the SEC is a close-knit group that gets along, except when playing each other.
3. Academics – Don’t laugh too hard Big Ten fans. The SEC schools are improving and have placed an more of an emphasis on academics. The SEC has established the SEC Academic Consortium. Will it ever rival the CIC? No, but the SEC is trying. That said, Tier 3 schools are most likely non-starters as candidates for expansion.
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@Alan
Thanks. Makes me wonder who the SEC would want if they can’t crack the ACC. Would they stay at 13 (with aTm) and hope the Big Ten breaks up the ACC.
It will be interesting to see if academic perceptions change if the Pac-10 adds OU, OSU, and Tech while the SEC finishes its expansion without adding any Tier 3 schools.
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TCU isn’t even 3rd in DFW (TT). Maybe not even 4th (OU or SMU). Baylor has outdrawn them in fb 11 of the 14 years since the SWC dissolved. TCU in the SEC would make Baylor look like a superstar. I think TCU understands that. I would guess the SEC does.
UH is like USF. Tremendous potential. But why does the SEC take someone with potential when they have a Missouri or Kansas or ACC schools? They don’t. BE might. SEC won’t.
Talk radio is Houston was discussing UH replacing A&M in P10. One thought maybe, other thought it was extreme long shot. I don’t see UH in any of the Big 4.
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Here’s a division scenario from the Plain Dealer:
http://www.cleveland.com/buckeyeblog/index.ssf/2010/06/big_ten_expansion_details_how.html
I love it, the Black and Blue divisions!
Big Ten Black
Ohio State
Michigan
Wisconsin
Michigan State
Purdue
Indiana
Big Ten Blue
Nebraska
Penn State
Iowa
Minnesota
Illinois
Northwestern
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I’m OK with that just as long as the PSU OSU game is preservered as an anual game.
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This is so close to the natural geographic divisions that I don’t see what the point would be. Is Penn St. really that much better than Wisconsin that you force the two teams to lose all of their natural rivalries and have to travel much farther than any of the other 10 teams?
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Awesome, Wisconsin borders four schools and we are in the same division as none of them!
Another clear snub is that by switching only Wisconsin and Penn State from the EAST/WEST structure, they’re saying Wisconsin is too weak to hold down the division with Nebraska and Iowa.
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I am in large favor of no divisions. Divisions are divisive in more ways than one. What we do now is cool if the top 2 finishers play each other at the end of the year. Just get the rule changed. THe NCAA has to recognize that this is an issue. Look at the fallout/carnage going on.
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Ya know, if I were Texas Gov Perry, I’d broker a deal for aTm to go to the SEC but only if it takes Baylor, and TX to the P16 but they have to take TT and UH. UH is a better school than TT, so they should be (grudgingly) acceptable. Buy off TX and aTm with future legislative funding commitments to get it done. Gets the state’s 2 Tier One target schools into safety and solves the Baylor political problem. Bay may not have as much clout now, but they could still cause problems down the road.
If that falls through, then TX and aTm to the B10+. That would leave enough B12 schools that it probably survives with a BCS bid, even if OU leaves. TCU and UH would have a shot as replacements, especially if it goes to 16.
I don’t expect either to happen, but both are still possible.
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BTW, here’s more reason Baylor is probably in trouble. The guv, state senate, and house are GOP (barely, given its self-defeating speaker.) However Waco is the home of Rep. Jim Dunnam, a Dem and by far the biggest a-hole in the statehouse. Waco’s rep in the US Congress is Chet Edwards, another Dem that really irks the state GOP because he keeps getting elected in a demographically GOP district by pretending to be conservative at home and voting differently in DC. The TX GOP doesn’t just oppose them, they despise them. Since they’d pound their chest and claim credit if Baylor gets included, there is little reason for the gov to push for them.
In contrast, TT’s territory is mostly GOP, and facing an election in Nov. the gov would prefer to not be tarnished as interfering in expansion.
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At this point, does Delany take a look at adding one star basketball power to the mix, meaning Syracuse or Kansas? The Pac 10 just got two star football programs in OU and UT, and there is tremendous potential for growth among the existing Pac 10 programs as well. USC may be sliding down a notch, but that should only help UCLA rise up, (and by the way the USC administration responded to its recent sanctions, I’m hard pressed to believe that they will not do everything in its power to get back up on top, unlike Michigan, which seemed very content in just walking away from its basketball program after its sanctions.) Oregon has started to recruit like a perennial top 25 team. Washington is traditionally the Pac 10’s second best program, and should be able to improve. Cal, despite its stringent academics usually has no problems cutting corners, (meaning JUCO transfers,) to compete at least on the football field. In the long term, with the combined recruiting states of California and Texas at its disposal, I think the Pac 16, (if it stays together) will wind up the best or second best football conference most years.
Without UT, the B10 can’t really match what the P16 is doing unless it goes with my much lamented plan, adding Va Tech, Miami, and Georgia Tech, and then picking up either Rutgers or Maryland, assuming Notre Dame passes. Geographically, Va Tech fits relatively well, but may or may not pass the academic litmus test. (No offense, but Nebraska just got a unanimous vote of approval, and you’re telling me Va Tech couldn’t get 8 votes?) Miami and Georgia Tech are geographic outliers, but would fit in academically. For those who bash the U’s academics, it is the highest rated non-AUU school after Notre Dame, Wake Forest, and Boston College. Its research expenditures are over $300,000M and would place it ahead of Indiana in the Big Ten. (Granted Indiana brings up the rear, not sure where Nebraska fits in.)
So provided that the above acquisition fails to materialize, doesn’t it make sense to use up one slot on either Kansas or Syracuse to at the very minimum strengthen the basketball side of the league? Clearly, this is all about football, but that could be addressed with the remaining 3 slots.
In my opinion, if the Va Tech, Ga Tech, Miami, acquisition is not realistic, then I think Syracuse is a lock for an eventual 16 team league. (Would like to see Kansas, but would they go against their word and dump Kansas State?)
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“(Would like to see Kansas, but would they go against their word and dump Kansas State?)”
They’re looking at a pretty lousy menu of conference choices right now. If the Big Ten offered they’d have to be absolutely, 100% loons not to quietly go about the political business of taking Kansas State out behind the barn and shooting them.
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the problem with picking up a basketball school is that much of the revenue potential is close to maxed out and focused on the post season and controlled by the NCAA. the revenue potential particularly for league owned networks is on the football side.
if and when the Texas daydreaming is put to rest I think aome version of the norteast/midatlantic strategy you suggest will play out. it just may take longer.
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If not saying they’re after Kansas, just that Kansas wouldn’t let Kansas State get in the way of a Big Ten invitation, should it come. Kansas State is a historically terrible football program with one good run to their credit. Historically they’re a basketball school. Snyder may have run out of rabbits to pull out of the hat. Kansas State doesn’t have a Boone Pickens, some guy won the lottery, which is how Kansas State got their first artificial surface installed. If Kansas gets a lifeline, they would be wise, and I think they know that, not to let Kansas State hold them back.
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It’s odd, with A&M rumored to not be joining the Pac 10, Kansas is rumored to be one of the two choices to replace them with Utah being the other. When it’s discussed from the Pac 10 side the handcuffs to Kansas State seem to be off. We may be overestimating how closely tied they are.
I don’t see them as purely a great basketball school but more like an Indiana or Illinois that plays good basketball most of the time and a team that has mixed success in football. I would rather put a flyer out on a Kansas than a Syracuse for the Big 10.
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And Kansas State’s true level is probably comparable to what Illinois State is to Illinois. If KU gets a last-minute reprieve, K-State probably gets relegated. They divide too small of a pie.
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Just focus on the mid-atlantic.
I don’t understand what GTech and Miami would add to the league that Maryland and Virginia wouldn’t.
The Mid-atlantic is more of a regional fit, and those institutions fit better.
VaTech is as good an institution as GaTech or any other of the ones that don’t have AAU, so I think it could get the votes. It’s a far better fit in terms of academic research, etc.
I’m personally on board a Maryland/Virginia/VaTech strategy at this point.
All of those are of sound geographic fit; they all do substantial research and are ranked highly in terms of academics. VaTech doesn’t need AAU to be as good an institution as the rest in the Big Ten. It’s one of those you can make an exception to…; clearly not a “Tech problem” kind of a school.
Then for the 16th, I think you give ND one year to join.
If they say no, just go for Rutgers or something else.
The conference still needs geographic fit and a rivalry kind of fit. GaTech and Miami wouldn’t really provide that. Both would be almost random land grabs.
Plus, GaTech doesn’t dominate its market at all. Even if there’s Big Ten alumni in Atlanta, it’s 90+% SEC land.
I’d say dominating Virginia with both UVA and VaTech is a stronger idea. Plus, it gets a lot more games for schools in the mid-atlantic region which is another strong area for recruiting. That would get you 12 games for Big Ten teams in the Maryland/Virginia area…
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zeek,
we are on the same page.
🙂
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Er, I didn’t mean to imply that VaTech was a better fit academically than GTech.
I just meant to say it’s a sound fit.
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i understood
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I wouldn’t be opposed to Virginia, but I have long felt that the ACC old guard, (Maryland, UVA, North Carolina, Duke, Wake Forest, and NC State) would be unmovable, no matter how much money you throw their way. Even if the ACC collapses somewhere down the line, I still feel that those 6 would prefer to stick together and add a few Big East programs for basketball strength, than to go separate ways.
I also was shocked to find out that the Cavaliers have a historical winning percentage of .534 on the gridiron and the majority of that is against the ACC pre-Florida State. From a football standpoint, I think Virginia would be a mistake.
Nebraska was able to overcome the small population / TV market angle by bringing a historically successful football program, heck the most successful football program in the past 50 years, to the table.
Basically, I don’t know if there is a program that does less with more than Virginia. Also, the problem with taking Virginia and Maryland, but not Va Tech, is that Delany pretty much gift wraps the Hokies for the SEC. Va Tech is the next closest thing to a football power that is within reasonable reach of the Big Ten. Blacksburg is about a 5.5 hour drive from Columbus, and about a 6.5 hour drive from State College.
I like that fact that the UVA, Va Tech, UMD, triple play gets the B10 12 games a year in the Maryland / Virginia area, but I think getting a presence in the rapidly growing Atlanta and South Florida regions would be better long term.
I realize Ga Tech is second fiddle to Georgia, but I think that’s one reason why Ga Tech would be open to the move. It would give Ga Tech a different pitch to potential recruits, as opposed to having to sell a recruit on the basketball oriented ACC or the football oriented SEC.
Also, the SEC could snap up Miami at any moment if it desires, so the B10 would be wise to at least take a look. You can can say the U’s fan base is apathetic, but as history has shown us, all it takes is decent coach for the U to become dominant once again. A top 10 Miami program playing games against B10 competition will elevate the rest of the league in more ways than an increased presence in Virginia would.
Plus, I think if you add Miami and Georgia Tech, you may get Notre Dame interested.
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Er, my argument was to take all three of Maryland/Va/VaTech.
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And my main point of why we shouldn’t venture into the SEC footprint other than for UF/UGa (LOL at that ever happening) is because that’s all SEC region. They don’t really care as much about the ACC in that region other than in parts of Florida when FSU and Miami are doing well…
Maryland/Virginia (with all 3 schools including VaTech) are ACC states but the ACC doesn’t really have a hold on the attention of the population. I think it’s a better idea for the Big Ten to try to make them into Big Ten states than to venture into Georgia and Florida without the flagship institutions there…
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Maryland and UVA will dominate the B10 — the B10 basement that is.
Last place teams rarely light up the ratings.
This week on the BTN, watch Ohio State pummel Virgnia. Will the Buckeyes score 100 points? Call your local cable operator and tell them you want your BTN!
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Wouldn’t Maryland strengthen the basketball side of the league? It’s won national titles in both men’s and women’s hoops over the past decade, and while it tends to be obscured a bit by the two blue lights in the Research Triangle, in most other conferences it would be no worse than the #2 program.
Nothing against Syracuse, which I could see as a Big Ten #16 alongside Maryland, Rutgers and Virginia if Notre Dame said no and the Big Ten decided to go with SU over Vanderbilt.
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I feel for you Tom. Seeing as how the original idea of expansion was to build a national conference by adding teams that could capitalize on the population shift, it would seem Delany would consider some teams in the south. Miami, as you said a a gem, as is Georgia Tech. Way too much obsession with the Big Ten ‘footprint’, which I assumed we would be trying to expand.
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Virginia Tech would never happen. They are not an AAU university. On the front of the Big Ten web page, the Big Ten states they are the only conference that has every institution in the AAU.
The AAU is the gold standard to the presidents of the Big Ten.
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When Notre Dame joins (if ever), the AAU requirement will be out the window.
So let’s be careful on how certain we are of anything.
If Texas Tech had been as strong as Virginia Tech academically, there would have been no “Tech problem”.
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Without going back and listening to it all, Delany himself made clear in his remarks yesterday that AAU was not a deal breaker.
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That’s why I think Virginia Tech is one of the underrated guesses.
VaTech is the closest school with an athletics program that would match the Big Ten and bring new markets as well as be an academic fit (minus AAU, but everywhere else it fits perfectly)…
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It’s a deal breaker for anyone not named ND. I would bet the house on this.
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Here is the rule to follow: every rule is sacrosanct until it isn’t. AAU membership is critical until it isn’t. When isn’t it — when it is in the best financial interest of the Big Ten — is VT in this category — I don’t know. But I do know that the presidents of the Big Ten (at least at my institution) treat “rules” as mere suggestions.
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FWIW,
TCU and Texas are playing right now in baseball for a shot to advance.
It would be interesting if any Texas bigwigs are there, or are they hunkered down getting ready for super tuesday?
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ps.. the game is in austin, so it is not like the UT bigwigs have far to travel.
🙂
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Dodds is at the UT vs TCU game in a suite….
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5279373
from ESPN
“Dodds spoke outside of his stadium suite before Saturday’s Texas-TCU baseball game.”
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ESPN .. right now.. showing Dodds, Powers, UT Director of womens sports and others all together with Mack Brown all texting and talking to each other (ALL are at the UT vs TCU game together).
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I’m sure UT will get a simply wonderful reception from the Omaha faithful should it reach the College World Series. Then again, these particular Longhorns are wearing baseball helmets, not football ones, so they really can’t be held responsible for what went down in Arlington, Tex. last December.
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From everyone I have heard who has been there, UNL really does have the best fans in the country in their stadium. TX got ovation after ending their long home winning streak in ’98. Don’t think Omaha will be any problem. Great fans there. TCU is the problem right now.
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No concerns. That’s not how we roll.
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Dodds was there yesterday.
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Actually there is a definite answer to your question:
http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/texas-AD-says-school-is-looking-at-all-options-on-realignment-061210
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Guys, I really think Texas was a unique situation in terms of being willing to go for a school that far outside of the footprint. (One other would be Florida, but that’s a waste of time to even discuss).
The focus should be on what kind of strategy maximizes the payoff in the future and still adds to the competitive nature of the Big Ten, while also being of sound geographic and cultural fit. Outside of the current Big Ten, that means the northeast or the mid-atlantic. But the northeast doesn’t really have additions outside of Pitt/Rutgers that make sense on an institutional level (big research dollars/AAU, etc.)
The schools which seem to have geographic, competitive, and athletic fit are Pitt and VaTech. I think Pitt being in the footprint screws them over unless the Big Ten presidents are willing to look past that.
We’re not going to be in the business of making random land grabs too far outside the region and so the most fertile area is the mid-atlantic region. That gets you to the sunbelt and it gets you a lot of games in that region if you take up to 3 schools.
I don’t think any of us think UNC is going anywhere without it’s troupe of Duke/NC St., and we’d have to take on quite a few schools to get there (probably up to Big 20-territory…).
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I’m interested in how Virginia, Syracuse and Rutgers add to the competitive nature of the Big Ten? The fact that Rutgers is one of the country’s oldest colleges in one of its biggest markets and still is basically unknown outside its immediate region tells me NY or NJ aren’t interested.
You can see UVA from my brother’s backyard and it’s a great school, but outside of Thomas Jefferson no one wants to watch them play football or anything else. And PLEASE don’t tell me that it’s their academics that makes them irresistible. If that were you case we could do much better.
And PLEASE stop denying that the entire reason for expansion was the Big Ten Network. Everyone (including Delany) admitted this in the beginning, when Texas and ND were front and center. Now that the ripest fruit has been plucked out from under us, we’re desperate to expand for expansion’s sake by taking low wattage schools that we would have never considered when this process started.
For the Big Ten to remain competitive we MUST attract attention, money and recruits. The Pac Ten knows this and has acted accordingly. They win.
Sorry, but the Ivy League already exists, we need high-wattage adds to succeed in the marketplace or we’re destined for number three status. This expansion happens only once and we need to think big.
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you take away places for ND to hide.
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But what if the BE survives?
I think ND is destined for the BT one way or another in the next few years, I’d rather not partake in a scorched earth policy if it means we end up with two or three less mediocre BE schools.
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My point is to focus on the Big Ten Network as well as recruiting and fit in terms of states that aren’t in the SEC footprint (where Big Ten football will never get focus).
I just happen to think that NJ/Va/Maryland/NC are the best bets.
I don’t think the Big Ten really has a chance to crack the SEC’s hold on Georgia or Florida regardless of what schools we take other than UGa/UF.
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The Big Ten needs to think big.
True, but one must consider what thinking big means.
Academics matter more than current state of athletics in the long run. Institutional fit with the Big Ten and good research/academics will carry the day.
Does anybody here seriously think that the next 50 years of football success for any school is easily predicted? Who has a better run over the next fifty years? Iowa or Maryland? Why?
Academics and research is much easier to predict — the great school are likely to remain great because there are all sorts of network effects. Athletics has similar feedback (recruits are more interested in schools that have recent success to point too and stand a better chance of winning a championship) but its is more prone to disruption. The proof is the impact a good/poor coach can make on a school’s success. If schools have access to roughly the same resources then it is possible for any school to improve in the long run with the right moves. The Big Ten revenue sharing model makes that possible: this is more like the NFL rather than MLB where the Yankees will always enjoy an enormous advantage because of the difference in resources.
So I reject this entire line of reasoning that says the motivation for selecting expansion candidates depends on the current state of athletic ‘product’. The current state of academic product matters more more if there is institutional fit.
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Forgot to add:
UVa and UMd would be home run additions. If they can be added that is reason enough to expand to 14. Rutgers and Pitt are likewise excellent additions independently of athletics.
Question: How is the SEC different than the Big Ten? (hint: their idea of ‘product’ is different than the Big Ten idea of ‘product’. The SEC and Big Ten brands are distinct — guess which brand I respect).
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michael,
you are preaching to the choir.
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The SEC laughs at your ‘respect’ argument as they rampage across the college football landscape.
How about an all “respect” conference: Duke, Vandy, UVA, Maryland, Northwestern, Stanford, and Wake Forest. Now there’s some great football.
How about a “Respect” Cable Channel broadcasting the latest riveting physics lecture at Virginia?
As for predictions, here’s one: Duke and Vandy will never win a football NC, in fact neither will ever will their conference (50+ years of futility — I’d call that a trend). Maryland will never win the B10 (if they get there). Care to disagree?
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The Big Ten laughs at the SEC as the latter’s graduates try to compete for jobs outside of the Confederacy.
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And you are all working for the Ivy League.
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Pensfan
Duke has won an ACC fb championship-as recently as 1989. Had a hot young coach named Steve Spurrier.
If NW has won or shared 3 B10 titles in the last 15 years, Duke could win the ACC.
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Bingo. The SEC can keep snapping necks, the B10 will keep cashin checks!
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Yeah, I’m being pedantic on this, but Madison is tied with Harvard for the most number of undergrads who are CEOs of S&P 500 companies and 8th for number of MBAs heading S&P 500 cos. Chomp on that SEC.
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Bullet —
My bad re Duke.
Northwestern would dominate the Respect Conference. But I would rather watch Florida play Texas.
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@PensfaninLAexile
I think part of the reason only football ‘product’ matters so much to many college sports fans is that broadcasting and everything surrounding the sports supports the focus only on the strengths and weaknesses of the athletic teams involved. That, I think is based on a decent sense of respect for the student athletes (and I mean that without irony — these are good kids working hard to achieve athletically and in the classroom) involved.
(The following is partially snark so I apologize in advance.)
That said, I cannot help but wonder if citizens/viewers would not benefit if the sports broadcasts also talked about the quality of the schools involved. You know, something like:
Alabama is rated #1 in the AP college football poll and #242 in the ARWU world research rankings. Today their opponent is Vanderbilt (unrated in the AP, #36 in the world research rankings) [I made up the numbers above — too lazy to look them up right now.]
Now if that happened at the beginning of every game broadcast, maybe the fans of some great football brand schools might just say — “Damn we are getting stomped in academics, what are we doing to get better?!”.
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You do a great job on this blog ZEEK and are very thoughtful, but I just don’t buy your logic. Is Washington state and Oregon in Austin’s footprint? Last I checked Austin is as close to several Big Ten schools as Pac 10 schools.
Maybe they never had any interest in coming to the Big Ten, but if it truly was the addition of Texas Tech that kept them out, that’s a shame.
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No, Austin is not in the Pac-10’s footprint either.
BUT…the others schools are in Texas’s footprint, so Texas is not all alone.
Would the Big 10 take OU, Ok.St, Tech, and A&M all in a package? the answer is of course NO. UT would have been on an island with A&M
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And in my world Texas-Tech and Nebraska.
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Look at what Daniel’s posted.
Texas is going to the Pac-16 because they made them a new SouthWest Conference (Pac-16 East).
We were only going to take Texas/A&M. They would have been two outposts far away from the Big Ten, and they weren’t interested in that situation over the Pac-16 approach.
I think we need to focus on the mid-atlantic because that’s a strong growth region, and because the ACC doesn’t do a good job of getting eyeballs on TVs. The NC schools are happy in their fiefdom and probably wouldn’t go anywhere.
Maryland is a bit of a geographic outlier to the north, and the Va/VaTech situation is interesting over the amount of bridge burning that went on between Va and NC/Duke (who were opposed to expansion), etc.
Perhaps, there’s no chance at grabbing Maryland/Va/VaTech, but those schools seem to do the best job of getting us games in better recruiting areas, as well as getting a football brand in VaTech that’s much stronger than any other football brand left out there other than Pitt I guess?
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It’s ironic that the Big12 will be (and the ACC may be) destroyed while the BE and MWC may get stronger because the BE & MWC have a bunch of schools with weak followings.
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richard,
that was my premise in the “scraps” conversation awhile back.
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I think its more likely that the ACC winds up raiding the BigEast. the split between basketball only and dual sport schools in the Big East could wind up being a fatal flaw that prevents them from assembling a critical mass for football. add more dual sports schools and basketball becomes unwieldy. ACC can pick of the good footbal programs.
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In the BE, it has long be recognized that running two conferences (one BB one FB) is a fundamental problem. The BB side has always run the show and was the root cause of the success of the ACC raid and the dismal TV contracts and bowl tie-ins. BE decisions always favor the BB schools. The current actions of the BE are simply a continuation of this history. Even if the BE wanted to expand with Big XII schools BB is simultaneously the constraint and the motivation.
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Assuming that Texas is off the table, my ideal situation would be to add ND, Maryland, Rutgers, and one of Syracuse/Pitt (I prefer Syracuse). If that were to happen I could see the Big Ten doing something different then divisions and have a pod system instead. Teams would have a protected “rival” in each other pod. Each year, teams would play a 9 game schedule: 3 games against the other teams in their pod, 3 games against their rivals, and 3 games against the other members of 1 other pod which would rotate each year. The top two teams in the standings play in the conference championship game.
Pods:
East – Penn St., Maryland, Rutgers, Syracuse
North – Ohio St., Michigan, Michigan St., Notre Dame
South – Purdue, Indiana, Illinois, Northwestern
West – Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Nebraska
Rivals:
PSU – OSU, Ill, Iowa
MD – MSU, Ind, UW
RU – Mich, NW, Minn
SU – ND, PU, Neb
OSU – PSU, Ill, Iowa
Mich – RU, NW, Minn
MSU – MD, Ind, UW
ND – SU, PU, Neb
PU – SU, ND, Neb
Ind – MD, MSU, UW
Ill – PSU, OSU, Iowa
NW – RU, Mich, Minn
UW – MD, MSU, Ind
Minn – RU, Mich, NW
Iowa – PSU, OSU, Ill
Neb. – SU, ND, PU
Obviously the potential rivalries are up for debate but I think this could work.
Thoughts?
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New thought thanks to vincent,
I think the SEC play is A&M and Va Tech
a) you get schools that most consider lemons and make lemonade (see SEC strategy in last expansion).
b) you enter TX and VA markets.
c) You have a built in rivalry from day 1!
as vincent correctly pointed out Va Tech AND A&M are COC (think Army vs Navy type game) as they are the only 2 such schools in the USA.
SEC is now at 14 and can wait to pick off 2 teams later on.
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ps.. it means the Big 10 can now pick off MD & UVA
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from mrsec….
“U.S. Rep. Joe Barton, a Republican from Ennis and a proud graduate of Texas A&M, said he hopes the Aggies go to the Southeast Conference if the Big 12 can’t be saved.
“As an athletic conference, the SEC is one of the strongest,” Ennis said during a brief interview at the state Republican convention in Dallas. “Cultural issues are pretty similar, the south and southwest are pretty similar. And A&M has always had a rivalry with LSU and Arkansas and, to a lesser extent, Alabama. So I think it will just be a good fit.”
link here..
http://www.mrsec.com/
humm.. are we looking at UT and A&M breaking up?
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But didn’t the Va. politicians make the ACC take VA. Tech when the ACC was raiding the BE 5-6 yrs ago? Would they just let ’em walk away now w/o UVa.?
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indy,
that is what vincent and I have been discussing, VT goes to the SEC and UVA goes to the Big 10. It takes care of the problem with twins.
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I talked about my last prediction which was Kansas and K State would be the next to move and I still think that rings true. For what its worth here are my next set of “optimal” moves given the players.
The one thing I don’t think Delany expected was how fast the B12 would implode on itself (thinking it would take 1 – 2 years not a week). He really didn’t understand the powder keg the conference was and given the opportunity would have gone back after the BE first instead of trying to for the B12. In doing so he left the BE an out and thus ND. Taking the Big 12 North 4.
Abbreviated Version:
Big 12 North 4 to Big East before Tuesday
Big 10 holds until Tuesday and UT decision
Big 10 shut out of the rest of the Big East but may try to shop anyway with the B12N4 in the league.
UT, OU, OSU, CO, and (Utah/TCU/UH) to Pac-16
aTm to SEC
Baylor to MWC if TCU leaves for Pac-16 / Conference USA if TCU stays in MWC / Baylor to SEC if aTm feels like it needs political cover
ND stays independent but aligns other sports with the ACC or BE if they will still let them.
Unknowns:
Who would be the SEC 2nd?
Outcome:
We settle for a few months after this before B10 goes trawling again.
Long Version
No one needs/wants to move before Tuesday except for possibly two actors The Big 12 North 4 (B12N4) and Big East.
Delany and B10 cannot move prior to a Texas decision so they must wait. Big East once the Texas decision is made will have to defend itself from B10. Even if a back-door ND ultimatum/do not recruit my schools was made would you trust Delany to leave your schools alone? I will point you to call he made to Beebe after they invited Neb for that answer.
Delany knows he will not get the B12 schools now, but must see the course. Why? Neb kinda through a grenade back at Austin in last night’s press conference saying “so long and thanks for the fish, but we hate your guts”. If you asked Delany if he wanted Neb to make those comments he would have emphatically said no, but that genie is already out. While it certainly isn’t enough to back UT off, it will give it pause and one more Pac-16 point.
So we now have Pac-16 with UT and may or may not have aTm. So let’s catch up with the story.
Kansas and K-State are in tight squeeze while Mizz and ISU are screwed at the moment. I think the Pac 10 would invite Kansas in a heartbeat to join but they will be unable to get K-State with them + you still have to wait to see what happens to aTm. If aTm isn’t there and the BE is toast – HELLO MWC. Not exactly appealing for two of the top B-ball schools in the country.
So we have the BE that must protect its schools and K and K-State (Mizz and ISU) who really want a dance partner. The smart move is for BE to move on the B12 N4 before Tuesday. This shores up the BE conference with some additional B-Ball power and even if the BE gets raided they don’t completely die.
Assume the B12N4 goto BE. BE is now a player and B10 now has a much tougher time prying anyone out and must go shopping elsewhere.
Next move: aTm to SEC, B12S-Baylor to Pac-16.
The longer this drags out the more I believe aTm will take the SEC (official/non-official) invite. Its the smart play regardless of what UT raises hell about. aTm would have liked to stay B12, but UT made sure that this thing got blown to kingdom come. aTm is probably looking for a change and only the level of competition is giving it pause. Gene Stallings is really out there right now trumpeting the SEC flag. His contacts gets them to the SEC VERY easy.
If aTm leaves for the SEC but is afraid of retribution from UT then pulling Baylor along may be an option. I still don’t think the SEC would take that, but it may be the only option to get into Texas…which really they don’t need but would like to have.
Baylor: Odd man out and really only one good out.
Not going to the Pac-16. Cal-Berkely and the invitation to Colorado kinda of made that abundantly clear they are unwanted.
Not to MWC with TCU there. Lots of talk in Horned Frog land about and FU payback to Baylor and blocking admin. If TCU were to leave for Pac-16 then Baylor is here.
Most likely: By default, Conf USA
Long shot: SEC with aTm but only if UT is getting uppidity and they feel they need political protection bringing Baylor along creates an uneasy peace between the two schools and satisfies most everyone involved.
Notre Dame: Given all this, without the BE imploding Notre Dame lives to fight another day as an independent but the number outs are becoming fewer and far between. Perhaps 1 – 2 years down the road they join the B10 but given the above scenarios no one will be in a hurry.
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I think it was posted here that the Mo board of regents is meeting Sunday.
I am guessing that they are considering joining the SEC with A&M.
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boilerfan,
do you have a link?
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fwiw duff I saw that yesterdayor late Thursday as well. no real indication what the specifcs are.
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Sorry I didn’t save the link. The story said the board would vote to make it a closed session. It didn’t state what would be discussed. I am assuming with everything going on that it must be conference allignment.
It is interesting that the Mountain West is under consideration. When I read the article I was thinking SEC because A&M seems to be looking for a partner.
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BTW..
this on ESPN….
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5279018
Missouri to Mountain West
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I don’t think its in the B12 North 4’s interest to act that quickly though. If they stay, they could be getting millions in buy-outs and could probably invite who they want from the Big East and Mountain West. Now if the conference is dissolved and they aren’t getting the buyout money, that’s a horse of a different color.
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strongly disagree. every conference is going to try and lock up its best deal. a lot of spots are going to go off the board. it would be very short sighted to hold off just to try and get a big one year pay day and then in a year finding yourself forced to accept a much lower conference that will hamstring your athletics for decades to come.
and if their down to 4 they lose their automatic qulaifier status and the conference beomes toxic. no one is going to jump from the Mountain West when they are on the verge of BCS status to a conference that is going to have to play together for 5 years to get back to square one.
if there are 4 left grab the first life raft you see.
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Missouri really wants to join the Big Ten, and I doubt they’ll move until they know for sure the BT isn’t interested. I don’t think Kansas and KSU will jump to a Big East that might be sinking, not when other options might open up for them once the dust clears. And the SEC probably isn’t in a hurry to nab Missouri, when better candidates might be available later. Major moves take time to plan, and I doubt that anyone acts hastily in this. I think everyone will wait on Texas, and then on what the BT does.
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Mizz is not going to the B10. And where would Kansas and KSU go? SEC is not going that far north. ACC is probably out of the question. Its Kansas to Pac 16 IF aTm doesn’t go OR MWC for both. Also if Pac16 did happen, you have to deal with fall out of K-State to the MWC or Conf USA…ask the state of Iowa how thats working out. The only way to keep the two Kansas together is to go to the BE and hope theat their leverage either it keeps the conf together or at least sustains in light of a mass defection to B10.
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There is no action by the BE that would make Pitt or Rutgers less inclined to accept a Big Ten bid. If ND, Kansas, KSU, IaSt etc. joined tomorrow it would not matter. It is a no brainer, if a Big Ten invite is made they will accept
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Hangtime – I can’t see the SEC taking Baylor unless UTx is involved. If A&M goes to the SEC, which I still have strong doubts about that, the SEC would most likely only go to 14, and look to the East for #14. I think FSU is the best choice, VA Tech would work too.
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@Alan I know the SEC has talked about options for renegotiating TV contracts if they go into expansion mode. I thought I heard UTx was considered a key to make that happen. I have also heard the SEC would consider expanding to protect its brand and turf, even if it meant smaller pieces of the TV pie to pass around.
Do you have any feel for the mix of expansion candidates needed to reopen the TV contracts? With and without UTx?
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Fait – that’s why I think national brands trumps new markets. CBS broadcasts the SEC nationally, not regionally. Almost all of the SEC’s games are on an ESPN channel, or on the nationally syndicated ESPN-produced SEC Network. UTx, OU, FSU and Miami have national followings and draw viewers no matter who they play. Any of those teams are home runs. VA Tech has national appeal when playing well-known teams (triple). A&M is from a big state and has interesting traditions (triple).
I feel like the SEC needs at least one home run or two triples to open up negotiations. Clemson & GA Tech are standup doubles if the SEC goes to 16. Okla St & TTech are purely fillers that would only be considered if UTx is in the mix. I doubt Mizzou is on the SEC’s radar. I doubt any of the North Carolina schools are in play at this time.
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Thanks for the insight. It helps a lot to understand the dynamics. The SEC and the Big Ten are playing a similar game… but with different standards for fit (eg., nat’l ratings vs. footprint). Neither is likely to take a Pac-16 sausage when their are prime cuts of meat on the shelf.
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Just got home from work and being out of town, just wanted to say I am happy to see Nebraska in the Big Ten. Even if texas and co end up in the Pac-10 and the aggies go off to “develop” without big brother in the SEC I believe we ended up with a great school that will fit in perfectly and add a lot of tradition to our hollowed ranks. We wont have any baggage to deal with unlike the often coveted prima donnas (read UT and ND) and we will have added a powerhouse and a reson for me to visit some family in nebraska more often 🙂
Seriously folks we should be happy where we are standing with the 12 current members. Yes even I am kind of fond of thinking we could be the envy of the nation by adding ND or a TU with the mix, but when we all look at this we should see that we ened up with a great deal and have no real reason to worry about our future. I just dont buy into the whole demographics side of the arguement. Every state grew… the whole we are the rust belt thing is getting old. From 1990 to 2000 my state Illinois grew 8.6%, Ohio grew 4.7%, Penn grew 3.4%, Michigan grew by 6.9% even! Wisconsin 9.6% …. yea they may not seem like HUGE growth but you have to imagine they are all large states! Sure Texas and Flordia continue to grow like a cancer but do you honestly believe it will keep going this way for forever? How many millions of people do we need to be “competitive”
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Oh, I think we’d all be fine staying pat with this 12. This 12 works great for everything and we finally get a CCG which will keep the Big Ten relevant at the end of the season.
But there are still opportunities out there. Delany and co. are smart enough to not waste any of the remaining 4 slots. No doubt one is reserved for ND.
But we should talk about the other 3.
We need TV markets and recruiting grounds. That means some combination of NJ/Md/Va/NC have to be the targets.
Delany is the opposite of the kind of person who would move in haste. But if he sees something happening, then he’ll move.
Right now, the ACC is entirely stable and the Pac-10/SEC are fighting over A&M.
Depending on how that works out, there may be opportunities that open again like Nebraska…
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I wish there was a source I could cite that broke down our teams in the Big Ten and showed a state by state comparison of the demographics of our athletic programs. Maybe I can get one of my friends in statistics to do a paper on such a subject 🙂
I kind of get tired of all the talk when sometimes I just want to see cold hard facts.
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this might be a decent starting point
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ten_Conference
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it is a nice site, but I found an easier path. I just google the university name and 2010 roster, and just count them myself… I will post each and every Big Ten teams breakdown in the future god willing lol
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zeek,
again we are in agreement (especially your markets and recruiting grounds).
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Ok I can see the markets angle but recruting may still be in the air till we look and see what the demographics of the Big Ten is really.
I did a quick check of the 2010 FIghting Illini roster and lone and behold there are 30 PLAYERS south of the Mason Dixie line ( a few from Maryland)
There is a total of 100 or 101 players on the roster (been drinking)
30 diveded by 101 = 0.297times 100 and you get 29.7% Not a bad number.
Source: http://www.fightingillini.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ill-m-footbl-mtt.html
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After the Big 12 is done, the focus will shift to the east coast with the Big East and ACC.
The schools of interest would be Rutgers and Syracuse of the Big East and Maryland, Virginia and Georgia Tech of the ACC.
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This is still a big if in my book because we still dont know 100% if the Big12 is really down and out. As long as members want to perserve the confrence and there is a chance Cal/Stanford raise thier nose to the likes of the Oklahomas and Tech. It takes just one no vote to kill any deal.
Does anyone have any quotes about how those universities feel about expansion. Anything from the presidents and such?
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I agree with you.
We could still get Texas, Texas A&M as well as Missouri. Not likely but still possible. If that all came down, we would be sitting at 15. And then going east would not be likely.
Just a matter of how the Big 12 fallout settles.
It is a what if, what if A&M goes to the SEc, what if Texas and X go to the Pac 10. Does the Pac 10 sit at 11 or what.
This coming week will setup whether this slows down or speeds up.
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http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2010/06/12/barton_wants_am_in_sec_instead.html
(US Rep) Barton wants A&M in SEC instead of Pac-10
“…And A&M has always had a rivalry with LSU and Arkansas and, to a lesser extent, Alabama. So I think it will just be a good fit…”
…Barton said he thinks there’s “a good possibility” that A&M will go to the SEC. Asked whether he is bothered by the idea of Texas and A&M in separate conferences, he said “not a bit,” although he later said he hopes the two schools will play non-conference games.
“If you’re really going to break it up, I prefer the Southeast Conference,” Barton said…
..In recent years, Barton has introduced legislation that would push college football toward a playoff system and away from the current Bowl Championship Series.
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Yes him and that guy from Utah who I cant seem to remember wants a playoff system. Sure I would like one as well but I sure as hell dont want our Government wasting time debating this issue when there is so much more going on in the world!
Ok there are 32 represenatives from texas and one wants A&M to go to the SEC and has an opinion. SO that makes up what % of the total texas legislature? (US house of reps) 3.125% ( HEY i am not math wiz and have had a few cold ones)
I just wish that it could have come from a more important person is all, I just dont see what 1 rep says as being important in the least.
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Illini,
would be interesting to see how it breaks down out of those 32, and their 2 senators. More important would be a breakdown of the A&M board of regents! So far we only know Stallings is on board with the SEC jump.
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Joe Barton is a member of Congress – not the Texas Legislature. He’s also ranking member of the House Commerce Committee, which would likely examine any anti-trust issues involving college athletics. He also happens to be a graduate of Texas A&M and has a lot of influence within the Texas congressional delegation – at least on the Republican side.
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DallasHusker – Rep. Barton is also the d-bag that has continuously called for government intervention to force a playoff system. Whatever people may think about the BCS, the one system that’s guaranteed to be worse than the BCS is whatever Congress comes up with.
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frank,
thanks for the heads up, where have you been all day? You started this addiction!
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10-4 dude. Congress!
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Orrin Hatch, Utah is the senator you are thinking of. My gut says that Utah will end up in the Pac 10 shortly, but we’ll see.
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that’s the one, good call.
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He is one of the handful of representatives who attended A&M though.
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A&M AD Bill Byrne emailed us in media: “still our choice to keep the 10 B12 schools together if we can.”
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From Dodd (CBSSports.com)
Quote of the day: “This beautiful girl, quite honestly, wasn’t going to be there forever.” — Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany welcoming Nebraska into the league.
“… but skanks like Missouri and Rutgers will always be available.”
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While I am waiting for Super tuesday to come..
just checked the ESPN SEC guy chris low..
http://espn.go.com/blog/sec/post/_/id/11347/texas-am-at-least-eyeing-move-to-sec
He is saying A&M, Va Tech, and MD….
normally I do not read the comments, but some were funny
one guy said the A&M colors would fit the SEC (red)
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ps.. they just inked a 10 year deal to play Arkansas, so if the joined the SEC it would open up a OOC game.
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MD football might as well close up shop if they join the SEC. They’re mediocre in the ACC, they’ll be a smarter Miss. St. in the SEC.
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no way MD joins sec.
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fwiw I saw a post indicating that the Northwestern guy posted on their premium site
“Well guys, I guess there has been a change of heart.”
that may be his concession speech
I can’t verify so take it for what its worth.
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“I was full of $%$# all along, and you guys all gobbled it up”
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as I said earlier I think he was fine on the fact that there were actual talks. that is clearly pretty much been shown. his fault was for being a homer and assuming a win. Brown on the other hand clearly was wrong on lots of details along the way and kept insisting there were no talks and things like that. But he wins because the faction that was feeding him info won the debate within UT and made his prediction come true.
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“Brown on the other hand clearly was wrong on lots of details along the way and kept insisting there wre not talks and things like that. But he wins because the faction that was feeding him info won the debate within UT and made his prediction come true.”
You think Texas to the Pac-10 is a done deal, huh?
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I think it was meant more like, “The Big Ten wasn’t going to gag and sue me, but now they are” At least that’s what is looks like from the subject headings of all the reply’s
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If you want to know what was said, pay for the subscription, but you are reading what you want to read, and Texas is still very much in play.
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Late last night, I posted that the Purple Cat guy was on the verge of being exposed as knowing nothing, and that he would slink away with some sort of “Texas was on the verge, but backed out at the second” BS.
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he was wrong on the outcome but there were other sources that confirmed talks between the Big Ten and Texas. they may have been doomed but they were happening.
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Agreed, but that word went out over multiple sources. The Purple Cat guy had been passing along some scenario that Texas was still on the way to the Big Ten even after every outlet in the world have them Pac 10 bound. That did not seem credible to me, and I figured there would a CYA final post on the way soon.
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valid point. as the story continued to develop it appeared he got full of himself and sought the spotlight. but what the hey, it was fun.
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Saying that Texas and the Big 10 had or were having discussions doesn’t define a scoop, it is something that could be assumed.
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Chip Brown was denying them for a long time. if it could be assumed what does that make Chip Brown’s reporting? he was also denying Colorado to the Pac 10 up until right before they announced their regents would meet the next day. and lots of other sources were saying they were favored over Baylor by the Pac 10
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At least he was more credible than the sorority source.
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¨Well guys, I guess there has been a change of heart.¨ was said in reference to the Big 10 allowing him to post, not in regards to Texas´ interest in the Big 10.
And Texas to anywhere is not a done deal, but the only one who has assumed it is is our good buddy Chip.
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A&M doesn’t have an invite to the SEC.
http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/bohls/entries/2010/06/12/am_doesnt_have.html?cxntfid=blogs_bohl_games
No idea what this means.
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Huh. Kirk Bohls said the same thing about Nebraska and the Big Ten. It’s a scary warning that they’re playing a dangerous game by courting the disfavor of Texas, which impresses nobody but the Longhorn fan that Bohls is catering to. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. A&M knows whether or not they have any shot at the SEC, if they seem unconcerned then once again Bohls and his overseers at Texas are once again misreading the situation.
Maybe should issue another ultimatum.
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semantics. Nebraska and Colorado didn’t have invites either. they were encouraged to apply. there is a bit of Kabuki to the process. everything is informally discussed and no actual invitations go out. when its agreed A&M would apply and it would be settled within a day or two. but until then everyone preserves the ability to say nothing happening here so they don’t get embarassed.
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Bohls is trying to sell newspapers and Brown is trying to sell premium Rivals subscriptions. Their messages don’t have to harmonize, with each other or with previous rumors they’ve put out there. What they are saying does however have to appeal to Longhorn fans who for some strange reason think schools with options are going to pay attention to Texas threats and the view that everything revolves around UT. It’s pathetic, but I suppose it’s how you get long green out of burnt orange.
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ESPN2 trailer…. (watching lacrosse in background)
SEC not inviting FSU, Miami, Ga Tech, and Clemson
SEC overture to A&M does not require UT or OU
TCU will lobby against Boise State (wants KU, K ST, and 3rd team)
Pac 10 comish heading to UT, TT, OU, and OSU to lobby for Pac 10
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vincent,
you may be right about A&M and Va Tech to the SEC.
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“Latest in A&M’s SEC/Pac-10 decision: SEC commissioner Mike Slive in College Station today…more to come”
Billy Liucci runs the Maroon and White Report at Texags.com, so he’s in the loop.
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Imagine that. Quick, somebody get Bohls and Brown to deny it on Twitter, or Longhorn fans might get indigestion.
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EP,
I went back and looked at earlier tweets for BL, his opinion is the more UT pushes, the more A&M wants out.
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Byrne essentially said the Pac 10 wasn’t happening for A&M because of travel concerns for his student-athletes. A lot of people want to pooh-pooh that, based on what I don’t know. Their wishes, maybe. But he was talking to a booster group, not a group of people you want to just flat out lie to.
Texas has enough money to jet their debate team anywhere, in first class style, should they want to. A&M’s AD had to take out a $16M loan, there’s some brouhaha about repayment terms, and people think oh, they’ll just trail along behind Texas to the Pac 10 based on projections that the worst payout conference is really going to cash in. Based on what, compared to SEC money, which, whatever the number may be, is concrete?
Yeah, the SEC has no shot at A&M.
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We’re getting mixed signals on Byrne. He definitely didn’t want to be part of a two team package to join the Pac 10, for the previously stated travel reasons. However, we’re getting some indications that the 6 team deal is looked upon more favorably by him, as travel in that league would probably be no worse than in the SEC. Byrne’s opinion matters, but in the end, the regents will make the decision. For what it’s worth, the fund raising arm of the AD, the Twelfth Man Foundation, has gotton a ton of feedback in favor of the SEC.
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True that 6-team setup alleviates football travel concerns, but football teams are at the top of the list when it comes to that. Men’s BB and non-revenues I suppose it’s how they draw up schedules, but I can’t imagine there aren’t going to be the same kind of problems Byrne talked about, because there will have to be some west coast trips. Hard to generate interest in the new network if you’re playing a reduced version of what you already have and not seeing the other side of conference much at all, even taking into account the Arizona schools getting shipped off to the Big 12 South Division.
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The Big Ten should be ready to pull the trigger on Maryland the minute it looks like VT is going to the SEC. It might be some good extra leverage to that end.
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i agree!
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I really hope we don’t cede VTech.
Just looking at figures like TV ratings and fans in the seats, VTech is the best possible addition to the Big Ten in states that are near the footprint in terms of football value (other than Notre Dame).
Perhaps, the AAU membership thing is that important, but I don’t think so. By any comparable measure, VTech is as good a fit as Nebraska/Indiana/Iowa/Michigan State.
I really don’t think VTech is a “Tech problem” kind of school. I would hope that Delany would go after it if put into play…
That would be a strong enough brand to be worth taking Maryland/Virginia as well…
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Somehow I dont see VT comeing to the BT. I can see Virginia and Maryland more likely. Its been a strong football program the past 20 years over all. but a fit for the Big Ten?
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Dude, VTech is Oklahoma State with a better location and without T. Boone. Athletically, they have had one decent aging coach who will not be around by the time they switch conferences. Academically, it’s by far the second tier school in the state and they don’t have any sort of national impact in this area.
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I think you always have to worry about coaches who have 10+ years at a school. How many college coaching transitions in recent history have gone well? The only time it works is when you get rid of a coach in an effort to get a BETTER coach…. i.e. Meyer to Florida after Zook, Tressel to OSU, Saban to Alabama, Mack Brown to Texas, etc. If you follow an underacheiver, it can work. If you follow a legend, rarely does it work.
The one exception might be Miles at LSU… not sure LSU fans are either.
Meanwhile, we can make a long list of schools that misfired on their post-legend hires.
It does make you worry about Va Tech. Are they a solid program or are they a product of Beamer?
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In addition to thinking like a univ president, how about thinking like a cable TV executive. If you do, you will see why Nebraska was an easy choice and why Rutgers, Maryland, and Virginia are not (esp. MD and UVA).
Everyone on this blog is in love with ‘big markets’ – well the BTN doesn’t exist in a vacuum. For the BTN to get on basic cable, some channel has to get kicked out of the club. Cable operators have learned that once a channel gets on basic and builds audience, the demands for higher fees never stop. Plus, they are facing competition from DirecTV and FioS – the number of cable HH is dropping – higher fees and rates are a problem. In short, if BTN gets on, someone is going to get kicked out.
Also, the big games are on ESPN/ABC. Michigan/tOSU isn’t on the BTN. Fans of Penn State, Michigan, tOSU, Wisconsin will get to see their teams b/c the high value games are on ESPN. The demand for BTN games will be from the superfans – a subset of the alumni base.
Now, consider Maryland.
DC is not a MD town or a UVA town or a VA Tech town – it’s a Redskins town. You think the BTN can sweep in with MD and the olio of B10 alumni? Well, there are a helluva lot more ACC, SEC, BEast, etc. alums. Combine B10 alums with Maryland and you simply don’t have that much. You certainly don’t have enough demand to compete with the demand for “Mad Men” or “The Closer.” Does anyone on this board seriously think that Maryland can kick off AMC, Lifetime, TNT, etc.?
No chance.
Here’s another challenge for the BTN: Comcast-Universal is not going to drop Versus (no matter how lousy it is) – they own it. Same goes for USA, Bravo, E! – and so on. The BTN is going to have to show some seriously strong ratings and demand for it to make it to basic and kick out an incumbent channel.
What’s likely to happen if Maryland gets the nod (or Rutgers/UVA, etc.) is that the cable operators will adopt a wait-and-see approach. Now the onus is on the Terps to make people want to watch them.
As I posted earlier, since the ACC beefed up, the Terps have pretty weak in the second weakest BCS conference. Last year was a catastrophe. The year before they powered their way to the Blue Rug Bowl in Boise – bet that had all of DC riveted. Maryland cannot and will not be able to compete in the B10. Getting creamed by tOSU, Penn State, and Wisconsin is not a recipe for ratings.
For anyone wondering why an investment bank and a bunch of consultants need to be brought in – the reason is b/c the analysis for teams like Maryland is complicated by these competitive factors. If it wasn’t, some flunky accountant in Park Ridge could have done what Patrick did on a legal pad (hmmm… 2.5 million cable HH times .70 per HH times 51% – what a no brainer!)
The BTN’s consultants are looking at the cable landscape, talking to Comcast and Time Warner and trying to figure out how they squeeze on basic cable and who the BTN can squeeze off. Likely, the investment bankers came back and told Delaney that it will depend on the ratings BTN can get. Which leads us to product. If the product stinks, no one is going to watch and you will have the BTN in 10 cents per month sports tier hell.
Nebraska was easy from that standpoint. The state may be small, but the BTN will be on everywhere in short order – kicking out an incumbent channel will be pretty easy. Big Red fans will get Iowa-Nebraska on ESPN, but that isn’t good enough – they will demand to see the Nebraska-Indiana massacre. Their product is excellent and in demand. Nebraska outcompetes “Mad Men.”
Conversely, Maryland can’t outcompete the Game Show Network. They are a mediocre program in a pro sports town. When the competition stepped up, they didn’t. The B10 might invite them – but MD will be a money pit and the B10 will regret it.
Maryland boosters time to leave Imaginationland and take a realistic look at the situation.
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Fine, what about including VTech in the package?
I’ve been trying to say that VTech is the best possible expansion candidate that is geographically sensible at this point and has TV ratings/fans in the seats more than any of the others nearby.
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VA Tech is a great program. They might be able to make sense on their own. To get DC, I think you have to grab ND, VA Tech, MD, UVA — and even then I am not sure you get full coverage.
That’s a lot of moving parts to swing.
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lol good analysis…
I have no idea where the conference will go but absolutley agree that is just the kind of analysis those bankers and consultants are making. there are bound to be surprises.
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Pens,
what 4 would you pick to get to 16?
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Notre Dame first. Then …
I would take the best programs. The best way to judge that? If you are on ABC/ESPN (or CBS) Sat at 3:30 ET or Sat night, you matter. The execs know that people want to see those games. If you are on at noon ET, meh. If you are on Friday, you suck. Thursday is pretty good, but only the two weakest BCS conferences (BEast, ACC) are on — and only b/c ESPN can’t force the other conferences to play that night.
So, to the best of my recollection (with no research), here are the plausible candidates in order of their Sat afternoon, eve appearances:
1) Miami
2) VA Tech
3) Pitt
4/5) Missouri/GA Tech
6) Kansas
Not appearing: MD, UVA, Vandy, Rutgers.
My four adds:
1) Notre Dame
2) Miami
3) GA Tech
4) Pitt
VA Tech is not AAU.
More realistically?
Since ND is the big catch, I still think you have to kill the BEast. So I would sweep up the three BEast AAU members: Pitt, Syr, Rutgers. ND can enter with the academic cream of the crop. ND has played Pitt the 5th most times of any school (more than Michigan) — the schools have a strong relationship that might ease ND entry.
I don’t think Miami is coming. GA Tech has some of the competitive problems of Maryland.
One last note, as painful as it is to admit, I agree with HH. Not convinced some massive conference makes sense. The PAC-16 may regret its expansion as too much. Although knowing that they only have to go to Lubbock once every 16 years may have been enough to get Stanford’s vote.
Now, HH, are ready to admit I was right about Texas have good reasons for wanting to keep the B12 together?
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pens,
I think you make a compelling argument but lets say you try to crush the BE and add Pitt, RU, and SU. Sound thinking, makes sense. So now you capture ND, makes sense.
But what if ND jumps to the ACC after you have already taken Pitt, RU, and SU?
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That’s the problem — lotta moving parts. You have to get all four to agree to make the move together. Might not be possible.
I find the idea of ND to ACC pretty out there.
Every now and then someone brings up “game theory.” When what they are really talking about is a simulation — and if/then game.
Game theory functions on two levels. One is to establish a set of background conditions, see what game applies and then predict an outcome based on a predictive model.
The second level is to realize that in any game, as independent actors proliferate with agendas both seen and unseen, uncertainty goes through the roof (a scientific phrase).
Delaney found out the hard way that he is not in a vacuum and the game he was playing got easily upset by Larry Scott.
A big move like crushing the BEast would take time and a lot of negotiation — who’s to say another conference doesn’t make a big move. The best play is to move one step at a time, improving the conference as you go, but keeping in mind a future vision (whatever that is).
As an aside, I am a Pitt fan (not superfan) who is not big on B10 membership. I think the ACC would be better, if less lucrative. The BEast just needs to die, sick of the drama and the constant jerry-rigging. I like Kansas and all, but for chrissake if the BEast has to save itself by extending to Lawrence? No thanks.
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pens,
interesting discussion, and thanks for the background about Pitt to the ACC and killing the BE.
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“are ready to admit I was right about Texas have good reasons for wanting to keep the B12 together?”
Even if they wanted that, they’re facing more pressure to get it right this time. You have to get people to accept invitations, which they aren’t going to get with the information now public that Texas won’t promise anything 6 years out. You can take that to mean in 6 years with an LSN they figure to go independent. They’ve lost a vote against equitable revenue distribution. Might be hard to find new members who’ll play along in the current climate, at least not without an equal stake in a Big 12 (not LSN) network. Texas very well could be rapidly losing the leverage they thought they were creating.
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eapg —
I may have engaged in some hyperbole at times, but for the most part my point on Texas was that it had compelling reasons to maintain the status quo. It is clear through this process that Texas is ambivalent about leaving the B12. That reality is directly at odds with the assumptions of most of the past posters (not referring to cheating at blackjack) who assumed that Texas was just waiting for the best offer to move.
While political and economic reality is pushing them to leaving the B12, their attitude seems to be attuned to some of the points I made on one of the earlier blog entries.
Of course I never believed that the PAC-10 would move first. But I’m willing to forget that whiff if you are.
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Some very sound reasoning Pens. I am just not sure if the Maryland analysis reflects reality. I really don’t know. But you are absolutely right, the investment bankers and TV market analysts will come up with the plan.
Nebraska fans will be picketing cable offices and find their way to basic cable, and bring the brand name to match-ups on the primary networks.
The map linked below is hardly scientific but may be an indicator we can follow. The hard core fans that find a map like this to make their vote heard could be the same fans who will need to lead the charge to push the BTN in their market.
http://www.commoncensus.org/sports_hotspot.php?radioDiameter=100&map.x=389&map.y=92&sport=5
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Again, take it for what it is worth. A “fan census” is not market analysis. The clickable version I linked above is a bit hard to interpret. I wished it could scale larger.
Another look at the same data is on the large non-clickable version. A factor in favor of both Rutgers and Maryland would be all those Penn State fans having their backs. PSU fans would probably picket the cable offices.
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Forgot to add the link for the large static map. http://www.commoncensus.org/maps/ncaaf_1280.gif
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That’s an interesting project, but because it relies on people going to the site and filling out information themselves, it will have a lot of randomness.
If Loki had found it in before it was last drawn (June 2008, apparently), and forwarded it to 1000 Rice students, Rice University would have come out to be the most popular school in Texas!
As it is, I doubt Texas Tech really has more fans than Florida.
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LOL.. Exactly. And shhhh… not so loud or the Baylor fans will start voting too.
But I think part of it is illustrative. Large state flagship universities bring a lot of fan focus to the population centers in each state. The struggle to push the BTN to basic cable needed that strong consumer voice making as much noise as possible. Even then it was a struggle.
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I love your verbage… “… they will demand to see the Nebraska-Indiana massacre…”
BTW… based on your argument, Rutgers fits the same logic as Maryland. I am one that is NOT on the Rutgers bandwagon—or Syracuse for similar reason.
Thanks for your insight…
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Big Red… Welcome to Big Ten. I look forward to PSU begining a season ending rivalry with you asap. As far as future expansion goes, I’d like to see MD and UVA over Rutgers or Cuse.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5279963
…An SEC athletic director told ESPN.com’s Mark Schlabach that the SEC’s first choice would be adding the Longhorns, but might consider taking Texas A&M because it expands the league’s footprint into the Dallas and Houston TV markets.
Given the fact that Texas A&M may be the only Big 12 school the SEC could add, the league was prepared to make the move even if Texas and Oklahoma went elsewhere.
“We’ve got to be diligent in evaluating this,” another SEC athletic director told ESPN.com’s Schlabach. “We can’t just add teams who are going to split the pie without adding anything substantial to the pie.”
Adding the Aggies would provide SEC West member Arkansas with a natural rival, which the Razorbacks have lacked since joining the league in 1992 from the Southwest Conference.
Looking beyond the Big 12 for expansion, specifically to the ACC for schools such as Georgia Tech, Clemson, Florida State or Miami, was not in the SEC’s plans, sources told ESPN.
The sources saw no way the SEC would raid the ACC and added serious doubt that Virginia Tech could be pried away from Virginia.
The idea the SEC would go after Kansas was also dismissed, though a KU source said that would be a preference for the Jayhawks…
…A source with knowledge of Oklahoma’s future told ESPN on Saturday that Oklahoma had not committed to the Pac-10, and Texas athletic director DeLoss Dodds said Saturday that the Longhorns were still considering “all options.”
Oklahoma was still mulling several options Saturday and discussions within the Sooners program were ongoing, a source told ESPN. One plan still on the table was to keep the 10 remaining Big 12 schools together and reposition the conference for the future.
A source familiar with the Sooners said there was compelling information the Big 12 would still be very strong. The Big 12 could remain at 10 or add teams, which the source said would be a choice to be made later and carefully reviewed…
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Wow, that’s an impressive find.
Probably lends credence to the idea of needing a Maryland/Virginia/VTech grab to pry them all away from the ACC if the Big Ten is really interested…
Or just Maryland…
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One other thing; it seems as if everyone is interested in saving the Big 12 except Texas.
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zeek,
yeah, I noticed that too! Are they trying to make sure if they jump to the P 10 – 16, they will have the “debt” from their “baggage” going forward. The Big 10 only have 4 slots, and OU and TT etc.. will not pass. The SEC has only 4 slots, for 5 teams (UT,A&M,TT,OU,OSU) so the math does not work there either.
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zeek,
*puts on tin foil hat*
What if Texas wants the LHN and wants full control. You get rid of the trouble then reform to an all Texas / Oklahoma conference with 12 members and anchored on one side by UT and the other side by OU. You add in SMU and Rice, and can rule the new network with an almost iron rule because everybody left is so happy to have a home that you get everything you want.
totally brutal, but effective….
*takes off tin foil hat*
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Just Maryland, maybe.
Rutgers/Syracuse will be the next logical targets. It’s about putting pressure on Notre Dame.
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I think the Big 10 should shut it down if we don’t add Notre Dame — which means we should shut it down.
Why exactly should we add several more schools that do not add the national football reputation of our last two additions in Penn State and Nebraska?
Right now, 33% of the Big 10 conference consists of programs that are ranked in the top 9 wins of all time (UM, OSU, PSU, UNL). We also have two very strong programs in Wisconsin and Iowa that are probably in the top for victories since 1990.
Why should we dilute this product? The odds that you would have a Big 10 title game not involving one of OSU, UNL, PSU or UM is very remote. If you start adding a bunch of middling football schools, you increase that chance. Does any Big 10 fan really want to see Rutgers against Missouri?
Honestly, if I were the Big 10, I would rather approach ND about an alliane that could net both parties more money, and keep our conference at twelve schools, then add 3 or 4 other schools in the hopes of gaining ND.
Nebraska is a special addition. But how would you feel if next February, Delaney announces that we are adding Missouri, Rutgers, Pitt and Vanderbilt? I would be disappointed. As a UM fan, that would mean less games against Minnesota, Illinois and Wisconsin, not to mention less games against Penn State and I’d rather play those schools over the long term then some new schools.
I think we have a very good going and we made it stronger then Nebraska. I am not ebullient at the prospect of adding more schools.
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This is a pipe smokers dream. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He’s on crack. No Texas, no Nebraska, no Oklahoma makes the Big 12 a greatly diminished league. Can they survive? Yes with the understanding that they are not the league they used to be and they will not get the numbers they once did.
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StvInILL,
Just look at the SoCon, it is still around. But look at who used to be in it! It is a shell of its former power and might.
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Well, it would be diminished. And it wouldn’t be financially viable vs SEC or Big 10.
However, from the OU perspective, they don’t see joining the Pac10 as a fit nor much of an upgrade.
Long term viability would have to be a TV deal with another league, like the Pac10..we just don’t have to JOIN them as their 2nd class cousin division.
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as an OU guy…..FU@!
Seriously, settle it….go stay, join the f’n MAC just settle it
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West coast paper supporting the view that 4 go to P10.
http://www.mercedsunstar.com/2010/06/12/1457277/college-football-shell-game-might.html
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A thoughtful summation penfan. Teams like Maryland and Virginia do present a problem in that they are cyclic football performers. Even with the potential numbers to support them, would people really turn out or turn on to see them like Cub fans? Like Badger fans?
There is a kinda Gordon Gekko rational at work here. Speaking of the Big East and the ACC. Why should we break into them? “ Because they can be broken”. And if the other guys broken and your improving your if not the, your are a winner.
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StvInILL,
ruthless, but the Big 12 has shown you can be successful in CFB and be broken. What is to stop an attack on the BE or ACC?
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What is to stop an attack on the BE and the ACC? From the standpoint of the Big Ten and SEC, Nothing. It’s just a matter of how big a league they both can settle on. In my opinion. Destabilizing the BE is a good thing for the Big ten. Destabilizing the ACC is a good thing for the SEC. destabilizing them both is a win, win for both.
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exactly, brutal but effective.
the point was if this is what happens, you want to strike first and get the choice cuts, like delany did with Nebraska from the Big 12.
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Agreed. So then the waiting game might be short lived if they are following our advice. ;- )
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StvInILL,
I am not sure how long I could take this expansion talk, I have been on this thing for months now. It must end, or we will all end up in the looney bin mumbling about expansion in south american hockey teams.
🙂
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Cyclic is a good descriptor. I think I’ll appropriate it for the future.
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Billy Liucci, proprietor of TexAgs.com is reporting that Slive is in College Station right now.
Latest in A&M’s SEC/Pac-10 decision: SEC commissioner Mike Slive in College Station today…more to come
http://twitter.com/billyliucci/
Gotta feel this is legit given he is staking the reputation on the line here.
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If Slive is in college station, my guess is he is not looking for gardening tips. This seems like a real where there is smoke there is fire thing. Who did that jet tracking thing for Nebraska?
any private planes in college station?
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College Station? hmm? Maybe he’s there looking for some good barbeque???
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Wouldn’t it be funny if one of these conference commissioners had just randomly set up a trip for some place at the wrong time. Say Delany had a weekend trip to Austin set up for a family trip or the Big 12 commissioner was visiting Salt Lake City to see a relative.
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Nope, they are in South Bend!
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Just so I am clear.. as a collective.. (my texas feeling already posted)
a) we are happiest with texas and A&M in the Big 10
b) we are okay with both in the Pac 16
c) we are “meh” with a reformed Big 12 (we got Nebraska)
d) we are unhappy if either wind up in the SEC
do I have this fairly correct?
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My list started like that, but a) has fallen off to bad choice for me. Compatibility and common purpose in the Big Ten are too important.
I might be boring, but I didn’t care “Who shot J.R.?”, either. Leave the drama to others.
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Have topped 1,000,000 hits. Congratulations, Frank. 🙂
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Duffman,
You are exactly right, and outcome d) is the most important because right now given the facts we know, “d” is the most probable outcome.
If the Pac 10 and SEC get into Texas and Big 10 does not. This is the worst outcome because our competition (SEC) gets into the Texas market and the Big Ten is locked out. This is a bad outcome now and even more so in the future given the fact that Texas is a big and growing state.
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Er. duffman, why shouldn’t we be happy to see option c?
c means that the Big Ten would be the most powerful conference by far… We got one of the national brands and no big fall of domiones. That’s not a bad scenario at all.
And yeah, I guess we’re unhappy if either is in the SEC. I’m still not sold that A&M in the SEC is a total disaster because the Big Ten isn’t going to be focused on that, and if the SEC takes an ACC school to pair with A&M, that might be what the Big Ten needs to strike.
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c) was meh, because it means we did not get Texas and A&M, we got 1 out of 3 so “meh” as if delany got all 3, he would be the stuff of legend! I am happy as heck tho, as I think Nebraska was a top “get”.
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From a kentucky newspaper…. a mrsec link….
http://www.kentucky.com/2010/06/12/1304242/fan-fare-conference-realignment.html
note # 9 and # 10
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Some interesting points. Thinking of Kentucky though. It seems to me that they fit far more in the ACC than the SEC. I mean the academics not withstanding. I would go reverse raid if I was the ACC. They would lose a couple of football schools but if they could steal Kentucky in response would be a small victory.
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StvInILL,
I made the case for UK awhile back..
their president is a MIT guy who has a 20 in 20 plan (research)
they have raised a billion already to that goal
their fans sell around 70,000 seats for a bad team
they have a top basketball team
they have a long term rival in IU
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The SEC is smart enough to not invite Oklahoma. Only aTm will get invited to the SEC. There’s a number of reasons for this: first, unlike the Big Ten, the SEC is “football rich” and does not need more high caliber football teams in the conference (good strong teams, yes, but not Oklahoma type teams). By enticing aTm into the SEC the SEC gets everything it wants (1) a foothold into the lucrative Texas market and (2) keeps it’s biggest rival, the Big Ten, out of Texas.
This shake out is looking great for the Pac 10, very good for the SEC and not so good for the Big Ten right now. Big Ten fans have to hope that the Texas schools can ‘raise the Big XII from the dead’.
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I disagree. The Big Ten already got Nebraska for the 12th spot.
Big Ten going to 12 with Nebraska means a lot more than the SEC going to 13 with A&M. Getting a CCG combined with a national brand is worth a lot more than getting a foothold in Texas and a semi-national brand with a strong footprint base.
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Zeek,
You’ve been right on with your analysis all along, so I respect your opinion.
But, this blog has talked noting but Texas for the last month. Frank’s last post was “It’s all about Texas.” For a dozen reasons we’ve all argued and agreed that Texas (state of) was the Big Prize in expansion. If the Pac 10 and SEC carve up Texas without the Big Ten……The Big Ten is the Big Loser, now and in the future.
If Texas only goes to the Pac, it’s not so bad they were always third banana, but if the SEC gets in and locks the Big Ten out, it’s bad news.
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Well when you say it’s all about Texas, you mean its 75-80% about UT and 20-25% about A&M.
Yes, A&M gets the SEC into the Texas footprint. And parts of the Texas footprint will watch the Aggies. And when the SEC makes a network, that will be valuable.
But they aren’t the national brand that UT or Nebraska is.
To the extent that CBS/ESPN support SEC expansion, it’s as much for the addition of national brands that move the dials like FSU as it is for A&M which would secure a portion of Texas.
Don’t get me wrong, A&M is a valuable property for a lot of reasons, including recruiting and adding the Texas footprint even though you probably get less of the Texas footprint watching than FSU gets of the Florida footprint (in % terms).
Will it help SEC recruiting in Texas? Undoubtably. Does it add a valuable footprint to the SEC? Yes.
I just don’t think that A&M is worth as much overall to the SEC as Nebraska is to the Big Ten if you include CCG configurations, etc.
And plus, Texas/California/Florida aren’t the only places with high school talent. The Big Ten will have to focus on the east if it wants TV markets and recruiting penetration.
Sure many of us would prefer A&M to go with UT and keep the SEC out of Texas entirely, but I don’t really think it’s that bad news for the Big Ten even if it happens.
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Zeek,
Again, I agree with your thought process, but, if this ends up with the Pac and SEC in Texas and the Big Ten locked out it’s a big loss for the Big Ten.
First it was always going to be more difficult for the BT because there was only one school that we could get – UT. But then, again the BT start this whole process of expansion back in Dec. The BT started the Mizzou tales and than Nebraska. IF we don’t get a toe hold in Texas our competition has benefited relative to the gain of NU to the Big Ten.
The SEC doesn’t want or need class A football programs they already have enough of those. They got a share of the biggest market (Texas) and all they did was sit back and wait for the Aggies to call them…
The Pac 10 pulls off a trick play to win the game and basiclly save there conference from becoming irrelavent (yes, we’ll see if the conferenc lasts, but for now it’s a huge win for them).
The Big Ten walks away with NU, a great school (especially from Iowa’s point of view) but I’d say the BT came out third in a three dog race. So for having started this whole process rolling the BT doesn’t capitalize as much as it should have.
At this point I hope the Texas schools CAN keep the Big XII together in some form.
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But Hawkeye, we split the Texas schools among the other two conferences if that does happen.
And guess what, there’s still Notre Dame on the table.
I worry more about recruiting grounds in the future, which is why I was in favor of the Texas move.
I think it can easily be made up though by going into NJ/MD/VA if possible.
I agree with you that this is not so good an outcome if everything freezes.
But I think we’re just getting started. When I see more moves, I’ll be ready to judge.
You may very well be right at the end of the day if the Big Ten stays at 12.
But for now, I’m going to hold back because the Big Ten just going to 12 is a big feat.
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Zeek,
Here’s the question: “Is the Big Ten better off compared to the other conferences with NE and then Pac 10 getting the six BIG XII schools and the SEC with aTm? OR is the BT better off with the status quo before the expansion started?”
My answer is that although the BT is better off with NE (obviously) the other conferences gained relative to the BT. Pac gained a new life and SEC got a coveted market is better then the BT getting a fine school with national name albeit in a small market. My answer is the BT was better RELATIVE TO THE OTHER conferences before.
Now the BT has to make up more ground with positions 13 – 16. (I assume that’s were we’re headed) and now it seems to me we have to go to 16 because again, in my opinion the BT lost ground to the competition.
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One possibility would be that A&M to SEC gives SEC enough of a foothold in TX to hurt A&M, Texas and OU. Probably wouldn’t bother the Aggies that much. Those 3 weakened could open up Texas for the B10 like it was when the SWC was dying in the late 80s and early 90s. Probably just the SEC and P10 benefit, but it could be wide open again.
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“Here’s the question: “Is the Big Ten better off compared to the other conferences with NE and then Pac 10 getting the six BIG XII schools and the SEC with aTm? OR is the BT better off with the status quo before the expansion started?””
Remember, there was one other candidate for best football conference: the Big 12.
You just help take one of your bigger competitors off the map. So all the survivors are a little better off.
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(m) AG:
Of course you are correct, all the moves so far look like they’ll eliminate the Big XII to the benefit of the BT, Pac and SEC.
But the BT put all this in motion to begin with. If the Pac and SEC gain relative to the BT, then the BT is the NET loser in this round of expansion.
The BT was behind the SEC (as far as football) to begin with. Since that’s the case you can’t just trade chess pieces (since we’re playing double chess).
If the BT simply trades chess pieces with the SEC the BT is relegated to second banana. And the BT might be THIRD banana now if the Pac is successful.
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Calling it a loss for the Big Ten not to get UT is very funny IMO. (look at a map)
It is truly amazing that they are even giving the conference so much of a look. Which speaks volumes about what they have to offer in respect to the total package, and this is happening without being able to invite more than a couple of like teams. (because of academic fit)
The SEC has no such parameters and they get aTm maybe?
And the likely reason they get such a team is because they want to get out from UT’s shadow.
I’m sorry I think The SEC is a great brand with great teams. But plucking a ripe aTm in your owm basic backyard is not the coup of the century.
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William,
The loss for the Big Ten is not the loss of UT, it’s the lost opportunity of getting into the Texas market. Remember the BT started this whole expansion process rolling.
To start all this and walk away with one very good team in a small market state is a loss RELATIVE to what your competition has gained.
The aTm to the SEC (if it happens) is a big win for the SEC on many levels. (a) the SEC does not want any more high profile schools they have enough, what they want is market expansion and the best market was Texas.
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agreed that aTm is a nice addition. If it happens.
But don’t get carried away. Texas OU and Nebraska are the three stooges and aTm is Shemp.
Calling Big Ten expansion a failure because it didn’t get into Texas is very funny.
It’s Texas!
By the way it is all about UT, because if the market was so important they would be chasing a different TX school.
Texas was a target because it is a great institution and fit, that would bring a big market for the BTN. but it is and always has been a long shot.
Nebraska is a perfect fit for the conference it is a national brand that has great history. It will make the BTN plenty of money. More money than aTm will ever bring the SEC.
Do you think Delany is making any of these decisions on recruiting grounds?
Not a chance. It’s about fit. Big 10 needed a 12th member and they hit a HR.
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William,
The BT expanison is not a failure. NU is a great school and a super fit for the BT.
The BT LOST GROUND RELATIVE TO IT’S COMPETITION (Pac and SEC).
On what basis do you say “It (Nebraska) will make the BTN plenty of money. More money than aTm will ever bring the SEC.”
Any evidence?
That may be true, but I doubt that we or even JD has any evidence on that. My bet is that over time the Texas market share IS BETTER than any one team.
NU is not a basketball school, we better hope that there football team is great. (i.e. See Michigan) I would much rather that my long term bet is on a growing market than any one team….even the Gators had a long drought in the 80’s…..
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My Bad on failure comment.
Big Ten does not lose ground on the SEC IMO with the addition Nebraska.
The BTN get’s 70-80 cents every month from the subscribers in NEB. This doesn’t take into the account NEB. national profile.
Then the Big Ten gets a CCG. which is another big payday.
all for adding one team.
SEC will have to add two teams more then likely. Now if you think aTm and Missouri are going to make ESPN and CBS pony up another 40 million dollars to equal the revenue sharing for the SEC members. But that only gets you to even.
You are probably opening up one expensive recruiting lane. Don’t see the competitive advantage.
Not saying Slive shouldn’t do it. But I think you are over hyping its value.
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William,
I hope your right about the value of NU. But, we may have to agree to disagree.
Again, my main point is that BT lost out on the break up of the Big XII RELATIVE to it’s competition (Pac & SEC).
IF we could have got NU without the break up of the Big XII and letting our competition advance it would have been a big win. And it seems to me that getting only NU without breaking up the whole conference was possible. Tom Osborn even asked the league if they would survive with only the loss of one school and i believe the answer was “yes.”
There may be more going on here than meets the eye. My feeling is that the BT lost round one relative to the other conferences. So if the expansion grab isn’t over the BT has to make up ground relative to the Pac and SEC. The Pac is done, I assume, at 16.
So we have to do better than the SEC with our remaining options. To me, it looks like ND becomes more valuable than ever (if you can imagine that). But will the BT ever land them?
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Agreed ND has always been the prize.
But The Big Ten could stop right now and the league would benefit as a whole greatly.
CCG and more.
SEC will have to possibly find 40 million dollars more a year. for adding aTm and ?
they already have ccg and just signed new deal. even if espn and cbs redo deal. 40 million extra a year to keep the status quo seems unlikely from those teams.
SEC doesn’t benefit from gaining markets in terms of dollars because they don’t have network. But I see why slive is doing it an SEC pipeline into TEX is big. But it will be expensive to its members.
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“SEC doesn’t benefit from gaining markets in terms of dollars because they don’t have network.”
SEC doesn’t directly, but ESPN does. One of their many networks is called ESPNU. With the latest SEC contract, a fair amount of its games is SEC related. One of the reasons the SEC and ACC contracts are so high is to keep this network in business.
Getting that network higher priority in Texas and keeping a bigger school away from the new Pac 10 network is valuable to ESPN.
This gives ESPN a good long term incentive to pay more to get Texas A&M into the SEC.
In addition, if more Texans will now watch a game like Alabama at Arkansas because it affects how A&M does in it’s division, it will boost ratings for both CBS and ESPN.
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Would an Arkansas/Texas A&M rivalry be a large enough draw for Jerry Jones to push for the game at JerryWorld?
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“Would an Arkansas/Texas A&M rivalry be a large enough draw for Jerry Jones to push for the game at JerryWorld?”
Heh.
Since Arkansas left the SWC, A&M didn’t play Arkansas at all until last year, and the game was at Jerryworld.
Jerry Jones (famous Arkansas alum) negotiated a contract for the 2 teams to play annually at his big new toy. It’s a 5 year contract that can be renewed for something like 25 years.
Presumably it will continue to be at Dallas even if A&M moves to the SEC.
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Wilarm 1,
I’ll go on the record as saying that I think the BT made a big error if it doesn’t land UT. UT was the most certainly the target of all this expansion. (I can assure you NU was Not the primary object here).
I still think that the BT has a shot at UT. And, yes, if the BT doesn’t land UT it’s a blunder. Maybe some combination in the east could make up for UT, BUT EVEN JIM D SAID TO LOOK SOUTH THAT DEMOGRAPHICS POINTED SOUTH. I can tell you he wasn’t referring to Rice University…….
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I figured Jerry would like to see his Razorbacks playing in Dallas, but he is so far ahead of me that I think I am winning.
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I just can’t see an ACC school moving anywhere right now. I understand why A&M would want a split from Texas, and actually think it makes perfect sense. They already are in position to recruit throughout Texas and can gain some advantage if they could sell their conference over whatever conference Texas us in.
There are 2 stumbiling blocks as I can tell though. Much like Texas, I don’t see hoe A&M are free politically to go anywhere w/o guaranteed home for TT and Possibly Baylor or even another. I also keep returning to the fact that all the tensing B12 schools outside if Texas actually seem to want to keep B12 alive. No clue where Mizzou is, other than refaced, but Texas can prob name Their rules and most if the others will play along.
Still, a fairly believable source i’ve heard from is completely sure the P16 is a done deal with entire B12 South less Baylor, so I guess that’s where my money would be in Vegas!
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I don’t see an ACC team moving either. If an ACC team where to move it is much more likely to be a team to the Big 10 than the ACC. The ACC TV deal is really not that far off from the SEC’s deal especially when you consider buy outs (on another board a claimed insider said they where largest in college sports). Virgina, UNC, and Duke each are sitting on athletic endowments that are in the top 5 in the country so money itself is not the issue for them. UNC administration is in lock step with Dukes so they are a package deal and UNC most likely has a baby brother problem. Miami one of the teams that keep on getting mentioned has publicly stated they enjoy being in the ACC and that was both before and during expansion. There has been long been tension between the athletic department and administration which the administration has been winning. The student body comes not from the south but the mid Atlantic and north. Just can’t see them jumping unless forced too. VT is another school that has made public comments about the ACC being a good home. They also used a large amount of political capital to get into the ACC recently. I just find it hard to believe they can make a move.
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The one thing that everyone should realize by now is that both A&M and Texas are free to move without Tech and Baylor. The political landscape in Texas now is greatly different from what it was in 1994. The politicians are staying out of it this time.
If Bill Powers suggested to Gordon Gee that he had to take Tech along becuase the Legislature required it, he was either lying, or just mistaken as to the political situation (and I couldn’t blame him for that–nobody knew for sure how the pols would play it). The fact is, Tech is going to the Pac 10 simply because Texas WANTS to take Tech along, as well as A&M, OU and OSU. Their current situation is very good, and they want to preserve as much of that as they can, without sacrificing any significant money.
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QUESTION FOR TV EXPERTS —
Is 16 schools really that much better for the BTN than 14?
The Big Ten currently plays 44 conference games spread over nine weeks, and ESPN/ABC televises 27 of them, leaving 17 for the Big Ten Network. If I remember from last season, the Big Ten Network usually only televised one game per Saturday, with a few double-headers.
12 schools and eight conference games creates 48 regular season games, of which ESPN/ABC will televise 27, leaving 21 for the BTN.
14 schools and eight conference games creates 56 games, of which ESPN/ABC will televise 27, leaving 29 for the BTN.
16 schools and eight conference games creates 64 games, of which ESPN/ABC will televise 27, leaving 37 for the BTN.
Now, unless we are willing to start playing on Tuesdays and Thursdays, there is no way the Big Ten Network is going to be able to use an inventory of 37 games over nine weeks.
Presumably, the Big Ten will try to sell a fourth game to ESPN/ABC in the next contract, but that’s not for six years and it would still leave 28 games over nine weeks for the BTN.
I realize that extra inventory of Big Ten football games is not that bad a problem to have, but unless we are going to start playing during the week or changing the schedule to accommodate BTN triple-headers, 16 schools seems like overkill.
In light of the inventory situation and the fact that Texas and Notre Dame appear unlikely to join, I would add two of Maryland/Rutgers/Missouri and call it a day.
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And if schools #13 and #14 don’t pay for themselves with cable subscribers, and they’re not named Notre Dame, then they are probably not adding much money to the upcoming ESPN/ABC contract or the current Big Ten Network ad rates either.
I think Rutgers and Maryland are worth it strictly from a cable subscriber perspective. I would put Missouri and Syracuse are on the fence and defer to anyone who knows a lot about cable subscribers and rates.
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Well, let’s be careful.
How much does a new school need to earn? In reality only as much as they need to be “made whole” at the start as compared to their old conference payment, and keep the current members whole.
Note that Nebraska has a ramped up buy in.
It doesn’t need to bring $20M+ per year to the Big Ten; even though it probably will easily bring in more than that.
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So you’re advocating uneven revenue sharing for new members?
In the short term until they earn their BTN equity stake or just a smaller piece of the pie long term?
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No, there’s a ramp up to equality, so that the existing members don’t take a hit.
What that means is, that you don’t have to just take teams that automatically enlarge the pie by a full slice.
Thus, I think Frank’s 11 + 1 = 13 logic is more of a long term view. Yes you want the strongest possible additions, but you can add markets that pay off over a period of say 5 years with a built in ramp up.
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Yeah, I get the build up to full equity stake concept.
But after five years or so, new additions still have to enlarge the pie enough to pay for themselves.
My contention is that once you get to 14 schools, there is no school #15 or #16 other than Notre Dame which will add enough money to the pie through a combination of increased inventory, increased cable carriage, and increased ad rates.
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So anybody heard what deal UNL got? All I’ve heard is that it will take a while before they get full partnership (I thought everyone in B10 was an equal partner and that it was share and share alike ) and that they are guaranteed not to get less than in the B12. That means they could get less than a 50% share for an unknown period of time.
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I haven’t seen anything written.
Presumably they get an equal share of the tv money, but they have to slowly buy shares of the Big Ten Network from the other Big Ten schools until every school has an equal percentage of ownership.
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It is very hard to get a good fix on the BTN because it is a private corporation. The only payouts that are truly visible so far are the annual rights fees paid back to the schools.
Google for BTN and SNL Kagan. Kagan is the cable TV analyst that has follwed the BTN from the start. Before launch they expressed skepticism it would fly. Later they expressed surprise it became profitable so fast. Last I saw they estimated the current value of the BTN at $1B, with a projected value of $3B in a “few years”.
The Big Ten schools have been paying back their share of profits to Fox to repay the initial investment for their 51% equity stake. The Big Ten has said that should be paid off in “a couple years”. After they pay that off, more money will start to flow back to the schools.
I expect the statements in the press conference are in reference to Nebraska paying back their share of the profits over time to get their equal equity stake. Nebraska will do quite well.
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Why tripleheaders? At least on Dish Network, we have multiple Big Ten network channels on Saturdays, all in HD.
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frank,
if that twitter from Teddy Greenstein is right “watch out for maryland” then based on what happened with Nebraska, we should be looking for schools that fit, but were not on that list of 5!
🙂
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QUESTION ABOUT NCAA BYLAWS —
Could the SEC, ACC, Mountain West, Big Ten, MAC, Notre Dame, Army, and Navy (that’s 62 of the 120 FBS schools and most of the powerful ones) petition the NCAA to cap the maximum football conference size at 14?
It doesn’t seem like it is in the SEC or the Big Ten’s interest to go to 16. It is definitely not in the ACC’s interest to be raided by the SEC and the Big Ten. It is not in the WAC’s interest to have a 16 school Pac-16 and a 16 school Big Ten as it’s neighbors, and it’s TV contact will see diminishing returns with the addition of even one more school on top of its current ten. I figure the Big Ten can get the MAC to vote with them for fear of losing out on non-conference football games if the Big Ten goes to 16 and starts playing nine or ten conference games. Notre Dame, Navy, and Army would support the measure based on the same logic.
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Sorry, third sentence in the second paragraph is messed up. I meant Mountain West, not WAC, and its, not it’s.
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No.
The NCAA doesn’t really deal with conference affiliation much.
Oh, and what do you do with the Big East which already has 16 schools.
It’s unrealistic to just cap it at 14 for football, and it wouldn’t happen because the SEC and Big Ten presume they may be at 16 someday…
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Zeek I have been AWOL,
Assume 16 give me your choice schools.
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Well if we have to go to 16 I think we have to include ND.
Personally though, I kind of prefer an approach that brings in a semi-national brand as well in VaTech. Yes, that seems somewhat unreasonable, but if you can swing Maryland/Virginia/VaTech, that would actually be a justifiable expansion in terms of athletic fit from the point of view of adding another Iowa/Wisconsin level school in football terms in VaTech.
The problem is, most scenarios assume that teams #13-15 are going to be “filler” as a way of getting ND to sign on as #16.
If you include VaTech then that’s not really true all of a sudden because VaTech is a worthy addition in its own right (yes its not AAU, but it is equally academically to several Big Ten universities, and it’s clearly no “Tech problem”).
But then why leave out Rutgers? I’m almost certain that Delany wants the Big Ten to be playing games that close to NYC even if its a gamble on NJ. Also, helping schools recruit there is important, but I tend to think that might be more of a wash because NJ football kids tend to go to Big Ten universities anyways.
If you move into Maryland/VA you legitimately open new recruiting areas or help to solidify them for the Nebraskas/Iowas to make it easier to get kids to come to the Big Ten.
I think the optimal expansion right now is
ND/Maryland/VaTech/Rutgers or ND/Maryland/VaTech/Va (if UVA has to come with VaTech).
If ND balks, this strategy actually gets to 16 without ND as in Maryland/VA/VaTech/Rutgers. That really opens up NJ/Maryland/Va and gives you an alternative semi-national brand to ND if ND says no.
But I don’t think Delany ever goes to 16 without ND…
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Va Tech is an interesting twist. (thumbs up)
I think Delany has to go toward new population centers. Maryland and VA. seem like slam dunks.
I’m starting to think if something doesn’t happen with Texas. (miracle) that we may be at 12 for awhile.
16 is starting to look like it may be off. especially if Big 12 can get the band back together.
Pac adds Utah.
12 adds 2 or stays the same.
Even if Pac goes to 16. with or without aTm it may be smart to sit back and see if it works.
If SEC adds say aTm and Missouri-and don’t go after the ACC, and stay at 14.
I’m not sure Delany acts. 12 with the CCG brings in more value.
If SEC starts in on the ACC than I believe he will strike while the iron is hot.
I’m starting to think 16 is becoming a dream.
your league would be a killer.
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What else is included in the section of the NCAA charter that the SEC used to justify splitting into two divisions and adding a conference championship game? We know that one other tidbit in that section is the 12 team minimum for the conference championship game. Why not just petition to have a “14 school maximum” clause added in as well?
The requirement would only apply to football conferences, so as to preserve the giant Big East basketball confernece (at least until the eight football members get picked off). There are also some olympic sports conferences with more than 14 that would be protected.
I get that it’s unrealistic and will never happen, I’m just interested in exactly why not.
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The NCAA has a statement on the matter that puts any thoughts that they might decide to intervene to rest:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/ncaa+statement+on+conference+expansion
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14 School Conferences that will of course never happen:
Pac-14 adds Texas, Texas Tech, and Oklahoma State
SEC adds Texas A&M and Oklahoma
Big Ten adds Maryland and Rutgers
ACC adds Syracuse, UConn, and Pitt
West Virginia, Louisville, Cinci, Memphis, Missouri, Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Baylor, Houston, South Florida, and Central Florida start a 12 school conference.
The Mountain West adds Fresno State and Nevada to get to 12.
Conference USA picks up three remnants of the WAC, Utah State, New Mexico State, and Louisiana Tech to get to 12.
Hawaii goes Independent and San Jose State and Idaho move to FCS.
That leaves four 14 school dominant conferences, two 12 school upper-tier conferences, two 12 school lower-tier conferences, the Sun Belt, and Notre Dame/Hawaii/Army/Navy.
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Is it just me?
Everybody in the Big 12 says they want to keep it together, but the Pac 10 has flown to Texas to talk to Texas (who holds the cards) while Texas has not had the Missouri, Kansas, Kansas State folks fly to texas as well!
Silly me, but further proof that the Big 12 is DOA!
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We have endlessly discussed east coast markets for the Big Ten. Rutgers is on the doorstep of NYC, but few believe Rutgers alone would give enough leverage to get on basic cable in NYC. The state of New Jersey is decent fall back position and any additional exposure in the region has to help too.
How about looking west? The new Pac-16 appears to be coming, and if you add up all those media markets it looks like a winner.
A Pac 10 Network (PTN) is in the works. I think we can all agree the PTN will be a slam dunk in Texas. Market pressure from fans will be relentless. But what about the existing Pac-10 footprint? Won’t the cable companies along the west coast be nearly as tough a nut to crack as the NYC market? Past history has certainly shown the west coast fans to be casual and shallow. The freaking NFL has lost two L.A. teams and you can hardly say it caused a fan revolt(compared to Cleveland at least). Now the third NFL team (USC) is being demoted. Will the fan base stick with them?
I am thinking the combined star power of the Pac-16 teams will bring a very nice upgrade to the next network contract. But will the BTN business model work on the west coast? Maybe the Longhorns will get to launch their network after all.
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I think this is a very good point; perhaps one of the best non-rehashed thoughts in a while.
We’ve noted several times that outside of Southern California, there is much less football intensity in the rest of the Pac-10 region as there is in the Big 12 or the Big Ten or SEC. Whether the rest of the Pac-10 can swing the PTN is an important consideration for Texas. Texas would assuredly be voting yes if it went to the Pac-10.
But, the Pac-10 setup may hinder this; a lot of the appeal of Texas to the PTN would be games that bring Texas to the West Coast. But there aren’t a lot of those at all in the Pac-8/SWC division setups that we all talk about.
If you wall off the Pac-8 for all but 2 games with crossover, then it may be problematic for getting providers to sign on all across the west coast. We’ll see though I guess…
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Again, I don’t know what TEXAS is thinking. Do they have anyone on the ground in the pacific west. Football and college sports in general hardly register out there compared to the South and Midwest. The PTN will NEVER do the business of the BTN, I don’t care how they market it.
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I think the influx of a fresh blood like Texas and Oklahoma may just do it. If not them we will know in about 3 – 5 years definitively. Or nothing will. Likewise if focus of the conference becomes too Texas focused over time, I don’t think that will be a good thing either.
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Good points. I think though PTN would not be as much of a slam dunk as you might think in Texas. The big problem is aTm. If aTm doesn’t come along (which I believe they won’t) you only have TTech and UT. While big schools this is the difference between basic tier cable versus a sports tier (see NFL Network). If all three were going together, you would have a slam dunk – basic tier no questions asked. However without aTm, it will just have to be purchased seperate. Still good revenue, but not rolling in the money revenue.
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Great point and as anyone who has lived out there can tell you absolutely true. Why hasn’t anyone told Texas?
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You knew it was coming.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4739650/big_12_dead/
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Funny, but derivative.
The original:
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Indeed. Not exactly original. Several Brett Favre versions have circulated in Wisconsin…
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BTW, that is an exceptional movie if you’re into World War II movies. Der Untergang (or “Downfall”). Check it out. Bruno Ganz as Hitler is eerie.
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One of the greatest movies of all time. It actually felt like you were there. Creepy and cold but brilliantly done.
Apparently they couldn’t bring themselves to award an Oscar to an actor who’s portraying Hitler, but he deserved it.
Another GREAT movie about the downfall of the Nazi’s (in the same vain) is called “Sophie Scholl” – netflix it, it’s awesome.
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Yep, another great flic. I’m German American so I try and watch all of those films. Next on my list is White Ribbon.
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G1
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@Faithful5k – That clip can be used for almost any sports meltdown. My favorite is one that was done after the Cowboys lost to the Giants in the playoffs a couple of years ago (right after Tony Romo spent his off-week in Mexico with Jessica Simpson):
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Here’s another version:
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I feel I have to pipe in with my experience with the ACC schools (last seven years at UVa before that Michigan). First, the ACC’s core is extremely strong. Second, there is little chance that UVa or Maryland join the Big Ten by themselves or together. I believe that Duke, Maryland, UNC and UVa are all one group. The caveat being, I don’t know North Carolina’s politics. I do believe that culturally Maryland is very close to the Big Ten. It has been expanding in research recently. UVa has a new president (who was at UofM before coming here) who I believe will try and improve the research the emphasis here. Both of these universities would fit in the Big Ten. UVa would love the access to the libraries of CIC.
As for UNC joining the SEC, everyone I know from there is absolutely against it. UNC is much like Texas. It may be in the south, but it cares about academics. Again, this comes from UNC grades and NC people in Virginia.
Form this, I would think the Big Ten should try for Duke, Maryland, UNC and UVa. First, they fit academically. Second, they do add a lot for athletics in basketball and non revenue sports. Third, great add for demographics. Again, the caveats are I do not know NC politics and this would only happen if the ACC was on the verge of going all Big XII.
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Texas A&M regents have the votes to join the SEC and could announce that move as early as next week, sources tell Orangebloods.com 13 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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# @joshcbabb days behind texas and tech in terms of when they announce their intentions, most likely 33 minutes ago via web in reply to joshcbabb
# @joshcbabb A&M knows there is a definite timetable on this deal that has been pushed forward at an incredible rate. they’ll be two or three 33 minutes ago via web in reply to joshcbabb
# @joshcbabb They won’t wait more than a couple of days before announcing a regents meeting but the Pac-10 offer is NOT in jeopardy rt now 34 minutes ago via web in reply to joshcbabb
# Just for clarification, A&M does indeed have TWO options on the table — Pac-10 and SEC about 1 hour ago via web
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Well, I’m glad for Kansas at least, looks as if they’re going to get a much needed reprieve from all of this.
Hopefully loony toon politicians in Kansas don’t try to ride to the rescue to screw this up (I know they will but I had to say it).
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http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=1637687&forum_id=5
“Does anyone in the SEC have horns to saw off?”
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There may be a break in the series for a few years just because of scheduling problems. Plan now is 9 conference games. If A&M does go alone to the SEC, they will be lost. I’ve seen some wear white shirts with burnt orange with a longhorn on the back with its horns sawed off. Do you know of ANY other school so preoccupied with their rival to wear their colors?
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# OU confirms “cordial” and “informative” meeting w Pac-10. Sushi was served. 6 minutes ago via txt
# “Goodbye to Texas University…” becomes “Goodbye Big 12…”? 9 minutes ago via txt
# Wanted: Writer for new Texas A&M war hymn 10 minutes ago via txt
# GeorgeSchroeder: Oklahoma issues statement confirming president, AD met with Pac-10’s Scott, Weiberg today in OKC. Regents will meet Wed … 17 minutes ago via txt
# RT @Jake_Trotter: #OU board of regents to meet Wed. to discuss conference realignment. 18 minutes ago via txt
# Hearing if A&M passes on Pac-10, Utah has edge on Kansas as potential 16th member about 2 hours ago via txt
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Well, maybe I spoke too soon about Kansas…
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The SEC won’t get UT ot OU, but they will get T A&M. WHy are they not minterested in Missouri?
Missouri borders KY, AK, and Tenn. Has better academic proflile than 2/3rds of SEC. Would bring SEC into KC and STL markets.
Huh?
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@doug. I think that makes total sense, and I’m surprised we haven’t heard Missouri to the SEC
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doug,
i think the Va Tech thing has wings to go with A&M, the reporter for Kentucky said the denial for Va Tech was so severe, he believed it was actually the truth. Look up several posts for the link kentucky.com it is the website for the paper in KY. If Va Tech is the other side, missouri would be out.
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Football-wise Missouri could disappear in the SEC. And they have an opportunity to become a real outlier. I would be looking in tow other directions. Big East and MWC. This would not be bad if there are still opportunities down the line to become a big ten school as they would be in a better position to dominate these conferences.
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They may be interested in Missouri.
I find it hard to believe they’re actually offering A&M a spot if they don’t have somebody lined up for spot #14.
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m (Ag) – I think the offer is legit. If I’m running the SEC with the understanding that UT is never going to join, then A&M is a great addition: top TV markets, huge recruiting territory, rabid fan base, and not really a competitive threat as of now to Florida or Alabama. (Not intending to be harsh on that last point, but it’s currently the case.) Mike Slive should make that offer immediately (and so should Jim Delany, for that matter).
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I don’t think the SEC has figured out #14. They are still working on UT & OU. You just don’t seem to be hearing any speculation. Several stories say no ACC teams. I just don’t think VT leaves ACC after working so hard to get in.
If no ACC teams, that leaves Missouri, WVU and maybe USF. USF would be possible because with a 14 team league less games would be played in FL and FL recruiting is critical to just about everyone in the conference except maybe UGA, LSU and Arkansas.
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Doug,
SEC is Not interested in Mizzou for the same reasons the BT doesn’t want Mizzou. Reason one it’s not a big enough football draw. Not national, fan base isn’t “rabid”.
There are only a few open spaces left (only 3 in the SEC after aTm). Mizzou is a net loser in this round of expansion.
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Utah as a better travel partner for Col.?
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Utah as the home of Sen. Orrin Hatch, whose been raising hell over the BCS for the last several years. That ought to shut him up.
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Utah is definitely a better sports addition than Kansas.
-Utah has two perfect football seasons in the last six years. That’s incredible. They’re 70-19 in the last seven years (Meyer and Willingham eras).
-They have a very good men’s basketball program. Their 29 appearances in the NCAA tournament ranks 7th of all time. They’ve played in four Final Fours, most recently in 1998 when they lost to Kentucky in the championship.
-Utah has finished ahead of Kansas in the Director’s Cup four of the past five years:
’08-’09: Utah #51, Kansas #72
’07-’08: Utah #84, Kansas #54
’06-’07: Utah #60, Kansas #66
’05-’06: Utah #56, Kansas #60
’04-’05: Utah #55, Kansas #61
Travelwise, they make a nice pair with Colorado.
Academically, they are #82 ARWU, Kansas is 202-301.
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http://newsok.com/source-pac-10-commissioner-visiting-ou-osu-texas-texas-tech-and-texas-am-this-weekend/article/3468289?custom_click=headlines_widget
From the Daily Oklahoman.
Pac-10 commish Larry Scott in Oklahoma, gives out invites, will go to Texas next
OU Regents to meet Wednesday to discuss alignment
“The same Oklahoman source said one last-ditch effort to salvage the Big 12 could take place Monday in a meeting with the athletic directors from the Big 12’s remaining schools.
The meeting could also involve talking to TV officials, to gauge what kind of TV contract the league could land after losing both Colorado and Nebraska this past week.
The Big 12’s TV contract with Fox expires after the 2011 season.”
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wow..
TU, TT, OU, OSU – P 16
Kansas or Utah to fill the last slot if no A&M
A&M – P 16 or SEC 13
Kansas, Kansas ST, Missouri to MWC
Nebraska to Big 10 already
Colorado to Pac 16
has anybody seen a major conference implode that fast!?
next up the ACC?
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Iowa State and Baylor crying about not even being mentioned in articles anymore. Can’t even get duffman from Frank The Tank’s Slant to talk about their destination…
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Baylor is actually being blackballed from the MWC by TCU, according to the Ft. Worth paper. Apparently TCU is still a little pissed about how Baylor ended up in the Big 12 and they didn’t.
However, Baylor will likely end up in CUSA.
Iowa State is just screwed. They’ve got to hope that one of the Kansas schools or Mizzou turn down a MWC invite.
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Again, I expect Kansas, K-State, and Missouri to go to the Big East, which needs to secure its BCS automatic bid. The Big East is the only BCS league to want those 3 schools.
Whether Iowa State or Memphis get into the Big East as the 12th FBS football-playing member remains to be seen.
FedEx boss Fred Smith is waving $10 million in front of the Big East in an attempt to buy Memphis a spot in the Big East.
The MWC won’t get any of the Big 12 north schools, especially after Utah bails for the Pac-16.
The MWC would still be stuck at 9 schools, with Boise State replacing Utah. That won’t be good enough for the MWC to get a BCS auto bid.
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The ACC just signed a big fat TV contract with ESPN, Inc.
I can’t see any of them leaving for the SEC unless the SEC wants BOTH Virginia and Virginia Tech as a pair.
Georgia Tech and Clemson add nothing to the SEC in terms of TV footprint.
Florida State and Miami also add nothing to the SEC in terms of TV footprint.
The 3 North Carolina triangle schools form the core of the ACC. They won’t leave.
The Big Ten, on the other hand, is looking at Maryland for the purpose of adding the Washington DC and Baltimore TV markets to the TV footprint of the Big Ten Network.
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Curiouser and curiouser…
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=5279963
Looking beyond the Big 12 for expansion, specifically to the ACC for schools such as Georgia Tech, Clemson, Florida State or Miami, was not in the SEC’s plans, sources told ESPN.
A source with knowledge of Oklahoma’s future told ESPN on Saturday the Sooners had not committed to the Pac-10.
This Pac-16 is not a slam dunk. Things are very much in flux.
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B10J,
if it is not a slam dunk, it makes A&M look smarter for going separate?
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Oh, it’s set up now so that if it falls apart, UT will publicly blame A&M forever after.
Although if A&M goes to the SEC and UT announces it goes to the Big 10 the day after, I think they’ll actually be happy. I’ll certainly be annoyed.
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m,
Texas is trapped, because a move to the Big 10 will mean they backstabbed OU. It could get pretty ugly after that, nobody is gonna like UT.
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I’m sure OU could still get into the SEC at that point. Texas Tech and Oklahoma State will be the ones that hate Texas forever if that happens and they get stuck holding the bag with Baylor.
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It’s a great move, IMHO.
1) For the same reasons the BTN wants to penetrate Texas, the SEC should be engaging the Texas market for future considerations.
2) Nothing beats institutionalizing Texas as a recruiting base.
3) TAMU ‘smarts up’ the SEC.
4) TAMU is not a particularly legitimate threat to the SEC top dogs in football at this point.
5) Allows TAMU to get out of the UT shadow with an eye to true competition at some point in the future.
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nice ref dude
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One would have to suspect that the story in the (Washington DC) Examiner makes some sense:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/sports/blogs/Watch-This/Remaining-Big-12-schools-to-the-Big-East-gaining-momentum-96137294.html
The proposed Big East football league below solves a number of problems:
1. The Big East can keep its BCS automatic bid
2. The 4 remaining Big 12 North members can stay together in a BCS league
3. Kansas and Kansas State can stay together in the same conference
Can the “Big East Network”, or a fat contract upgrade from ESPN, Inc., be far behind?
That would mean Utah will be the 16th member of the Pac-16.
Proposed Big East football league:
“East” Division
Connecticut
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
West Virginia
“West” Division
Cincinnati
Louisville
Missouri
Iowa State
Kansas
Kansas State
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This KU over Utah rumor needs to end. It was nothing more than a trial balloon floated on Chip’s twitter. Utah has been “in” this whole time. KU will not get into the PAC over Utah in any scenario. The Utah invite will be announced next week. Mark it down.
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Not really a trial balloon.
The Austin Statesman was reporting that Stanford was pushing for Kansas over Texas A&M.
Kansas would have allowed the Pac 16 to have a 2nd big brand name basketball program (besides UCLA).
I personally believed that the Big East was going to end up with Kansas and Missouri because the Big East needs them and Kansas would prefer the Big East over the Mountain West (or Conference USA).
Once Cincinnati and Louisville reportedly got involved to spearhead the effort to annex all 4 remaining Big 12 North schools in order to form a “west” division for the Big East football league, one would have to believe that Kansas will be headed to the Big East instead of the Pac 16.
The Big East will be a monster basketball league, regardless of whether the 8 non-FBS members stay (so that the Big East will have 20 basketball members) or break off to form a new league without FBS football.
The proposed 12-team Big East football league should end any discussion of the Big East’s BCS automatic bid.
The Mountain West, even with Boise State in the fold, can’t match the Big East.
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WOW! who saw that mix coming!
Looks like the ACC is the next to get cherry picked!
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I’m sure we’ve all noticed that the great irony of all this expansion is that the Big East was the one everyone was worried about but in reality the Big 12 and ACC had the best schools but were right between the three sharks.
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In a perverse way, the Big East’s weakness turned out to be its strength.
An intriguing irony: West Virginia’s Mountaineer Field was designed by the same people who built Iowa State’s stadium, which opened five years earlier. Hope WVU isn’t confused when it visits Ames.
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zeek,
as i said earlier….
The Big 12 could be picked by PAC, B 10, and SEC
The ACC can be picked by B 10 and SEC
The BE was only threatened by the B 10
what do they say, location, location, location….
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What if Rutgers goes to the Big Ten? Does Temple take its place?
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If Rutgers were to go to the Big Ten, then the Big East will take Central Florida. The I-4 battle between South Florida and Central Florida will become a Big East conference game.
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Memphis.
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Total agreement OT. This go to my scenario events (upboard) of what will happen next. The B12N4 need to find home and fast and BE needs to protect themselves from the B10. This solves problems for both sides.
If they don’t get together:
BE could be imploded.
All 4 could be headed to MWC or Conf USA.
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Paul Tagliabue was hired as a consultant to the Big East to guide the league towards the establishment of a more vibrant and expansive Big East Network.
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I’m sorry, but is that a *20* team basketball conference now? 13 bids, anyone?
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Oh, they all get blowed out anyway. Most overrated BB schools ever.
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uh,..not
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Maybe lose the “Big East” moniker?
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This would be sweet . Seriously, this is a good confernece for BB and FB at this point. We need some friggin quality (non MAC, non I-AA) OOC opponents and blowing the teams down to 64 to make some 4 team playoff is too few.
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The suggestion is good, but this part of the article is hysterical:
“IN OTHER WORDS IF SOMEONE WANTS TO TALK TO THEM THEY ARE MORE THAN WILLING TO LISTEN.”
The Big East, just looking for someone who wants to talk to them.
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Regarding the possible ISU, KSU, KU, MU absorption into the Big East:
* How would you have this work for sports other than football? Would the 12 Big East football schools be a separate entity, and would they play the non-FB conference schools in basketball, and would it be a 20-team unit or divisions?
* With 20 members, the logistics would make it impossible to play everyone at least once in basketball, unless you went to a 20-game league schedule, as the Northeast Conference has done (and that league largely did it out of necessity because it was virtually impossible for them to get OOC home games against other Div I teams). Moreover, if Syracuse remains in a conference with Georgetown, it will demand a home-and-home, for example. How can you work that out?
* Also, it you divide strictly into east and west for hoops (likely forcing an eastern team such as South Florida into a western basketball schedule), how do you set up games so that KU and Missouri play some of the eastern powers like SU or Connecticut?
* This setup would shift the balance of power to the 12 football schools, which probably wouldn’t play well with Providence, Seton Hall and the like. Does the BE then enlarge by four more non-football members, just to keep things at 50-50? A clumsy elephantine hybrid would just get bigger and clumsier.
Were this expansion to take place, the new schools should demand strict autonomy from the non-football members if the 12-team conference couldn’t break away on its own (the optimum scenario).
While as a Cyclones fan I would like seeing them in a football conference such as this, there are simply too many inherent problems, too many potential logistical nightmares. It almost makes one wish the four would head to the Mountain West instead…at least that conference already has its own network.
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Problems are not inherent or intrinsic or overwhelming. It is a much better solution than joining the Mountain West. In BB, each team plays against 19 opponents. The BB BEast has expanded to an 18 game schedule anyway. It is clumsy but it would be watched by millions. Versus not clumsy with a tiny audience.
In football, ISU could play against your division (MO, KSU, KU, Cinn and Louisville), four games against the other division (USF, WVU, Pitt or RU or newbie) and three OOC. In addition, ND would discontinue football series against any BE team that left for the Big Ten (Pitt and/or RU) and would be willing to start a rotating home-and-home to take the place of Pitt and RU.
Again, it is just speculation. Still, it is interesting.
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Let’s see whether the Big East can pull off the annexation of the 4 Big 12 North schools.
If that were to happen, then the Big East will NOT have to worry about a raid from the Big Ten or the ACC (i.e. to take away Rutgers, Syracuse, UConn, Pitt, and/or West Virginia.)
The Big East can always pluck the likes of Central Florida from Conference USA to replenish itself if it were to lose Rutgers or Missouri in the future.
Cincinnati and Louisville reportedly are spearheading the Big East effort to annex the 4 Big 12 North schools.
One would have to suspect that the 4 Big 12 North Schools will pick the Big East (with a certain BCS automatic bid) over the Mountain West (which is still hoping to get into the BCS).
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Of course it would have to worry about a raid.
There are BCS haves and BCS have nots. The Pac-10 is a BCS have not; the Pac-16 is a BCS have.
The Big Ten is a BCS have, as is the SEC.
The ACC is a bit less of a have, but stable, while the Big East will never be a have.
Just getting 12 teams into the Big East doesn’t move the dial; you need teams that have brands that people follow. A Big East like that might make like $5M per team; sure that’s more than they do now, but nowhere near the big leagues of the BCS.
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So look at this now..
The Pac 16 gets to 16 first….
The BE gets to 16 with the “scraps”
The Big 10 moves to 16
The SEC moves to 16
the Big 12 gets eaten
the ACC is about to get eaten to feed the Big 16 and SEC 16!
Who had that in the realignment pool?
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Maryland’s move to the Big Ten is getting closer and closer…and UVa may be following the Terrapins.
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Source?
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ps you get the BIG 3 + the lesser 1 (who plays the best of whoever is left).
The Pac 16 winner plays the Big 10 winner in the Rose Bowl
The SEC winner plays the best of the rest in the Sugar Bowl
Rose Bowl Winner plays Sugar Bowl Winner for NC!
goodbye BCS, hello NC playoff!
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Realignment Pool? You mean I can make money out of this ‘hobby’?
I suppose I could also lose money………
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It’s beginning to sound like Texas overplayed its hand…Slive is in College Station and Oklahoma is listening to SEC as well.
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W,
My grandfather had a saying.. “there is room for the bears, and there is room for the bulls, but the hogs always get eaten”
anybody think texas just became the hog.
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Texas WAY OVERPLAYED its hand. UT wanted everything and now they could end up in the Pac-16 with nothing but TT and OSU. If that’s the case then you could all this an “F” for UT. I am going to laugh and enjoy the Texas Monthly article when it comes out.
Deloss Dodd the man who killed college football in Texas, destroyed one of the best rivalries in college football, put a major dent in the economy of Central Texas, probably created serious relationship issues with not one but two states and all over a damn Bevo Network. Nice going Elmer Fudd.
The only way this gets salvaged is he comes back EXTREMELY humble on Monday when the ADs meet and is willing to put alot of UT money on the table to keep the conference of 10 together.
However, I think KU, K-State, Mizz, and ISU are all out the door by then.
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If Texas is willing to stay, the rest of the B12 north isn’t going anywhere. Hurt feelings or no, no way would they prefer the Big East to a Big 12 which keeps Texas and Oklahoma.
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disagree. revenge is sweet and they know they can’t beat UT or OU on the gridiron, so f’em. that BEast looks pretty good.
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Big Ten will take Texas if they give up Bevo TV – can’t bring a Texas school with them either.
After all this still a decent shot at garnering Texas. Just have to see how everything plays out.
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The SEC would be stupid to take Oklahoma. That would push UT into the Big Ten. That’s right, if SEC somehow gets OK and aTm, it pushes the biggest fish out there into the hands of it’s biggest competitor the BT.
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hawkeye,
I hate to say it.. but if the SEC gets BOTH OU & A&M, does that open the door to UT to the SEC????
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Duffman,
DON’T EVEN SAY THAT (write that)! UT to the SEC IS THE NIGHTMARE SCENARIO.
JD would be in big trouble if that happens. There would be no way to close the gap with the SEC if UT jumps to the SEC. The BT would need 5 Notre Dames to compete with the SEC.
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@duffman – That is the one thing that the Big Ten would NEVER EVER want to see happen. It would be an epic failure on Jim Delany’s part. If the Big Ten can’t get Texas themselves, then the Pac-16 or a wounded Big 12 is where they want Texas to be.
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Duffman and Frank,
As I wrote above in this blog, the BT’s target has always been UT. Nebraska is a nice pick up but the BT didn’t put all this Big XII realignment in motion to pick up NU.
Even Jim Delany spoke about the growth of the south and “southern demographics.” You can bet JD wasn’t referring to Rice University or even Vandy.
The BT was taking a long shot because the only Texas school it really wanted was UT. So the risk was always high. But if UT goes to the SEC this is Armageddon.
IF aTm goes to the SEC, my position is that the BT lost out relative to the Pac 10 and to the SEC. NU would have been a great addition but the other conferences would have gained an advantage relative to the BT.
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Bingo.
If the SEC were to take Oklahoma at the last minute, the academic side of the University of Texas Board of Regents will attempt to stop Texas from going to the Pac- 10/14/16/whatever.
The academic faction of the University of Texas Board of Regents want Texas in the Big Ten.
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My point is that the SEC understads this and thus will not make an offer to OK.
The SEC wants to make sure that UT goes to the Pac not the BT.
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If the UT really wants to go to the Big 10 but was resigned to go to the Pac 10 in order to ‘take care’ of Texas Tech, then it is going all right for them.
If OU backs out, they can say they tried, but failed, and then go to the Big 10. I hope A&M is with them if that happens, but it’s looking a bit late in the game for that too happen.
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I really think UT will do anything to keep its “own” conference. UT is like the inverse of ND.
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The thing is, when the SWC fell apart, UT was trying to get into the Big 10 and Pac 10 without schools like Tech and OU.
A key difference, of course, was that they were doing worse on the field at the time (A&M did better throughout the 90s).
UT’s current administration is either being very concerned with politics, or being very short-sighted. Thinking the last decade will last forever isn’t smart thinking.
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you’re right from what i understand and i totally agree. i think now though they realize what they had in the B12 and want it to continue. they want their own fiefdom, in my view. they are indirectly pushing the aggies away.
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Duffman, I appreciate your posts.
I am not saying this Big Twelve refugees to the Big East will happen. But every one of these schools is led by bright people. The rule should be that the minute you say something to the effect of “poor Kansas, as it will play out they will be screwed and part of the Mountain West” — if you are right then Kansas will explore every creative option to ensure that the nightmare scenario does not happen — and curiously, by hurting Kansas so badly, you make previously unthinkable options look better. A 12 team Big East for football and a 20 team Big East in basketball will provide the “product” for a Big East Network.
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With great viewing during basketball season and a lot of who the hell cares during the football season. Adding some of the weak from the B12 to the weakest BCS conference makes for some boring programming.
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rich2,
the BE could possibly add 4 basketball schools and get to 24 with (2) 12 team divisions!
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rich2,
thanks, I feel like i have posted way too much today, but I have been so wound up since the Big 10 got Nebraska!
ps..
*puts on tinfoil hat*
as frank has been gone all day, maybe he is now one of the lawyers working on the paperwork to bring the Big Red into the Big 10 family!
*takes off tin foil hat*
😉
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Oh, just one more thing.
I received my bachelor’s degree at the University of Maryland, then attended Iowa State grad school for two years.
In a few years, Maryland could be in the Big Ten and Iowa State the Big East.
In the immortal words of Rich Ashburn (who somewhere is delighted to see his Cornhuskers in the Big Ten), “Hard to believe, Harry, hard to believe.”
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vincent,
that is beyond belief!
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AD says Texas still looking at ‘all options’
By JIM VERTUNO (AP) – 6 hours ago
AUSTIN, Texas — Texas is still “looking at all options” before deciding whether to stay in the crumbling Big 12 or move to another league, athletic director DeLoss Dodds said Saturday.
Dodds spoke outside of his stadium suite before Saturday’s Texas-TCU baseball game, but declined further comment on what those options are.
Dodds has said he wants to keep the Big 12 together. The Longhorns are considered the key to the league’s survival, particularly after it lost Nebraska (Big Ten) and Colorado (Pac-10) in a matter of two days this week.
The Texas regents have scheduled a meeting Tuesday for “discussion and appropriate action regarding athletic conference membership.”
An official at a Big 12 school with knowledge of the talks confirmed that Pac-10 commissioner Larry Scott was traveling to Texas and Oklahoma this weekend to present a case for Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to join the Pac-10.
The official requested anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the discussions.
Pac-10 officials did not immediately respond to e-mail messages seeking comment.
Texas President William Powers Jr. and football coach Mack Brown watched the baseball game from Dodds’ suite. Powers, when stopped in the stairwell of Disch-Falk Stadium, declined comment.
“I’m just watching the ball game guys,” Powers said.
Texas would need the regents’ approval to change leagues. Texas Tech has also scheduled a Tuesday regents meetings.
Texas A&M, which is reported to be considering a move to the Southeastern Conference, has not scheduled a regents meeting. Texas A&M President Bowen Loftin would not comment this week on speculation that A&M is considering moves to the SEC or the Pac-10, or say if the school was leaning toward one league over another.
Loftin said he would like A&M and Texas to continue their annual football rivalry, even if the teams end up in different leagues.
“We were very happy to stay in the Big 12, the way it was. It’s changing now,” Loftin said. “The Big 12 is not what it was, and we have to think about its future, and ours.”
The possible breakup of the Big 12, and the prospect of Baylor and Texas A&M not joining Texas in a new league, is causing some alarm at the Texas Capitol.
The House Higher Education Committee has scheduled a Wednesday meeting “to discuss matters pertaining to higher education, including collegiate athletics.”
Gov. Rick Perry, a Texas A&M graduate and former Aggie yell leader, has appointed every regent to the schools’ respective boards. But he said this week he is staying out of the conference decisions and would not try to influence what the schools do.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gSIp_LzMQWoK0_iuG8XhZGtpRbjQD9G9U31G0
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@michst8bball14 – All options are definitely open – I can tell you that much.
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thanks! that what I have been trying to convey! Texas has not made any kind of decision!
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What else can you tell us Frank? Maybe some hints at insider info without giving away more than you want? You know how we all love to speculate!!!
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@derek – I just know that there are a lot of people in Austin this weekend from several different places.
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Any people from Chicago there? 😉
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Who was it that tracked down that private jet from Chicago to Lincoln? Based on Frank’s hint we could start tracking incoming flights to Austin.
It could be a waste of time though. By now the interested parties could be using evasive maneuvers when heading to airports, wearing disguises, and travel could be a mixed itinerary of planes and trains and automobiles …. all to meet at a high-security safe house with guard dogs, barbed wire and armed patrols.
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‘The Texas regents have scheduled a meeting Tuesday for “discussion and appropriate action regarding athletic conference membership.”’
Appropriate action? Is Tuesday definitely decision day then?
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So many options, so much baggage…
Prima donna first lady of the stage!
Your devoteesare on their knees to implore you !
Can you bow out when they’re shouting your name?
Think of how they all adore you!
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Did you really just quote a song from Phantom of the Opera?
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Bottom line:
The only Big 12 member that will definitely get screwed out of the BCS cartel will be BAYLOR, which will have no choice but to apply for membership with Conference USA because:
1) the Pac-16 does not want Baylor,
2) the Big East does not want Baylor,
3) TCU will block the Mountain West from admitting Baylor
How’s that for payback, Ann Richards?
Who has the silver foot in her mouth now?
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I will repeat what I have said previously.
Everyone who was involved in that decision is either left, retired, or in the case of Ann Richards DEAD! Last time I checked TCU and SMU are in DFW and UH and Rice are sitting in Houston. Baylor is in WACO, which doesn’t have a lot going for it other then Baylor. What were they supposed to do?
Wanna blame somebody for the implosion of SWC and the lots of the four left behind look 100 miles south of Waco along 35 and exit in Austin. UT blew up the SWC: wow we lost Arkansas – game over, UT blew up the B12: oh Nebraska does want us to have a Bevo network – taking my ball and going home, and UT will blow up the Pac-16 – that I have no doubt.
Hurting Baylor doesn’t hurt one person who was involved in that decision, it just hurts the 200K people that live around Waco.
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Actually Oklahoma and Georgia blew up the SWC when they won that lawsuit against the NCAA. Interestingly enough, once the CFA went away, both OU and UGA went into historically long slumps. Both are finally out of it.
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and both were hit with pretty stiff probations
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Texas has had four schools in a single BCS conference due at least in part to the leadership shown by Ann Richards when she was governor. That solution has lasted about twenty years. Lord knows that if we had some politicians around this state now that could show half that competence in the current crisis, we’d be a lot better off. Right now it looks like we’re fixin’ to have us a college football disaster, with Texas and Texas Tech going west, A&M (maybe) going east and Baylor dropping off the map. Gee, glad we’re keeping that Austin/Lubbock rivalry alive between Texas and Texas Tech. There’s some high-powered political leadership… not.
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But—TCU gets to a BCS conference if the MWC gets promoted, and it almost certainly will, if the Big 12 goes completely away.
So Texas has at least the same number of schools at the BCS level that it had before. And it’s a healthier set of conferences…Baylor had no business being at the highest level. TCU will have a better chance to win the MWC and get to a BCS bowl than Baylor ever did in the Big 12.
Also, Texas can increase the number of BCS schools over the next few years. If the MWC looks to expand to 12 teams or more, both Houston and Baylor would be possibilities. Either of those schools might be competitive in that conference.
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If you think the MWC is getting a bid, you are living in a dream world Ag. Pac 16 + B10/16 + BE + ACC + SEC/14/16 keeps MWC on the outside looking in when it comes to the BCS especially if Utah moves to Pac-16.
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I rather like a politician who keeps his/her nose out of where it does not belong, you know sorta like the principles on which this ountry were founded!
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TCU shouldn’t count its chickens before they hatch. If they are trying to blackball Baylor, they should think of Missouri. As you say-what comes around…
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/06/10/2012536/officials-from-five-big-12-schools.html
Maybe Baylor blackballs TCU.
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Interesting subnote, TCU was originally in Waco and TCU/Baylor was the 3rd most played series in the country before the breakup of the SWC.
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The WAC will have an open slot for Baylor…
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Fairly close partner to Louisiana Tech, which is of course where Kim Mulkey played.
Somehow, though, I believe Baylor would prefer another option…
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I find it funny that A&M can be paid more conference money in the SEC than Texas would get in the Pac 16.
Question though, If I am Texas, why not try to keep the Big 12 together for a year, see what kind of deal you get in the TV negotiations and make decision then. The flight risks are gone. Add a few and move on. Granted Pac 10 has their deal coming up soon, but why not at least see what they can get?
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Not like we want to see this, but at this point it would be funny if now UT wanted to piggyback into the SEC with A&M!
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PS.. UF just beat Miami again this year for a shot to the World Series.. Gators are Omaha bound. Makes you wonder if the AD for both schools were there, and if they had anything to say to each other.
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Yeah, Texas ego is too big (that is why I like them)… they would go to Big Ten first.
Funny thought though.
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Texas still has all 5 options on the table. Independence was always a lousy option (eventually ND will understand that), and the B12 is probably lousy at this point, but the other 3 are there.
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The three are still there, but their desirability is in a state of flux for Texas. Their are some indications that OU and A&M could wander off the Texas reservation to the SEC. If that happens, the Pac 16 option becomes a lot less appealing, probably the 6 become CU, KU, TT, OSU, UU and UT. Two schools solidly in the Texas orbit, but probably a 3-3 split on anything contentious to the old members of the Pac 10. Political neutralization. Suddenly not so great an option for Texas. The SEC option is still there, but from what I gather that’s a bloodbath waiting to happen. Angry academics and Mack Brown knowing the path to an NC would become exponentially more difficult going through the snakepits of the SEC compared to the social outings of the west coast. If that becomes an extended stalemate, one thing I know from just a few weeks of Nebraska’s rumored move, at some point people simply weary of it and simply want to get things resolved. And resolution for Texas, by themselves, is but a phone call away.
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As Tuberville noted, recruiting is very different there. That’s where the real bloodbath is. And it makes the old SWC look nice and clean. UT doesn’t want the 80s SWC redo. Also doesn’t want to compete with schools who worship a coach who brings in armed robbers to play on the fb team (at least until he moved to LA).
Competitively SEC + B12 4 wouldn’t be any different from P16 or B10+6 or much different from B12. MSU=Baylor, Miss=OSU or TT, LSU=Nebraska, Pigs=Missouri. Alabama and Auburn would be moved east.
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No offense, but have you seen the team speed of a Mississippi, for just one, middle-of-the-pack, SEC example? Have you seen the atmosphere at almost any SEC stadium? Do you realize that Stanford just remodeled their stadium and reduced seating capacity? And not just by a little bit. Outside of USC, there is absolutely no comparison between the Pac 10 and the SEC. Everybody in the SEC will be lying in wait to put some lumps on Texas.
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Have you seen the team speed of any Pac10 team other than USC? Probably not. They don’t get many games on at reasonable hours. That’s why they’re last in TV revenues, even behind the BE. P10 is much underrated. I just happen to like those 9 pm games, so I watch them some. SEC is good, but definitely not underrated. There’s not as big a gap between SEC and rest of country as they would have you believe.
I agree P10 atmosphere isn’t SEC.
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Okay, if you say so. That’s why any Texas-centric thread elsewhere concerning going to the SEC has a good portion of the posters questioning why making the road harder is a good idea. I don’t see those concerns with the Pac 10. Entertain whatever fantasies you want about the SEC, their champion just laid Texas out not too long ago.
Here’s another point of view that should be required reading for Longhorns:
http://forum.tidesports.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5525
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Get that nonsense all the time. I live in SEC country. If you had told me Texas would be within 3 with 3 minutes to go w/o McCoy I would have laughed. If you had told any SEC fan Texas would be within 3 with 3 minutes to go with McCoy they would have laughed.
And I do think the B10 would be crazy to go to 14 with Texas and ND. With 6 of the top 9 programs of all time it would be too tough. With 16 it may be ok.
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Nebraska to the Big Ten. Colorado to the Pac-10. Two very safe moves have been made in double chess, and just look a the resulting chaos!
Some proud institutions will be making some significant compromises in order to find a safe place to land. Mistakes will be made as their options narrow.
I feel pretty comfortable knowing the Big Ten has a large head start planning for this day.
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And we’re still in the middle game. Endgame doesn’t come until B12 pieces are all off the table. Of course, that may happen next week.
So who’s a better salesman, Slive or Scott? Scott in 5 places trying to close the deal, Slive also in College Station and calling up Norman and Austin.
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The more I hear about the SEC wiggling itself into the discussion of bringing in the remaining Big 12 schools, the better I feel about Texas coming to the Big Ten. So keep up the SEC speculation!!!
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But does anyone think that the SEC is that, er, ugh, stupid?
The SEC knows that it can only invite aTm. If it takes anymore schools it will drive UT to the BT. and the SEC doesn’t want that.
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This is actually fairly true.
I mean Slive has to know that he’s only going to really get A&M in order to keep the Pac-16 in tact.
I think he’s only talking to OU as a way of getting UT to consider the SEC more. He might think he can swing all 3 and then just grab Tech as the 4th.
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I don’t feel comfortable about this at all. What the SEC wants, the SEC usually gets.
The more TX politics factor into the equation, the worse the BT will do. And Powers seems to be no fan of the BT–remember the comment about not wanting to send the women’s softball team north to play…………?
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More to the point—if the SEC invited A&M, OK, and Tech to the SEC, how could TX go to the BT rather than the SEC?
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Maybe a small point. Entities such as UT and ND have to find their way. They’re so used to being prima donnas and/or big dogs that to accept what is truly a wonderful opportunity (joining the Big Ten) requires a ‘seismic shift’ (as opposed to “we’re comfortable with Option XX…how arrogant is that!!).
Yet, all the squirming, posturing and angst Texas is showing might just be the necessary path. If indeed, they are ‘exploring all options’, knowing that we have by far the best all-round product available, if they belong, they will find their way. At least that’s what I’m hoping.
Has anyone else been intrigued by how little direct commentary there’s been on the Big Ten option by the UT powers that be? It would have been so easy to say “not a consideration”. Hasn’t happened, and I won’t believe it will happen til the Pac-16 documents are signed.
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I don’t think they’re willing to discuss it because the Pac-16 is the right option as long as A&M or OU is coming along for the ride…
You don’t really want to tip the boat by considering a second option too openly if it causes both to bolt. Now A&M seems as if it’s going to the SEC, but OU still seems to be in mostly lockstep with UT.
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I agree, Zeek. I’m just saying with all the political pressures and historic ties, IF there was a path to the Big Ten, perhaps this is necessarily what it has to resemble. That’s not the same as saying I think it’s going to happen, but I do think it’s being a lot more strongly considered that the mainstream media would have you believe. They’ve completely ignored the comments of ND and UT that they are of ‘like mind’. The only option under which that seemingly falls would be independence or joint residency in the Big Ten.
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In the end, Texas is going to go where they are in control. The new PAC16 is going to be like two conferences – the old PAC8 and the new SWC. There will be little or no fit between the two except for two or three intra-conference games each year. IMO, the BIG10 is doing it the right way. Get the teams that “fit” best. Everything else will fall into place and 50 years from now the Big? will still be the most respected conference in the country when you combine academics, athletics and loyalty.
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I find it amazing that more Big Ten and Texas talks haven’t been mentioned in the media. Academically, it is a no brainer that Texas would want to join the Big Ten. Monetarily, it is a no brainer that Texas would want to join the Big Ten. Geography, while a contributing factor, is way over-rated in expansion talks I believe. The only possible things I can think of holding Texas from the Big Ten is politics, ego, culture, and athletic competitiveness. You would think the Texas higher-ups could set aside their egos for the sake of bettering their institution. I’ve never been to Texas, but I don’t see the culture being THAT much different than the Midwest…certainly closer than that of Cali. Does Texas really feel the political burden of having to find a home for its old Big 12 friends that badly? Or do they find the competitiveness of the Pac-10 and SEC sports that much better than the Big 10? I am 100% biased, but a lot of the reasons to join the Big Ten are just cold-hard facts.
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Geography is a big part to a successful Texas. That and bringing along reliable votes.
UT alone joining the Big Ten is such a long shot because they would barely have any say. They’d be the equal of every other institution.
They go to the Pac-10 with Tech/OU/OSU as reliable votes and probably a thankful Kansas (if it’s Kansas as the 5th).
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roger that.
focus on ND, TX is not happening.
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also, i don’t have any inside info, but i don’t see TX as any kind of road to ND. ND is by far and away more east-coast based.
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@jj – I disagree with that. Texas is by far the biggest carrot that can be offered to Notre Dame (and vice versa). ND’s recruiting inroads on the East Coast and West Coast are rock solid. Its main focus of growth is Texas, which is why the Irish have been scheduling “neutral site” games there.
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disclosure: i’m biased, i don’t want TX.
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Disclosure II: I’m also biased, don’t want TX. However, listening to Delany at the UNL presser on Friday, sounds to me like he really meant it when he said they were focusing on integration of Nebraska. Yes, he restated the “12-18 month” timeframe but didn’t sound enthusiastic about bringing anyone else on board.
I believe Delany had target fixation on ND and when that wasn’t happening, I think UNL became an immediate option. If you listened to the presser, Delany talked a lot about “fit” and based on everything he mentioned, ND and TX would have been poor “fits” either due to university profile (ND) or geography/unwillingness to integrate equally (TX).
I think the target fixation with ND continues, this will manifest itself with an expansion “cooling off” period for the Big Ten of a couple years, revisit ND if Kelly bombs as coach and/or NBC TV contract becomes less lucrative.
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Put yourself in another school’s shoes. Would Ohio State ever make a move to a new conference without getting everything they want?
Neither would Texas.
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This is also why we would make a mistake of focusing on UNC.
UNC is the Texas or USC of the ACC with its other 3 ACC North Carolina schools.
You just can’t crack something like that unless you merge essentially.
But the ones more to the north might be more willing to bolt together.
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Problem is for Texas, if independence isn’t an option, and nobody really thinks it is, then you have to get along with a conference. You can’t line up a dozen soap scrimmages, so they can’t get everything they want. It’s the primary reason the wheels fell off the Big 12, there was nothing more that could be given that would keep them happy.
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also, you don’t want someone that will leave you and create problems later. i know NE just “left”, but that was weird and they “left” the minute they took on the SWC fallout & co . These decisions should not be made lightly. I see about 6-8 schools max that “fit”. NE was a fit. Great move. Nice job Jim.
i really don’t buy anyone but:
ND
MD
Pitt
Rut
Syr
BC – with ND
Virginia
Navy – with ND
Toronto
i’m sure there are others that might work – GA Tech, Mizzou, Kansas, ISU, but some of this talk is just nuts. Cornell makes more sense than some of the ideas being floated around – seriously.
you can always do a join venture on a cable network for extra moneymaking. you don’t need to add everyone to the B10 to make money. in fact you need some other leagues that work. this is not a zero sum game – like chess (sorry frank!).
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So take two more for now — probably Rutgers and Maryland to give you at least partial access to the New York and Washington markets — and tell Notre Dame, we’ll leave space for you at #15 and let you choose #16 from a list of AAU schools we furnish (likely Pittsburgh, Syracuse or Virginia).
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Spoken with a ‘northern’ bias: I’ve lived in Texas for 6 years after a life mostly in Chicago. Being in the state of Texas truly is like being in a different country and really isn’t that ‘southern’. It’s not better or worse, just different. Speaking as a Chicagoan, TAMU is ‘southern’ but UT isn’t. Gotta admit, the way those two group go at each other is great.
Associating with UT types is definitely more like dealing with Big Ten types than most people seem to understand or want to believe. At the highest levels of excellence, we share the same aspirations, work ethics and commitment to that excellence. Being a spec of blue (Austin) in a see of red (Texas) is not an easy existence, and thus UT isn’t as ‘free’ as it might want to be to follow it’s own path. It’s not a red or blue consideration as much as it is an anti-Yankee thing (even though Chicagoans hate ‘Yankees’ too, as in Chicago vs NY!). Every single one of my UT friends things it would be GREAT to battle with the Big Ten. Every single one of my TAMU friends thinks the idea is nuts.
One of the more underappreciated ‘gets’ that could result out of this is a bridging of a lot of the cultural gap that exists between Texas and the North that would result by a Big Ten becoming a common rooting group for all involved. Sports has always proven to be a moderator of biases and misperceptions being otherwise different groups. Here’s hoping.
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@Big Ten Jeff, great post! Think one thing that’s getting overlooked is that the first choice for Texas was probably the Big Ten while the first choice for Texas A&M was probably always the SEC. UT has worked hard to put together a compromise package to bring itself (and a number of other Oklahoma and Texas teams, including TAMU) to the PAC. They see this as a way to preserve the Texas/Texas A&M rivalry in a way that preserves everyone’s pride. Unfortunately, a lot of Texas A&M partisans seem to look at this as a great chance to snub Texas, which seems incredibly short-sighted. Texas A&M has built themselves a great university over the years and now it seems some want to throw away the credibility they’ve gained to join a football-over-academics conference like the SEC.
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This is a late follow-up, but thanks B10Jeff for this post. I grew up in TX, have degrees from Baylor and Michigan, and have lived in Ohio for 20+years, and I think you have very accurately described the cultures involved. That is why I believe UT would NEVER go to the SEC and A&M might. This is no criticism, but the student/campus culture in College Station is fundamentally different from Austin, which is much more like Ann Arbor or Madison, despite the litany of differences one could recite.
When this began, I thought UT to the B10 would be a fabulous outcome for all involved; now I don’t think there is a snowball’s chance. But I think the chance of UT going to the SEC is far less than that. I am still hoping for what you are hoping for, though.
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“The only possible things I can think of holding Texas from the Big Ten is politics, ego, culture, and athletic competitiveness.”
Well yeah, other than that its a slam dunk…see BXII and Southwest Conf 🙂 LOL
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This is all intriguing, but I have a feeling it will all lead to Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Texas Tech joining Colorado in a Pac 16…as has been reported for a while. A&M probably is playing the Pac 10 off of the SEC, so they don’t get totally buried by Texas’s demands in the new Pac 16.
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Those of you who are focusing on whether or not this expansion has been successful are not asking the right question. Instead of “Has the Big Ten improved its relative position to the other conferences?” the correct question is “Has the Big Ten improved its position?”. In other words, as a proportion of all the activities one might choose to do on a Saturday, are more people going to be watching Big Ten football than before? Similarly, as a proportion of all places to go to undergraduate school/grad school/be a professor/sponsor research, are people more likely to choose a Big Ten school? The answer to the first question is a definite yes, while the answer to the second is that its probably about the same (at least pro rata).
From this perspective, there are only two places Texas can end up: in the Big Ten, or not in the Big Ten. If they are not in the Big Ten, it does not particularly matter where they go.
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M,
Oh, NO, I totally disagree.
Everything is measures relative to your competition: in both business and sports. And this expansion is about both business in sports.
For example, if Ohio State scores 28 points in the first half, great, it did well, but if it ends up losing to Minnesota 40 to 35, it didn’t do good at all. The Same applies to business, if I meet a quota and sell X number of pizzas, great, but if my competitor sells more and gains market share I lost out. In both cases heads would roll and tactics would be changed.
Its the same with expansion, even more so because there is no going back. Once UT is gone there are no other major options left in the state of Texas. Texas is gone to the competition. Gone for 10 or 30 years.
So, especially since the BT initiated expansion, everything it achieves is measured against the gain of it’s competition.
(Although, I must say I like your ‘theory’ as it applies to individuals life decisions in a philosophic, Zen, sort of way….)
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@Hawkeye / Gator Boy says
My point is that it does not matter particularly where Texas goes if not the Big Ten. Either Texas is a competitor against the Big Ten or it is part of the Big Ten.
If you would like an economic metaphor, suppose you have several competitors for your pizza business and a customer Joe. The only two distinct outcomes that matter are “Joe bought a pizza from me” or “Joe did not buy a pizza from me”. It doesn’t particularly matter to you if Joe bought a pizza from someone else, decided to order sushi, or went on a hunger strike. In terms of your business, it is all the same: a missed opportunity for a pizza sale.
Businesses make bad decisions because of this fallacy all of the time. They focus on improving their station relative to another company but fail to do things like improving the overall size of the market.
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M:
I do like your “pizza customer Joe” analogy, and agree with it. I would also say that the Big Ten should only acquire the teams that best fit the BT. So if Georgia Tech is not a fit than the BT dos not pursue GT even if that team is the key school for the SEC. (By the way, that’s way all these arguments about getting teams in the BT only to “force ND’s hand are silly). Above all you want institutions in your conference that make sense, i.e. you only care if “Joe bought a pizza from you”. So, I can agree to an extent with your philosophy.
But, I do think that the BT is very keen on where UT lands, or if another competitor absorbs UT.
Business are always concerned about the strategy of their competition and react to it. If Pizza Hut build new franchises down the street from my pizza establishment, I must react or in the long run I will lose business. Even if I concentrate only on my pizza and I make the best pizza, my buiness may only grow at 5% whereas if I can keep the new pizza parlors at a distance my growth rate will be higher.
Real life example: we all know that Microsoft keeps a keen eye out on what the competition is doing. If Yahoo is getting into the browser business Microsoft doesn’t keep making good software, it reacts to Yahoo’s new business threat.
As for UT, the Pac 10 is weaker; and the SEC is the BT’s main competition in football (BT plays at least 3 bowl games against the SEC) and what’s more important the viewership is all in the same time zones, no argument that the SEC is our biggest competition for TV sets. So, if UT (the biggest fish) goes to our biggest competitor the loss is more challenging than if it joins a secondary competitor.
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Thoughts on UT, A&M, and OU….
Been reading the A&M boards, OU does not sound like a big deal to them
Been reading the OU boards, UT meant the world to them
a) Big 12 stays together, slim to none
b) UT, A&M, TT, OU, OSU go west, possible
c) same as above, but A&M goes to SEC, more possible
d) A&M and OU go to SEC, less possible (SEC = NO OSU)
e) UT and A&M go to SEC, worst for Big 10
f) UT and A&M go to Big 10, not probable (A&M says NO)
g) UT goes B 10, A&M goes SEC, doubtful as Pac 16 deals fails
any other possibilities for UT Frank?
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Noone is saying UT/A&M/OU/TT or OSU to SEC. I wonder if A) economics isn’t there; B) SEC is keeping its cards close; or C) SEC is too confident in its position to move quickly like the P10 did.
P10 is playing their realtively weak hand well. They took CU before Baylor caused problems and now are trying to close the deal with at least 4 others before the SEC has fully ramped up its efforts.
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I think the SEC would really prefer to split it’s expansion east and west, if possible, so as not to take in a unified block that might create friction on conference matter. If you took four Big XII teams, it’s only a matter of time before they start wanting the CCG at JerryWorld, the basketball tournament played some place west of Atlanta, etc.
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With the SEC historic ties, adding 4 to the west makes sense. Auburn actually wanted in the east with long ties to UGA and Florida. Alabama has 2 serious rivals-Auburn and Tennessee. The MS schools have faded in significance. Ole Miss is the only West school not to win a division championship. They had 2 big rivalries with eastern schools-TN and UGA. TN dropped it before SEC switched to only 1 annual rival from the other division. UGA dropped them when they switched to 5-1-2. Noone cares about Arkansas and both them and LSU would be happy with TX opponents (although I’m sure LSU would miss Alabama).
Adding 2 each side separates schools that have had long ties with each other. That’s why the P16 addition works as well as a 16 team league can work. I wouldn’t dismiss the MWC philosophy. You have to have rivalries-games your fans care about. That’s one of the reasons the SEC works so well. I know UGA hates just about everyone they play.
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I’m pretty sure Miss State has never won a division title…at least not in football, which is what I presume you were referring to.
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Miss State won the SEC West in 1998.
Ole Miss is the only Western Division team that hasn’t played in the SEC CG, but they have tied for division championship on at least one occasion, and have a banner in their stadium to prove it.
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Doesn’t Tennessee have a banner in its stadium to “prove” they have won every national championship that Alabama doesn’t already claim?
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How about this for a possibility? Scott is inviting Oklahoma unconditionally… but Texas Tech and Oklahoma St. and hinged to Texas. If Texas comes, the other schools will agree to accept Texas Tech, Oklahoma St…. and Utah to make 16. However, if Texas does not come, they stop at 12.
Assuming Texas skips the Pac 10 and goes to the Big 10, then the SEC could take A&M, Oklahoma St., Kansas, and either Kansas St. or Missouri. Packaged with LSU, Arkansas, Vandy, and Tennessee to be the “Northwest side” of the conference, with Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, Florida, Mississippi schools, SC, and Kentucky. Seems a bit heavier on this latter side, but how else do you divide it?
As a Big East guy, I would rather the Big 10 take Notre Dame, Texas, A&M, and Missouri… leaving the Big East alone until the ACC decides to expand or is raided–which may never happen. Who knows where this is headed?
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Frank, have you heard on how quickly Delany plans to switch his focus to the ACC once the Texas story is done on Tuesday?
I’d imagine he sees UNC as another Texas-sized pickup but that Maryland/Va may be more easy to pull after witnessing what the Texas-sweepstakes were like.
Of course UNC only has two possibilities: staying in the ACC or going to the Big Ten, so it’s more likely that they’d just stay regardless of what the Big Ten does…
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@zeek – I think Maryland would be the most realistic target from the ACC. However, I’ll reiterate that I’m skeptical of the ACC getting poached in general. That’s a fairly tight set of schools with similar academic standards.
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Oh heck…things may have just got a lot more interesting.
http://www.ktbs.com/video/23866126/index.html
Josh Heuphel at the Independence Bowl dinner this evening when asked about realignment said he received an text from Cale Gundy, OU running back coach that they are headed to the SEC.
Take it with a grain of salt, but as the upboard comments just got a lot more crazy.
Ok Big 10 folks if OU goes to the SEC your Best Case Scenario UT in the B10 and Armageddon SEC claims OU, UT, aTm, and either Tech or OSU or VT would both be in play.
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That story above is several days old and is woefully outdated.
==
OU issued a press release on Saturday to acknowledge that OU has met with Pac-10 Commissioner Larry Scott.
OU regents will meet on Wednesday to discuss the Pac-10 invitation.
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Sorry about that. Just read another board and apparently Heuphel was joking. ha, ha, ha. Like I said, grain of salt. I’m having a hard time believing anything coming out of the B12 at this point.
Think its time for bed.
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I look at Texas like this. If they aren’t going to the PAC-11 then they are going to the Big Ten. I just don’t see SEC as an option for them.
But from prior reports wasn’t OU the school trying to keep the Big 12 intact…more so than anyone else? This rumor seems to contradict that.
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Very good stuff in here.Reading it like watch flags blowing in the wind though.
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I think the Monday meeting is Beebe’s last chance to convince the Pac 5 to be to stay. The lineup of UT 11 am Tuesday, TT 2pm Tuesday, OU Wednesday and OSU Friday reads like a win for Scott and the P10. I think we’ll hear Monday what’s happening.
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If Oklahoma agrees to the SEC, I think that would mean they’ll bring Oklahoma State along, otherwise the Cowboys run the risk of being left in the cold, which I’m sure is unpalatable in the Oklahoma legislature.
So . . . what would UT do then? Well, at first, my answer was, of course, this would be their “out” to the Big Ten. But now I’m not so sure. See, Texas thrives on having Texas recruiting locked down. But if A&M, OU, and OSU all head for the SEC, while Texas goes it alone up NORTH to the Big Ten, I think Texas might correctly view that as highly problematic from a recruiting standpoint, which might also drive them to the SEC.
Call it Delany’s nightmare.
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Just read an article in the Baltimore Sun about Maryland and the Big Ten. Most of the Maryland fans posting to it were in favor of Maryland going, saying that the Terps hadn’t had a real rivalry since they’d stopped playing Penn State and that most of the teams in the ACC considered the Terps “northerners,” while Boston College considered them “southerners.” Only three posters said no way to the BT, while about ten said the Terps would be fools to say no. Three or four others said the BT wouldn’t want them. Several expressed fears of SEC raids on the ACC. It was so different from reading the Domers’ posts, with their pure antagonism toward joining a conference.
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Sorry, forgot the link: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/2010/06/yow_we_are_happy_in_the_acc.html
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Much the same from the Terp fans in this article from May 18: http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/maryland_terps/blog/2010/05/maryland_has_had_no_contact_with_big_ten.html
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There is currently a 91-page Conference Expansion thread at…
http://www.insidemdsports.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3
The thread starts kind of slow and there is a helluva lot of trash to wade through. But for this small faction of the fan base, support for a move to the Big Ten is surprisingly strong. And it appears to grow stronger as the instability of conference affiliations becomes more obvious (latter part of thread).
So far all public statements by Maryland officials have been in strong support of ACC solidarity. That is certainly understandable. Who would want to be Missouri right now?
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http://www.testudotimes.com/2010/6/12/1514370/summarizing-the-pros-and-cons-of
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Wow. These are some crazy links. It’s really nice to get that reaffirmation. I’ve consistently maintained that the demand for the Big Ten is untapped and greater than suspected. I wonder if UVa feels that way? Anyone on top of it?
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Can’t speak for UVa, but from a Maryland perspective there has been an element of the fan base that is frankly embarrassed by those who are overly obsessed with the Duke (and, to a lesser extent, North Carolina) basketball games. We believe the university has much more to offer, both in sports and in academics, and we get tired of the riots along U.S. 1. Not to say riots wouldn’t stop were Maryland to enter the Big Ten — heck, they’ve plagued the likes of Purdue and Michigan State in recent years, too — but many Terrapin fans see the forest for the trees and realize that to be chained to ACC basketball could consign the university to second-class athletic status sooner than you think.
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I have looked at various Virginia boards to check the pulse too. Unlike the Maryland fans I have found little evidence the Cavaliers fans have the Big Ten on their radar. What talk there has been has focused on ACC preservation. Most of this discussion has followed one of three themes:
1. There is a lot of speculation Virginia Tech may succumb to their football-centric mindset and flee to the SEC if offered. When this possibility is discussed, Virginia fans tend to rehash the legislature’s role in forcing their vote for Virginia Tech (over the Tobacco Road favorite, Syracuse) in the last ACC expansion. Virginia Tech had sought entry to the ACC for decades, and only made it in when Virginia relented to state political pressure. If Virginia Tech were to leave so soon you can expect a major uproar.
2. Additional discussion centers on the likelihood various ACC “football” schools would forsake ACC loyalty and academic standards for the chance to join the SEC (Va Tech, Florida St., Clemson and Georgia Tech).
3. The third theme of discussion usually focuses on the relative merits of ACC expansion candidates in the Big East if there is a need to replace members.
This pattern of discussion reinforces the notion Virginia remains strongly aligned with Tobacco Road (you will find the nearly identical chatter at the message boards of those schools). Perhaps that could change, but additional chess moves would be needed to disrupt the board and unlock the Virginia option for the Big Ten.
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Add. [I don’t think I ever got an email that a new thread was started? I thought something was wrong with my email heh]
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si.com column by Andy Staples:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/andy_staples/06/12/expansion.saturday/index.html
Andy Staples does NOT believe OU will be going to the SEC at this point.
==
Utah appears to be the 16th member of the Pac-16 if Texas A&M goes to the SEC.
That means the Mountain West would have gotten Boise State to replace Utah. That will NOT be good enough for the Mountain West to get a BCS automatic bid.
The Big East needs to move to close the deal to add Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, and (likely) Iowa State (unless Memphis buys its way into the Big East) before the Mountain West tries a desperate move to try to steal that BCS auto bid away from the Big East.
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Missouri is probably best served by waiting to see if the BT or SEC wants them. Not that likely, but you never know. The Big East is on the verge of implosion, so why commit to them? The Big East’s best bet might be to boot Notre Dame out, leaving ND homeless for all their non-football sports, which might take some of the pressure off the Big Ten, who probably wants to destabilize the BE to shake ND loose. The BE might even want to use booting ND as a bargaining chip to the BT, telling Delany that if he promises to limit his raid on the BE, they’ll release ND. All the BE would have to do is to give ND the ultimatum, all in or all out, and ND would leave on its own.
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The Big East may indeed split apart into two leagues.
The FBS-playing schools in the Big East, led by Cincinnati and Louisville, want the Big East to annex the 4 Big 12 North schools NOW so that the Big East will have a 12-team FBS football league, regardless of whether the other 8 Big East members (including Notre Dame) split off to for a new league or not and regardless of whether the Big Ten decides to poach Rutgers or not.
The Georgetown/Villanova/Providence faction (non-FBS schools in the Big East) might be better off splitting off if (and that is a big if) they can convince Notre Dame to go with them (Depaul and Marquette will follow). Otherwise, they would be better off staying in a 20-team basketball league.
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Serious question: can you have a twenty team basketball league?
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In the last few blogs, I have read many times the idea of BE kicking ND out of the BE to appease the mighty Big Ten war god. I have a few starter questions…and this “promise” by Delany not to raid the BE if BE agrees to boot out ND — is it a legally binding contract? approved by the presidents of the Big Ten and by the presidents of the BE? Is it binding on the next commissioner of the Big Ten and the BE?
If the BE verbally told you, as Jim Delany, that the BE would agree to this coordinated action if you agreed in writing — would you send a signed offer to a BE office? If you declined, why would the BE “trust” your word? Delany cannot make this offer on his own — the presidents would have to approve. How would you keep it quiet when 20+ schools’ “core administrative group” know about it? If executed effectively, what would be the reaction politically and among the general public if this agreement became public (at least 100-150 people would know about this agreement)?
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Don’t worry about it– it’s complete fiction. The promise never happened.
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Change in tone from Chip Brown?
The cover story at the main page of Texas Longhorns Football: Orangebloods.com for the last 24 hours or so had been “Pac-10, Here We Come”. I recently visited the site, and the cover story is now “SEC Makes Its Move”, and the article
iswas entitled “A&M leaning SEC; What’s Next for Texas?”.Why is Chip asking “What’s Next for Texas?”? I thought “Texas off to the Pac-10” was a done deal?
(I changed “is” to “was” above because I just refreshed the page and it now says “The selected item does not exist or has been deleted.”. It has been replaced by a similar article entitled “SEC and A&M heating up as Beebe tries to save Big 12”. Weird. “What’s Next for Texas?” has been removed.)
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Couple of Texas articles quoting sources indicating 4 to Pac 10 is done deal. Both say A&M is undecided. Austin quote about it being a done deal is a day old, but Houston comment appears recent.
http://www.americanstatesmen.com/news/local/ut-tech-to-join-pac-10-742900.html
Houston article: about midway down the UT official (referring to board meeting to discuss conference alignment) chuckles and says there’s not much to discuss. Deloss Dodds was quoted in the next line saying all options were still open leading one to believe (intentionally?) that the 1st quote was not Dodds. I like Solomon’s last line, “I guess in the future UT and A&M fans can just compare TV ratings.”
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mtl/college/texas/7049427.html
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Nielson has an interesting article out on the state of sports with respect to the internet and TV in this interesting pamphlet.
Click to access FaceOfSports_US_rpt.pdf
The common belief is that there is money to be made off of TV deals with respect to contracts with programmers like ESPN/ABC/CBS as well as advertising sales. Football drives viewership and therefore demand (see page 10 of above link). The top 10 local NCAA football markets for national broadcasts on networks were for 2010:
Market HH Rating
1) Birmingham, AL 13.4
2) Columbus, OH 10.8
3) Oklahoma City 9.6
4) Austin 8.6
5) Knoxville 8.6
6) Dayton 7.9
7) Tulsa 7.9
8) Jacksonville 7.6
9) New Orleans 7.6
10) Atlanta 7.1
Georgia Tech may be a better team to pursue than I first thought. Even though that wasn’t the reason why I went digging for ratings, it’s a big takeaway for me. There is no breakdown though for whether those were SEC games or ACC or even if the market would support the BTN but it’s interesting nonetheless.
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What I take from those numbers is that Oklahoma is seriously underrated as a player in all this. OKC does have an NBA team, after all.
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People have to understand, when looking at numbers like these: Is there any direct head-to-head competition for the fans dollar in these markets? AND who/what is the biggest draw?
For example, in my home state (Minnesota), the University of Minnesota main campus in in Minneapolis-St Paul. The Twin Cities metro population is approx 3.2 million. The Twin Cities host all 4 major pro sports. Football-wise, the U competes with the Vikings, the Twins (thru Oct), the Wild, and the U hockey (which is #1 draw for U of M sports). On this ladder, the Vikings OWN Mpls-St Paul with the Twins #2, Gopher Hockey/Wild Hockey #3, Gopher Football/Basketball #4, T-wolves (nobody cares). This does not include the many other smaller colleges/universities throughout the metro area and state–one, in my back yard St Cloud State has over 17,000 students (another large campus).
The Twin Cities are a lot like Denver, NYC, Chicago, Pittsburgh…, where the pro teams own the largest market share. The college programs have to be very good to stellar to take away market share.
It should be noted that prior to the Vikings and Twins arriving in 1961, the Gophers were the big game in town. Very interesting that the U’s last (of 6) national titles was in 1960…
Cities like Columbus, Austin, Birmingham, Knoxville, Lincoln, OK City… are OWNED by the respective large university in their backyard because they compete directly with NO major player. Don’t even bring up the Bluejackets or whatever OK City’s BB team is. One could maybe argue NASCAR, but, the races are NOT always in these cities’ backyard.
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That’s why I was so surprised to see Atlanta in the top 10. Atlanta has the Braves, Falcons, Thrashers, Hawks and a major Nascar race track.
I am not surprised to see cities with a major college and far fewer pro options score well. For what it’s worth, the Orange Bowl had a US share of 6.8. The Sugar Bowl had an 8.5 and the Fiesta Bowl an 8.2. So in Atlanta, college football scores impressively high.
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UGA is dominant team in Atlanta. Athens is only about an hour and 15 minutes from downtown Atlanta. Lots of SEC grads work in Atlanta. GT is relatively small like most ACC schools. About 20,000 students, but most of that growth is recent. They were around 12k for many years.
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I only waded through 600-700 of these comments…sorry to be slacking. That said…
While it does seem likely that the PAC16 thing happens, I have to wonder if it’s really going to happen all at once.
To reset the clock a bit, Colorado to the PAC10 was in the works since spring. The news broke of PAC10 explosion…a week later, Colorado was the sole entry. The Colorado addition made everyone believe there was fire behind the smoke (PAC16 for real?).
Now, they are in Oklahoma. Again, if the PAC10 is deadset for expansion, OU would be a great catch. Geographically, it’s close. Football-wise it’s a hit! (Academics seem to be off the PAC10’s priority list now, FWIW).
An announcment by OU on Tuesday, let’s say, by itself, would lead to MORE smoke towards the PAC16 fire.
However…if the PAC10 stopped at 12 (with OU and CU as their two additions), they’ve done well. Of course, they could be on the way to 16 as many signs point to.
Or…this could all be pressure for Texas. The SEC is playing this other angle. They’re pressuring Texas by keying on their OTHER rival. We could potentially have aTm announce for the SEC and OU for the PAC10 (with Tech and OkSt too?)…ALL BEFORE TEXAS HAS MADE UP ITS MIND! That’s a freaking CRAZY scenario.
Anyway, I haven’t give up hope for the Big 10. If the PAC10 adds school by school by school on its way to HOPEFULLY getting Texas, they could very possibly sit at 14 (aTm and UT) holding out. Meanwhile. aTm is supposedly teetering on the edge of SEC accpetance to UT’s chagrin, when all of a sudden, the Big 10 sweeps in a provides the answer to keep the two together!!!
And they al live happily ever after…
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I think they both will live happily together (with several of their former fellow Big 12 playmates) in the Pac 10, when that league bends over backwards to accomodate all of their wishes.
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Oklahoma is close to the Pac-10? Aside from the newest member (Colorado), they’re all pretty distant. The Arizona schools are both 16 hour drives, one way.
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If you’re looking for top football programs as you head east from Arizona, Oklahoma is about as close as it gets. I’m not saying OU is close…I’m saying that as the PAC10 looks for viable partners in its quest for 16, OU is one of the closest schools that is a strong candidate.
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If the whole Texas / Oklahoma package agrees to go to the Pac-10, it’s probably safe to say that it’s a done deal.
If A&M goes to the SEC, which sounds likely, I think the odds of Texas going to the Pac-10 is still probable, but less so. Maybe 75%.
If Oklahoma gets persuaded to join A&M in the SEC, I think Texas would be more likely to reconsider the Pac 10. Who would be left in their side of the Pac-10? If this happens, I’d guess they would end up in the Big 10.
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Oklahoma regents meeting Wednesday (if not already reported)
The president of Oklahoma met with top Pacific-10 Conference officials amid a wave of conference expansion. After meeting with Commissioner Larry Scott and the deputy commissioner Kevin Weiberg, a spokesman for Oklahoma’s president, David Boren, said the university’s regents would hold a special meeting Wednesday in Norman. Oklahoma is in the Big 12, which lost Colorado to the Pac-10 on Thursday and Nebraska to the Big Ten on Friday.
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Doesn’t sound like anything will be happening before Tuesday then. Tuesday was the big “rumor date” everyone has been floating.
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The really weird thing about ND and Texas is it would instantly provide an answer for a question for which the answer is currently, “None, are you crazy?”:
Which, of any, Big Ten Universities would consider leaving the Big Ten (whether to go Indy or join another conference)?
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If ND and Texas can’t play at least eight conference football games, it should be a non-starter. Though sometimes I sense conference members have protected the Ohio State-Michigan game a bit too much (though now that it appears a CCG is a certainty, that may change), in terms of revenue and such no one thinks they’re bigger than the game. If Notre Dame and Texas can’t agree to a full conference schedule, that runs against Big Ten culture.
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Vincent, IMO the issue isn’t that the OSU/MI game is overdone, after all, its the single biggest college football rivalry, but it’s that the focus on the game has promoted the Big 2, Little 10 mockery. A full slate of these things of equal stature, like Nebraska/Penn State and/or ND/Texas playing on that same last day of the regular season would be monstrous for the conference. Can you imagine 6 of the 10 winningest programs of all time facing off like that under our banner?
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Ahead of:
Army-Navy?
Alabama-Auburn?
Texas-Oklahoma?
ND-USC?
Florida-Georgia?
Pitt-WVA?
Grambling-Southern?
Lehigh-Lafayette?
Harvard-Yale?
Please. No one outside of Michigan and Ohio cares…except for that one year it was 1 versus 2. Any typically the games aren’t that entertaining. [resisting the three-yards-and-a-puff-of-dust comment]
Personally, I’d even rank it behind Wabash and DePauw. Those two have a prank war and are fighting over the same pool of girls.
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FLP, I don’t get you, man. You jump all over my [stuff] for what you perceived as an assault on that which ND holds most dear. But then you slam the rivalry, which both UM and OSU (and the Big Ten, for that matter) hold most dear.
You are correct that most people outside of Ohio and Michigan don’t care about the game, well, except for the gazillion alumni and people who were born in either state who live elsewhere. I guess I can’t speak for alums and fans of other schools
As an ND fan, the usual of which worship history and tradition over anything else, I would think you would at least respect what the rivalry has meant historically. Remember the days when the SEC was not such a powerhouse, when the Big XII didn’t exist? At least some amount of the conference’s current power and clout has to be tied directly to the fame and stature of that rivalry. I’m not sure another rivalry has produced such an effect.
As for the rest of your list, aside from Ala-Aub, seriously? Are we polling college football fans on this? I definitely understand the draw of Army-Navy, and I am not diminishing that, but the entire reason that rivalry is huge is because, for that game, it isn’t about football.
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Some ND people are way too full of themselves and their little independent university. If it wasn’t for Knute Rockne, you’d be another DePaul…
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Well, there’s a shock… FLP isn’t a fan of Big Ten football.
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@GoBucks, and to a lesser extent, Big Ten Jeff
Point of fact, I jumped GoBucks [stuff] mainly because he called ND chicken…and I was having a rather bad day. BTW, I’m really not proud of that.
When you say the rest of the Big Ten hold the UM-OSU game “most dear” that just starts ringing alarm bells in my head.
The internal perception of the Big Ten is that of a Arthurian Round Table where the spirit of the musketeers lives on. “All for one, one for all” etc.
The external perception of the Big Ten (i.e. the fans of schools either not in or not trying to get in) is that’s its a Big Two (UM and tOSU), Little everyone else. You have to see that making statements that the other schools value YOUR rivalry as more important than their own is a huge indication that the internal perception is wrong and the external perception is correct.
Since only GoBucks and Manifesto (both tOSU fans/alums) jumped in on
https://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2010/06/08/double-chess-for-a-super-death-star-conference/#comment-71272
I think the rest of the conference views it as a nice historical rivalry that has traditionally had a disproportionate effect on the Rose Bowl race, or as I take it, an indication how UM and tOSU has held everyone else down.
And of course the Big Two have since historically only one Big Ten school went bowling (until 1975 I think), and that was the champion. Essentially for decades only two schools had a legitimate shot to going bowling annually. Between that and the high to non-existent scholarship limits, Big Ten football truly existed for the benefit of the schools in Columbus and Ann Arbor.
Wow…I never put this much thought into this before, but that is some serious BS. I have no idea why the rest of the conference puts up with that. I always thought it was just my Dad being a Purdue fan, and the general anti-Michigan ND attitude. But objectively that was horribly unfair. Aside from PSU’s ’94 title, the last MNC outside the Big Two is MSU’s in 1965. That’s not a good sign if you are looking to join up, just sayin’. Of course, the Land Grant Trophy is just another indication or how non Big Two teams are treated…
The SWC was dominated by Texas and TAMU, but TCU, Arkansas, and SMU had some good teams. The SEC was dominated traditionally by Alabama and UGa but Auburn, LSU, Tennessee, and GT would occassionally win, too. The Big Eight was always dominated by Nebraska and OU, which is probably another reason the BXII probably won’t make it until July 4th. National Championships come from all over.
Rating rivalries is difficult. Some people give bonuses for neutral site games, others give deductions. For me, I view it by how much the rivalry overshadows the rest of the season. I doubt UM or tOSU would trade a win for a Rose Bowl/ conference championship. I bet most of the others I suggested might.
@mnfanstc
The way I see it, without Rockne and Leahy, we’d be more like Providence, Marquette, or St. Bonaventure. Why else do you think we take the football team so seriously?
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@ GoBucks
You are correct that most people outside of Ohio and Michigan don’t care about the game, well, except for the gazillion alumni and people who were born in either state who live elsewhere.
Good point. My mistake.
@ Djinn^2
Go Boilers! 🙂
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@FLP_NDRox: In answer to your question… yes. Ahead of them all. That question has been asked and answered many times nationally.
I hope when ND, which frankly hasn’t been (objectively) relevant in the NC conversation for decades, finally accepts that the Big Ten is its best path to not only (objective) relevance but stability, you’ll be able to sift through the logic of why the decision was made. Don’t hate us because we’re rich, smart and powerful. Just be thankful that we’re still attracted to you. And when it happens, we will still embrace and root for you despite the venom you spew at us.
P.S. Speaking of rivalries, that ND-USC rivalry is definitely looking better for you over the next few years.
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What has been done to protect the OSU-UM game too much? Should the conference’s best rivalry not be protected? If UM and OSU are not in the same division, the Big Ten will be repeating the Big 12’s Oklahoma-Nebraska mistake.
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• The amount of Conference Games plaid
• the television network commonality
• the breaking of traditional rivalries
• the amount of the share of revenue
• the admittance of a tier 3 university
• More than two schools from one state
• More than 3 schools from one confrence
should all be non starters for an expansion candidate into the Big Ten.
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MICHIGAN VS. OHIO STATE
The biggest rivalry in ALL of sports (according to ESPN)
is too protected. Wow, that is bizarre. Should we stop
playing the Super Bowl too?
http://espn.go.com/endofcentury/s/other/bestrivalries.html
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If Oklahoma goes to the SEC (which I doubt) look for the Big Ten to become a little more open to Texas Tech if it means getting Texas. Delany knowns this is a once in a century opportunity and the top tier schools are few and far between.
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RE: SEC Expansion
When you consider the SEC’s strategy in expansion, you have to understand that it is quite different than the BT’s strategy.
The BT NEEDS big name football brands. Let’s be honest here, the SEC is the football power house and if your a BT fan your tired of it. So the BT must acquire some big time football brands to catch up to the SEC, and the list of a viable schools that academically qualify for the BT is short: (NUL, ND, TU). And I’m giving the benefit of the doubt to ND, because over the past 20 years they’ve been a mid-tier football team at best.
The SEC has TOO MANY GREAT FOOTBALL Brands. It does not need more big name football teams. The SEC doesn’t want TU. Someone on this site posted a very interesting ‘graph’ of the ultimate conference team strength roster. As follows:
* 25% of your conference is a great team
* 50% of your conference are contenders
* 25% of your conference are also rans
The SEC is top heavy: Tenn, UGA, UF, Bama, LSU, Auburn. The SEC has too many great teams.
You can’t have every team in your conference be great, they’ll eat each other up. For the past 10 or 20 years the BT hasn’t had this problem, sorry, but true.
SO.. what does the SEC want / need? New markets in the south by acquiring mid-tier teams. aTm is PERFECT for the SEC – a mid-tier team with a great new market. NC State, VT also foot the bill. Maybe even Mizzou. This is why I personally don’t think that OU is a prime target for the SEC, it’s TOO Good of a team and the OK market isn’t as sweet as the others above.
Of course the SEC’s secondary strtegy is to deny the BT of their primary goal of obtining more strong football franchise teams…not much the SEC could do about the BT obtaining NU. (sorry, “M says” but, how one conference does relative to your conference is always relevant).
That said it is very important for the SEC to get aTm as long as it doesn’t drive UT to the BT……
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Texas has one big problem in all of this…. handing over their media rights to a conference. They have stated they won’t do it. In the big12 meetings this year when the talk of commitment was at it’s highest, it was suggested commitment really means handing over your media rights to the conference. Texas refused.
Now if Texas joins a league where they have to hand over those rights, they’ll look like hypocrites. Big problem for them.
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As another Husker fan, I see your point bigredforever, but I think that ultimately there is no hypocrisy. The Big 12 just didn’t have enough to offer Texas to induce them to give up those rights. The facts are different now; the value of the rights may be different, the payment in exchange certainly is. It wasn’t that they wouldn’t turn the rights over as a matter of principle. It is all a matter of adequate compensation for doing so.
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Somewhere up above we had a bit of discussion on the feasibility of a new Pac-16 network following the pattern of the Big Ten Network. West coast fans are notoriously shallow in their support. NFL teams leave town…. barely a yawn. Hard to believe those same fans would provide the push needed to get the PTN on the basic cable tier. Those markets will be as hard to penetrate as the NYC market is when we discuss Rutgers as an expansion option. Texas could very well join the Pac-16 and get their network too.
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Outside of Oklahoma, Texas, South California, and some parts of Arizona and Oregon, the Pac-10 Network won’t really have that great penetration or viewership as compared to the Big Ten which is much more uniform in terms of the strength of the footprint.
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What’s so great about Maryland? Historically, they are like Michigan State in football, if not a notch or two below.
I’m one Big Ten fan who would not be excited about adding Maryland. In fact, other than Notre Dame and Texas, none of the remaining possibilities are very exciting. (I’m afraid I’ll be suffering from post-Nebraska let down with the next addition.)
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• Maryland has a great academic institution in its flagship university.
• Maryland offers 3 markets to sell the Big Ten product. DC, Suburban Virginia and Baltimore.
• Maryland’s viewing audience is also three new recruiting stops to add to the conference.
• Maryland has been significant historically in basketball.
• Maryland campus is a very nice place to send your children.
• Maryland Football program is under rated and will Challenge/upgrade the 2n 3d of the big ten.
• Maryland is where our nation’s capital is located. Not bad for CIC and AAU.
• Adding Maryland cuts into another major conference while we lose nothing. This is good.
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And… it’s the closest in to Johns Hopkins for CIC considerations.
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So is it really about academics? The REAL goal of Delany is to get John Hopkins in the CIC?
Maybe U. of Chicago is pushing an affiliation with the University Athletic Association-Case Western, Washington U., MO (who needs Columbia), Carnegie Mellon.
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Bullet, if you need to ask that, you’re a few thousand posts behind. It’s not just about academics, but it’s not just about sports either.
BTW, the CIC delivers over ten-fold the money to its members than the Big Ten. And yes, the U of C does multiple collaborations with other CIC institutions to gain competitive advantages for multimillion dollar research projects. To pretend otherwise is to ignore the historically most successful part of the Big Ten, much more so than College Football. Why else do you think the Big Ten still affiliates with the U of C?
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Just being facetious
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Maryland’s athletics are good all around, and their academics and research are very good. They’re the only big school in the 19th most populous state. And their proximity to Wash. DC doesn’t hurt at all in gaining congressional support.
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We do need to move into the Sun Belt sometime.
Right now the Big Ten is near the peak of its power relative to the other conferences.
We should exploit that opportunity to move into more fertile (relatively) recruiting grounds so that it is easier to get football recruits to go north.
The two areas that are open for grabs is the east coast between Maryland and North Carolina as well as Texas.
This isn’t just about adding marquee teams. This is about adding good universities that fit the profile and would expand the reach of the Big Ten in a positive way.
Missouri doesn’t really do that. I know people were pushing for Missouri earlier, but I don’t really see what Missouri adds other than a sizeable market for itself.
Maryland/Va and even NJ are more interesting for the possibility of planting a flag in a recruiting zone that would make it so the Big Ten isn’t as far away and that it is an easier sell.
This should be a major consideration, as well as that of markets, etc.
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Even Bo said that Nebraska would focus more on the east coast and midwest as a replacement for any lost Texas recruits.
We want the Big Ten to be the only other game in town East of the Mississippi.
Let’s be honest, that’s what this is all about.
If the Big Ten can do that, then recruiting shouldn’t really ever become too problematic. Getting into ACC territory is the best way to do that…
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I think Maryland’s athletic program is very underrated. Check this out.
http://www.umterps.com/genrel/md-national-championships.html
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Steve – UMd put their competitive cheerleading national championships on their sports website. That should be enough to exclude them from any further discussion.
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Even Kentucky doesn’t do that-and Kentucky’s cheerleading squad is prominent enough to have had their own TV series.
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Missouri adds a lot. Large enrollment,solid football and basketball history, solid fan base (65000-70000 for fall, 14000-15000 for bball), flagship school in state of 7M. Excellent cultural and geographic fit. Rivalry with Illinois. This hating on Missouri is getting old. The ONLY problem with Mo. is a relatively low academic rating…….
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Uh, where in my post is there any hating of Missouri.
Missouri is similar to Nebraska but with the benefit that it adds more footprint, and on the other hand, less national brand.
Missouri doesn’t add new recruiting zones, etc.
That should be a primary consideration at this point. We already have 4 national brands and 2 semi-national brands.
The synergy out of a Maryland/UVA/Rutgers addition outweighs the synergy of a Missouri addition at this point because all 4 are relatively similar.
Missouri is a larger draw than the other 3, but the other 3 have better recruiting potential.
I just think we need to shift the focus onto more of a future outlook…
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Paul,
Conference expansion goes Way Beyond football excitement. It’s also about market share and the conferences footprint into new territory. Maryland brings in key new markets as outlined all over this blog. It has a solid alumni, superior academics and reasurch following and a very strong basketball team. Maryland isn’t one of the “hr” schools, but it is a very solid choice.
The key with Maryland is how badly do they want to be in the BT. Or maybe said better, how much of a loss is the ACC to Maryland. For the Nebraska the Big XII was home, they didn’t necessarily want to leave the Big XII, but they had to since the Big XII was crumbling. The ACC isn’t crumbling right now.
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I’m guessing that Travel to Maryland may not be to hard either from Chicago, Columbus, Detroit and Minneapolis, or Indianappolis. The plane part is good and the bus portion no more than a bus ride from Champaign to Bloomington.
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If I was college football’s Czar I would be building towards an 8 team playoff to replace the BCS system.
Rather than 4×16 I would have 5×16 conferences. Each conference would be required to have a championship game which would essentially be the first round of the playoffs. Winners of those games would get automatic bids and then 3 bids would be distributed to 3 at-large teams with the stipulation that none of those 3 bids could come from conference championship game losers.
What the playoffs do overall is expand the number of games that have National Title Implications (NTI). Not only do the conference championship games have NTI but now many more regular season contests will have NTI as well. This is particularly appealing to me because I want to bring my national TV partners (Current and Future) a greater number of higher impact games.
To encourage a greater sense of national appeal my 5 conferences would all join together to form an organization to manage all of this and to create a national brand. The CFL is born.
The 40 schools that currently play NCAA FBS football that are not part of the 80 schools are invited to form their own structure, or they can just go play in FCS divisions. I think the latter is more likely.
Telling 40 schools to get lost is difficult and will certainly cause a lot of raised eyebrows. Politically though, I have some cover in that every state that is currently playing FBS football will be represented in the CFL.
The keys to making this move are to get the Pac-10 ramped up with some critical national brands. Therefore, I’m moving Texas, Oklahoma, TT and Okie State out to my buddy Larry Scott. Those 4 plus Colorado and Utah make for an excellent fit. Larry now has the power to build out his own Cable network to show backup football games, basketball games, baseball games and all the other sports the Pac-10 schools and Texas compete so well in.
The SEC needs new markets so I’m going to give them an entrance into Texas, North Carolina, and Virginia with Texas A&M, NC State, and Virginia Tech. Slive also wants a good basketball brand to the mix and we have a number of options here but I have a lot of the obvious choices reserved for other purposes. Louisville doesn’t get me into any new markets but it does give me a strong basketball brand.
Delaney wants Texas and ND but I need those two schools elsewhere. I do however see an opportunity to heat up the rivalry with the SEC by splitting the key markets so UVA, UNC, GT, and Maryland can join Nerbaska in the Big Ten. Jim can get off my case about recruiting too, VA, NC, and GA produce as many NFL players as TX.
The MWC has their deal with Comcast, and while I may have to change the name of that cable network, Comcast has to be thrilled with its opportunity to suck up the balance of the Big 12 schools. Welcome to the adult table to the old MWC schools! Comcast, you owe me…I want to see a lot of games on Versus!
The last 15 years have been rough on ND. The admin understands that they need to make some changes if they are going to become a player again, but the fans are blindly holding on to the belief that independence is the way to go. Here’s the bottom line though, if your games don’t have NTI they don’t have much appeal to NBC and we’ve played way too many seasons where ND isn’t playing games with strong NTI. Having said that, there is still an appeal to ND and if we can surround them with enough strength they can make a go of it. Hell, 15 years ago a conference that consisted of Miami, Fl. State and ND would have been second to none.
Before we link to the full set of CFL schools and their conference affiliation some quick rules. First, you’ll see the teams are organized into 4 team divisions, don’t get so caught up into the strength of these divisions. We’re going to pair up and rotate these divisions annually into Super Divisions. Year 1 will be A+B & C+D. 2: A+C & B+D and year 3: A+D & B+C. You’ll play each of these teams in your Division 1 game for a total of 7 conference games. The top 2 teams from each Super Division will move into the conference playoffs. In year 1 above, the top two teams from the A+B division will advance and meet the top two teams from the C+D divisions, then the winners will advance to the conference championship game.
So, the rules will provide for 7 conference games and then 4 non-conference games. Only your 7 conference games will count towards your playoff eligibility so I’m hopeful that we’ll see more top-notch cross-conference games emerge.
Now, what we’ve done here is turned an 8 team playoff into a 20 team playoff. The 8 team national playoff will be bid as a package, that is 7 games over 3 weeks. I bet its something like $400MM. Then each conference is going to have a 3 team playoff that feeds into the national playoff…each game with obvious NTIs. That is going to allow the conferences to work with Fox, NBC, CBS, ABC, ESPN and Versus to ramp up the TV $$ even further.
Add it all up and you’re looking at an additional $1B to the sport annually split across the Top 80 programs and on top of that we get playoffs and scheduling flexibility which removes the fear of playing a team that could actually beat you in September.
Here’s the full list. Changes highlighted.
http://sheet.zoho.com/public/expansionnut/untitled
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Oh gee, the Big Ten is the only conference in you scenario that is S*** out of luck. What a surprise.
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yea noticed that. plus an easier path for schools outside the 5 conferences. I wonder who might opt for independance or a lesser conference.
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BT is not out of luck.
* It adds 4 elite academic brands
* It adds $100M to the BTN coffers through the addition of MD, NC, VA, GA markets.
* It adds recruiting pipelines as big as Texas
* College football is better off.
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Maryland, NC, and Virginia aren’t coming.
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They would be if I was the Czar. What is so hard to understand about that?
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ND fans, who have been vocal against joining the Big Ten for over a decade, are “blindly” holding onto independence? Why does no one give us any credit for thinking this through? Shoot, Nebraska fans fell in love with the Big Ten in a matter of days and no one questioned that.
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Why does no one give us any credit for thinking this through?
Because you aren’t thinking it through.
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The sad thing is that you’re serious.
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It’ll be funny to watch you Domers spin this when its all sorted out.
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I look at it some like the Premier League in English soccer. If all these mega-conferences come to pass, with some kind of quasi-playoff system or actual playoffs, that’s really the only game that matters. In the end, Notre Dame can’t allow themselves to end up outside that system, and in effect, relegated. And we’re on the road now towards these mega-conferences coming to pass.
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I think it’s so funny that the ACC stretches from Boston to Miami and some of you are so concerned about stepping out of the dreaded Big Ten footprint. Travel doesn’t seem to be a concern to them.
To make the BT a national conference and add eyeballs in the process we need to dip into the real south with Georgia Tech and Miami. Then creep up the atlantic with North Carolina or Maryland and finish off with ND.
Will this happen? Very unlikely, but I would rather go big or stand pat at 12 than expand for expansions sake with the likes of Virginia and Syracuse.
The Big Ten mindset (safe, convenient and comfortable) will not work in this expansion process. The SEC and PAC10 aren’t shackled by these types of restrictions and neither should we be.
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GLS, there’s nothing that’s occurred from TPTB that indicates the process is shackled (as opposed to many posters, who are just thinking out loud). As best we know, with as much certainly as we can have at this point, schools as far flung as Rutgers and Texas have been considered, both of which are radically outside of the existing footprint.
I’ve been a constant proponent of the notion that a big reason for the 12-18 month timetable is so due diligence of sites ‘like’ a Florida, NC, Stanford or Miami could be investigated. If it was as simple as a ND, Nebraska, Pitt or Mizzou the process would have been much shorter. The length of the process has to be due to some unknown to us out-of-the-box considerations such as you’re asking about.
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How is Rutgers radically outside the Big 10 footprint? I think you need Syracuse with them to truly get the NYC grip, but both schools are adjacent to Pennsylvania.
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LOL… to a Chicagoan, NY/NJ is ‘out of the footprint’…
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to a New Yorker New Jersey is out of footprint
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Hank, LMAO. Good to see all this Big Ten kumbaya hasn’t eliminated some of the in house and other rivalries. I look forward to getting back to the competition once this is all over.
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To a Chicagoan, Peoria is “out of the footprint”.
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Right… and Rockford is ‘downstate’.
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GreatLakes–It’s more about culture than distance. Since the ACC expanded they have had some difficulty integreting north and south, old and new…
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While on vacation, I promised Mrs. Emig I wouldn’t blog.
But she didn’t say anything about Andy Staples doing it on my behalf. From Staples’ column now appearing on SI.com:
“After 10 years of covering college sports, a few general rules have become obvious. Rule No. 47: When a school issues a press release admitting a little, it means a lot has already happened.
So allow me to translate the release produced Saturday night by the University of Oklahoma:
“NORMAN — University of Oklahoma President David Boren and Director of Athletics Joe Castiglione had a very cordial and informative meeting today with Pac-10 commissioner Larry Scott and deputy commissioner Kevin Weiberg. It would not be appropriate to comment further on the content of the meeting at this time. There will be a special meeting of OU’s board of regents Wednesday afternoon to weigh possible conference options available to the university.
“Translation: NORMAN — We’re going to the Pac-10. Larry and Kevin came to check out logistics for the extravaganza of a press conference they’ll hold sometime after the board of regents officially approves the move on Wednesday.”
From the Tulsa World writer Guerin Emig
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/blogs/blog.aspx?blogid=12#8738
Personally, I don’t think this is a done deal, but it’s starting to look like the best of the deals on the table especially money wise (deals for OU…Texas I’m sure has a couple more options, including joining Iowa St, in the MAC)
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If you want to stalk Pac-10 commissioner today, FlightAware comes through again:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N228PK
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Frank,
In all these discussions, this is one of the funnier things to come out of this site. In the last round of “musical chairs” it would be funny if this program and twitter had existed.
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Odd, that plane has been in & out of Salt Lake City a lot in the last two weeks.
LOL
Do you have a link for Delany’s plane?
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I suspect that the Pac-10 leased the jet only for this weekend’s trip to Oklahoma, Texas A&M, and Texas Tech (and eventually Texas at Austin?).
(The jet left Buchanan Field in Concord, CA, which is the nearest “executive” airport to Pac-10 HQ in Walnut Creek, CA, on Saturday morning.)
Otherwise, the trip on Friday from Salt Lake to Eastern Oregon (Pendleton) makes no sense.
Pac-10 officials were in Boulder, Colorado on Friday.
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Morning Folks, some thoughts to ponder for sunday
1) think like an old guy
We have correctly outlined how to think like a college president, and how to think like a TV executive. I have said it before, we must think like an old guy. Like it or not, this discussion is driven by folks over 50! In the A&M debate, the driving forces for A&M to the SEC are Gene Stallings, John Crow, and an assortment of guys that have been in football / college longer than most of us have been alive. Almost everybody I see in pictures / print have been around the block a time or two [Tom at Nebraska fits this to a tea, football guy turned elder statesman]. Make no mistake, old guys make the decisions at the top, be they president, tv executive, sports guy, or any other party that makes votes matter.
2) The top 10 and “brand” names
For better or worse football has 10 “brands”
historically they are organic, or they “absorbed”
Look at this, and think if I am right….
4 BIG 10 [2 organic + 2 absorbed] (counting Nebraska)
3 PAC 16 [1 organic + 2 absorbed] (OU & TU)
2 SEC [2 organic] (Bama + collective of other members)
1 IND [organic]
4 of these teams were not organic to their current conference and if ND winds up in the B 16 it will mean that 50% of the top 10 are NOT home grown (PSU, NEB, OU, TU, and ND). if delany has done nothing else but keep ALL 5 of the these teams out of the SEC! the second thing delany has done is assure the Big 10 will always have a great shot at a NC! Stop and think about what I just said, let it sink in….
Nebraska is now in the Big 10, and UT,USC, and OU will now have to battle EACH other so only one of the 3 can advance! if delany does nothing else this subtle thing is enough to make a legacy!! With this said the top brands are all spoken for, so future discussions (save ND) can not be viewed the same way. Maryland is not Nebraska in football, nor is almost any team still out there so get over it!
3) is it just me, or does anybody notice that the Texas schools will probably announce tuesday, and the oklahoma schools announce wednesday? Could it be that OU wants to make sure that UT can not back out before saying yes. So much for any hopes of Texas to the Big 10 is what I get out of this move.
4) After discussing brands, and the fact they are maybe 10, we must look at markets as the next driving force in the equation. The SEC has said NO to Miami, USF, Clemson, and Ga Tech which tells me that future SEC expansion will NOT be in current “footprints” nor will it go to small markets (teams like WVU). The Big 12 appears gone and the BE holds no appeal to the SEC. My guess is the ACC is next.
I spent some time reading the MD site and found validity for what I had long suspected. MD is tired of being in the shadow of the All Carolina Conference. Publicly they are stating how they are a charter member of the ACC. Guess what so was South Carolina! read this link..
http://www.thestate.com/2010/06/13/1329757/future-is-cloudy-for-expansion.html#RSS=gogamecocks
I think in a chess situation, the opening play is MD (especially if UT goes west). Debate at will but from the Terp boards they are happy to get out of the ACC no matter what they say publicly. Just look at A&M if they go to the SEC. The groundswell from the fanbase is driving the move, so it should be easier to get MD into the Big 10 with no state twin like UT/A&M or UVA/Va Tech.
5) On optimal football strength
In an early discussion I debated optimal balance for NC success.
it went something like this in a Big 16 setup
Pod A) PSU + 3
Pod B) tOSU + 3
Pod C Michigan + 3
Pod D) Nebraska + 3 (yes I was picking Big Red early)
the second part of this was to make sure the pods balanced some what like 1 great team, 2 average – good teams, and 1 bad team
too many great teams, and nobody gets to the NC
too many bad teams, nobody cares
In order to have a great team, we will have to have teams that lose to them as for every winner needs a loser to balance the equation. if MD or Rutgers are not PSU or Nebraska, get over it.
6) Inverse schools, look at this list an see if a trend shows up
Nebraska – great football, bad basketball
IU – bad football, great basketball
UNC – bad football, great basketball
USC – great football, bad basketball
UK – bad football, great basketball
BAMA – great football, bad basketball
I made an argument for Kansas early on for a Big 10 expansion (without K State) as they were AAU, flagship, public, midwestern, etc. Ny theory was that like Nebraska, you got a top 10 in their sport. That delany did not get KU when he got Big Red tells me it is ALL about football. I understand his position, but I feel we missed a great opportunity here. that said I would get KU before Missouri, but I am not delany.
7) The difference between GOOD and GREAT is the coach, and any school must know where they stand in the food chain. Steve Spurier and Mack Brown called the ACC home. they are not there now. The chances of Duke or IU getting a great coach is probably not bad. The problem with KEEPING them is. No matter who the Big 10 adds to get to 16, I will bet you that most of the added schools will be stepping stone jobs in football. we now have 4 great programs in the Big 10 family, so get over it and count your blessing for what we have.
8) While I know Bo and Woody our newest additions do not have the same memory. I understand using these names to create football divisions, but PSU and Nebraska may not feel the way I do. That said try to welcome our new family by remembering they have some pretty awesome history as well.
ps.. sorry I posted so much yesterday, I really was excited about getting Nebraska as family
pps.. for the IU folks on this board shameless plug..
The Indiana team almost swept the Kentucky team 3 out of 4 (and the girls game in conseco fieldhouse went to OT so it could have been a full sweep) way to go Indiana.
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#1 is an excellent point duff. btw I’m 55 so I expect you to start listening to me
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hank,
some of us remember the Pac 8, the SEC with Ga Tech, the Big 8, and the SWC.
🙂
I always listen to you hank!
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I remember them too. well the memorie in whatever brain cells survived the late 60s and 70s 🙂
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Good points.
Agree with your thinking of trying to balance the league out with average and not so good teams.
Agree about Maryland, average (with a few good years) at best for football and a very good basketball team. Also an old time rival of Penn State that should please our PSU fans.
PS – I am old guy too (53).
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aps and hank,
just think of us like wine, we get better with age!
🙂
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Agreed. Let’s think like this guy:
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Back to the chess game..
slive moves first, picks up A&M
delaney moves next, picks up MD
slive moves next, picks up Va Tech
delaney moves next, picks up Kansas
beebe picks up jis severence check, and start a new job as fry cook
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Kansas is a small state and has two rather big schools that are somewhat tied together. Not much of a football brand, and suffering from scandals at the moment. Great basketball, little else. I’d take Missouri’s market over Kansas’ any day. Missouri, like Rutgers, is a fairly solid all-around school, with nothing flashy or sexy. But Rutgers is the only big school in the 11th most populous state, and it’s adjacent to NYC, so it needs to come off the board before Mizzou or Kansas. And Rutgers is in the BE, and can be used to leverage ND. Maryland is similar to Rutgers and Missouri, solid all-around but not sexy, the lone biggy in a nice market, and there are several other good choices in the ACC. Pitt would be a touchdown in NY, a good football brand, excellent athletics and research, a definite touchdown, but it’s only a field goal in PSU’s shadow. Incredibly, a small school like Syracuse is the only “big name” football school in the third-largest state in the country, so you have to consider it because of the increased NY subscription rates alone. Its football sucks, but it has a good basketball program. Notre Dame is a definite touchdown pass, though, if we don’t somehow win the Domer alumni over first, ND might turn into an intercepted return for a td. Delany has a lot to think about. Nebraska was a touchdown (missed extra point), but we’re probably going to have to settle for a couple field goals along the way.
As I posted earlier, I’d prefer that Delany would negotiate an expansion settlement with the other conferences so as to avoid armageddon and to minimize public outrage at the BT, (they’d probably need Congress to over-see the negotiations). But, barring that, I like the way Delany is setting the board and waiting to swoop in for the kill when the time is right. The Pac-10 had no choice but to go for it all in one fell swoop, but Delany has a lot of good choices available and the savvy to test the waters. We’ve already had a few surprises and a mountain of speculation. This could get even more interesting (and I’m already on the edge of my seat).
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Haven’t seen this linked yet. Its a good Detroit article. Probably the 1st I’ve seen talking any about what happened, not just about what might happen.
http://www.freep.com/article/20100612/SPORTS06/6120307/1054/sports/Next-phase-in-Big-Ten-expansion-could-take-time
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fwiw its written by Mark Snyder a Michigan beat writer who is one of the two main reasons I don’t put a lot of credit in beat writers or former beat writers. his partner is the other main reason.
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Chip Brown is now reporting on the Orangebloods premium site that the Big 12 may live on with just 10 schools.
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ESPN: Big 12 leftovers, might reconstitute
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/colleges/post/_/id/4668738/after-exodus-could-tcu-and-a-new-big-12-align?campaign=rss&source=DALLASHeadlines
My feeling is OU really likes the Reform the Big 12 option.
A&M wants NO part of the Pac-10
Texas, likes being bell of ball and thinks the Pac-10 solves problems.
And no-one cares what Ok.St and Tech want
The key for long term viability will be a new TV contract and maybe a cable channel in partnership with the Pac-10
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or that this is not coming from Beebe but UT who does not want TAMU in the SEC
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Frank,
i have said all along that slive was a smart guy
a) he has a chance to get A&M
b) he has done it without adding TT
c) he has made overtures to OU, but not OSU, allowing a graceful exit if he really does not want OU for academic reasons
d) with A&M he still holds 3 slots to 4 for delany, and both players can sit back and drive their own agenda
e) if the Pac 16 fails, he can pick off a more contrite UT in 5 – 15 years, and will only have to battle the Big 10 for UT then (good for a patient Big 10, as they win that battle).
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Couple that with Chip’s article late last night ((A&M leaning SEC; What’s next for Texas), it seems to cast some doubt that Texas’ entrant to the Pac-10 is definitive.
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Dan Beebe leading the meeting
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the harumph he did not get must be baylor..
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more likely TAMU 😉
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On second thought, now that all the bluffs and bullsh*t have devolved into a massive clusterf*ck, they’d like to buy some more time in order to properly weigh their options.
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The Big12 staying together would be my preference. Too drastic of a change might result in the loss the casual fan who grew up with the KU/MU conference rivalry or the UT / A&M rivalry.
We saw the impact of the Big12 on the NU/OU rivalry, and they didn’t even change conferences.
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That might be, but the price to keep it together is probably giving Texas their LSN and effectively indentured servitude as Texas opponents, possibly in order for them to build their bank account towards being able to go independent. Nothing there screams stability. If they’re willing to give up the LSN dream for a Big 12 Network that benefits all, then it becomes possible.
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I totally agree. The LSN is an unfair money advantage, that it would kill the other schools. They just wouldn’t be able to keep up.
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No, they would do a 5 year Fox contract. That gives Texas the opportunity to get BevoTV off the ground before the network TV coverage ends.
Any team going with Texas now better be prepared to find a new home in 2016 or be content with significantly diminished TV revenue at that time.
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I believe the Big12 (including NU and OU) would have approved a plan where Texas provided their media rights to a B12N while also retaining the right to develop the LSN. Sharing the TV proceeds equally while allowing each school to develop additional streams of revenue would have been a perfectly acceptable compromise.
My question involves the length of the agreement. Perlman indicated they wouldn’t commit beyond 2016 in the B12 conference meetings.
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Disagree. Perlman indicated that one of his questions when pressed for a commitment at the Big 12 meetings was whether Texas was willing to assign their media rights to the conference. They wouldn’t make that promise, so it’s a non-starter for Nebraska. It’s probably a non-starter for A&M and a lot of other schools who haven’t gotten around to examining the ramifications of such a move yet. Texas inability to commit beyond 6 years is simply more proof that inherent instability is a permanent fixture of life in the Big 12, should it survive.
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@eapg
Perlman’s full question was whether Texas would assign their long-term media rights to the B12N. Texas refused to do commit over the long-term and thought it had enough power to keep NU in the Big12 without doing so. They were wrong.
But I know for certain that NU had explored the possibility of a Nebraska TV and web-based Husker Network and thought it would be feasible. They had no objection to a hybrid solution, but for it to work Texas needed to grant non-exclusive media rights for an extended period of time.
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Oh well, not worth worrying about at this point. These other schools can deal with Texas, we’re out.
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Thank heavens. It’s nice not having to worry about this going forward.
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@Frank:
Thanks to Time Warner, I’m not consistently online this weekend, but hopefully my modem maintains enough juice to respond to this.
I think the “Big 12 staying together” option is only viable if A&M seems capable of picking off OU to move to the SEC as well. There are no indications that that scenario will happen, but if it did, I think the combined legislative forces of Texas, Tech and Baylor (remember them?) could unite to keep the Aggies in the conference, and everyone hits reset until everyone figures out what the hell is going on.
Given the OU regents meeting set for Wednesday, I’m convinced OU is still in line for the Pac 16. If so, the latest Chip Brown piece is just part of the latest UT PR efforts to make it look like UT is doing what it can to “save the Big 12.”
(1) If A&M jumps, Texas can claim it did everything it could and will go on to the west, with Kansas included; or
(2) If A&M is talked back off the ledge, the five schools head west, because everyone knows it would be foolish not to move.
So, in other words, we’re still heading west. I’m not sweating this.
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I think the % chance is to head west.
However, I don’t think that hinges on A&M at all. They don’t change the game much wither they stay or go
From what I’ve been reading:
*OU likes the “Reform the Big 12” option
*A&M wants NO part of the Pac-10
*Texas looks at the Pac-16 as a way to solve a long list of problems, but likes being courted by everyone including the MAC and the Big Sky Conference.
(and no one cares what Okla St and Tech wants)
Why should the South 5 go to the Pac-10? The Pac-10 is not making anymore money than the Big 12 is right now. Their football programs have not been more successful than the Big 12’s if you count the number of different schools to play in BCS games.
Does the Pac-10 need the Big 12 south? Yes, does the Big 12 need California and Arizona for their TV’s? Yes
But why merge? Is it just to not share a cut of the pie with Iowa St and Kansas St and Baylor? Cause Kansas and Missouri actually brings TV and fans to that pie.
The solution is FAR easier: Joint TV package.
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“If A&M jumps”
Conveniently giving Texas their next scapegoat in this soap opera, also.
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The question is what the TV consultants are saying. Latest claim is $17 million for 10 team B12. Said UNL was worth only $8.6 million and CU worth less than average. Don’t know how much credibility I give those figures.
Earlier consultant outside suggested $15 million for 12 team B12. Seems reasonable as ACC was making more than SEC before last deal. Now making $13 vs. $17, but did their deal in worse market. Is P10 $20 million with a network or $20 million + local rights. SEC is $17 + local rights. Local rights are valuable. Someone here posted $5-$8 million for SEC schools. An article said FL was $10 million. AJC said UGA earned $11.6 million last year.
What seems clear is B10 is a little behind SEC before adding UNL. How B12 and P10+6 would stack up is not clear.
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Hank,
for us old guys who remember that guy nixon..
http://www.mrsec.com/2010/06/slive-channeling-nixon-on-sec-expansion/
this is a good read
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good read and I have no doubt Slive is a sharp guy. Delany and Scott each seerately vs Beebe is spring football. Delany vs Slive is the real game.
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The only problem with that line of reasoning is it assumes Texas (or Texas Tech, Balyor) has no say in the matter.
You think their interests in Texas are going to let the the TAMU interests out politic them? I mean ironically this is a time when the “Tech problem” becomes an advantage because they will join with Texas to go to the Pac as opposed to being left out of the SEC). What’s more, OK seems more aligned with Texas than it does TAMU and that means if Texas wants to head to the Pac, OK will more than likely join with them (against TAMU and the SEC).
The facts as I see them are the SEC really only has one play, get TAMU. But the only way that play is viable if its willing to take 4 Texas (the state) schools so that all the legislatures will be voting against Texas (the school). At that point they be at 16 and effectively have added 4 schools to get the 2 they wanted.
Is it something they’d do? Maybe. I don’t know. But I do know its not their preferred plan.
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PSUG,
sorta my point, slive only REALLY wants A&M, it leaves him 3 slots for ACC schools. The Pac 16 gets what they want, and slive walks off with A&M. Everybody is happy, but slive has made the shrewd more.
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The quest for a national championship in football is worth with many inequities. So is College football.
Lesser conferences don’t get the respect and the numbers they need in the bowls. Long established teams always get the recruits as they have already a winning tradition and great facilities and some well heeled boosters. Some up and coming programs can really be competitive because their tier 2 – 3 academics are no impediments for them recruiting a bigger range of athletes. But yet this hurts a Vanderbilt, Stanford, Northwestern and a Duke in Football. Schools such as these also give out fewer scholarships then any of the powers in modern collegiate football because they are private and don’t have the economy of scale for spreading out the cost. Yes they do have money but for these types of institutions, gratuitous spending on athletics is a very sore point when they take their mission to heart.
Some of the powers are known to stock pile recruits and cut them lose when they don’t excel. Or worst yet recruiting guys that have absolutely no intention of obtaining a degree of any kind. So despite the quandary a Kansas or an Iowa state might find themselves in currently I see a perpetual problem in which in truth only about 30 schools have a realistic path to a national Championship.
Besides the jockeying for conference supremacy which I do not have a problem with, I think there should be a secondary focus. This may also help those teams such Utah, Boise State and the teams that traditionally finish in the middle of the pack of a major conference achieve some traction on their quest to a national championship.
What’s the answer? LOWER THE AMOUNT OF SCHOLARSHIPS BY 5 – 10.
The NCAA allows each division IA college football program 85 scholarships and each division IAA college 63 athletic scholarships. In division 2 there are 36 Scholarships.
At one time most Division I schools had around 100 football players on scholarship at one time. After the number was brought down to its current rate, there was (Opinion) a marked improvement in competition in Division I college football over all it broth forth a little more parity in that there was a stronger 2nd tier in conference play and the big two were not assured a spot in a post season bowl in the way they had been previously. I think it’s time to make this move once again for the sake of competition. A bigger conference as in a 16 team conference should not mean a wider swath of futility for the traditional climbers. Upward mobility cannot be assured but it should be possible. John F. Kenney once said “Why should Rice play Texas? I say because they should have a better chance of winning in 2010 than they did in 1960. So since then for these two teams what has changes in 50 years?
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StvInILL,
spoken like a fan! well done!
the bad news the fans no longer run the show
AD’s , corporations, tv executives, etc do….
*sigh*
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The thought about who the national powers were led me a couple months ago to look at the top 5 in recent years. The 16 schools (other than GT) who have won or shared a national championship in the last 25 years have 66 of the 75 spots in the AP top 3 and 102 of the 125 spots in the top 5(UM,PSU,OSU,ND,USC,UW,OU,CU,UNL,UT,AL,TN,LSU,FL,FSU,MiamiFL). All of them have been in the top 5 at least 3 times. Noone else has been there more than twice. In fact, only 6 other schools have cracked the top 3 (UGA,Auburn,GT,VT,Utah,OR). Only 33 total schools have ended up in the top 5 in the last 25 years.
Not that I’m advocating it, but if you really wanted to balance it out, control costs, slow the professionalism and make it healthier-go back to some form of single platoon football. Could lead to some interesting confrontations when you play them on both sides of the ball.
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Chip Brown : Mizzou’s push 2 show rest of Big 12 that it has seen the light & rlly values the Big 12 has bn noticed, sources say.
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Another from Chip Brown
Mizzou’s push to show rest of Big 12 that it has seen the light and really values (i.e. needs) the Big 12 has been noticed, sources say.
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having looked into the abyss they noticed the Mountain West looking back
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Hank, I like that one, alot!
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+ 1
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Which is nothing compared to Iowa St heading to the MAC
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Good dog! Get biscuit!
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*falls of chair laughing*
glad no milk nose happened!
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Seems A&M and maybe OU off to the SEC has Texas counting votes. Wait, guys, come back, we were just kidding.
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Frank,
as a basketball guy
http://www.hailtotheorange.com/2010/5/21/1482091/big-ten-expansion-bad-for-illini
this is a good deal
🙂
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The Illini’s football sweet spot is in the middle of the pack. Consistent quality of coaching and recruiting has been their Achilles. But my previous post also provides the answer to the Illinois of the world. That is 5 – 10 less full scholarships per year for Div I. The Michigan states and Minnesota’s and the Illinois of the world should wake up to this. Or is it their own greed will make them spite themselves.
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here is something to chew on,
the Big 12 lives, but A&M goes to the SEC
Now they are the Big 9 and add SMU, UH, and Rice
They split into 2 divisions and UT heads up one and OU heads up the other.
Egos are frayed at A&M so the “new” Big 12 says no to scheduling A&M
The SEC responds by taking the Big 12 off all their schedules
The new Big 12 collapses and UT goes to the big 10 alone.
just a “what if”
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Best case scenario: Big 12 survives, Big Ten gains Nebraska for their network, SEC stands pat and a weakened/deperate P10 gets….Colorado.
The Big Ten can eventually go to 14 with ND and one other, but that can wait.
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If I was Oklahoma or Texas A&M I would take my proud, strong university and get the hell away from Texas. Here’s a snippit for the latest UT strokefest, I mean orangebloods.
http://texas.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1093803
[Hold on folks. This is about to get interesting. The key in all of this is that Texas appears to be at least reconsidering its position on going to the Pac-10 and will listen to the Beebe proposal and to the idea of remaining in the Big 12.
Nothing is done. It is fluid. But the Beebe Plan to hold the Big 12 together is definitely in play right now.
As Orangebloods.com was told by a top source in the day’s developments: “The winds to keep the Big 12 together with 10 teams are getting stronger.”
The plot only figures to thicken as Pac-10 commissioner Larry Scott and Pac-10 chief operating officer Kevin Weiberg spoke to officials from Oklahoma and Oklahoma State in Oklahoma City Saturday and are in College Station today to speak with Texas A&M officials, according to sources.
Texas had been resolute up to this point that if Nebraska left the conference, it would accept an invitation to join the Pac-10 and lead an exodus that appeared to include Oklahoma, Texas Tech and Oklahoma State.]
… Really? Here’s Bevo Chip Brown’s first draft…
All hail the mighty Texas for even considering holding the Big 12 together and saving all of these useless schools, one highly placed source told me. Originally, Texas had tried to make Nebraska stay in the Big 12 with threats and deadlines, but unbelievably, they left anyway. All the other useless schools in the conference were supposed to convince them to stay, but again they failed miserably and Texas, the mighty Texas, had to save the day. Texas had originally tried to save everyone, the LSN, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, and some other schools but now sources tell me that I’m not supposed to speak of the LSN. The LSN is going to make stupid kinds of money for the great university of Texas, and if our little tag alongs don’t see that and choose to go somewhere else, we’ll get the legislature involved. Can the Big 12 be saved with only 5 schools (THE ALMIGHTY TEXAS, Iowa State, Baylor, Kansas State, and Missouri)? AT least those schools would let us do whatever the hell we want! Dodds Out!
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Partrick, so many people want TX for the money, but I agree with you; it is nothing but trouble. There is other money to be made, there are other pies to be had that don’t bite back. I think we just chill at 12 for awhile.
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Texas just needs to give up the LSN (or share it) or they will find themselves with no competition and no friends. They appear to be trying to strong arm everyone to get their way…. and none of these major programs will allow being strongarmed. OU has said they will NOT allow UT to keep the LSN all for themselves…. A&M also. I think those two may go to the SEC together.
Texas is KILLING themselves here, and they totally delusional?
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With this LSN thing, Texas is Notre Dame. I mean them more than Notre Dame right now should be the independent. They also have a better product to sell over the past 15 years. But this LSN thing is poison to a conference. These things LSN and a conference are mutually exclusive.
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Isn’t Texas after the same deal ND has? ND has all the benefits of its Big East membership, but gets to keep its own football revenue. NBC is its LHN. That’s what TX means when it says its on the same page as ND. Its just that the rest of the members of their conference aren’t as cooperative as the members of ND’s conference.
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it wouldn’t be the worst thing for the Big Ten if the Texas cotillion headed to the Pac xx and the Pac xx set up their own network with Fox and then aggressively marketed the two together. We wouldn’t get as high basic cable fee out of Texas but we could also get on cable systems in the west and it would expand the footprint for advertising revenues. So while the overall network revenue wouldn’t be as high it would be enhanced and integrating one like minded university would be much easier. and Texas and the Pac xx would also gain value from broader access for their network.
I could live with that.
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That would be great. That’s real leverage.
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Is Texas not the biggest soap opera there is going right now? This is not to say they don’t have value. They have considerable value but between their wants their needs their politics and their indecisiveness we have us a wealth to speculate about.
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as an OU guy I agree. Suckling at the teet of Texas is not going to make OU strong no matter how much money we suck down.
I don’t like the pac-10 deal.
But holding the big 12-lite together, gives UT even more reason to start the LSN and dominate the league.
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Everyone but the B10 control their own local broadcasting. There’s nothing unusual about it. The B10+1+1 is the unusual one. In the B10 virtually all the universities bring something to the table and the B10 is the most homogenous conference, so it works there. Ohio St. and Michigan are not giving up as much as USC/UT/UF/FSU would by pooling their secondary rights.
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That’s not true. The Big Ten teams also control their broadcasting, from what I can tell, although it’s hard to find reliable sources. Ohio State apparently gets about $11 million a year from IMG, and Michigan gets about $7.16 annually, and those were the only Big Ten teams I could find numbers on.
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/128929
http://leatherhelmetblog.com/2010/06/07/how-much-are-multimedia-rights-worth-to-sec-schools/
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Here’s a link for Michigan’s TV deal with IMG.
http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2008/08/university_of_michigan_inks_86.html
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So exactly what does the BTN control?
And is IMG media or is it just licensing (T-shirts, etc.)?
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Ok, I read the article. Not licensing, but everything is mentioned EXCEPT TV athletic events. Mentions radio and coaches shows.
So that would imply BTN has live athletic events.
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RE Chip Brown:
Chip Brown’s posts are really laughable at this time. The BIG XII is done. Why? Because No team in their right mind will join the Big XII with all this talk about every Big XII team leaving for every conference in the Universe. And 10 teams aren’t enough to keep a major conference together in today’s world of expanding conferences.
The time to same the Big XII has long past….too bad since saving the Big XII with NU and CO gone is in the best interest of the Big Ten, but it just won’t happen the Big XII is dead…..and what would they call this new conference of ten reaming teams?
Big Ten Lite????
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if the 10 teams stay…who’s leaving?
And yeah, there are schools in worst football leagues than ones with Oklahoma and Texas in them.
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Yes, at one time there were lots of schools that would jump at the chance to join a league with UT and OU in it (Utah, CO St., NM, Cincinnati) probably a lot more good schools as well. But not now.
No University President in their right mind would join a conference with UT and OU that is falling apart. Every mid-tier school is running scared now, no one wants to be left WITHOUT being in a viable conference.
Thus, my point the time to save the Big XII is over unless they truly can survive and prosper with only 10 schools. And that seems less likely in light of additional conference expansion and the fact that those ten couldn’t get Rice to join them at this point.
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Bingo.
Kansas, K-State, Missouri, and Iowa State should have figured out by now that the Big East, with a BCS auto bid, a football league without a perennial powerhouse to overshadow everyone else, and an awesome basketball league with ESPN exposure, is the right fit for them.
The Big 12 is finished. Too many bruised egos. Too much mistrust.
Texas can take its entourage (Oklahoma, Okla St, Texas Tech) to the Pac-16.
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Colorado State, New Mexico, and Cincinnati would accept an invitation to the Big 12 in about four minutes.
Utah wouldn’t because they’re guaranteed a spot in the Pac-12 if the Big 12 stays intact.
Memphis is another viable school that would immediately accept, instability be damned.
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No, no, don’t you get it? Dan Beebe, that consummate trickster, has come up with a plan. Never mind the smoke and the flames, the fire isn’t too bad yet, just stop rushing the exits! It’s brilliant, really. Texas can ram through any less than 12 teams for a CCG legislation they want, never mind that the Big Ten never pulled that one off. Texas is omnipotent, haven’t you noticed that the last few weeks?
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hawkeye,
consider this sentence.. from the Charlie Brown er Chip Brown blog….
-The Big 12 would proceed with 10 teams. Everyone would play everyone in football, providing a nine-game conference schedule. And the option to save or dump the conference championship game would be determined by the institutions.
for better or worse, the CCG propelled the SEC and Big 12, and throttled the Big 10 in the NC race “perception”. With a 10 team conference (and the Big 10 now at 12) have the roles reversed? With Big Red gone (and the Buffs) what is the interest level in a CCG that is just a replay of the Red River Rivalry?
Am I the only one looking at this? Sweet irony!
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Duffman,
Ya, I think there’s going to be a lot of ‘irony’ all over the place!
I’m no expert, just an “armchair conference chairman”, But it sounds pretty desperate to me. Saving the Big XII in light of all the other conferences growing (and the fact that no school in their right mind will join the Big XII now) seems like a real long shot to me.
Although I must admit that saving the Big XII, as opposed to letting UT slip to the Pac 10 would be great news for the BT. We would have grabbed NUL and UT would still be out there for another day!
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Does this seem plausible?
The remaining Big 12 teams are insisting on a conference that is build on equality. Because they can get that if they leave.
UT is still pushing for their unequal agenda with Chip Brown being the mouthpiece, and the saving of the Big 12 the prize.
If UT really wants to save the conference they could IMO.
Big 12 lives if UT becomes an equal.
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Really good analysis of the PROS & CONS of Maryland joining the Big Ten
http://www.testudotimes.com/2010/6/12/1514370/summarizing-the-pros-and-cons-of
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GLS,
thanks for the link.
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good read
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Greatlakes,
Thanks for the link. I have been at this site before with a similar discussion on Maryland. My thoughts are much of these Marylanders’ have Stockholm syndrome. And the capture is Carolina. Some dodge honest discussion on the issue by denigrating Big Ten basket ball for being defensive minded and slow. This is laughable because even if true would it not be another benefit to leaving the ACC.? I mean with their superior basketball style maybe they could win more basketball championships than you would in the ACC. Then the NCAA would still be there for you to challenge the Dukes and North Carolinas’ of the world. The article also pointed out that other elite basketball schools football teams bring in more money than their basketball team.
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So then is Texas a “happy clappy” member of the Big XII if they preserve what’s left of the conference, (minus NE and CO) get their LSN without sharing, and continue to get an automatic BCS bid? if so for how long? There is a fundamental problem here that exist regardless of whether the conference exist or not else the conference would have continued to be the conference of 12 and not the conference of The One.
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Stv in ILL,
Right! That’s another irony playing out here….for all their value and for what a Big Fish UT is….UT doesn’t have many options. And the options that they do have are not too good for them. UT is going to be the big loser in conference expansion, that was always in the cards.
And by big loser I don’t mean anything ‘bad’ is going to happen to UT, heck, they’ll probably go on to win titles, sell tickets, get TV appearances and make tons of money. But, UT cannot get what they want out of conference expansion. It is in a losing proposition and has to pick the best out of a lot of bad options.
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You’re dead on. Maybe you can keep the B12S together but not the North. If your Kansas and K-State do you jump at a bid from the Big East tomorrow? Heck yea you do.
The only way B12N4 stay is if there is some serious contractual language, a pile of cash, and a lot of pain for UT for skipping out of town. If I’m the Kansas ADs and I have a deal on the table from the BE, I tell Deloss forget your BevoTV, everybody media shares now, and the price of leaving the conference just went from $10 MM to $100 MM for UT with only unanimous decision to terminate the conference.
That essentially would cement UT in place and would allow for the conference to attract two new members.
Like I continue to say; the next move is going to be made in Kansas and the B12N4.
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Wow, I mean, WOW, you got to love it!
Are you trying to tell me that: TEXAS needs KU and KU-State more than they need or want U of Texas!
This is better than Iowa stomping the Gophers! Just kidding Minnesota people.
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hawkeye,
this is fast getting funnier than any sitcoms on TV.
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Yea, they do the reason why you ask?
#1 Those 4 while looked down upon bring some pretty big TV markets with them. KC, StL, etc.
#2 Going to be a little tough to get that TV money when the only markets you have are inside of Texas.
#3 If aTm still leaves…whoops now you have 5 teams remaining which means No 6 teams playing for 5 years which means no conference according to the NCAA. No BCS AQ for you.
UT has lost all advantage at this point. As long as aTm + 4 are willing to leave UT has no leverage. UT made its move. Now the ball is aTm and Kansas’s court.
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Sure, but the Longhorns have options. They can try to give it a fly in a reduced Big 12 and if it doesn’t work, the Pac 10, Big 10 and SEC will still be there for them. They’re the 600 pound gorilla that can do anything they want. And by sticking to the B12 for now, they keep A&M out of the SEC.
The Big 12 North schools agree to become UT vassals because the alternative is the Mountain West or CUSA.
UT, TAMU and OU know they will always have a home. The Pac 10 is not going to give their spot away to BYU or New Mexico. (Utah might get an invite, but that would be OSU or TTU’s spot.)
I’m not saying the Big 12 is going to survive. But Texas doesn’t have to kill it today. They can take their time if they want to see if it can be salvaged.
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The 4 remaining Big 12 north schools don’t have to be “vassals” for Texas.
The Big East wants at least 3 of them (Kansas, K-State, Missouri) to be cornerstones of the “west” division of a 12-team BCS auto-bid league.
The only one that is iffy is Iowa State, and only because Memphis has a benefactor (FedEx boss Fred Smith) who is dangling $10 million in sponsorship money in front of the Big East in an attempt to buy Memphis into the Big East.
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Question for you guys:
Would a Longhorn sports network really generate so much more additional revenue that it’s worth turning down the Big Ten?
The Big Ten Network is already off the ground and a proven success. Moreover, a network spanning conferences would seeming add synergies across member states beyond just the footprint. E.g., although I live in Michigan, I’d want to watch a game between Ohio State and Indiana.
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I don’t understand it either, but as I posted above, UF is supposedly making $10 million on local broadcast rights and UGA made $11.6 million on top of the SEC’s $17 million deal.
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Texas has said privately that BevoTV would net then $40M/year
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Of course, that assumes they’re in a conference that provides marketable content
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which if you think about is a MAJOR RUB.
Texas wants a good conference, to play, so they can exploit them and use them for their own profit with out sharing it with them.
Sounds like a great deal!
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I wouldn’t doubt it at all if the LSN could pull that much money. Visions of being the NCAA’s version of the Yankees fit the Texas style. Of course you basically take a piss on your conference mates to follow that path.
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if, indeed, the horns have turned away from the big ten, i don’t think the network is the prime cause.
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Kirk Bohls: Pac 10 commish Larry Scott, deputy comm. Kevin Weiberg going to Lubbock and Austin today to hand out formal invites.
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http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N228PK/history/20100613/1610Z/KCLL/KLBB
Scott and Weiberg landed at Lubbock less than an hour ago at 12:30pm Central Daylight Time.
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50% chance Larry Scott revokes invite upon actually SEEING Lubbock.
*shudder*
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I have told our teams to expect $17 million a year in revenue from our next TV deal. I am also expecting catastrophic inflation before then.
Fake Dan Beebe
http://wenbingintwitter.appspot.com/DanBeebe
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hank,
I do not know about fake, he sounds like dan to me!
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NEWS FLASH!!!!
NEW CONFERENCE FORMED TODAY!!!!
For Immediate release:
Today a new conference was formed when the University of Texas and the University of Notre Dame announced the formation of the Texas Dame (TD for short). The TD will have two members and will be divided into the East Division (Notre Dame) and the West Division (Texas). Each division will control its own content and OOC schedule. The schools will meet in a CCG at the end of the season to determine the BCS rep for the conference.
more details to follow after the photo shoot is over.
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Update:
Deal is off….
Teams could not agree on who would wear Home Uniforms in Championship Game.
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I shoulda seen it coming………
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Now that’s a conference we could all sink our teeth into!
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Can’t see OU going to the SEC without OK St or TX. Are they really going to play an SEC schedule plus those 2 rivals out of conference?
Hence unless the SEC is willing to offer aTm, OU, AND OK St, OU goes with TX.
Keeping the band together in a B10-too is probably just a negotiating tool and a way to show the Wed. Texas legislative hearing that all options were given due consideration. Perhaps also to make sure the P10 doesn’t bring in tougher Utah instead of closer and easier to beat KS.
Regarding the Big Ten (sic) (sic) and some last minute shocking deal, uh, maybe. Someone had an interesting post on the NW board wondering if they’d take OU if it gets TX and ND, and why OU or aTM is necessary to get TX.
A crazy thought: With the nexus of college football in Austin this weekend mapping out the future, could we see a Grand Compromise that shifts the expected 16-school super conference template back to 12?
If TX and OU go to the SEC, college football becomes permanently and severely unbalanced. Not good. If TX and ND go to the B10+ and aTm and OU to the SEC and form super conferences, the P10 almost certainly can’t go past 14 and probably not 12. Again unbalanced and a bit of a mess.
But if TX, aTm, and OU stay and take the B10-too back to 12, theirs a chance to end the arms race for now with everyone staying or reaching 12. SEC may have found the ACC too tough a nut to crack, so they’d be good with that. The P10 would be relieved. If TX is off the table and ND has her heels dug in, would B10+ be satisfied with NE and agree to a ceasefire?
What might make this viable and lasting would be if TX gets most of the conferences to agree to a BCS overhaul into some kind of playoff system. SEC and ACC have been for that before, I could see the vulnerable P10 under new leadership agreeing if it capped conference size at 12, allowing them to maintain their academic ‘purity.’ Same for the BEast if it staves off B10+ and ACC raids. So that could be 5 of the 6 BCS conferences in favor.
I’ve not seen a leak directly hinting in that direction, just pure speculation on my part. But recall that Delany at one point was in favor of a +1 playoff, only to have the B10+ presidents shoot him down. Not inconceivable that he could come around to a bowl-based playoff plan based on a 12-school conference template. See this post and the article it links to:
https://frankthetank.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/the-real-economic-reason-for-ncaa-tournament-expansion-avoiding-a-pay-cut/#comment-58777
(post at April 6, 2010 at 3:09 pm)
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Playoffs Now,
Come on, now your talking rationally … do you think these guys want to act rational?
Seriously, for any scenario like you laid out to work we would need some unifying authority to broker the deal. Something like a strong NCAA or BCS Chairman to push all parties towards what’s best for everyone. As far as I know there isn’t anyone like that out there.
Actually, we’re in this “arms race” that we’re in now precisely because there is no one unifying, authoritative, body like the NCAA or BCS to broker a deal.
In my opinion the expansion war continues because all the parties are looking out for what is in their best interest and there is no super authority figure to reign in the expansion.
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I posted this above but I’ll put it down here because it applies to what you are saying. The NCAA say it’s not their place:
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/ncaa/ncaa/ncaa+news/ncaa+news+online/2010/division+i/ncaa+statement+on+conference+expansion
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eapg,
Good link. Thanks for the confirmation regarding NCAA’s position.
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The Pac 10 would have to add another team to get to 12 (most likely Utah), and then would have to break the bad news to members that, without the Texas market to pump up their TV contract, members will actually be receiving LESS from the conference TV contract than before. And, CU, which was already looking at having to borrow $10 million to make up for the Big XII withdrawal penalty, would probably just have to give up DI sports at that point. The Texas to the Pac 10 deal has to happen or the Pac 10 is screwed.
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It ain’t over ’til the fat lady sings “Texas, Oh, Texas.” Could the Big Ten offer Texas one of the alternate BTN channels, for a price? Thoughts, anyone?
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No way in heck. not only dont they want to give texas something the other schols are getting but the big ten speaks denaro. They understand that giveing texas an option to make more money than the rest of the schools fundamentally changes things in ways they could no longer address. Texas get mad one day and they want to take their ball and go home. Now if the ball they own is 1/12 of a ball then thats a more dificult devorce than you bargin for. Texas can have their LSN and be indipendent. But the head of any confrence that allows this is a dam fool. Possibly soone rather than later but just the same.
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But couldn’t the BT make the same offer to the other BT schools? I doubt any of them would take them up on the offer, since it wouldn’t be free and would require a lot of work to set up. Just a thought. Anyone know anything about the logistics of this?
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Texas would be paying the BT (and Fox) for the channel but would save the expenses of setting up their own network. And they’d be promoting a BT school.
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And we’d all get a 24/7 dose of Texas cheerleaders.
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That offer wuld only be viable for half of the confrence. the rest would not be able to make the kind of money Texas or a Michigan or an Ohio State would. Their interest are best served in a full confrence Network.
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no biggie, doug, but it’s “texas, our texas”.
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I’ve proposed (lost the link, sorry) that the Big 10 could do 6 “regional” channels that focused even more intensely on certain schools.
For example, BigTenLocal in…
PA/NJ (assuming Rutgers)
OH/MI
IL/IN
MN/WI/IA/NE
Texas (Assuming Texas and/or aTm)
Notre Dame (assuming ND)
While the Big 10 network would be virtually a national channel on basic cable with that lineup of schools, you’d have consumers in each state who would LOVE more programming of minor sports from their favorite local school. It’d be Tier 2 or Tier 3…and it would cost, but it would make the league more money overall.
If the BTN thinks 40 million per school will be a walk in the park with the right 16 schools, then I think that an extra 2-5 million per school could be added by creating BigTenLocal channels.
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Latest Information from the Aggies. BTW, Tx set to announce conference affiliation Tuesday 11:00 AM, Tech Tuesday 2:00 PM and OU Wednesday PM according to the Press.
Hop
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Posted: Today 11:15 AM
Sunday Morning Realignment Update (10:30 AM)
Here’s what I have so far since my update last night….
First of all, with something as big as this decision is, you are going to get opinions and second guessing from everybody involved from the faculty senate, to the state and local politicians, to really anybody with a dog in this hunt including the BOR’s who have people whispering in their ear right now. So it doesn”t surprise my contacts that these perceived speed bumps are cropping up this morning.
With that said, I’m told this is more noise than real threats and that the mold has been cast. Hopefully, the power brokers aren’t under-estimating this “noise”. I’m still being told that short of a drastic turn of events, the SEC move will happen. There’s no backroom dealing or maneuvering with Texas right now. In fact, my source says that Texas officials at the very top of the food chain were well aware of A&M’s interest in the SEC and when A&M brought the SEC to the meeting on Thursday they knew where A&M was going but really didn’t blink on their plans to go to the Pac-16. And while Texas graduates in the state’s media and Longhorn Internet websites are having a hissy fit about the Aggies making the surprise move and possibly “ruining” their brokered Pac-16 deal, the Texas admin seems resolute and unfazed by the emminent departure of A&M to the SEC. The overriding factor for Texas is that they wholeheartedly believe the revenue model for the Pac-16 is lucrative and with so many of their administrators with ties to Cal-Berkley and the powerful and prestigious University of California system, they see the Pac-10 as a great cultural and research fit. If you go back 15-20 years you”ll see that almost every university president came from a prestigious California university.
On the flip side, you have Texas A&M officials and their influential donors with a lot of ties to the oil industry and the Gulf of Mexico. As I mentioned yesterday, there’s a lot of established relationships there and it makes for a close cultural fit. Seriously, could you imagine the corps marching at Cal-Berkley? Anyway, the economics of the deal are simply too good to pass up. First of all, there’s the guaranteed $17-20 million in TV revenues. Second, SEC schools travel well and with A&M being the new kid on the block and the reputation of Kyle Field, Bryan-College Station and the state of Texas will see a lot of tourism dollars roll in each fall. To that end, I was told that the SEC visitor ticket allocation is much more generous than the Big 12….something like 15,000 vs the current 5,000. So Aggie fans better get ready for a lot more opposition in the stands…but that’s also a reason and a compelling argument why A&M may need that south end zone expansion especially if ticket sales increase as expected. I’ve also heard first-hand that Byrne is already complaining about the student block and won’t have enough revenue-generating seats if and when this SEC deal is finalized.
The other component here is sponsorships and luxury suites. It’s no secret that A&M’s corporate sponsorships (i.e. Gallery Furniture?) have been lacking. The SEC enhances A&M’s ability to get some lucrative corporate sponsorships given that more of A&M’s games at Kyle Field will be on national TV and that the stadium will be filled to the brim with a more diverse audience (as in 15,000 fans from Baton Rouge, Gainesville, Atlanta, Knoxville, etc.). It’s just a lot more exposure for the sponsors both in the stadium and on the TV screen.
Thus, A&M sees the SEC as the better financial and cultural move. Not once have I heard high level sources say “we’re sticking it to Texas.” That may sound good on the Internet boards, but this aspect of it has nothng to do with what is fueling the university in this direction. A&M simply doesn’t believe the Pac-16 model is a financially strong model in the long run. That’s it.
And as far as academics, the current BIg 12 has three institutions considered Top 50 caliber – A&M, Texas, Colorado. If A&M joins the SEC, the conference will have three Top 50 academic institutions – A&M, Vanderbilt, Florida. Granted, the middle tier of institutions is stronger in the Big 12 (Missouri, Kansas) than the SEC.
Anyway, I heard the meetings with SEC commissioner Slive are going well. The last I heard he was headed out with BOR Jim Wilson to Wilson’s ranch outside of town last night for dinner and more talks. Sources say everything is going smoothly so far and theyb haven’t encountered any speed bumps that would cause either partry to pause at this deal. Remember, these talks have been going on in some form or fashion for a while now so there’s not much that can crop up and surprise anybody.
On another note, I was also told that the threat from Texas about never playing the Aggies again has been overblown by these same Texas media people. In fact, one non-A&M political source told me that the two schools will eventually play again and that ESPN has already been approached about a TV package. No details or time frame on that, just simply a phone call or two to gauge ESPN’s interest in discussing a proposal when the time is right. There may be a brief hiatus, but there’s too much money for both schools to leave on the table to simply never play again. Remember, this is about money, right?
Hop
Posted: Today 11:28 AM
Re: Sunday Morning Realignment Update (10:30 AM)
You know, everything in the public media says OU is definitely going to the Pac-16 and that’s probably where they will land, but I do know that OU officials and SEC officials are still in contact…to what extent and what that means, I don’t know but they are communicating.
Also, somebody told me that Chip Brown is reporting that A&M is doing everything in their power to bring OU along. Man, for a guy that has gotten soi much national attention, he is so wrong. A&M is not influencing or brokering anything. A&M has its standalone offer. What is the motivation for A&M? In fact, A&M would prefer to be the lone SEC option for recruits in the DFW area. Brown and these guys still think this is all based on A&M tryting to find a way to scew over Texas. No, it’s about what’s best for Texas A&M. Period.
Hop
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wes,
does an A&M + Va Tech scenario have wings with the A&M folks?
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I guess my question is.
If A&M is added another will have to follow.
How do they make the 40 million dollar a year guarantee?
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Also, somebody told me that Chip Brown is reporting that A&M is doing everything in their power to bring OU along. Man, for a guy that has gotten soi much national attention, he is so wrong. A&M is not influencing or brokering anything. A&M has its standalone offer. What is the motivation for A&M? In fact, A&M would prefer to be the lone SEC option for recruits in the DFW area.
I completely agree with this. Texas A&M has zero incentive to bring along Oklahoma.
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vincent,
back to the A&M + Va Tech thing.. went to some fan sites and this seems more plausible than I first thought. It is interesting as it seems like UVA / Va Tech is a mini UT / Va Tech.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/405335-sec-expansion-texas-am-has-votes-could-travel-to-sec-whos-next
this link is to the bleacher report, but the comments section makes me think the writer for the kentucky paper knew there was smoke after all.
If all this comes to pass, it would make slive a pretty smart guy indeed. On the plus side the SEC picks first, so MD has cover to jump to the Big 10.
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ps.. UT / Va Tech should have been UT / A&M.
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So if Texas goes to the Pac 16, their division will be:
-Texas
-Texas Tech
-Oklahoma
-Oklahoma State
-Kansas
-Colorado
-Arizona
-Arizona State
If they stayed w/ the Big 12 (10), their conference would be:
-Texas
-Texas Tech
-Oklahoma
-Oklahoma State
-Kansas
-Texas A&M (for Colorado)
-Missouri (for Arizona)
-Kansas State (for Arizona State)
-Baylor
-Iowa State
Why leave? There’s no Pac 10 network right now? You’ll be -2 timezones with a PST focus and segregated into an eastern division. If you stay, you basically have the same opponents. I really believe Tx didn’t want Nebraska to leave and I still really believe their top choice is to keep the Big 12 together. Maybe I’m missing something that the Pac 16 is going to provide??
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Well the Pac-10 Network is what.
I mean, they’re dumping Missouri/Kansas/Baylor/Iowa for the Arizona schools.
They’re not going to lose any of the Texas TV markets so A&M is a wash.
They’re making a conference of the fastest growing group of states, and they think a network is a better solution than the Pac-10/Big 12 alliance talks for TV negotiating.
Texas + USC probably provides the oomph to get the network throughout the footprint, although I would guess that the Pac-16 East is much more valuable.
Texas/Oklahoma/Arizona seem to me much more valuable football territory than California/Oregon/Washington.
Only South California really comes close to Texas/Oklahoma in terms of intensity, etc.
They just think the synergy is what would make it work, and that they’re replacing schools that need to be carried with the Arizona schools that justify their own markets much more easily.
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steve,
go back to my post this morning (the long one) and read #2 about the value of the Top 10 “brands”. The Big 10 now has 4, a combined Pac 16 would have 3, and a Big 12 would have 2. To get the biggest contract 3 is better than 2 or 1.
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Saying “Southern California is the closest in intensity to the state of Texas and Oklahoma” is like saying that Rosanne Barr is the closest in hotness to Heidi Klum.
It’s a pretty lame statement. The PAC10 network–with its equal revenue sharing among 16 schools (WSU, OrStU, Tech, OkSt)–is a BAD deal for Texas financially.
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I think right now things look better on paper than they will in real life. I think the time zone thing will continue to be a problem. If not the lack of frequency in playing the west may be.Who knows? At this point the big deal maker looks like Texas beingable to bring some guys from the old neighborhood in which they will still dominate. we’ll be watching how this worksout?
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The time zone would be a killer. A few of your games would be late if not evening (Arizona).
One other factor to look at is the officiating. Are you going to get homered when you visit USC, Cal or some other west coast school. And USC being the golden child, how much will the Pac 10 protect them.
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Cal, Stanford and Wazzoo to beat on?
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Throw in an old Dawg still crippled from its NCAA sanctions and an old horse about to be crippled with NCAA sanctions. Gotta’ love it.
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Not to mention a young Duck that keeps shooting himself in the foot while checking out Beaver.
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Steve,
You’re correct:
A) Texas really wanted NUL to stay, because the Big XII is what is best for TU.
B) UT would do whatever it could to keep the XII alive because the alternative of going to the Pac 10 is not great for athletics (although it would be a nice move for academics and research).
The problem for UT keeping any XII alive may be getting ISU, KU, Mizzou and K State to stay! If those schools jointly jump to the Big East they are in a stable conference and have a chance of winning a football title. If they stay along with Texas they are back in the same boat of depending on Texas for survivability. If TU gets the whim to leave in the future there might not be a Big East to throw them a life line.
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The problem IMO with UT is they are not willing to make the league and its members equal.
Until that is on the table why would the others stay?
Chip Brown:
Unequal revenue sharing formula wouldn’t change if Big 12-Lite was to survive. But each school would have $17m to console themselves.
31 minutes ago via TweetDeck
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Chip/Dodds/Beebe’s numbers sound awfully optimistic. A crap TV deal is part of what led to the demise of the Big 12, and Beebe’s abilities as a negotiator have proven to be exactly none the last few weeks. Trust him, all is well.
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eapg,
my understanding is they hired this guy to run the numbers….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff
so the numbers will all work out in the end.
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How is an unstable conference like the Big 12-lite going to get $17m, when the ACC could only get $12m-$13m (and that was only because Fox made an unexpected run that drove the price up). Even if the Big 12-lite was to survive, its weaknesses have already been revealed and the blood is in the water. I don’t see how they can garner a tv deal that would be anywhere near the SEC’s (or the ACC’s for that matter). Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Fox has already stated to Beebe that they want the TV rights. But I would think that Fox would much rather have a Pac 16 tv contract.
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If Oklahoma flees to the SEC along with A&M, that division is terrible. Texas will have to consider all options, including giving the Big Ten one last look.
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Good post by Hop / Wes Haggard.
A&M is going to the SEC, OU doesn’t need A&M to broker anything but if they go as a two team package it makes life easier for the SEC…. and helps strengthen the west.
Again UT is KILLING themselves by clinging on to the LSN. OU and A&M don’t have to put up with that crap, it is the direct reason Nebraska left.
So here is the rapidly developing UT situation.
Nebraksa, Colorado, A&M and OU are leaving them.
They will be in an 8 team conference with Tech, K ST, Baylor, OSU, Kansas, Iowa State, and Missouri.
If they continue to cling to the LSN do they…
A) Stay with those schools and add a few more…
B) Leave for the Big Ten with Notre Dame giving up LSN..
C) Join the Pac 10 with OSU, Texas Tech, Kansas, Baylor, and Utah?
Also, check this story about Alvarez..
http://host.madison.com/sports/college/football/article_a3678914-76aa-11df-b2c8-001cc4c002e0.html
Nebraska considered in JANUARY
More important – The biggest change Alvarez would like to see is the Big Ten expanding from eight to nine conference games in football. “It would eliminate a lot of the scheduling problems that we now have with 12 regular-season games,” Alvarez said. “It would eliminate having to pay a million bucks for a non-conference opponent, a buy-in game. Our fans would love nine Big Ten games, and it would be good for the league.”
Less OOC games, making Notre Dames life difficult. Only portion of Big Ten pie not shared – ticket sales from OOC home games. Big Ten schools won’t want to go On the road OOC, and ND isn’t going to schedule permanant away games.
Plus a 9 game conference schedule helps feed the BTN.
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Patrick, good link and a good read.
I would recommend to anyone to listen carefully to what Barry Alvarez and Joe Paterno have to say. A lot of insight can be gained by what they say and what they don’t say. I kind of get the feeling that the Big Ten uses them to put information out.
Both Barry and Joe have been proponents of sound expansion that makes sense for the Big Ten as it benefits all institutions.
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Another thought on the concept of “giving up the Longhorn Sports Network”…
The Big 10 Network (or the future PAC10 network, for that matter) would gear their content to the most rabid audience. If, let’s say, the conference makes 15% of their income for the BTN off of the state of Texas alone, well, their channel’s content will be 15% Texas schools. There won’t necessarily be equity.
I’m not saying the BTN (or future PAC10 network) will BECOME the LSN, but it will sure have a heavy Texas flavor.
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Again,
The Big Ten would appear to be a goldmine for Texas and they don’t even seem to be considering it.
The PAC10 offers none of the conference stability, monetary assurance or research windfall that the Big Ten does and unlike the SEC they would have
a good chance competing for the championship each year. I would LOVE to
know what Delany has offered and why TX have rejected it. The academia at both TEXAS and NOTRE DAME are on board with the Big Ten, but not the administrators or alumni.
By the way, why don’t people use the obvious NB when refering to Nebraska?
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I meant….referring
Texas Tech anyone?
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Because it’s the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, so UNL or NU is preferred I guess?
Anyways, the Pac-10 made a better offer by providing for a geographic fit.
Academically and probably monetarily the Big Ten is the best fit, but geographically/athletically and tradition-wise, the Pac-10 offer comes out way ahead.
Thus, measuring the two against each other, it’s not really surprising that UT wants to go to the Pac-10.
They’re getting the current Big 12 remade into a Pac-16 East and without much crossover travel to the West Coast.
It’s really not hard to see why the Pac-16 is a better offer. We have to be realistic about what we can offer to UT.
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zeek,
WE can offer A GREAT DEAL.
The issue is wether UT would put their ego in check to accept it.
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I think this is crucial. Do you get a texas that plays team ball or do we get one that wants favors and thinks the rest of the confrence is against them? For goodness sakes they dont come in getting nothing! They come in getting a great deal includeing dollars.
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I agree with you. For Texas, if they know they are moveing on anyway, the pac10 offer gives them a little more comfort with all the other schools comeing from the Big IIX. They also will still atheletically dominate this division. With more Texas schools than just one, they have a stronger chance to poltically push their weight around the pac 16. The benefits of the Big Ten were strong but this was the most comfortable arrangement. Or so it looks, FOR NOW?
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@zeek
Yes. UNL or NU is preferred. Nebraska fans will recognize both.
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But BT folks are used to Northwestern as NU so UNL is probably the most polite and accurate 🙂
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How is NB obvious? What does that even mean? The state abbreviation is NE.
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I didn’t mean in any OFFICIAL capacity. Nor does it matter to me, I just wondered.
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NB for Nebraska makes as much sense as NW for Northwestern and people do that all the time.
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So you’re going to stick with the laughable NUL, good luck with that catching on.
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Do you mean UNL?
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Nebraska kinda of threw a grenade at Austin when they decided to join on Friday. Any sweetheart deal for UT immediately poisons the well with Nebraska before the ink is even dry. UT wants its BevoTV and is apparently willing to sacrifice everything to have it.
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add
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I think the Big Ten is going to have to compromise on their equal revenue sharing model to snare Texas. BevoTV represents part of reality: that fact Texas estimates it is worth $40M per year is because of the fact that so much of the revenue from Texas broadcats revenue comes from Texas fans and TVs. Texas, somewhat rightfully feels sharing this is subsidizing others. The flip side is that you need marketable opponents to have content.
I think a good compromise would be to share revenue equally but carve out certain content that schools would be free to monetize on their own, that would not come under the conference umbrella. This would maintain equality” conference revenues equally shared, schools have equal rights to monetize certain content on their own. Yes, Texas would retain an economic advantage, but they probably should have one given the demographics. It would not be as great as it would if they retained exclusive rights. If no one is willing to do this it creates an incentive for Texas to eventually try to go independent. The risk for them would be putting together a schedule. Alvarez’ comments about 9 conference games is designed to address that urge (as well as ND’s existing state)
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Is the Big 10 about equal
OR
Is it about being unequal
Once you change, you are heading down the rabbit hole.
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right. the Big Ten is not going to chip away at what works for them. they may make some concessions for an initial entry period but the objective is to get everyone on the same basis. Texas has every right obviously to say they want different but I doubt we would change something we have considered fundamental.
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Fully agree Duffman. This is part of the reason the B12 is imploding. Everyone is equal just some are more equal than others cannot be the slogan for the B10.
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Think twice before letting Texas plant the seeds of destruction.
Nebraska handed their media rights to the Big Ten, lock, stock and barrel. That’s about the money, sure. But in doing that they cut the throat of Nebraska Educational Television, or at least made their continued existence harder to maintain, because a lot of the donations they receive to stay afloat are no doubt based on them carrying Nebraska non-revenues like volleyball and baseball. Those are some long-term, local Lincoln and campus relationships.
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re: Nebraska Educational Television
Iowa Public Television still televises some Hawkeye wrestling matches, so its not like NET won’t be able to show anything. I imagine they’ll be allowed to televise anything the BTN isn’t interested in, which is likely 90%+ of all low-revenue sports.
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Good to know, although NET would probably lose some content. Guess I’m really not familiar with what gets put on the BTN. Would Penn State/Nebraska volleyball fall through the cracks?
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Aren’t NE & PSU vball powers? If so, there is a decent chance that it gets carried by the BTN. Unless there is a midweek matchup of 10th and 11th place mens’ basketball teams at the same time, which would trump it. 🙂
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I’m from Nebraska. What’s a basketball?
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@eapg
Hopefully you’ll remember once the new arena is built.
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😉
http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=100&ATCLID=204944369
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In that case then i think Texas has made a big mistake in not going independent. You say Texas deserves more because they have a larger population. The conference model is not like the US House of Representatives, its more like the senate. Else Iowa with the smallest population should benefit the least and Northwestern with the smallest student body should benefit even worst. Each of those teams have been Big ten Champs in the last 12 years. The Texas model is for a rich to get richer model. What the hell good is that for other conference members???
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“Deserve more” isn’t really the right way to put it. They are, in effect, putting in more valuable assets than anyone else. Why should they get a lower return than everyone else?
Why is sllowing all conference revenue to be shared equally and allowing each school to retain exactly the same rights to monetize on their own unequal? Is it wrong that one school may be able to sell that for more than another unfair?
If you sit back and think about what you’re saying, you a really crafting an argument that economics might dictate Texas is a poor fit for the Big Ten.
All this leaves the CIC aside. That is a valuable asset, obviously. Texas has to believe they come out ahead economically by being in the Big Ten. I am sure they believe they likely do not when looking at athletic revenue streams alone. And this is logical, because the Big Ten likewise believes that shares will increase if Texas is in the conference. That can only be true if 1) they are siphoning revenue from Texas or 2) they is some uncaptured synergy a merger creates.
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Would then Texas be siphoning off prestige and membership in the CIC and AAU? Would they be benefitting from the security of most secure conference relationship ever? If Texas wants to make more money they can by selling more T-shirts in Big ten country than they ever have in their lives. As it is they would come in at no less than a win, win situation when you look at the increased conference payout of $22M, CIC membership, Stability, higher regards academically the many school in their region as through their connection with the Big ten conference.
Now I don’t fault you your logic, just your (Texas) motives. I believe I have stated what your motives should be in joining the conference. Yours appear strictly to be monetary. I’m only pointing out your giving something and your getting something. You’re getting something money can’t buy. There are any number of school administrators’ that would agree with me emphatically. Now if you want to play the role of jerry Jones lite you may not. I would readily agree that if it’s all about the money then the only real option for Texas is to go 100% independent ie Notre Dame. And LSN deal is a conference breaker, nothing less.
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I agree it is not all about money. I agree with you on the value of the Big Ten. I am a Nebraska fan and actually have no love at all for Texas.
But it clearly is about value no matter how you want to measure it.
Texas is unlike most; they don’t value stability as much as others, which is logical from their perspective. They estimate BevoTV to be worth almost twice the $22M share you mention. And the Big Ten gives up little in the way of tradition taking Texas; Texas will be giving up much of what has historically revved up their fanbase and will make it so many more games are played a long distance away. It was unique in a way to have so many annual games be played in your own state. I think the academic side of UT values CIC, but I have heard many Texas fans say Texas gets plenty of research spend on its own and doesn’t need help. And they likely bring as much to the CIC as any current member in any event, although the increase in research would come from the synergies with Big Ten schools.
BevoTV is a conference breaker in its current form. I agree. Yet there may be a piece of these rights which may not be.
I think Texas would be better off in the Big Ten over time. But from their perspective I can see why they aren’t convinced.
I grew up in Nebraska. I lived in Big Ten country longer than anywhere else. I have lived in Europe twice. I also lived in Texas. That was the biggest cultural difference of all. If Texas can’t at least have enough window-dressing to pretend they have a somewhat Texas-like piece of the Big Ten, they won’t be able to make themselves come.
If that’s a dealbreaker, so be it. Texas will be making some sacrifices in any event. But something that has to be billed as complete equality won’t fly.
Texas is culturally more about getting pedigree recognized than equality, unlike the North.
If throwing a bone to pedigree recognition is too much, Texas is a bad fit. In the abstract I would love to see Texas in the Big Ten. We’ll see; it may be turning out that it is simply a bad fit.
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Half a dozen or so blog entries back, I ventured that Texas might end up cutting off their nose to spite their face. You’ve provided the best explanation of why. It still makes absolutely no sense to me, but it is what it is.
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The Big Ten should add Pitt, Maryland,Virginia, and Rutgers.
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FWIW
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=53927
I think they do not know..
I would rank Frank at the top, mrsec a distant second, and Chip Brown / OB near the bottom. Obviously these guys would be at the bottom because they do not even mention frank the tank.
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How funny/ironic would it be if Texas says they want to keep the big12, but the 4 left in the north say no thanks, we are going to the big east.
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I think if those four had any balls this is exactly what they would do. They could do n worst than increas their football prowess in the BE. And in the case of Kansas and missouri, they would be ready to play Basketball. The Big IIX exist far less for them than the Big East would.
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wouldn’t that make 20 schools for basketball? cumbersome?
I joked about it before but the Moutain West with Boise State might be a good alternative on the cusp of BCS status 2 or 3 of those 4 could get them there. it would probably be at least the equal of the current Big East.
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Not in football season. Now they did get greedy in basketball and thats their problem. But Even the BE can now see that Football is where the bulk of the money is. Even if all eyes turn to them and the ACC in the middle of winter, their is an opportuniy here where there was only impending doom.
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agree re the revenue situation but its been my impression that the flaw is that the basketball only schools limit expanion flexibility. if you add 4 dual sports schools you get a critical mass for football. but even with the B12N 4 no one is going to look at them as a football conference so how good will the deal they can arrange be? and their calling card is basketball and they are bumping that up to 20 schools. that would likely be cumbersome to manage.
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yeah Han, something would have to be done. So who do you get rid of? Some of the basketball (Only) names are as significant in their sport as Nebraska in Football. So now the BE is kiking someone out in the cold.
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Basketball only Big East schools.
Georgetown
Villanova
DePaul
St. Johns
Marquette
Providence
Seton Hall
Rutgers (plays both sport but bad basketball)
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Stv
I don’t know who they get rid off or if they should. the structure is just plain flawed and has been for awhile. frankly if they want to take a long term view and no just be reactive they should either go one of two routes. either recognize they are a basketball conference and let those dual schools that want to move on or play a limited or independant football schedule. they can replace any that leave with good basketball schools. or they can encourage schools like Villanova to upgrade football if they have it. they don’t need all of them to do it but they need to get to about 12. but I think they have to become a more uniform profile. this life as a centaur is inherently unstable.
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Maybe the Big east starts a basketball only league that’s loosely affiliated with the Big East yet separate. They can then focus on upgrading BE football and growing from within like bringing up a Villanova to Div I football. Maybe try to get Marquette and others to start football to eventually move up?
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Problem with the Big East is that you have 8 only basketball schools and 8 schools that play both football & basketball. ND is the deciding vote.
Over on the Big East boards they have complained for years about the basketball schools and ND. The football schools would like to get rid of ND but the basketball schools (I believe all Catholic) wont do do it.
To make matters worse, if the Big East football schools would leave (which they have talked about), they would lose their BCS spot.
Thus they are tied to the Big East basketball schools & ND.
Now if the Big 12 would implode, could not the Big East football schools join the remaining Big 12 schools and use the Big 12’s BCS spot.
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I say, I say,
Perfidious Kansas State!
/foghornleghornvoice
Entirely possible. Depends on what the Big East can offer, but you’d think if they can get close, who knows? Pick up and escape this dysfunctional mess en masse. Anybody got the tail number for Marinatto’s plane?
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Marinatto rides Megabus.
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If something like that were even remotely probable it would be hilarious.
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What’s remotely probable at this point needs to get a temporary suspension of its logical definition. Texas A&M may be bailing on Texas. Who knows where OU is really at? One would think they can’t be happy with the prospect of being at the mercy of Pac-10 officiating on a regular basis.
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Nebraska complains about B12 referrees-Wait until you see B10 referees! All the B10 fans on this board can tell you.
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@Bullet – There is a little known provision in the Big Ten charter that all referees are hired and paid for by the University of Michigan.
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Do they know whether onside kicks go ten yards? 😉
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If Texas joins can we hire half of them?
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Frank – There is a well-known codicil in the SEC charter stating that any close call goes in Bama’s favor. If a call doesn’t go Bama’s way, the ref gets put on double-secret probation.
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For anyone that is interested, here is the radio interview that Gene Stallings had that made the rounds in all of the news outlets on Friday evening and yesterday. If you read between the lines, while he says little, he actually says a lot (and I think that the events since this interview are evidence of that). Here is the link (you have to go to the 20:00 minute mark and start from there):
[audio src="http://www.finebaum.com/media/archives/show/20100611_PFRN_Hour2.mp3" /]
I personally think that aTm is extremely lucky to have someone like Coach Stallings on their board of regents. I personally think that he has played a major roll in opening up this choice for aTm (if you’ll notice near the end of the interview, he admits that he has ben in conversations with people in the SEC). Coach Stallings is an honorable and standup man who will only do what he truely thinks is in the best interest of his university (aTm). And if he was one of the main forces behind opening up this option, it was only for that reason (because he thought it was in aTm’s best interest). If the SEC does end up getting aTm, I think Slive and aTm both owe him a great deal of gratitude. JMHO
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bama,
as a SEC guy, would slive try and pair the A&M add with Va Tech as they share the southern and military culture?
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Definitely, if they both came into the conference. Each team in the SEC has one permanent cross divisional rival (Bama/Tenn, AU/UGA, LSU/Fla, ect). Personally, if both schools were to come, I can’t think of a better cross divisional game than the two “cadet” schools.
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Bamatab – the only way that would work is for the SEC to go to 9 conference games. I’m sure the coaches wouldn’t want that, but the choices would be:
#1 – 9 conference games and keep the permanent cross-division rivalry games. Like I said in an earlier post, these games are important to Aub/UGA and Bama/UTn. I really don’t think Ark, USCe, Ole Miss, UK, Miss St & Vandy care. LSU and UF would be relieved not to be subjected to that carnage every year.
#2 – Keep an 8 game conference schedule and end the permanent cross divisional rivalry games.
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Alan, I do not see the SEC doing anything to damage those rivalries (actually they are traditions). UGA/AU is the oldest rivalry in the south and Bama/Tenn is Tenn’s most important historic rivalry. The rivalries and traditions of the SEC is what separates it from the other conferences. I don’t see them making the same mistake that the Big 12 did by killing the yearly rivalry of OU/Neb. They would have to figure out some way to keep those two rivalries.
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Bamatab – if only UTx, OU and either Okla St or TTech could see things as clearly as A&M, and come over to the SEC, them Bama and Auburn can move over to the East and preserve those rivalries.
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Amen to that Alan. I can’t believe that OU is willing to be led around on UT’s leash. I thought they were a proud institution with the ability to sustain theirselves. If thet said they would join aTm, the SEC could then apply some real pressure to swing UT over.
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Chip Brown:
“Texas A&M turned down invite to join P10 in mtg today with P10’s Larry Scott and Kevin Weiberg in College Station, a Big 12 AD confirms.”
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Well, we saw that coming.
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YEA!
Now Joe Castiglione and OU..please grow a pair and do the same!
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The TexAgs.com insider says that the PAC-10 offer has not been turned down (yet).
[url]http://twitter.com/billyliucci[/url]
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“Just received word from two sources that Aggies have NOT turned down Pac-10 and are still weighing P10/SEC option” Billy Liucci – http://twitter.com/billyliucci
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A&M is a good grab for the SEC. congrats. (barring any last second action)
Will The SEC do the Big Ten a favor and start some ACC dominoes to fall?
Va Tech may loosen up an option for either Maryland or UVA, possibly both.
Somebody convince me UNC is an option? I have a very hard time thinking they could leave.
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I sure hope so. but I wish it would not be VTech. I would like to see them pick up some team in which they already overlap in televisoopn and recruiting. So far they score a B- with the A&M pick up. VTech gives them a A- . Texas and texas A&M would have been a A+ likewise Texas and Oklahoma.
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Agreed sounds like OU and TX are committed to each other. I guess SEC could focus on Missouri. Missouri B-Ball would cause some problems in the SEC.
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I have heard that the SEC is targeting
UNC
Maryland
Virginia Tech
In that order. Who knows what luck Slive will have?
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Assuming the Pac16 happens with UT (which I said *weeks* maybe even months ago, not days like zeek ;D), I predict ND will be in the B10. I told you guys that the unanimous vote thing in the P10 is irrelevant. ASU is in the P10! Come on. The writing has been on the wall. Starting with (I forget his name) the guy that helped form the BTN going to the P10. Don’t underestimate the TMZ report on OSU. And obviously OSU doesn’t go P10 unless OU and UT are already on board. I just hope the P16 doesn’t turn into the Big12 part deux.
It might take the SEC or ACC going to 16, too, but ND WILL be joining the B10. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but if two conferences go to 16, it’s a done deal. Not saying it’s right.
I don’t think the B10 waits … long. You can’t really compare the Pac10’s 16 to the B10’s 16. Totally different situation.
I have a very strong gut feeling that Syracuse will be in the B10. We’ve all already given our reasons as to why or why not a school should be added, so I won’t waste your time. I just really feel like it will happen. I can say that freely because in all likelihood SU goes to the ACC if the B10 doesn’t happen. So, I don’t really care. I have no idea why we have a B10 chancellor (Nancy Cantor) and have gone down in research. Does that lady care about anything besides being PC (changing us from the Orangemen to The Orange)?
I’d just like to say that it’s crazy how much just *one* coach totally ruined SU’s reputation in football. Wow. I stopped watching sports altogether, pretty much overlapping when the last coach was there, so it was a bit shocking to come back to that. Keep in mind that in the first year of the current coach, they beat Rutgers (as it should be!). SU will be back to respectability in football. SU isn’t just about basketball. They are the 16th winningest football program.
I think WVU and Vtech should join the SEC. Just feels right to me. Add A&M (hope they go P10) and some other school. The ACC should give blowies to the entire staff of UF and get them to join.
Zoltar has spoken. That is all.
p.s. I’m thoroughly amused by Vincent’s “If I say Maryland to the BigTen enough, it’ll eventually happen.” Just might work! I’m sure they’re listening.
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Jeeper,
The Pac ten had few options. The Biggest bang for their expansion buck was Texas. And Texas comes with baggage. The Big ten could have cobbled together a group that provide football, academics, Geographic’s and compatibility in many different ways including Texas, Notre Dame or neither.
I think that West Virginia is the best reason any University has to continually upgrade their academics. I think that West Virginia while it has a respectable Football and basketball program has problems in even the SEC would shy away from including them as they do nothing to bring up academics in the conference. Otherwise I would say the SEC is a possibility. They amount to no more than a geographic throw in.
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The corporate jet carrying Pac-10 commissioner Larry Scott and deputy commissioner Kevin Weiberg is scheduled to land in Austin at 4:45pm Central Time.
The pilot tried the same trick again as he did in the morning (Oklahoma City to Huntsville flight plan, veering off to land at College Station), filing a flight plan to fly into San Marcos before leaving Lubbock, and then changing plans in mid-flight to land in Austin.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N228PK
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LOL, this is good stuff. And technology can makes fools of us all.
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Flight scheduled from Austin to Kansas City
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Jeepers – “I have a very strong gut feeling that Syracuse will be in the B10. We’ve all already given our reasons as to why or why not a school should be added, so I won’t waste your time. I just really feel like it will happen. I can say that freely because in all likelihood SU goes to the ACC if the B10 doesn’t happen. So, I don’t really care. I have no idea why we have a B10 chancellor (Nancy Cantor) and have gone down in research.”
I wondered this as well, so I contacted the SU Research Department. For the record, SU hasn’t gone down in research. Apparently the previous administration was counting things in their totals that they shouldn’t have such as education grants, law program grants, construction grants, etc. Cantor cleaned that all up.
While we will never be on a par with the majority of Big Ten programs, we have been making great strides in research under Cantor and IF NYS follows the recommendations of the Task Force on Diversifying the New York State Economy through Industry-Higher Education Partnerships, SU could be in for a lot more state and private industry research monies in the very near future.
In the meantime, here are some links that might interest you:
http://www.syr.edu/greendatacenter/
http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/PR/PR_display.asp?prID=983
http://sumagazine.syr.edu/2010spring/orangematters/bioengineering.html
http://insidesu.syr.edu/2010/04/14/condensed-matter-physics/
http://insidesu.syr.edu/2009/10/08/syracuse-ischool-prof-lee-mcknight-receives-two-year-600000-nsf-grant-for-wireless-grid-project/
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2007/10/22/31579.aspx
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Thanks for the links, omni.
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Nancy Cantor cares about nothing but pushing her PC agenda,
She is the reason Illinois no longer has the chief either and did nothing to stop and probably encouraged the admissions scandal
As long as she is at Syracuse, they have no business getting anywhere close to the big ten
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bob – “Nancy Cantor cares about nothing but pushing her PC agenda,
She is the reason Illinois no longer has the chief either and did nothing to stop and probably encouraged the admissions scandal”
Weren’t the Admissions records reviewed from 2005-2009 more than a year after Cantor left?
I believe she was at Illinois for only three years 2001-2004 (01-02,02-03,03-04). Perhaps she left so quickly because she found the following from an article about UI to be true?
“For some critics, the (Admissions) scandal is the latest example of a pervasive culture in Illinois of corruption and patronage – the same culture that brought down former Gov. Rod Blagojevich earlier this year and, previously, numerous other politicians at all levels.”
Also, doesn’t appear to have been any corruption issues while she was Provost at Michigan either.
And so far, no examples of corruption have surfaced at SU with her as Chancellor. But time will tell I guess.
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I’ve been out a couple of days. What’s the latest rumor on Rice?
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Best cooked vs raw.
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loki,
UT heard Rice was joining the Big 12, so they up and joined the Pac 16. Go figure!
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Loki – word out of CUSA is that they are offended by your overtures on behalf of Rice to the Big Ten, so Rice will be expelled from CUSA to make room for Baylor.
Do you want a Sunbelt or a WAC application?
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UAA, please.
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Sorry, Delany is trying to break up the UAA now. He already has Chicago, so he’s working on bringing NYU for the New York market, Emory for the Sun Belt and Washington since Missouri doesn’t have the academics. And since he doesn’t want too many additions to the CIC from one conference, he will followup with John Hopkins to get Maryland.
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The corporate jet being used by Pac-10 officials for their trip to Oklahoma and Texas has filed a flight plan with the FAA to fly from Austin to Kansas City, with a departure time of 8:10pm Central Time.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N228PK/history/20100614/0110Z/KAUS/KMCI
We will know soon enough whether the flight plan is real or not. If the flight plan were real, then Pac-10 officials will visit the University of Kansas at Lawrence on Monday.
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What is curious: Lawrence, Kansas does have a general aviation airport with a long-enough runway (5700 feet) for corporate jets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Municipal_Airport_(Kansas)
I am suspicious of the flight plan that has been filed with the FAA, knowing that the pilot has changed flight plans twice already in mid-flight on Sunday (switching from Huntsville TX to land at College Station in the morning; switching from San Marcos to land at Austin in the afternoon.)
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Then is KC the decoy for Lawrence or Columbia?
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Both Lawrence, Kansas and Columbia, Missouri have general aviation airports suitable for corporate jets to land.
The pilot has to file a flight plan with the FAA in order for the FAA to clear a flight path for the jet ahead of time.
The flight plan has the jet going from Austin (Bergstrom) International (AUS) to Kansas City International (MCI).
Knowing that Lawrence is closer to Kansas City than Columbia is to Kansas City, one would expect the jet to be bound for either Kansas City or Lawrence.
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All this talk about Big Ten equality is completely bogus. According to their tax returns, Ohio State made $84 M off its football and basketball programs, and Indiana #36 M. Why, because Ohio State puts more butts in the seats and more eyes on the tube. Why deny that Texas, Our Texas (thanks for the correction) puts more butts in the seats and more eyes on the tube than anyone? If they’re willing to invest in a BTN channel, why not let them, when all the conference would benefit from the increased exposure? Sure, the Big Ten share a lot of stuff equally, but they aren’t totally socialistic. You have to have some capitalism or the entire conference falls on its butt because PSU, Mich, and OSU are gone. Why deny entry to the richest program out their all because of some fallacious idea of equality? Yes, sharing is great, sharing is wonderful, but you have to have money to share, and is Indiana going to make it for you?
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“out there” (correction) Got a bit carried away, I guess.
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TV revenue sharing in the Big Ten is equal. In the Big 12, it is not.
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I know, but if Texas invests in its own channel on the BTN network, paying the BT for it, and reaps a profit from it, why is that a problem, when it increases the eyes on the BTN?
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My point is that you have to allow for some capitalism for big cats like Texas, while sharing the profits of the other BTN channels.If the deal-breaker to Texas joining is that you won’t allow them (or any other team) a chance to invest their capital in your network, I think it’s stupid.
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In the Big Ten, the conference engages in the capitalism as far as media rights. When a big fish has some bad years, such as Michigan lately, the other conference members have their back. Or does Texas believe they’ll never have another down cycle?
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Because it’s a separate deal for TV rights. Rights which are deeded over to the conference by all other schools, with the proceeds being shared equally. If Ohio State, Michigan or Penn State haven’t complained about this, why would Texas get anywhere complaining about it? Do they hold themselves above the old line members of the Big Ten?
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To add to that, Doug, JoPa still says things about being the new guy and not rocking the boat. Now I know he’s blowing a little sunshine somewhere, but really, there’s nothing wrong with showing a little appreciation of what the Big Ten offer is and expressing a little humility as opposed to this Texas “Candygram, Landshark” routine. You won’t fall over dead, I promise.
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The Big Ten threw in all their assets for equal shares way back in the day when these assets did not have vastly different values. That’s the difference
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Doug, the big difference in revenue between Ohio State and Indiana is the ticket prices.
At Indiana, you pay just under $40.00 a ticket per game. There stadium seats about 50,000. For $230.00 you can get a full season of 6 tickets, for $30.00 a youth season ticket.
At Ohio State, as an alumnus I have the privilege of paying $148.00 (includes handling costs) for 2 tickets to one game. This does not include parking or anything else. Add any concessions, game day programs, etc and it goes up. This for 100,000 plus fans. Not including probably another 20,000 fans who just come to hang out and tail gate.
This does include what some boosters PAY (I believe it is $2500) to become a Buckeye Booster. This does not include the cost of tickets or the cost or parking.
This is why many buckeye fans travel so well. They have limited ability to acquire home tickets and it is easier to get away games.
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I would love to have UT in the B10. But if it means they get an unequal share of the TV rights, they can go to the P10, SEC, or wherever it is ND hangs out on Saturday morning.
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In the past month, I have come to question why the Big Ten would ever want Texas. Just look at all the schools that don’t want to be with them anymore: Colorado, Nebraska, aTm, maybe Oklahoma. Texas is the reason the Big XII, as we know it, is breaking up. Their consideration of the PAC10’s offer is strictly for selfish reasons. There certainly won’t be any synergy with basically two conferences, the old SWC and the old PAC8. As a member of the Big Ten, IMO, they would always be looking out for themselves at every turn.
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If the rumors of Oklahoma and aTm to the SEC are true, does that mean that Texas, Texas Tech and Oklahoma St are going to the Pac-10? How does that make sense for the Pac-10 or Texas? Oh, I forgot, Baylor is probably going with them.
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If it is just Texas, Texas Tech, and Oklahoma State, it doesn’t make sense for the Pac-10 or Texas. That is why Texas is now exploring other options (Big Ten, saving Big 12, etc.).
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But aren’t they announcing their plans on Tuesday? Doesn’t that suggest they’ve already made up their minds? And if they’re exploring other options, why make their decision before Oklahoma and Texas aTm do?
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I guess I shouldn’t try to make sense of it all, when all we have to go on are rumors from a million sources.
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When expansion talk started I started thinking of options just like any fan. I thought about which schools would look great on the football schedule. Thanks to Frank’s urging to “Think like a University president”, I have taken a much different view. Some of my changed attitude is certainly reinforced by the Wisconsin state motto, “Forward”. The long-term view of the role of universities has shaped my view more and more as these discussions proceed. Where would you like to see our universities go in the next 50-100 years?
This country has largely thrived because of the tremendous resources we have but that advantage is slipping as we look to a challenging future. Another great strength of this country comes from the higher education systems we have in place. Collectively the education, research, and innovation provided by our great universities have played a tremendous role in making this country strong. Take a look at the Academic Rankings of World Universities. Seventeen of the the top twenty institutions in the world are in the US. Thirty-six of the top 50 are from the US.
During the past generation our graduate schools have been flooded by international students. With lessons learned these students have gone home and built their own higher education programs. Can we maintain our position in a global economy?
I wonder if we can. I recently stumbled on another university ranking solely based on web traffic algorithms.
http://www.4icu.org/top200/
I have no way of judging the validity of this analysis. But it must be acknowledged the exchange and advancement of knowledge in a web-connected world will be a tremendously important factor for our future. By these rankings the US still is strong. Nine US institutions are in the top twenty. Eighteen US institutions appear in the top 50. But look at the makeup of the rest of that list. China has 5 in the top 20 on this listing. China doesn’t have a single institution in the top 200 on the ARWU listings. And that may be true for a long time to come. China is not exactly known for sharing its knowledge with the world. They may gladly keep it to themselves while we continue to be complacent.
The addition of Nebraska to the Big Ten has been met by nearly universal acceptance in these parts. The few naysayers I have heard say they are a bad fit usually say “Nebraska is not Midwest. Nebraska is the Plains!” These same people may still think Penn St. is a poor fit because they are “too Eastern”. Say what??? It is a pretty weak argument if you have to pull out a new map for your Lincoln road trip when such an alliance may strengthen all universities involved.
This same provincialism enters into so many of these arguments. Knute Rockne did try to get Notre Dame into the Big Ten, and yes I know they were rebuffed, and yes, anti-Catholic prejudices were probably a factor. Notre Dame has had success for generations and developed traditions and takes pride in its independence. I understand all of those arguments. But what if the university leadership of both Notre Dame and the Big Ten determine it is in the best interests of all to unite for the future. Look Forward. Not back. I would certainly hope resentments and differences that arose from a very different time could be set aside. The people who set Notre Dame and the Big Ten on separate paths have been dead for a long time!
And please, please, please… do not even start to tell me some universities are a poor fit largely based on dividing lines established 150 years ago. Forward! Look forward. There is much more than football at stake.
Yes. I am hopelessly naive. I can’t help it. 🙂
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Notre Dame’s entire business plan is based on looking back.
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I am a Maryland student and a loyal supporter for all our sports teams. I am not overly excited about the prospect of going to the B10. The B10 is very midwest to me and I think of Maryland as an east coast school. Even PSU is more midwest to me than east coast – culturally speaking, of course. However, if the ACC is at risk of becoming a second tier conference, then we’d have to go. The revenue that we would receive as a member of the B10 would be immense and I’d rather be sitting in a solid conference than in no-man’s land. I don’t want us to join the SEC at all.
We are a basketball school, so a lot of Maryland alums/students/fans are worried about the level of play in B10 basketball – there’s a perceived huge difference between the best B10 basketball teams and the worst B10 basketball teams. I don’t think that the Maryland community would get excited for B10 conference games at Comcast the way we do for ACC conference games. There’s a buzz on campus for days in anticipation of conference games – not just Duke/UNC, but Clemson, Georgia Tech, NC State. People were waiting outside the doors five hours before the Clemson, GT, and UVA games – and even longer for the Duke and UNC games. I could see us getting excited for MSU (especially with what happened this past NCAA tournament… ouch) or OSU, but not for Iowa, NWU, Indiana, Michigan, or PSU. This is just my opinion but I think a lot of other Maryland fans feel the same way based on comments I have heard and read.
For football, we’d be a bottom feeder (hopefully after a few years we’d get better). Many of you only remember this past season and our historically low 2-10 record, but we were ranked 10th in the nation at the end of the 2001 season. All I can say about our football program (and sports in general) is that a lot of things can change in a decade. Who knows what the skill level and success of our football team will be five years from now. Again, it would be hard to get excited about a football game when you know you have zero chance at winning (like this past season’s game vs VT… which I still went to even though I knew we were going to lose. Like I said, I’m a loyal fan). The B10 alumni that live in the DMV area would be excited to have the opportunity to watch their teams play in person instead of watching on the TV.
I see the pros and cons of staying and leaving. I just want all this expansion speculation to be over so the dust can settle and we can focus on becoming a stronger university. We’re going through many changes already as we search for a new university president.
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Pac10 version of TX negotiations.
http://www.denverpost.com/colleges/ci_15295447
Suggests TX & Pac10 talking for “months”:
“In the 11th hour, after months of telling us they understand the TV rights, they’re trying to pull a fast one on the verge of sealing the deal in the regents meeting,” the source said. “They want a better revenue sharing deal and their own network. Those were points of principle. (The Pac-10) wants to treat everyone fairly. It’s been that way for months of discussions.”
The Longhorn Network became the sticking point. Various college experts say no major TV network seeking a conference package would allow one of the most marketable schools to have its own network. The competition would greatly reduce the marketability.
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